Anyone Else Think The Ability Sequence in the Assault/Support Line Could Be Improved?

Iskiab

I really hope they change/fix this. Rapids require only 1 BG to get, which is perfect because it’s required in the game.

But... Vigor... I think things would be better for everyone if Vigor only required one BG too. PvE players wouldn’t be forced to PvP which is a constant complaint of theirs, plus stam would get the tools they need to succeed earlier.

It’s a constant complaint, I don’t see a downside and don’t know why it wasn’t done a long time ago.

Gnortranermara

Nice thought, but here is why it'll never happen.

idk

First off it is a no brainer that a majority of players want things easier.
Second, it is not a constant complain as it is only really a complain from those who want things now and do not want to put in what little time it takes to get Vigor.
Third, every skill line requires progression in some manner to get the next skill or passive and AvA is not different. So the idea goes against the grain of the games design.

In the end if it is to much to ask to put that little effort into getting the skill pony up the bucks and buy that line. Well, as long as you have put in the effort to be able to buy it. I am not trying to be all negative. For the reasons stated I doubt Zos will give this any serious consideration even if they had not started selling the skill line to those who had unlocked the skill line.

Taleof2Cities

@idk is right.

I’m kind of surprised you started an instant gratification plea thread, @Iskiab.

Iskiab

It’s more a matter of being able to be successful in pvp requires Vigor if you’re stam.

It’s the pve equivalent of putting the taunt and healing abilities in the undaunted tree. How would you be able to tank if you need to do multiple dungeons first to have a taunt?

idk

Iskiab wrote: »

It’s more a matter of being able to be successful in pvp requires Vigor if you’re stam.

It’s the pve equivalent of putting the taunt and healing abilities in the undaunted tree. How would you be able to tank if you need to do multiple dungeons first to have a taunt?

Not an equivalent at all. That comparison is so absurd I do not know where to start.

You are literally suggesting that a stam player's main role is a healer first and foremost. That does not even get into the fact that a great many players have been able to successfully obtain vigor while somehow playing as a stam character.

I can see such a request from someone who does not like PvP but even many players in that group manage somehow to get Vigor by doing some PvP.

Iskiab

idk wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

It’s more a matter of being able to be successful in pvp requires Vigor if you’re stam.

It’s the pve equivalent of putting the taunt and healing abilities in the undaunted tree. How would you be able to tank if you need to do multiple dungeons first to have a taunt?

Not an equivalent at all. That comparison is so absurd I do not know where to start.

You are literally suggesting that a stam player's main role is a healer first and foremost. That does not even get into the fact that a great many players have been able to successfully obtain vigor while somehow playing as a stam character.

I can see such a request from someone who does not like PvP but even many players in that group manage somehow to get Vigor by doing some PvP.

What? This is the pvp forums, self healing is most definitely one of every build’s primary concerns.

If you can’t pvp without a healer in your group you’re a carry. If you think it’s not required by stam then don’t use it, otherwise you’re being a hypocrite.

code65536

Back in my day, we had to walk through snow, uphill, both ways.

Seriously, though, Vigor is very easy to get these days. Originally, Vigor was the last ability in the skill tree and it required Assault 10.

Furthermore, ranking through the Assault/Support skill lines required a lot more AP back then. Whereas you can reach Assault 10 today as a Corporal, Assault 10 originally required Centurion Grade 2, requiring nearly 7 million AP.

Finally, AP was much harder to earn back then. Instead of fat multi-thousand AP ticks for PvDooring a keep, back in those days, if you PvDoored an empty keep, you'd get maybe 100 AP. Back then, there weren't BGs that would grant several thousand AP just for participating and coming in last in a match.

By moving Vigor from Assault 10 to Assault 5 and dramatically slashing the ranking costs of the Assault line, the cost of of Vigor has been reduced from 6918400 AP down to 98000 AP. That's a reduction of 98.6%. On top of major boosts to the ease of earning AP. It's fine now. Because it already had been adjusted.

idk

Iskiab wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

It’s more a matter of being able to be successful in pvp requires Vigor if you’re stam.

It’s the pve equivalent of putting the taunt and healing abilities in the undaunted tree. How would you be able to tank if you need to do multiple dungeons first to have a taunt?

Not an equivalent at all. That comparison is so absurd I do not know where to start.

You are literally suggesting that a stam player's main role is a healer first and foremost. That does not even get into the fact that a great many players have been able to successfully obtain vigor while somehow playing as a stam character.

I can see such a request from someone who does not like PvP but even many players in that group manage somehow to get Vigor by doing some PvP.

What? This is the pvp forums, self healing is most definitely one of every build’s primary concerns.

If you can’t pvp without a healer in your group you’re a carry. If you think it’s not required by stam then don’t use it, otherwise you’re being a hypocrite.

lol. Thx for pointing out the obvious that this is the PvP sub forum but you are painfully wrong with you comparison only you are really bad at dealing damage. But I like the hypocrite remark in the midst of an entitlement thread.

Code aptly points out how much easier it is to get Vigor today than when the game launched and you just want Zos to give it to you for walking through the door. Today do not have to do much to gain the skill and you are still complaining.

So if you want it easier that how easy it is today then pony up the cash because it is doubtful Zos will consider making the change.

Edit: Somehow us old timers survived in PvP before Zos added Vigor. OP mentions BGs and even though many level their characters in BGs while working to get Vigor without an issue. If that does not work for OP they may want to consider a little time in Cyrodiil before entering BGs.

exeeter702

Once upon a time you didnt have easy fast bgs to farm ap and vigor was assault 10.

This isnt even an issue. Vigor is not comparable to key enabling role specifc skills for pve.

Royaji

code65536 wrote: »

the cost of of Vigor has been reduced from 6918400 AP down to 98000 AP. That's a reduction of 98.6%.

When you actually type those numbers out it's seriously nuts how much easier getting Vigor is today. Guess this only proves that some will never be happy.

Iskiab

Royaji wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

the cost of of Vigor has been reduced from 6918400 AP down to 98000 AP. That's a reduction of 98.6%.

When you actually type those numbers out it's seriously nuts how much easier getting Vigor is today. Guess this only proves that some will never be happy.

How much something cost in the past is irrelevant. The game was generally accepted to be a PoS when it was released.

Whatever rationale they had when they made it so expensive was a poor decision, making it cheaper but still expensive for new players is still too expensive.

To stand a chance in pvp you need to already be geared for pvp. I doubt older players remember what it was like when they first started, but it was horrible. You felt like you do no damage and you get blown up in 2 seconds.

Plus, thinking that you did something the hard way when it was more expensive so other players should too is childish. You’re basicly admitting you’re bad and then saying it should be harder for others so you have an easier chance being successful with new players to farm.

Royaji

Iskiab wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

the cost of of Vigor has been reduced from 6918400 AP down to 98000 AP. That's a reduction of 98.6%.

When you actually type those numbers out it's seriously nuts how much easier getting Vigor is today. Guess this only proves that some will never be happy.

How much something cost in the past is irrelevant. The game was generally accepted to be a PoS when it was released.

It's good that some things never change.

98k AP is not hard. Two BGs a day will get you there in 10 days. And you can just go in and AFK at spawn.

And it's not like having Vigor will immediately quadruple your chance of surviving (not even talking about winning) a fight in PvP while you are on your first 100k AP. A new player will get exploded in two seconds before they can even use Vigor anyway.

Rikumaru

Sorry but PvP players have to grind to level 9 undaunted. You can have your level 2 alliance war vigor if I can have my level 2 undaunted passives.

Iskiab

Rikumaru wrote: »

Sorry but PvP players have to grind to level 9 undaunted. You can have your level 2 alliance war vigor if I can have my level 2 undaunted passives.

I’m primarily pvp. I see what you’re saying but pve and pvp, for me at least, have different things that make them fun.

PvE is about progression, getting drops, and competing for top dps.

PvP is more about having an even playing field and winning anyways. The closer the competition the more fun it is, what kills pvp more than anything else is when you steamroll and get bored. Some people like steamrolling all the time... I think they were bullied as kids.

Xvorg

code65536 wrote: »

Back in my day, we had to walk through snow, uphill, both ways.

Seriously, though, Vigor is very easy to get these days. Originally, Vigor was the last ability in the skill tree and it required Assault 10.

Furthermore, ranking through the Assault/Support skill lines required a lot more AP back then. Whereas you can reach Assault 10 today as a Corporal, Assault 10 originally required Centurion Grade 2, requiring nearly 7 million AP.

Finally, AP was much harder to earn back then. Instead of fat multi-thousand AP ticks for PvDooring a keep, back in those days, if you PvDoored an empty keep, you'd get maybe 100 AP. Back then, there weren't BGs that would grant several thousand AP just for participating and coming in last in a match.

By moving Vigor from Assault 10 to Assault 5 and dramatically slashing the ranking costs of the Assault line, the cost of of Vigor has been reduced from 6918400 AP down to 98000 AP. That's a reduction of 98.6%. On top of major boosts to the ease of earning AP. It's fine now. Because it already had been adjusted.

I think they move it first to Assault 6 and then to assault 5... I don't want to open my history book btw.

And I agree, currently it is easier to get vigor than it was some years ago. (even cosidering vigor was added a couple months after the game was launched)

Rahar

ITT: OP arguing with PvP players who don't actually PvP.

Vigor being a team healing skill? Vigor not being nigh-necessary on a stam build? Vigor being actually relevant "back in the day"? BOI.

Next time just do a few BGs under 50 in purple gear so someone else starts the annoying thread.

Joy_Division

It was done a long time ago. Used to have to be alliance rank 23 back when you got 100 AP for PvDooring a resource instead of 1.5K.

Any PuG can get this skill in two hours tops just by following the faction stack during prime time.

idk

.

Joy_Division wrote: »

It was done a long time ago. Used to have to be alliance rank 23 back when you got 100 AP for PvDooring a resource instead of 1.5K.

Any PuG can get this skill in two hours tops just by following the faction stack during prime time.

Exactly. Code wrote a well though post as well about how the cost is a sliver of what it once was. Do not know if they also noted how we earn significantly more AP today than before.

Just so easy to get this skill now.

jaws343

Here is the thing, if you are building a stam toon for PVP you should be doing the daily BG while leveling the toon. And you should also be doing regular BG queues while leveling the toon for the Alliance level ups and easy XP.

Now, if you are doing this starting at level 10, you should have vigor unlocked before you even get anywhere near level 20.

If you need Vigor in under 50 BGs you really have no clue how to build or level a toon. Especially since every class has some sort of healing ability available by that level, and a low level toon is far more able to use magic healing skills than a fully leveled toon.

So, Vigor is fine where it is. 7-10 BG matches while leveling and you have it. Hardly any effort at all.

Iskiab

jaws343 wrote: »

Here is the thing, if you are building a stam toon for PVP you should be doing the daily BG while leveling the toon. And you should also be doing regular BG queues while leveling the toon for the Alliance level ups and easy XP.

Now, if you are doing this starting at level 10, you should have vigor unlocked before you even get anywhere near level 20.

If you need Vigor in under 50 BGs you really have no clue how to build or level a toon. Especially since every class has some sort of healing ability available by that level, and a low level toon is far more able to use magic healing skills than a fully leveled toon.

So, Vigor is fine where it is. 7-10 BG matches while leveling and you have it. Hardly any effort at all.

Yea, but don’t you think that this is from the perspective of someone who already pvp’s?

I did most of my MMO pvp a long time ago (ending in Rift) and went pure PvE starting in that game. When I started ESO PvP wasn’t even on my radar.

I didn’t start pvping in ESO until CP300, and when I did I felt like I was getting wrecked all the time. Most players would have given up I think, but I continued because I had a pvp background.

I’m not saying it’s difficult to get vigor, especially if you’re experienced in the game and know what you’re doing. I’m saying given how important vigor is to stam toons, it should be treated as a base skill like how spammables are usually base skills, a taunt is the base skill in the tanking tree, etc...

I also think it’s more like 20 BG wins/2nds to get vigor. I’ve hit 50 on alts before getting barrier and it’s at about the same level.

jaws343

Iskiab wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Here is the thing, if you are building a stam toon for PVP you should be doing the daily BG while leveling the toon. And you should also be doing regular BG queues while leveling the toon for the Alliance level ups and easy XP.

Now, if you are doing this starting at level 10, you should have vigor unlocked before you even get anywhere near level 20.

If you need Vigor in under 50 BGs you really have no clue how to build or level a toon. Especially since every class has some sort of healing ability available by that level, and a low level toon is far more able to use magic healing skills than a fully leveled toon.

So, Vigor is fine where it is. 7-10 BG matches while leveling and you have it. Hardly any effort at all.

Yea, but don’t you think that this is from the perspective of someone who already pvp’s?

I did most of my MMO pvp a long time ago (ending in Rift) and went pure PvE starting in that game. When I started ESO PvP wasn’t even on my radar.

I didn’t start pvping in ESO until CP300, and when I did I felt like I was getting wrecked all the time. Most players would have given up I think, but I continued because I had a pvp background.

I’m not saying it’s difficult to get vigor, especially if you’re experienced in the game and know what you’re doing. I’m saying given how important vigor is to stam toons, it should be treated as a base skill like how spammables are usually base skills, a taunt is the base skill in the tanking tree, etc...

Use Rally. Or, if you are a Necro or Warden, use your class stam heal. Or if you are a sorc, use surge or dark deal.

There are enough options outside of Vigor for stam healing that 10 matches of a BG aren't nearly as much of an issue as you are making it out to be.

Royaji

Iskiab wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Here is the thing, if you are building a stam toon for PVP you should be doing the daily BG while leveling the toon. And you should also be doing regular BG queues while leveling the toon for the Alliance level ups and easy XP.

Now, if you are doing this starting at level 10, you should have vigor unlocked before you even get anywhere near level 20.

If you need Vigor in under 50 BGs you really have no clue how to build or level a toon. Especially since every class has some sort of healing ability available by that level, and a low level toon is far more able to use magic healing skills than a fully leveled toon.

So, Vigor is fine where it is. 7-10 BG matches while leveling and you have it. Hardly any effort at all.

I also think it’s more like 20 BG wins/2nds to get vigor. I’ve hit 50 on alts before getting barrier and it’s at about the same level.

With about 8k per win and 5k per loss it's 20 losses or 12 wins to Vigor, let's say 15-18 games on average. Or a couple of evenings of very casual zerg surfing. That's really not long at all.

artal

Is vigor realy 98k ap?
I had feeling that i got it in like 10 bgs while i was leveling new char. Its beyond easy.
But undaunted on other hand... Its driving me crazy to grind for it as pvp player and it takes a while. And if anything im surely not on equal footing with my new toon in bg. Those resources means a lot in no cp

Koensol

Just buy with crowns m8

Luede

allianz war skill line is nothing in comparison to undaunted or psijik.

Iskiab

Luede wrote: »

allianz war skill line is nothing in comparison to undaunted or psijik.

Psijiic I don’t mind, to have a decent toon you need need to collect all the skyshards anyways and level all your skills. It only sucks without addons, even public dungeons get easier and by your third time you won’t need to look up where the skill point bosses are.

Undaunted is bad yea, I equate it to being alliance/support 10. I do BGs on my toons until I’m alliance/support 10 and undaunted 10 before heading into cyrodiil. Your character will be underpowered until all that’s maxed out.

The Uninvited

Iskiab wrote: »

I’m saying given how important vigor is to stam toons, it should be treated as a base skill like how spammables are usually base skills, a taunt is the base skill in the tanking tree, etc...

This is a very good point. Vigor would have a better place in a skill tree like 1h/shield and should be replaced by another skill actually more fitting to the pvp ASSAULT skill line.

Seriously, I never understood the placing of a healing skill under a skill tree named ASSAULT. Could be replaced by a stamina version of detonation maybe (but moved up higher again as to not be to easy to get)?

Iskiab

The Uninvited wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I’m saying given how important vigor is to stam toons, it should be treated as a base skill like how spammables are usually base skills, a taunt is the base skill in the tanking tree, etc...

This is a very good point. Vigor would have a better place in a skill tree like 1h/shield and should be replaced by another skill actually more fitting to the pvp ASSAULT skill line.

Seriously, I never understood the placing of a healing skill under a skill tree named ASSAULT. Could be replaced by a stamina version of detonation maybe (but moved up higher again as to not be to easy to get)?

Hum? Self healing isn’t an optional thing, it’s a requirement for the basis of pvp. Most new players get wrecked solely because they aren’t healing themselves enough.

I’m saying moreso that vigor should be a base skill, because a character that can’t heal themselves in pvp is at best a carry, and usually just free AP.

The Uninvited

Iskiab wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I’m saying given how important vigor is to stam toons, it should be treated as a base skill like how spammables are usually base skills, a taunt is the base skill in the tanking tree, etc...

This is a very good point. Vigor would have a better place in a skill tree like 1h/shield and should be replaced by another skill actually more fitting to the pvp ASSAULT skill line.

Seriously, I never understood the placing of a healing skill under a skill tree named ASSAULT. Could be replaced by a stamina version of detonation maybe (but moved up higher again as to not be to easy to get)?

Hum? Self healing isn’t an optional thing, it’s a requirement for the basis of pvp. Most new players get wrecked solely because they aren’t healing themselves enough.

I’m saying moreso that vigor should be a base skill, because a character that can’t heal themselves in pvp is at best a carry, and usually just free AP.

??? I didn't say to remove vigor, I just opted to move it to a "base" skill tree like 1h/shield.

Iskiab

The Uninvited wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I’m saying given how important vigor is to stam toons, it should be treated as a base skill like how spammables are usually base skills, a taunt is the base skill in the tanking tree, etc...

This is a very good point. Vigor would have a better place in a skill tree like 1h/shield and should be replaced by another skill actually more fitting to the pvp ASSAULT skill line.

Seriously, I never understood the placing of a healing skill under a skill tree named ASSAULT. Could be replaced by a stamina version of detonation maybe (but moved up higher again as to not be to easy to get)?

Hum? Self healing isn’t an optional thing, it’s a requirement for the basis of pvp. Most new players get wrecked solely because they aren’t healing themselves enough.

I’m saying moreso that vigor should be a base skill, because a character that can’t heal themselves in pvp is at best a carry, and usually just free AP.

??? I didn't say to remove vigor, I just opted to move it to a "base" skill tree like 1h/shield.

Ah okay, sorry, I misunderstood. I though you meant that it should be moved to 1H/shield.

Inevitable det for stam would be a good idea, if it worked. Stamwarden would be a little too sick using inev det, shalks and crit rush but it would improve cyrodiil balance overall. Maybe low enough base damage to discourage it being used against anyone else but groups.