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Raise the DoT Standard
NobleX35
✭✭✭✭
Dots play an integral role in all settings of the game. One of the primary functions of dots in pvp is to provide additional pressure between burst combinations, and act as a counter to HoTs. Additionally dots help counter the tank meta through additional pressure so that the targets health can reach a sufficient level where a burst combo can more reliably finish off the target.
We are currently experiencing one of the worst tank metas in the history of the game, and one of the primary reasons is due to the fact that dots simply do not provide enough pressure at the moment. This becomes obviously apparent when many builds for certain dot based classes (stamdk) don’t even to bother investing many points (if any) into dot damage.
The base standard for dot damage created in scalebreaker was 2.5x damage of a traditional spammable. The issue is that 2.5x was clearly too high, so the standard was nerfed down to 1.33x (iirc). 1.33x damage was obviously too low, so the standard was buffed to 1.5x; however, even 1.5x is still too low.
With all that said, raising the dot standard to 1.75x might due the trick and bring dots back to a reasonable level where they can better perform their intended function.
Edited by NobleX35 on January 29, 2020 9:20PM We are currently experiencing one of the worst tank metas in the history of the game, and one of the primary reasons is due to the fact that dots simply do not provide enough pressure at the moment. This becomes obviously apparent when many builds for certain dot based classes (stamdk) don’t even to bother investing many points (if any) into dot damage.
The base standard for dot damage created in scalebreaker was 2.5x damage of a traditional spammable. The issue is that 2.5x was clearly too high, so the standard was nerfed down to 1.33x (iirc). 1.33x damage was obviously too low, so the standard was buffed to 1.5x; however, even 1.5x is still too low.
With all that said, raising the dot standard to 1.75x might due the trick and bring dots back to a reasonable level where they can better perform their intended function.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war."
33
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TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm a pressure player, I want my rapids/Bloodthirst buffed, bleeds back to ignoring resistance.12 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭I agree, though I just recently came back to the game I have followed all changes and atm have zero incentive to slot any sort of dot abilities. The damage is just not comparable while they are prone to purges on top of that.
Ohh and btw, nerf all these ridicoulus hots like rapid and vigor. One big part of your tank meta.0 -
satanio✭✭✭✭They cannot, or otherwise PvE meta will shift into only dots rotations and many would weep.
Here we have it guys, because of oversaturation of dots we cannot have nice dot skills.Edited by satanio on January 29, 2020 10:58PM1 -
Valdek✭✭✭They cannot, or otherwise PvE meta will shift into only dots rotations and many would weep.
Here we have it guys, because of oversaturation of dots we cannot have nice dot skills.
Perhaps a simple solution is to just buff each class single target dot and make sure all classes have a viable one?5 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DoTs dumb down combat. I'd rather them address the tank meta in a way that doesn't further reduce the skill ceiling.8 -
MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭The issue/concern that not a lot of people bring up when they talk about dots is how much load they add to the server. Think how many calculations would be forced onto the server for someone who is stacking 7-10 dots on another player then going into their spammable rotation. Compared to more of a direct damage setup or a timed burst setup where they only have that spammable rotation going or maybe even less for a true timed burst setup. Of course aoe's can rack up a lot of calculations as well especially in zerg v zerg, and of course aoe dots are exponentially worse.
For gameplay purposes if you want to buff dots, how do you balance the zerg v solo gameplay. Just like in the defile meta dots serve the same purpose essentially, they burn down your opponent. What do you do if you are solo against multiple opponents that all decide to just run dot builds, not every class/playstyle will have/run tools to deal with dot stacks. So there are not many counterplay options available in the game as a whole. Not to mention that in almost any group fight now there will almost always be aoe major/minor defile through blastbones. You can see this same suffocation effect whenever we enter a cc meta, like back in murkmire when speed and soft cc immunities were gutted. When all counterplay options were reduced, the combat became really stale and at times playing against it wasn't fun or engaging, it was just tedious and there was almost no winning in those situations.
-One option where I could see buffing dots back to maybe 2.0x would be if dots did not stack, applied through battle spirit. This would let you be able to burn down tanky players in duels/small man but in zerg v zerg there would be a hell of alot less calculations. This also makes teams have to slightly optimize their builds to work together if they want to run similar setups, which can help reduce future metas of everyone running one setup a youtuber said was Bis. For solo players you will also have less of a suffocation effect when a group tries to dog pile you, opening potential rebuttal. Generally I would push to give players a chance to combat any situation, instead of having these 100% chance of lose situations.
by dots not stacking:
2 sources of poison inject wont stack, but poison inject and any other dot will stack.
If the problem with gameplay right now that you see is a tank meta, why is your solution to buff dots instead of burst damage or timed skills. You could potentially reduce server lag through buffing more skilled burst gameplay instead of having massive zergs with everyone spamming aoe dots/hots at each other. Or like I was saying above, through battlespirit make dots not stack and be able to buff them with little negative drawbacks to the combat. For zos and ease of tuning, if they could find that sweet spot easier, they would be able to just look at balancing all damage as a whole instead of doing this wishy washy dot meta....tank meta....burst meta....tank meta...dot meta.1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If 2.5X was too high and 1.5X was too low, I’d try 2.0X. If that’s too high then go with 1.75X next.
Something should definitely be done. The anti-DoT meta right now is just nonsense. For example, on Magcro (the class that gets 15% more passive DoT damage) in PVE, casting Entropy (the DoT that gets 20% more duration and damage than the standard, as well as 2% Magicka and recovery for slotting, and is very cheap to cast) is a DPS loss over just using more spammables.
Edited by WrathOfInnos on January 29, 2020 11:32PM12 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think if anything, only class DoTs should be buffed at first. The impact should be measured and adjusted for, before adjusting any others.
Playing since beta...5 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The issue/concern that not a lot of people bring up when they talk about dots is how much load they add to the server. Think how many calculations would be forced onto the server for someone who is stacking 7-10 dots on another player then going into their spammable rotation. Compared to more of a direct damage setup or a timed burst setup where they only have that spammable rotation going or maybe even less for a true timed burst setup. Of course aoe's can rack up a lot of calculations as well especially in zerg v zerg, and of course aoe dots are exponentially worse.
It should be the same regarding HoTs, but HoTs are here, there and everywhere. (yup, I like The Originals too)Edited by Xvorg on January 29, 2020 11:49PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭The issue/concern that not a lot of people bring up when they talk about dots is how much load they add to the server. Think how many calculations would be forced onto the server for someone who is stacking 7-10 dots on another player then going into their spammable rotation. Compared to more of a direct damage setup or a timed burst setup where they only have that spammable rotation going or maybe even less for a true timed burst setup. Of course aoe's can rack up a lot of calculations as well especially in zerg v zerg, and of course aoe dots are exponentially worse.
For gameplay purposes if you want to buff dots, how do you balance the zerg v solo gameplay. Just like in the defile meta dots serve the same purpose essentially, they burn down your opponent. What do you do if you are solo against multiple opponents that all decide to just run dot builds, not every class/playstyle will have/run tools to deal with dot stacks. So there are not many counterplay options available in the game as a whole. Not to mention that in almost any group fight now there will almost always be aoe major/minor defile through blastbones. You can see this same suffocation effect whenever we enter a cc meta, like back in murkmire when speed and soft cc immunities were gutted. When all counterplay options were reduced, the combat became really stale and at times playing against it wasn't fun or engaging, it was just tedious and there was almost no winning in those situations.
-One option where I could see buffing dots back to maybe 2.0x would be if dots did not stack, applied through battle spirit. This would let you be able to burn down tanky players in duels/small man but in zerg v zerg there would be a hell of alot less calculations. This also makes teams have to slightly optimize their builds to work together if they want to run similar setups, which can help reduce future metas of everyone running one setup a youtuber said was Bis. For solo players you will also have less of a suffocation effect when a group tries to dog pile you, opening potential rebuttal. Generally I would push to give players a chance to combat any situation, instead of having these 100% chance of lose situations.
by dots not stacking:
2 sources of poison inject wont stack, but poison inject and any other dot will stack.
If the problem with gameplay right now that you see is a tank meta, why is your solution to buff dots instead of burst damage or timed skills. You could potentially reduce server lag through buffing more skilled burst gameplay instead of having massive zergs with everyone spamming aoe dots/hots at each other. Or like I was saying above, through battlespirit make dots not stack and be able to buff them with little negative drawbacks to the combat. For zos and ease of tuning, if they could find that sweet spot easier, they would be able to just look at balancing all damage as a whole instead of doing this wishy washy dot meta....tank meta....burst meta....tank meta...dot meta.
1. Did you read my post? Your counter arguments sound as if you didn’t read my explanation as to why I think dots should be buffed. DoTs assist with applying pressure between burst combos. They help counter HoTs and the tank meta.
2. Players dieing is probably one of the best ways to improve server performance. Players that die to not cast skills which leads to less over all calculations.
3. I didnt ask for dots to be raised to 2.0x. I asked that they be raised to 1.75x, which would be roughly a 16-17% increase in DoT damage.
4. In a lot of cases, burst damage is already pretty high. Most engagements essentially come down to who can kill the opposing target with their burst combo. The result of sustained pressure being as weak as it is at the moment yields the current tank meta we are in where players take forever to kill because the outcome depends on a perfect burst combo, or neither party dies.
Bonus: I have already voices my issue with the onslaught nerf in another thread, which I think is a terrible idea given the current state of the game. Additionally, I was against the dizzy double nerf that also lowered burst damage. Anything that nerfs burst damage or any damage in general at the moment is a bad idea.Edited by NobleX35 on January 30, 2020 12:02AM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Strider__Roshin wrote: »DoTs dumb down combat. I'd rather them address the tank meta in a way that doesn't further reduce the skill ceiling.
The skill ceiling has already met the floor with Fury builds lining burst. It's the easiest thing to do in the game.2 -
MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭@Xvorg
Yeah hots provide similar calculation issues as dots do, and they have another level added on to them since they cant be purged away halfway through them. If zos was to make them not stack, then a lot of people might feel useless in group play. For pvp sake, one idea that has been talked about before would be to limit healing to those in your group. This would cut out heals when you came across random players, but alleviate a large chunk of server calculations. Possibly it could just be a mechanic that applies when you become a large group, after 4 players are in your group healing could be restricted to only group members. Again in a perfect world you could heal anyone you come across, but if we can find ways to maximize server performance without cutting out any type of player than we should.
@NobleX35
1. I did read your post, and I agree those are valid reasons to buff dots. What I was trying to explain to everyone is to consider how it would be possible to dig into the tank meta like you want, without hurting server performance or just shifting the scale entirely in one direction again. Besides dots wont hurt just tanks, only a mechanic like bleeds being directly buffed would reduce tanks without hurting squishier builds.
2. It isn't very intuitive to have players no longer able to play as your solution to making the game playable again. If we can make combat more fun and engaging while helping performance and at the same time not hurting anyone's playstyle I feel like it would be the best route to take.
3. I said raise dots to ~2.0x since if dots no longer stacked in large group play there would be a large damage loss(but nobody would be able to tell the difference), and for solo/small man players this would just feel like a buff. Players who do not like to run dots will also feel like it is a buff since they wont be overloaded with something they most likely can't counterplay.
4. Yeah this topic is also talked about a lot with the cast times on ultimates. General burst play for example would have a player stun>ult>execute rotation.
-The attacker has to line up buffs and burst with this combo, how well inputs are hit makes the burst tighter and more deadly
-The defender has to recognize the buff buildup
> stop the cc and defend or
> react and break cc to counter the incoming burst
Before cast times burst was a pure skill vs skill input timing based system, whoever was better at their rotation or reaction/prediction won. Now with the cast time added, after any cc the defender has a massive window before any threatening burst hits. As both of us would agree, this does not help with the stalemate situation this meta. For the game as a whole it just makes everything feel less fluid and ultimates feel weaker than before.
As for things like onslaught and dizzy, personally I think the old onslaught and dizzy were more fun and were not really complained about as much as they are now. The pen I think was a silly idea that is just too hard for them to balance out , since it will always be changing build by build and depends on who you hit. Dizzy is now in a state where they are trying to make it conform to spammable rules, but it never really played like a spammable back in the day.
I'm more for:
-1.2-1.5 sec dizzy cast with more damage and knockback/0.8 sec wrecking gets offbalance (plays into more buff spam)
-Onslaught does single hit and the aoe, returns some amount of ult if killed original target, no pen given no resists0 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »The skill ceiling has already met the floor with Fury builds lining burst. It's the easiest thing to do in the game.
If that's the case, then SnB block healing buries the ceiling underground.Retired until we break the Tank Meta2 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »The skill ceiling has already met the floor with Fury builds lining burst. It's the easiest thing to do in the game.
If that's the case, then SnB block healing buries the ceiling underground.
We've been in upside down world when a Fury build has 30k resistances, 30k+ health and 5-6k weapon damage. It's not like years ago when players actually had to work at it.
I cheese snb block healing, I don't disagree.
Need the cheese for the rat pack that are zergs in Cyrodiil.1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Xvorg
Yeah hots provide similar calculation issues as dots do, and they have another level added on to them since they cant be purged away halfway through them. If zos was to make them not stack, then a lot of people might feel useless in group play. For pvp sake, one idea that has been talked about before would be to limit healing to those in your group. This would cut out heals when you came across random players, but alleviate a large chunk of server calculations. Possibly it could just be a mechanic that applies when you become a large group, after 4 players are in your group healing could be restricted to only group members. Again in a perfect world you could heal anyone you come across, but if we can find ways to maximize server performance without cutting out any type of player than we should.
I don't think healing + dmg calculations are much of a problem in the server. We all know that the anti bot system in Cyro is the main offender regarding lag problems, and that DoTs and HoTs where not an issue during day 1 of ESO... not even during the testing... nevertheless.
If we take calculations alone, there are some other source of maths that you are not considering such as buffs and debuffs. For example, if you drink a magicka pot, on a NB who has siphoning attacks active and that switch backbar to his healing staff to do a full heavy attack, where he has a couple of mages guild skills slotted, then the server is gona do a big chunk of maths to give him the exact number of magicka he has to recover. If, for some reason, that pot has major prophecy and major sorc, and the healing staff a glyph that increases wpn dmg. The number of calculations is going to increase in a exponential way. Not to mention that a full heavy attack with a healing staff gives you major mending (which also affects your Siphoning attacks healing)... and we have not even started to talk about the DoT component on the resto full heavy.
DoTs are the simplest calculation in that escenario.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
If they're running Balorgh and NMA alongside Fury, they're easily over 8k WD buffed. The stat inflation since Summerset has been nuts, and 6-8k WD all too often doesn't even feel like it's enough. Tanky bursty builds have always been around though, remember Viper Tremor? Everyone wore the same 5pc proc set, yet we had better diversity of weapons and tactics.TheBonesXXX wrote: »We've been in upside down world when a Fury build has 30k resistances, 30k+ health and 5-6k weapon damage. It's not like years ago when players actually had to work at it.Retired until we break the Tank Meta2 -
IronWooshu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.
If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IronWooshu wrote: »Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.
If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.
didn't you have a fun time during the over buffed DoT patch? Imho it was the funniest patch since... Shadows of the HistEdited by Xvorg on January 30, 2020 2:16AMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
IronWooshu✭✭✭✭✭
✭IronWooshu wrote: »Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.
If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.
didn't you have a fun time during the over buffed DoT patch? Imho it was the funniest patch since... Shadows of the Hist
The time when everyone played a MagPlar?2 -
MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭@Xvorg That example is only one stat check on a single player with minimal calculation growth. When you have a single dot you go through both players stats+procs+cp procs+set procs every calculation phase the shear amount of checks outweighs nearly anything. It isn't a matter of how mentally hard it is to calculate modifiers, but how many happen and how many need to be changed during a calculation phase. Then you tack on an aoe dot or a dot that ticks faster, and from that one button press someone could be doing 30+ or 2 times the calculations through the server. Stack up a full rotation of 10 dots, there would be another factor. A single stat return calculation wont spiral out of control, where the amount of checks and procs off other players will be immense. Pretty much the same argument will go for healing.
It would be interesting if zos could release server load numbers on different types of damage/healing. I suppose one way to see the "load" by yourself would be to slot an addon for scrolling damage output like ftc, and you will see something like:
a direct damage build will have a few hits per gcd
a dot build will have that same few hits +(5 to 10)dots
a dot build in aoe will have those same few hits + (5 to 10)*#players
How full your screen is would be proportional to the calculation load you are putting on the server.
Then add in two groups of 20 to 30 players and thats up to 60 times the calculations on top of all that
Another test would be to get a large guild of players and go into the dead cp campaign. Have everyone slot cp vs nocp, dot builds vs direct vs aoe, single heals vs aoe heals vs hots, proc sets vs plain stat sets, etc.
Run any bomb build and you will see that hitting 30-40 unbuffed players is enough calculations to make the server stumble. I'm sure the test would atleast give players and zos more info on what is actually happening, and I haven't heard of zos doing this sort of playtest yet.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IronWooshu wrote: »IronWooshu wrote: »Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.
If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.
didn't you have a fun time during the over buffed DoT patch? Imho it was the funniest patch since... Shadows of the Hist
The time when everyone played a MagPlar?
I played mageblade... it's maybe the only patch in years that I used it effectively. Soul trap + entropy + degeneration.
And I had few issues with magplars. Most of the time I ran them out of magicka by putting dots and then using pulseSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Xvorg That example is only one stat check on a single player with minimal calculation growth. When you have a single dot you go through both players stats+procs+cp procs+set procs every calculation phase the shear amount of checks outweighs nearly anything. It isn't a matter of how mentally hard it is to calculate modifiers, but how many happen and how many need to be changed during a calculation phase. Then you tack on an aoe dot or a dot that ticks faster, and from that one button press someone could be doing 30+ or 2 times the calculations through the server. Stack up a full rotation of 10 dots, there would be another factor. A single stat return calculation wont spiral out of control, where the amount of checks and procs off other players will be immense. Pretty much the same argument will go for healing.
It would be interesting if zos could release server load numbers on different types of damage/healing. I suppose one way to see the "load" by yourself would be to slot an addon for scrolling damage output like ftc, and you will see something like:
a direct damage build will have a few hits per gcd
a dot build will have that same few hits +(5 to 10)dots
a dot build in aoe will have those same few hits + (5 to 10)*#players
How full your screen is would be proportional to the calculation load you are putting on the server.
Then add in two groups of 20 to 30 players and thats up to 60 times the calculations on top of all that
Another test would be to get a large guild of players and go into the dead cp campaign. Have everyone slot cp vs nocp, dot builds vs direct vs aoe, single heals vs aoe heals vs hots, proc sets vs plain stat sets, etc.
Run any bomb build and you will see that hitting 30-40 unbuffed players is enough calculations to make the server stumble. I'm sure the test would atleast give players and zos more info on what is actually happening, and I haven't heard of zos doing this sort of playtest yet.
I think they have already done the calculations
In any case, if it was a calculations problem, there would be no streamers with pings under 100 and without desync. In fact, one of the secrets of Cody when he played here was his stable connection even in 1vXSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Xvorg
Well I mean based on where you live and your provider you can lower your ping, but the server will always act like a bottle neck for everyone.
The thing is that there are some guys running while we all are stuck in a poop river... why?
If the desync were for everyone, I'm sure you are right, but not everyone suffers it. There are even videos of a couple duelling in which one has desync, while the other has 0 problem.
Then the question, why do the server prioritize one over the other? That's a question we have asked during the last 5 years, but ZoS seems to have no answer.
By the way, one of the skills that causes more problems with health desync is Snipe, and that one has no doT associated (except for maybe lethal arrow, but the desync occures before the arrow lands, before the DoT is applied)
If the problem was DoTs and DoTs calculation, whith the DoT nerfs the server should have become more stable. Currently, most Cyro is running high burst skills, and the lag is almost the same as during the DoT pactch...
To me, the biggest offender is the anti bots tool. In fact lag started after it was implemented (just because a lazy idiot thought it was a good idea to go to cyro with bots)Edited by Xvorg on January 30, 2020 2:59AMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭IronWooshu wrote: »Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.
If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.
DoTs are currently weaker than they were in Elsweyr. A 1.75x multiple would mostly return them to a similar state they were in pre-massive buff.Edited by NobleX35 on January 30, 2020 3:15AM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IronWooshu wrote: »Classes with burst damage shouldnt get increased DoT's, no way should they be able to do insane burst while applying constant pressure so IMO DoT's are fine as they are. They are already more buffed more than they were before.
If anyone remembers they were over buffed then appropriately nerfed but still stronger then before they were over buffed.
DoTs are currently weaker than they were in Elsweyr. A 1.75x multiple would mostly return them to a similar state they were in pre-massive buff.
Yeah pretty much this. The damage of dots now are as weak as carve was before all the changes and no one used that ability and they still don't today.
Yet no one complained back then. Dots are a shell of their former selves and have made it easier than ever before to just slot abilities for passives like inner light or camo hunter that provide much better overall DPS by buffing all your damage.
So anyone saying this is good for the game, please explain why killing slots on your bar is any more fun then actually using dots.
1.75-1.8 is where I'd like them to be.
Also, fix Soul Splitting Trap, Caltrops and Carve which were all forgotten with the new standards of 1.5x damage, 1.33x cost.PC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit1 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
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If they're running Balorgh and NMA alongside Fury, they're easily over 8k WD buffed. The stat inflation since Summerset has been nuts, and 6-8k WD all too often doesn't even feel like it's enough. Tanky bursty builds have always been around though, remember Viper Tremor? Everyone wore the same 5pc proc set, yet we had better diversity of weapons and tactics.TheBonesXXX wrote: »We've been in upside down world when a Fury build has 30k resistances, 30k+ health and 5-6k weapon damage. It's not like years ago when players actually had to work at it.
Aye, I do. It still took more skill back then. There's always been a design flaw with ZOS, but this meta is the worse it's been.
Pressure builds hardcounter tanky burst builds, that's why I'm constantly harping on making rapid strikes/Bloodthirst usable in PvP. Two years ago I had a build that just shredded people, death by a thousand cuts. It was just relentless.
But Idk what this nuttery is now.
Oooooof
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NobleX35✭✭✭✭@Xvorg
Yeah hots provide similar calculation issues as dots do, and they have another level added on to them since they cant be purged away halfway through them. If zos was to make them not stack, then a lot of people might feel useless in group play. For pvp sake, one idea that has been talked about before would be to limit healing to those in your group. This would cut out heals when you came across random players, but alleviate a large chunk of server calculations. Possibly it could just be a mechanic that applies when you become a large group, after 4 players are in your group healing could be restricted to only group members. Again in a perfect world you could heal anyone you come across, but if we can find ways to maximize server performance without cutting out any type of player than we should.
@NobleX35
1. I did read your post, and I agree those are valid reasons to buff dots. What I was trying to explain to everyone is to consider how it would be possible to dig into the tank meta like you want, without hurting server performance or just shifting the scale entirely in one direction again. Besides dots wont hurt just tanks, only a mechanic like bleeds being directly buffed would reduce tanks without hurting squishier builds.
2. It isn't very intuitive to have players no longer able to play as your solution to making the game playable again. If we can make combat more fun and engaging while helping performance and at the same time not hurting anyone's playstyle I feel like it would be the best route to take.
3. I said raise dots to ~2.0x since if dots no longer stacked in large group play there would be a large damage loss(but nobody would be able to tell the difference), and for solo/small man players this would just feel like a buff. Players who do not like to run dots will also feel like it is a buff since they wont be overloaded with something they most likely can't counterplay.
4. Yeah this topic is also talked about a lot with the cast times on ultimates. General burst play for example would have a player stun>ult>execute rotation.
-The attacker has to line up buffs and burst with this combo, how well inputs are hit makes the burst tighter and more deadly
-The defender has to recognize the buff buildup
> stop the cc and defend or
> react and break cc to counter the incoming burst
Before cast times burst was a pure skill vs skill input timing based system, whoever was better at their rotation or reaction/prediction won. Now with the cast time added, after any cc the defender has a massive window before any threatening burst hits. As both of us would agree, this does not help with the stalemate situation this meta. For the game as a whole it just makes everything feel less fluid and ultimates feel weaker than before.
As for things like onslaught and dizzy, personally I think the old onslaught and dizzy were more fun and were not really complained about as much as they are now. The pen I think was a silly idea that is just too hard for them to balance out , since it will always be changing build by build and depends on who you hit. Dizzy is now in a state where they are trying to make it conform to spammable rules, but it never really played like a spammable back in the day.
I'm more for:
-1.2-1.5 sec dizzy cast with more damage and knockback/0.8 sec wrecking gets offbalance (plays into more buff spam)
-Onslaught does single hit and the aoe, returns some amount of ult if killed original target, no pen given no resists
1. Buffing dots to a 1.75x multiple would not significantly change the meta. Dots are currently weaker than they were in Elsweyr (a point in which they were fine), and need to be brought back to a similar level. It would simply make dots actually useful again, and perform their intended function more efficiently. If dots were buffed back to a 2.5x multiple, then I would agree the meta would significantly change and dots would reign supreme once again. I've seen you mention stacking 10+ dots, and that would not be the new meta with a slight buff. High dot builds would be fairly niche like they were pre-scalebreaker.
2. A slight buff to dots would make combat more fun and engaging because it would add the necessary pressure between burst combos, help combat over healing, and address the tank meta. Such a buff would not hurt anyone's playstyle.
3. Interesting idea, not opposed. Anything that buffs smallscale and nerfs zergs is a win. Although, such a change could also still make zergs stronger in some aspects. If you're running a small man, then not being able to stack pressure on a target could lead to over healing from the enemy team. Devil's advocate.
4. Agreed cast times are terrible and need to be removed.
I don't mind onslaught in it's current form. Even when I play on builds that don't use it, and I have to fight against it. It's a strong ultimate, and other ultimates (dawnbreaker, etc.) should more closely match it's power level rather than nerf onslaught. 1.2sec cast time is really long, would allow for too much counter play. Original dizzy cast time was 1 sec. At the end of the day, the double nerf on dizzy was a huge issue. They removed the stun and nerfed the damage by 16%. If they were going to nerf it, then it should have been one or the other, but not both."Only the dead have seen the end of war."0
