Templars should not benefit from being Vampires

UltraMex

Uh....this may be an RPG but it's still an MMO so certain things can't be done for your "Lore", and what if i want to be a Vampire Templar? Are you forbidding me because i will break your "Lore"? Jesus. Wait till Bethesda makes a Singleplayer RPG

xeNNNNN

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being a vampire as a Templar. This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value ESO as a RPG. And I play both PVP and PVE.

It would render templar vampires non viable on purpose and permanently and would take away from gameplay as a whole.....I appreciate it being lore reasons but "power fantasy" can also go in the other direction you know that right?

On paper sounds interesting, in practice it would just be annoying for templar players.

KingofAnnwn

Even the righteous can be corrupted

essi2

Sorcs shouldn't be allowed to be Vampires either then, seeing as they all get their Daedric abilities from Meridia.

WillhelmBlack

Templars benefit from anything, even nerfs.

Reverb

Ratzkifal wrote: »

OP has a point. No divine or Tribune or even Meridia would lend a vampire their magic.

However, there is also simple Restoration, which doesn't rely on divine miracles, so it's not exclusive to them. Aedric spear and some of the healing spells would probably go away if we were being realistic to that degree but I don't think we need to go that far. Renaming the skills to be more generic and less tied towards the divine would probably already be enough.

Aedric Spear would then probably be "Sunlight Spear" or something.

Cite your source. Find me one Elder Scrolls lore reference to Julianos caring if I am a Vampire. Or Zenithar. Or Dibella.

The argument of wether or not Molag Bal has claim to your soul by virtue of vampirism would be a good discussion, but does not dictate an invidual Templar’s relationship to any of the Divines while on Mundus.

Lisutaris

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being a vampire as a Templar. This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value ESO as a RPG. And I play both PVP and PVE.

No nerf sorc, delete nb thread.
Imagine a thumbs down, because of forum history aka lore reasons.

akdave0

The only way you’d see me as a Vamplar is if I was bitten by one of those beasts. Then I would be purged of such evil.

UppGRAYxDD

Fiddle-sticks! My Templars are valued members of the Vigil of Stendarr who use their unholy curse to battle the undead for the glory of Nirn.... how’s that not RPG lore friendly...

Mitrenga

Danikat

Reverb wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

OP has a point. No divine or Tribune or even Meridia would lend a vampire their magic.

However, there is also simple Restoration, which doesn't rely on divine miracles, so it's not exclusive to them. Aedric spear and some of the healing spells would probably go away if we were being realistic to that degree but I don't think we need to go that far. Renaming the skills to be more generic and less tied towards the divine would probably already be enough.

Aedric Spear would then probably be "Sunlight Spear" or something.

Cite your source. Find me one Elder Scrolls lore reference to Julianos caring if I am a Vampire. Or Zenithar. Or Dibella.

The argument of wether or not Molag Bal has claim to your soul by virtue of vampirism would be a good discussion, but does not dictate an invidual Templar’s relationship to any of the Divines while on Mundus.

That's one thing I do find odd. I mean, when my vampire was turned Molag Bal already had his soul, so from his perspective he got vampirism for free. But if you do it differently it could be a bit odd, especially if you do the main story first and got to all that hassle to get your soul back, only to return it to Molag Bal when you become a vampire.

It's even stranger for werewolves - if you're turned before finishing the main story are you effectively giving Hircine an I.O.U. - since you're promising a soul which is currently owned by another daedric prince. I can't imagine that would be an acceptable bargin. (Except maybe for Sheogorath, because Molag Bal, or at least his dremora, seem very into procedure and bureaucracy and I bet he could cause some real trouble arguing over who is the rightful owner.)

MEBengalsFan2001

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being a vampire as a Templar. This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value ESO as a RPG. And I play both PVP and PVE.

I can see your point of view but as a MMO lore is usually a way to restrict builds that maybe found in a standard game. From a ESO lore point you could be a templar that just was unlucky and got bit. Than took that as a blessing to further your rightous view by having the extra strength to go up against those that cursed you and will get it removed down the road once you rid the world of this evil.

As someone who is a Vampire Templar I don't feed because that is evil. I live with the curse and deal with the pain of being burned on a regular basis.

Also doing this would remove ESO saying of play the way you want to.

heaven13 wrote: »

Vampires and werewolves can't be part of the Fighter's Guild. Necromancers can't be in Fighter's Guild or a member of the Psijic Order. Dragonknights can't be vampires. Once you complete the main quest and get your soul back, you can no longer use wayshrines.

Sound silly yet?

This is why game developers for most MMO have much less or no restriction on skill lines when there is lore for a game such as ESO.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

You can't block an entire class from a skill line like that.

There should be even more drawbacks if you want to be a vampire. Vampire's Bane sits there as a reminder of what the class is supposed to be about.

You could rename that to anything else. Indeed, the other morph is called Reflective Light which has nothing to do with vampires at all. The base skill is called Sun Fire and both it and the morphs revolve around sun/radiant heat but since the strain of vampirism in ESO isn't affected by the sun, it's a non-issue.

If you don't want your templar to be a vamp, don't be one. Mine isn't.

Templars are based on Clerics.

"The cleric is a healer, usually a priest and a holy warrior, originally modeled on or inspired by the Military Orders... Most clerics have powers to heal wounds, protect their allies and sometimes resurrect the dead, as well as summon, manipulate and banish undead." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric_(character_class)

It's no mere coincidence that Vampire's Bane is named the way it is. Templars should not be vampires. That's why I say, there should be additional drawbacks to playing a Templar as a Vampire.

If Templar is based on clerics I see no issue with Templars being Vampires as I played an DM D&D for years and most campaign leaders were clerics, evil ones, ones that worshipped the undead such as Vampires or were Vampires themselves.



There is not point in discussing this further, Templars can be vampire because its in the game and even lore wise it makes sense.

Ryath_Waylander

Ghettokid wrote: »

Orcs should not benefit from being Orcs

Orcs should not benefit from being Orcs. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being an Orc as an Orc This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value Orc as an Orc. And I play both Orc and Orc.

As far as I know, Orc passives are still broken in No CP pvp, so you have a winner there. Orc not benefiting from being an Orc

heaven13

Danikat wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

OP has a point. No divine or Tribune or even Meridia would lend a vampire their magic.

However, there is also simple Restoration, which doesn't rely on divine miracles, so it's not exclusive to them. Aedric spear and some of the healing spells would probably go away if we were being realistic to that degree but I don't think we need to go that far. Renaming the skills to be more generic and less tied towards the divine would probably already be enough.

Aedric Spear would then probably be "Sunlight Spear" or something.

Cite your source. Find me one Elder Scrolls lore reference to Julianos caring if I am a Vampire. Or Zenithar. Or Dibella.

The argument of wether or not Molag Bal has claim to your soul by virtue of vampirism would be a good discussion, but does not dictate an invidual Templar’s relationship to any of the Divines while on Mundus.

That's one thing I do find odd. I mean, when my vampire was turned Molag Bal already had his soul, so from his perspective he got vampirism for free. But if you do it differently it could be a bit odd, especially if you do the main story first and got to all that hassle to get your soul back, only to return it to Molag Bal when you become a vampire.

It's even stranger for werewolves - if you're turned before finishing the main story are you effectively giving Hircine an I.O.U. - since you're promising a soul which is currently owned by another daedric prince. I can't imagine that would be an acceptable bargin. (Except maybe for Sheogorath, because Molag Bal, or at least his dremora, seem very into procedure and bureaucracy and I bet he could cause some real trouble arguing over who is the rightful owner.)

Molag Bal in a suit, in a courtroom, with Hircine on the other side (tiny jacked Hircine from MoS for extra giggles) arguing over proper ownership of one mortal soul with Judy Judy presiding. I can't stop laughing.

max_only

Ghettokid wrote: »

Orcs should not benefit from being Orcs

Orcs should not benefit from being Orcs. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being an Orc as an Orc This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value Orc as an Orc. And I play both Orc and Orc.

Thank orc, some sense.

Oakenaxe

heaven13 wrote: »

Vampires and werewolves can't be part of the Fighter's Guild. Necromancers can't be in Fighter's Guild or a member of the Psijic Order. Dragonknights can't be vampires. Once you complete the main quest and get your soul back, you can no longer use wayshrines.

Sound silly yet?

It actually sounds pretty interesting in my opinion. Except for the wayshrine part lol

LuxLunae

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being a vampire as a Templar. This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value ESO as a RPG. And I play both PVP and PVE.

That's why I am a WW....

Now lets talk about that dumb repentance... gives 10% stam recov...

That is redundant now... (can't remember if it it gives 10% mag recov and spell recov as well...)...since we have 2hander giving 10% stam recov...

Now I can go on to DK and get that 10% recov from the sword and then another 10%+ recov from the green dragon blood...or whatever...

while templar is looking stupid with that same stam recov buff that doesn't do anything...

Now I know what you are saying "you get to get stam back from rotting corpeses"

You have to kill em first....

Also... that's why I play DK over templar any day...(STAMINA) Yall keep saying templar OP but DK has so much better passives...

Oh yeah.. and just for reference.. Don't ever WASTE TIME LOWERING SKILL COST!!!... I FOUND OUT YOU SHOULD INCREASE RECOVS!!! ITS BETTER!!! ALWAYS IMO!!!

I had a redguard templar with all sorts of reductions on... and 1.6k stam recov ( 1.9k buffed)

and

a orc DK with no reductions 1.6k stam (2.4k buffed)

And guess what had the better sustain? HINT: NOT THE REDGUARD LOLOLOOLOL...

However DK does have the resource back when i do a ulti so....


DK will always be > Templar...

MajBludd

So dont make your templar a vampire but dont try to tell others how they should play. Simple.

Kahnak

One could argue that Power Fantasy is a reason to allow Templars to be vampires.

Thevampirenight

Like I mentioned is this isn't D&d they have on purpose moved away from D&D Tropes.
That vampires can't be holy paladins they can't be good aligned. They are reanimated corpses. Vampires in Elder scrolls are not the same as vampires in D&D and have alignment variations.
I have listed several vampires down below and where they might fall under the D&d alignments on the various vampires encountered I didn't list all of them. Some might not be the correct alignment per say but what I think they would fall under. These are just examples.

House Ravenwatch is the most notable example of good aligned vampires. In fact the House would be Lawful Good in terms of code of conduct but maybe neutral in the affairs of the region. Lawful in that they have a code of conduit and good in the way they conduct themselves. Lawful good is described as this. A lawful good character typically acts with compassion and always with honor and a sense of duty, though will often regret taking any action they fear would violate their code; even if they recognize such action as being good. Such characters include righteous knights, paladins, and most dwarves. Lawful good creatures include the noble golden dragons.
Now here is what it says on the Uesp about how House Ravenwatch Operates.

House Ravenwatch was led by Count Verandis Ravenwatch, an Altmer pureblood vampire, who had been turned directly by Molag Bal. The house's base of operations was Ravenwatch Castle in Rivenspire, just above the town of Crestshade.[1]

Members of the house lived by a code put in place by Count Verandis. It involved concepts of honor and vigilance, noble spirit and restraint. Their primary goal was to use their powers with responsibility, to help others. They were only allowed to feed on willing servants, never to excess, or on outlaws like bandits or cultists. They regularly trained to keep their vampiric urge to kill in control.][2] The House was known to accept vampires who were willing to follow Verandis' code into their ranks.[1] They also did historical research.[3][4]
I bolded areas is what makes the group fall under the Lawful Good Alignment.

As for members themselves their alignments vary.
Count Verandis Ravenwatch- Very smart and scholarly and is the reason for how the Group Operates. But he is one that I believe given his dirrect connection to Molag Bal has a past he really regrets. Unlike Harkon who is unrepentent. I think he is trying to redeem himself. Even to the point that he plays the role of a martyr at the end. Its likely he was more evil back in the day. Alignment-Lawful Good-Neutral Good but given his past maybe more Lawful Neutral Or Neutral. Hes very caring about his friends and those he loves and his getting involved to much in the mortal affairs of his friends is what blinded him to what was happening.
Adusa-daro-Lawful Good. Reason is she is very dedicated to not only following the Code of Conduct put into place by Count Verandis but does not break it period she is dedicated to it to the core. Going by the Melina Cassel.
Gwendis- Though she has a chaotic side that prevents her from being Lawful Good. I also think she is trying to live up to the Counts expectations and has a good heart. For this reason she would be possibly Neutral Good.
Melina Cassel- Going by her correspondences, seems to have a more chaotic streak but also has a good heart. For this reason she would be chaotic good.
Captain Janeve- If you spare her given her dedication to the service to Rivenspire and her House. The good of the country comes before Morality likely for her and loyalty I believe would be strongly part of who she is. For this reason I'd say she would be Lawful Neutral in Alignment both as a Vampire and before being a vampire.
Heloise Menoit- Though her transformation into a vampire made her kill some innocent people. She was horrified by what she became and wanted to run off so she wouldn't hurt anyone else. Given her dedication to healing others I think she was the most effected by the Transformation. But at the end if you spared her life she joins House Ravenwatch and Verandis took her in. Because of who she is and her dedication to healing others I would list her as Neutral Good.
Other vampires as well

Baron Wylon Montclair- going by the Rivenspire storyline even when he was mortal he seemed to have that darkness or anger or vengeful streak about him. Mainly over the condition of his wife. He seemed to be more selfish and possessive. A darkness that likely what bound him to the Lightless remnant and not Count Verandis even though he was a vampire and his condition helped corrupt it further it likely couldn't attach to Verandis because he was more Light even though Dark and had full control of his darkness and was more selfless.Making him the polar opposite of Baron Wyron Montcliar. The Remnant turned the Baron into a vampire and he turned his daughter and began his campaign of terror along with trying to take over all of Rivenspire. What makes him lawful evil is his leadership of his house plus hes more of a Vengeful Tyrant type of personality. Being both Vengeful and Possesive the Remnant Enhanced his darkness making him power hungry and he didn't care who got hurt he just wanted to rule as King and also get Revenge on Verandis his former friend.

Lady Lleraya Montclair - Either turned by the Lightless remnant or her own father. She seemed to be embody the type of personality that was more out to corrupt and was the main driving force behind her Fathers schemes. A Seducer that seduced men and women down the road of no return corrupting good folk along the way and enslaving and turning many into Blood fiends along the way. Not caring who gets hurt at all. Because of her succubus like Qualities. She would be Chaotic evil more out for herself then she is for any rules and she causes corruption of morals destroying folk along the way.

Valeric- he is the good aligned choice for the quest you have to do if you want to complete the main East March questline. Unlike his father he opposes his ways and his ways seem to be more about not feeding on innocent people and controling the bloodlust but I think his ways would be more like feeding off animals instead of people. Because he opposes what his father is trying to do and also the way he and his people operate. I'd say he would have a more Chaotic Good personality. Willing to do the right thing even if it means having to destroy his own father.

Majorn the Ancient- He is the reason the area is infested with Blood fiends. Not only is his ways more destructive to the people that travel the roads. He also without care creates blood fiends and then considers his sons ways more dangerous. He might be more Lawful but given what he is doing, I'd say he'd be more Either Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil. Siding with him is the Evil aligned quest option for the East March questline and for good reason.

Ilmindil the Incendiary- Oh this one is very interesting, hes a member of undaunted and seems to be l the type of person you don't want to hand a lighter or some matches to and some gasoline. Reason why is he is obsessed with fire. But hates fire he can't control. He also seems to be a little bit Egotistical. But I don't think hes evil he just wants to burn things with fire. For this reason he might be Chaotic Neutral In Alignment. This is one of the things he says. That might back that up. Look, just buy something so that I can leave. There's adventuring to be had, fire to be setting. On things other than me."

Virgar the Red- I don't know what her alignment would be exactly. But she is very protective and caring about the vampires in the orchard wanting to free her children from Molag Bal. I would say she would be a more mother bear. More like a mother bear that protects her cubs. Looking out for the best interests of her Children. Plus siding with her is a good option because of two reasons if you can call them good reasons it annoys Vanus Galerion who many or some consider to be a very annoying npc so that is a boon for helping her out and also her vampires help out with an annoying boss or harvester that you have to encounter later. Not sure if they are as annoying now. But I do remember how annoying Harvesters were when I have encountered them.

As you can all see vampires are not nearly like the d&d ones there is many variations and alignments with them but many might fall under the category evil. But there is several examples of Good Aligned Vampires and Neutral vampires in Eso. With this in mind they are not all unholy out to drink you and kill you during the night. Nor are Templars all holy and light is good. Elder Scrolls Realty being how it is Allows for Light is evil and Dark is good. So for example you can have a holy powered light powered Psychopath who uses his Holy Inspired and Light Powers to go about and massacre villages.While you can have a Lawful good Vampire run out with a sword using his darkness themed abilties to stop the Chaotic Evil Light Powered Templar and end up becoming the Hero.

StarOfElyon

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being a vampire as a Templar. This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value ESO as a RPG. And I play both PVP and PVE.

I can see your point of view but as a MMO lore is usually a way to restrict builds that maybe found in a standard game. From a ESO lore point you could be a templar that just was unlucky and got bit. Than took that as a blessing to further your rightous view by having the extra strength to go up against those that cursed you and will get it removed down the road once you rid the world of this evil.

As someone who is a Vampire Templar I don't feed because that is evil. I live with the curse and deal with the pain of being burned on a regular basis.

Also doing this would remove ESO saying of play the way you want to.

heaven13 wrote: »

Vampires and werewolves can't be part of the Fighter's Guild. Necromancers can't be in Fighter's Guild or a member of the Psijic Order. Dragonknights can't be vampires. Once you complete the main quest and get your soul back, you can no longer use wayshrines.

Sound silly yet?

This is why game developers for most MMO have much less or no restriction on skill lines when there is lore for a game such as ESO.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

You can't block an entire class from a skill line like that.

There should be even more drawbacks if you want to be a vampire. Vampire's Bane sits there as a reminder of what the class is supposed to be about.

You could rename that to anything else. Indeed, the other morph is called Reflective Light which has nothing to do with vampires at all. The base skill is called Sun Fire and both it and the morphs revolve around sun/radiant heat but since the strain of vampirism in ESO isn't affected by the sun, it's a non-issue.

If you don't want your templar to be a vamp, don't be one. Mine isn't.

Templars are based on Clerics.

"The cleric is a healer, usually a priest and a holy warrior, originally modeled on or inspired by the Military Orders... Most clerics have powers to heal wounds, protect their allies and sometimes resurrect the dead, as well as summon, manipulate and banish undead." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric_(character_class)

It's no mere coincidence that Vampire's Bane is named the way it is. Templars should not be vampires. That's why I say, there should be additional drawbacks to playing a Templar as a Vampire.

If Templar is based on clerics I see no issue with Templars being Vampires as I played an DM D&D for years and most campaign leaders were clerics, evil ones, ones that worshipped the undead such as Vampires or were Vampires themselves.



There is not point in discussing this further, Templars can be vampire because its in the game and even lore wise it makes sense.

I said Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to play a Vamplar. I'm saying the experience shouldn't be as beneficial as it would be to be a mortal Templar. There should be a drawback to playing Vamplar or a benefit to playing a mortal.

Here's the thing about "play as you want": it doesn't mean every build or play style is equal. People are arguing for equal outcome here when they say "play as you want". But we all know that there are some ways to play that simply don't benefit you.

I might want to play an Altmer stamcro but I'm not going to get the same outcome as I would playing an Orc. So play as you want doesn't mean their can't be drawbacks to your preferred build or play style. But I get it. People don't want nerfs. Fine. How about buffs instead?

How about a passive buff for playing Templar as a mortal then? Such as: "reduced damage from Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal"? Also, maybe buff the damage of the Dawn's Wrath skill line against Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal.

MehrunesFlagon

essi2 wrote: »

Sorcs shouldn't be allowed to be Vampires either then, seeing as they all get their Daedric abilities from Meridia.

Well of you take it from Vampire diaries for example,that would make perfect sense.You can be witch or vampire,not both.Would be fascinating from a lore perspective I admit,but it would be horrendous balance wise.

luizpaulom17

Lol
These Role Players man... They are ZOS major sorce of $ and most of the player base, hence why I left game for good.
Next post will be about how Argonians shouldnt be aloud to roam around without a leash in Morrowind cities, cuz they are slaves. They should also pay taxes from all of their loot to Dark Elfs, cuz they are their masters.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO

Yes.

Give their abilities more damage against vampires, undead werewolves etc as compensation.
Perhaps just increase burning light damage against them.

Danikat

StarOfElyon wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being a vampire as a Templar. This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value ESO as a RPG. And I play both PVP and PVE.

I can see your point of view but as a MMO lore is usually a way to restrict builds that maybe found in a standard game. From a ESO lore point you could be a templar that just was unlucky and got bit. Than took that as a blessing to further your rightous view by having the extra strength to go up against those that cursed you and will get it removed down the road once you rid the world of this evil.

As someone who is a Vampire Templar I don't feed because that is evil. I live with the curse and deal with the pain of being burned on a regular basis.

Also doing this would remove ESO saying of play the way you want to.

heaven13 wrote: »

Vampires and werewolves can't be part of the Fighter's Guild. Necromancers can't be in Fighter's Guild or a member of the Psijic Order. Dragonknights can't be vampires. Once you complete the main quest and get your soul back, you can no longer use wayshrines.

Sound silly yet?

This is why game developers for most MMO have much less or no restriction on skill lines when there is lore for a game such as ESO.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

You can't block an entire class from a skill line like that.

There should be even more drawbacks if you want to be a vampire. Vampire's Bane sits there as a reminder of what the class is supposed to be about.

You could rename that to anything else. Indeed, the other morph is called Reflective Light which has nothing to do with vampires at all. The base skill is called Sun Fire and both it and the morphs revolve around sun/radiant heat but since the strain of vampirism in ESO isn't affected by the sun, it's a non-issue.

If you don't want your templar to be a vamp, don't be one. Mine isn't.

Templars are based on Clerics.

"The cleric is a healer, usually a priest and a holy warrior, originally modeled on or inspired by the Military Orders... Most clerics have powers to heal wounds, protect their allies and sometimes resurrect the dead, as well as summon, manipulate and banish undead." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric_(character_class)

It's no mere coincidence that Vampire's Bane is named the way it is. Templars should not be vampires. That's why I say, there should be additional drawbacks to playing a Templar as a Vampire.

If Templar is based on clerics I see no issue with Templars being Vampires as I played an DM D&D for years and most campaign leaders were clerics, evil ones, ones that worshipped the undead such as Vampires or were Vampires themselves.



There is not point in discussing this further, Templars can be vampire because its in the game and even lore wise it makes sense.

I said Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to play a Vamplar. I'm saying the experience shouldn't be as beneficial as it would be to be a mortal Templar. There should be a drawback to playing Vamplar or a benefit to playing a mortal.

Here's the thing about "play as you want": it doesn't mean every build or play style is equal. People are arguing for equal outcome here when they say "play as you want". But we all know that there are some ways to play that simply don't benefit you.

I might want to play an Altmer stamcro but I'm not going to get the same outcome as I would playing an Orc. So play as you want doesn't mean their can't be drawbacks to your preferred build or play style. But I get it. People don't want nerfs. Fine. How about buffs instead?

How about a passive buff for playing Templar as a mortal then? Such as: "reduced damage from Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal"? Also, maybe buff the damage of the Dawn's Wrath skill line against Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal.

That still doesn't address the fact that there's absolutely no basis in TES lore for there to be any drawbacks to being both a templar and a vampire, which was the reason you gave for doing this originally. There's plenty of lore explaining the races different strengths and weaknesses and the reasons for those. There is nothing to say vampires can't use particular kinds of magic, even fire if they want to (they'd just have to be careful not to burn themselves, but that's true of mortals too).

Whether it's a nerf to vampire templars or a buff to non-vampire templars if you're going to claim it's because of TES lore you need to explain the logic behind that, not just revent to tropes from other games which don't apply here.

MEBengalsFan2001

StarOfElyon wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being a vampire as a Templar. This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value ESO as a RPG. And I play both PVP and PVE.

I can see your point of view but as a MMO lore is usually a way to restrict builds that maybe found in a standard game. From a ESO lore point you could be a templar that just was unlucky and got bit. Than took that as a blessing to further your rightous view by having the extra strength to go up against those that cursed you and will get it removed down the road once you rid the world of this evil.

As someone who is a Vampire Templar I don't feed because that is evil. I live with the curse and deal with the pain of being burned on a regular basis.

Also doing this would remove ESO saying of play the way you want to.

heaven13 wrote: »

Vampires and werewolves can't be part of the Fighter's Guild. Necromancers can't be in Fighter's Guild or a member of the Psijic Order. Dragonknights can't be vampires. Once you complete the main quest and get your soul back, you can no longer use wayshrines.

Sound silly yet?

This is why game developers for most MMO have much less or no restriction on skill lines when there is lore for a game such as ESO.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

You can't block an entire class from a skill line like that.

There should be even more drawbacks if you want to be a vampire. Vampire's Bane sits there as a reminder of what the class is supposed to be about.

You could rename that to anything else. Indeed, the other morph is called Reflective Light which has nothing to do with vampires at all. The base skill is called Sun Fire and both it and the morphs revolve around sun/radiant heat but since the strain of vampirism in ESO isn't affected by the sun, it's a non-issue.

If you don't want your templar to be a vamp, don't be one. Mine isn't.

Templars are based on Clerics.

"The cleric is a healer, usually a priest and a holy warrior, originally modeled on or inspired by the Military Orders... Most clerics have powers to heal wounds, protect their allies and sometimes resurrect the dead, as well as summon, manipulate and banish undead." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric_(character_class)

It's no mere coincidence that Vampire's Bane is named the way it is. Templars should not be vampires. That's why I say, there should be additional drawbacks to playing a Templar as a Vampire.

If Templar is based on clerics I see no issue with Templars being Vampires as I played an DM D&D for years and most campaign leaders were clerics, evil ones, ones that worshipped the undead such as Vampires or were Vampires themselves.



There is not point in discussing this further, Templars can be vampire because its in the game and even lore wise it makes sense.

I said Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to play a Vamplar. I'm saying the experience shouldn't be as beneficial as it would be to be a mortal Templar. There should be a drawback to playing Vamplar or a benefit to playing a mortal.

Here's the thing about "play as you want": it doesn't mean every build or play style is equal. People are arguing for equal outcome here when they say "play as you want". But we all know that there are some ways to play that simply don't benefit you.

I might want to play an Altmer stamcro but I'm not going to get the same outcome as I would playing an Orc. So play as you want doesn't mean their can't be drawbacks to your preferred build or play style. But I get it. People don't want nerfs. Fine. How about buffs instead?

How about a passive buff for playing Templar as a mortal then? Such as: "reduced damage from Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal"? Also, maybe buff the damage of the Dawn's Wrath skill line against Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal.

Not sure if you are the OP for this thread but if you are, weren't you originally complaining about the lore of it and now you are pulling builds into the discussion. Either stick to your guns on the lore because now it sounds like you are upset because you are not getting any bonuses because you aren't a werewolf or a vampire.

As for being a vamp or mortal both have their benefits. Vamp you get extra regen and mortal you don't take an increase to damage when being hit by fire based attacks. As a vampire I do see this impacting my character and I have died more than I am willing to admit because of this. I have to pay attention to the type of attack and be ready with a heal to offset the extra damage I may take. I also have to state that there seem to be an unfair usage of fire based attacks in this game by enemies compared to other types, maybe it is to balance out the whole vampire vs. mortal issue you mentioned.

As for play your way it basically saying you can play this game any way you want but like all MMOs there are metas and because there are metas specific races and classes and build types will work better together than others.

For instance a Nord or Imperial makes better tanks than a Breton or Altmer simply do to their passives. Altmers make better healer and magika DPS than imperials or nords because of their passives. The thing is though that you can still create an imperial healer or magika DPS. Just like you can create a Breton tank.

Sounds to me like you simply want to complain for no reason other than to complain. Being vampire is not great in many dungeons because of the fire based attacks. Yeah I get extra recovery, but at times especially in Vet Dungeons I wonder if it worth being a vampire for the extra recovery.

Eiagra

Ghettokid wrote: »

Orcs should not benefit from being Orcs

Orcs should not benefit from being Orcs. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being an Orc as an Orc This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value Orc as an Orc. And I play both Orc and Orc.

I mean, we do have a monopoly on all the sexy. I've said it quite a bit. I can understand if others think that's unfair, but nerfing it won't change anything.

Swinging to the topic at hand, though, from a lore-based perspective aren't all player characters Vestiges? In other words, Daedric in nature? Would a Vestige Templar truly be able to connect with the Divines, despite Anuic attunement? Or are their powers just manifestations of flame and light, their healing powers rooted in the restoration of the chaotic creatia they are formed of rather than true healing? Are all Vestiges, regardless of class and ability, just imitators? Do they even truly have impact and meaning, given there seems to be a Dragonbreak? Is the rest of Tamriel safely partitioned off in one section of the Break, and the Vestiges take action in a separate section, until such time the Break mends?

Are any of us truly who we think we are?

MehrunesFlagon

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being a vampire as a Templar. This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value ESO as a RPG. And I play both PVP and PVE.

I can see your point of view but as a MMO lore is usually a way to restrict builds that maybe found in a standard game. From a ESO lore point you could be a templar that just was unlucky and got bit. Than took that as a blessing to further your rightous view by having the extra strength to go up against those that cursed you and will get it removed down the road once you rid the world of this evil.

As someone who is a Vampire Templar I don't feed because that is evil. I live with the curse and deal with the pain of being burned on a regular basis.

Also doing this would remove ESO saying of play the way you want to.

heaven13 wrote: »

Vampires and werewolves can't be part of the Fighter's Guild. Necromancers can't be in Fighter's Guild or a member of the Psijic Order. Dragonknights can't be vampires. Once you complete the main quest and get your soul back, you can no longer use wayshrines.

Sound silly yet?

This is why game developers for most MMO have much less or no restriction on skill lines when there is lore for a game such as ESO.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

You can't block an entire class from a skill line like that.

There should be even more drawbacks if you want to be a vampire. Vampire's Bane sits there as a reminder of what the class is supposed to be about.

You could rename that to anything else. Indeed, the other morph is called Reflective Light which has nothing to do with vampires at all. The base skill is called Sun Fire and both it and the morphs revolve around sun/radiant heat but since the strain of vampirism in ESO isn't affected by the sun, it's a non-issue.

If you don't want your templar to be a vamp, don't be one. Mine isn't.

Templars are based on Clerics.

"The cleric is a healer, usually a priest and a holy warrior, originally modeled on or inspired by the Military Orders... Most clerics have powers to heal wounds, protect their allies and sometimes resurrect the dead, as well as summon, manipulate and banish undead." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric_(character_class)

It's no mere coincidence that Vampire's Bane is named the way it is. Templars should not be vampires. That's why I say, there should be additional drawbacks to playing a Templar as a Vampire.

If Templar is based on clerics I see no issue with Templars being Vampires as I played an DM D&D for years and most campaign leaders were clerics, evil ones, ones that worshipped the undead such as Vampires or were Vampires themselves.



There is not point in discussing this further, Templars can be vampire because its in the game and even lore wise it makes sense.

I said Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to play a Vamplar. I'm saying the experience shouldn't be as beneficial as it would be to be a mortal Templar. There should be a drawback to playing Vamplar or a benefit to playing a mortal.

Here's the thing about "play as you want": it doesn't mean every build or play style is equal. People are arguing for equal outcome here when they say "play as you want". But we all know that there are some ways to play that simply don't benefit you.

I might want to play an Altmer stamcro but I'm not going to get the same outcome as I would playing an Orc. So play as you want doesn't mean their can't be drawbacks to your preferred build or play style. But I get it. People don't want nerfs. Fine. How about buffs instead?

How about a passive buff for playing Templar as a mortal then? Such as: "reduced damage from Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal"? Also, maybe buff the damage of the Dawn's Wrath skill line against Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal.

Not sure if you are the OP for this thread but if you are, weren't you originally complaining about the lore of it and now you are pulling builds into the discussion. Either stick to your guns on the lore because now it sounds like you are upset because you are not getting any bonuses because you aren't a werewolf or a vampire.

As for being a vamp or mortal both have their benefits. Vamp you get extra regen and mortal you don't take an increase to damage when being hit by fire based attacks. As a vampire I do see this impacting my character and I have died more than I am willing to admit because of this. I have to pay attention to the type of attack and be ready with a heal to offset the extra damage I may take. I also have to state that there seem to be an unfair usage of fire based attacks in this game by enemies compared to other types, maybe it is to balance out the whole vampire vs. mortal issue you mentioned.

As for play your way it basically saying you can play this game any way you want but like all MMOs there are metas and because there are metas specific races and classes and build types will work better together than others.

For instance a Nord or Imperial makes better tanks than a Breton or Altmer simply do to their passives. Altmers make better healer and magika DPS than imperials or nords because of their passives. The thing is though that you can still create an imperial healer or magika DPS. Just like you can create a Breton tank.

Sounds to me like you simply want to complain for no reason other than to complain. Being vampire is not great in many dungeons because of the fire based attacks. Yeah I get extra recovery, but at times especially in Vet Dungeons I wonder if it worth being a vampire for the extra recovery.

I've never had fire issues on my vamps.

StarOfElyon

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being a vampire as a Templar. This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value ESO as a RPG. And I play both PVP and PVE.

I can see your point of view but as a MMO lore is usually a way to restrict builds that maybe found in a standard game. From a ESO lore point you could be a templar that just was unlucky and got bit. Than took that as a blessing to further your rightous view by having the extra strength to go up against those that cursed you and will get it removed down the road once you rid the world of this evil.

As someone who is a Vampire Templar I don't feed because that is evil. I live with the curse and deal with the pain of being burned on a regular basis.

Also doing this would remove ESO saying of play the way you want to.

heaven13 wrote: »

Vampires and werewolves can't be part of the Fighter's Guild. Necromancers can't be in Fighter's Guild or a member of the Psijic Order. Dragonknights can't be vampires. Once you complete the main quest and get your soul back, you can no longer use wayshrines.

Sound silly yet?

This is why game developers for most MMO have much less or no restriction on skill lines when there is lore for a game such as ESO.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

You can't block an entire class from a skill line like that.

There should be even more drawbacks if you want to be a vampire. Vampire's Bane sits there as a reminder of what the class is supposed to be about.

You could rename that to anything else. Indeed, the other morph is called Reflective Light which has nothing to do with vampires at all. The base skill is called Sun Fire and both it and the morphs revolve around sun/radiant heat but since the strain of vampirism in ESO isn't affected by the sun, it's a non-issue.

If you don't want your templar to be a vamp, don't be one. Mine isn't.

Templars are based on Clerics.

"The cleric is a healer, usually a priest and a holy warrior, originally modeled on or inspired by the Military Orders... Most clerics have powers to heal wounds, protect their allies and sometimes resurrect the dead, as well as summon, manipulate and banish undead." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric_(character_class)

It's no mere coincidence that Vampire's Bane is named the way it is. Templars should not be vampires. That's why I say, there should be additional drawbacks to playing a Templar as a Vampire.

If Templar is based on clerics I see no issue with Templars being Vampires as I played an DM D&D for years and most campaign leaders were clerics, evil ones, ones that worshipped the undead such as Vampires or were Vampires themselves.



There is not point in discussing this further, Templars can be vampire because its in the game and even lore wise it makes sense.

I said Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to play a Vamplar. I'm saying the experience shouldn't be as beneficial as it would be to be a mortal Templar. There should be a drawback to playing Vamplar or a benefit to playing a mortal.

Here's the thing about "play as you want": it doesn't mean every build or play style is equal. People are arguing for equal outcome here when they say "play as you want". But we all know that there are some ways to play that simply don't benefit you.

I might want to play an Altmer stamcro but I'm not going to get the same outcome as I would playing an Orc. So play as you want doesn't mean their can't be drawbacks to your preferred build or play style. But I get it. People don't want nerfs. Fine. How about buffs instead?

How about a passive buff for playing Templar as a mortal then? Such as: "reduced damage from Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal"? Also, maybe buff the damage of the Dawn's Wrath skill line against Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal.

Not sure if you are the OP for this thread but if you are, weren't you originally complaining about the lore of it and now you are pulling builds into the discussion. Either stick to your guns on the lore because now it sounds like you are upset because you are not getting any bonuses because you aren't a werewolf or a vampire.

As for being a vamp or mortal both have their benefits. Vamp you get extra regen and mortal you don't take an increase to damage when being hit by fire based attacks. As a vampire I do see this impacting my character and I have died more than I am willing to admit because of this. I have to pay attention to the type of attack and be ready with a heal to offset the extra damage I may take. I also have to state that there seem to be an unfair usage of fire based attacks in this game by enemies compared to other types, maybe it is to balance out the whole vampire vs. mortal issue you mentioned.

As for play your way it basically saying you can play this game any way you want but like all MMOs there are metas and because there are metas specific races and classes and build types will work better together than others.

For instance a Nord or Imperial makes better tanks than a Breton or Altmer simply do to their passives. Altmers make better healer and magika DPS than imperials or nords because of their passives. The thing is though that you can still create an imperial healer or magika DPS. Just like you can create a Breton tank.

Sounds to me like you simply want to complain for no reason other than to complain. Being vampire is not great in many dungeons because of the fire based attacks. Yeah I get extra recovery, but at times especially in Vet Dungeons I wonder if it worth being a vampire for the extra recovery.

My reasons haven't changed but my focus has shifted because I was mistaken about lore, but my want is still the same. I'm still making a suggestion to create the gameplay experience that I want. So, my suggestions still stand. Since people don't agree with the nerfs, I'll promote the suggestions for buffs to mortal Templars against vampires then.

I'll repost my buff ideas here to make them easy to find: How about a passive buff for playing Templar as a mortal then? Such as: "reduced damage from Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal"? Also, maybe buff the damage of the Dawn's Wrath skill line against Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal.

Thevampirenight

StarOfElyon wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. There should be additional, major drawbacks to being a vampire as a Templar. This is for lore and power fantasy reasons. I still value ESO as a RPG. And I play both PVP and PVE.

I can see your point of view but as a MMO lore is usually a way to restrict builds that maybe found in a standard game. From a ESO lore point you could be a templar that just was unlucky and got bit. Than took that as a blessing to further your rightous view by having the extra strength to go up against those that cursed you and will get it removed down the road once you rid the world of this evil.

As someone who is a Vampire Templar I don't feed because that is evil. I live with the curse and deal with the pain of being burned on a regular basis.

Also doing this would remove ESO saying of play the way you want to.

heaven13 wrote: »

Vampires and werewolves can't be part of the Fighter's Guild. Necromancers can't be in Fighter's Guild or a member of the Psijic Order. Dragonknights can't be vampires. Once you complete the main quest and get your soul back, you can no longer use wayshrines.

Sound silly yet?

This is why game developers for most MMO have much less or no restriction on skill lines when there is lore for a game such as ESO.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

You can't block an entire class from a skill line like that.

There should be even more drawbacks if you want to be a vampire. Vampire's Bane sits there as a reminder of what the class is supposed to be about.

You could rename that to anything else. Indeed, the other morph is called Reflective Light which has nothing to do with vampires at all. The base skill is called Sun Fire and both it and the morphs revolve around sun/radiant heat but since the strain of vampirism in ESO isn't affected by the sun, it's a non-issue.

If you don't want your templar to be a vamp, don't be one. Mine isn't.

Templars are based on Clerics.

"The cleric is a healer, usually a priest and a holy warrior, originally modeled on or inspired by the Military Orders... Most clerics have powers to heal wounds, protect their allies and sometimes resurrect the dead, as well as summon, manipulate and banish undead." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric_(character_class)

It's no mere coincidence that Vampire's Bane is named the way it is. Templars should not be vampires. That's why I say, there should be additional drawbacks to playing a Templar as a Vampire.

If Templar is based on clerics I see no issue with Templars being Vampires as I played an DM D&D for years and most campaign leaders were clerics, evil ones, ones that worshipped the undead such as Vampires or were Vampires themselves.



There is not point in discussing this further, Templars can be vampire because its in the game and even lore wise it makes sense.

I said Templars should not benefit from being Vampires. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to play a Vamplar. I'm saying the experience shouldn't be as beneficial as it would be to be a mortal Templar. There should be a drawback to playing Vamplar or a benefit to playing a mortal.

Here's the thing about "play as you want": it doesn't mean every build or play style is equal. People are arguing for equal outcome here when they say "play as you want". But we all know that there are some ways to play that simply don't benefit you.

I might want to play an Altmer stamcro but I'm not going to get the same outcome as I would playing an Orc. So play as you want doesn't mean their can't be drawbacks to your preferred build or play style. But I get it. People don't want nerfs. Fine. How about buffs instead?

How about a passive buff for playing Templar as a mortal then? Such as: "reduced damage from Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal"? Also, maybe buff the damage of the Dawn's Wrath skill line against Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal.

Not sure if you are the OP for this thread but if you are, weren't you originally complaining about the lore of it and now you are pulling builds into the discussion. Either stick to your guns on the lore because now it sounds like you are upset because you are not getting any bonuses because you aren't a werewolf or a vampire.

As for being a vamp or mortal both have their benefits. Vamp you get extra regen and mortal you don't take an increase to damage when being hit by fire based attacks. As a vampire I do see this impacting my character and I have died more than I am willing to admit because of this. I have to pay attention to the type of attack and be ready with a heal to offset the extra damage I may take. I also have to state that there seem to be an unfair usage of fire based attacks in this game by enemies compared to other types, maybe it is to balance out the whole vampire vs. mortal issue you mentioned.

As for play your way it basically saying you can play this game any way you want but like all MMOs there are metas and because there are metas specific races and classes and build types will work better together than others.

For instance a Nord or Imperial makes better tanks than a Breton or Altmer simply do to their passives. Altmers make better healer and magika DPS than imperials or nords because of their passives. The thing is though that you can still create an imperial healer or magika DPS. Just like you can create a Breton tank.

Sounds to me like you simply want to complain for no reason other than to complain. Being vampire is not great in many dungeons because of the fire based attacks. Yeah I get extra recovery, but at times especially in Vet Dungeons I wonder if it worth being a vampire for the extra recovery.

My reasons haven't changed but my focus has shifted because I was mistaken about lore, but my want is still the same. I'm still making a suggestion to create the gameplay experience that I want. So, my suggestions still stand. Since people don't agree with the nerfs, I'll promote the suggestions for buffs to mortal Templars against vampires then.

I'll repost my buff ideas here to make them easy to find: How about a passive buff for playing Templar as a mortal then? Such as: "reduced damage from Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal"? Also, maybe buff the damage of the Dawn's Wrath skill line against Vampires and Werewolves while playing a mortal.

Well they could modify one of their passives to give bonus regen 5%/10% but only if not a vampire. Then some players would likely get upset all about that. Not being able to benefit from the vampires regen plus the templars. But could be a unique passive for them. So they wouldn't have to be a vampire to benefit from ten extra resource regen.