Nerf Wardens

Shanehere

kaithuzar wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Warden has one of the most straight forward and predictable burst combos in the game. Not too mention that in order to be strong you have to maintain 4 buffs with basically 90% uptime.

Complaining to complain.

1) Every class has a predictable burst combo
2) Every class has buffs they maintain
3) Anyone can jump on a Warden, spam shimmering & be just as much if not more survivable than a tank based class such as dk or even templar.
4) Stamina Warden can go around spamming the exact same combo as every other stamina class ie...
dizzying swing -> dawnbreak -> whirlwind ; & be just as if not more effective due to minor heroism, shimmering's mitigation, & netch, add beetles to it & there really isn't much to counter them; especially when you get 2 or 3 of them coordinating burst (it's more effective than 2 or 3 of any other class coordinating burst).

1)Warden's burst is centered around shalks, which is a delayed burst skill that is avoidable if you position yourself not directly in front of the warden when you see the giant green/blue circle around them. As long as you're not standing there and attacking them like it's Runescape your odds of getting hit with it decrease exponentially. They increase their chances of hitting shalks if they rely on DB CC or their (additionally delayed) off-balanced stun from dizzy, which is something quite difficult to time with shalks if you haven't tried it.

What other delayed burst skills are like this in the game? Magsorcs haunting curse, which when applied is completely unavoidable. Timed with crystal frags, which is not technically a delayed burst but has a travel time, and with endless fury procced, and maybe a charged light attack immediately following your frags the enemy is likely dead. At a distance it is likely you can see the frags coming at you and you can block or dodge it, but the closer the Magsorc is the less time you have of reacting to that frag. Most people know that when that second haunting curse is about to explode on you your best bet is dodging or holding block regardless because a frag is likely to come your way. However, Magsorcs have that unblockable streak stun that they can use on you right before their curse is about to explode so they have you stunned while they let that frag fly.

Wardens have a delayed burst, delayed CC, a CC'd ultimate if they choose to run it over the better onslaught. None of it is guaranteed. Most of the time Wardens whiff one if not multiple skills during fights over and over again. A warden only ever kills someone if they can hit you with everything. To say that there is no counter is lazy.

2) Every class has buffs they maintain, but Warden has more, and if one isn't up, they are dead. Warden also has the least offensive pressure because they rely on their burst combo to kill you and when their buffs run out they need to completely stop attacking you in order to reapply them.

3) A Warden with shimmering on their bar is likely giving up falcon's swiftness, which is a huge hit to their damage, or vines/green lotus, a huge hit to their healing and survivability as well as their damage. When a warden chooses their kit they have to choose between damage and healing. Shimmering is used for the heroism it gives, and having that on their bars makes them super reliant on waiting for their ultimate to kill people, more than they already are.

4) Dizzy swing, dawnbreak, and whirlwind is an impossble combo. But shalks with dizzy, ultimate, execute or shalks, birds, ultimate, whirlwind are the popular ones. The dual wield spec can also run the swarm dot which can help a little with pressure but not that much. There is absolutely a counter though: continued mobility/positioning, knowing when to be defensive during warden's burst windows and offensive when their reapplying their buffs... stunning a warden when their buffs are gone = goodbye. Offensive pressure through passive bleeds and dots are a big counter to warden.

Every class is more powerful when there are two of them coordinating bursts. If two wardens hit you with their full delayed bursts they can wipe groups, but only if they all have their skills timed at the exact same time and multiple people are choosing to stand directly in front of them. Going up against two wardens when you're in a group all you have to do is be moving around in all different directions so they can only target one person at a time, and that person just needs to roll dodge through them, utilize the environment for LOS, CC one or both to stop their burst attempt(s), etc.

Raudgrani

I've never even thought of it as a problem. Ever. Yes, I play warden now and then, and I've been fighting a lot of wardens, but never had these problems, or thought of it as "OP".

Marcus684

Every class seems OP in the hands of a skilled player. Learn to counter their strengths.

kaithuzar

Shanehere wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Warden has one of the most straight forward and predictable burst combos in the game. Not too mention that in order to be strong you have to maintain 4 buffs with basically 90% uptime.

Complaining to complain.

1) Every class has a predictable burst combo
2) Every class has buffs they maintain
3) Anyone can jump on a Warden, spam shimmering & be just as much if not more survivable than a tank based class such as dk or even templar.
4) Stamina Warden can go around spamming the exact same combo as every other stamina class ie...
dizzying swing -> dawnbreak -> whirlwind ; & be just as if not more effective due to minor heroism, shimmering's mitigation, & netch, add beetles to it & there really isn't much to counter them; especially when you get 2 or 3 of them coordinating burst (it's more effective than 2 or 3 of any other class coordinating burst).

1)Warden's burst is centered around shalks, which is a delayed burst skill that is avoidable if you position yourself not directly in front of the warden when you see the giant green/blue circle around them. As long as you're not standing there and attacking them like it's Runescape your odds of getting hit with it decrease exponentially. They increase their chances of hitting shalks if they rely on DB CC or their (additionally delayed) off-balanced stun from dizzy, which is something quite difficult to time with shalks if you haven't tried it.

What other delayed burst skills are like this in the game? Magsorcs haunting curse, which when applied is completely unavoidable. Timed with crystal frags, which is not technically a delayed burst but has a travel time, and with endless fury procced, and maybe a charged light attack immediately following your frags the enemy is likely dead. At a distance it is likely you can see the frags coming at you and you can block or dodge it, but the closer the Magsorc is the less time you have of reacting to that frag. Most people know that when that second haunting curse is about to explode on you your best bet is dodging or holding block regardless because a frag is likely to come your way. However, Magsorcs have that unblockable streak stun that they can use on you right before their curse is about to explode so they have you stunned while they let that frag fly.

Wardens have a delayed burst, delayed CC, a CC'd ultimate if they choose to run it over the better onslaught. None of it is guaranteed. Most of the time Wardens whiff one if not multiple skills during fights over and over again. A warden only ever kills someone if they can hit you with everything. To say that there is no counter is lazy.

2) Every class has buffs they maintain, but Warden has more, and if one isn't up, they are dead. Warden also has the least offensive pressure because they rely on their burst combo to kill you and when their buffs run out they need to completely stop attacking you in order to reapply them.

3) A Warden with shimmering on their bar is likely giving up falcon's swiftness, which is a huge hit to their damage, or vines/green lotus, a huge hit to their healing and survivability as well as their damage. When a warden chooses their kit they have to choose between damage and healing. Shimmering is used for the heroism it gives, and having that on their bars makes them super reliant on waiting for their ultimate to kill people, more than they already are.

4) Dizzy swing, dawnbreak, and whirlwind is an impossble combo. But shalks with dizzy, ultimate, execute or shalks, birds, ultimate, whirlwind are the popular ones. The dual wield spec can also run the swarm dot which can help a little with pressure but not that much. There is absolutely a counter though: continued mobility/positioning, knowing when to be defensive during warden's burst windows and offensive when their reapplying their buffs... stunning a warden when their buffs are gone = goodbye. Offensive pressure through passive bleeds and dots are a big counter to warden.

Every class is more powerful when there are two of them coordinating bursts. If two wardens hit you with their full delayed bursts they can wipe groups, but only if they all have their skills timed at the exact same time and multiple people are choosing to stand directly in front of them. Going up against two wardens when you're in a group all you have to do is be moving around in all different directions so they can only target one person at a time, and that person just needs to roll dodge through them, utilize the environment for LOS, CC one or both to stop their burst attempt(s), etc.

1) I know wardens that do not center their burst around shalks, but we’ll go with it anyways. To clarify, I’m talking bg’s, so 4v4v4. CC & aoe is pretty much king there, & you have the benefit of 3 other players helping you CC someone, so just sit back & spam shalks as much as you want because they aren’t doing any damage to you & your buddy is spamming arrow barrage or shock clench on them.

2) if 1 buff isn’t up you’re dead? Get real. You can forget to apply an offensive buff as long as you have defensive/sustain buffs up.

3) Every build for every class has to give up something; make some sacrifices for other parts of the build. You don’t get to be a special snowflake just because you’re having trouble with bar space. Welcome to ESO 2014.

4) Are you trying to say it’s an impossible combo because “bar swap”????
Offensive pressure through dots? Do you know what patch this is? The dot meta just got nerfed into the ground.

“Be moving around so they can only target one person at a time”.....
That’s the definition of “focusing targets”, & not 1 player is going to stand up to that unless you’re wearing white off-set gear & picked up warden yesterday. I’m absolutely going to be there with my homie block casting heals & trying to CC one or both of you!

OrderoftheDarkness

I agree with the TS about the Wardens, which cause 1.5 - 2 million damage at the end of the battle. The most gifted wardens use Spectral Cloak. As in the case of stamplar, in the end we have tank glass cannons - this is very bad for the dynamics of the game. I hope the developers someday understand how much Spectral Cloak differs from its counterparts.

Shanehere

kaithuzar wrote: »

1) I know wardens that do not center their burst around shalks, but we’ll go with it anyways. To clarify, I’m talking bg’s, so 4v4v4. CC & aoe is pretty much king there, & you have the benefit of 3 other players helping you CC someone, so just sit back & spam shalks as much as you want because they aren’t doing any damage to you & your buddy is spamming arrow barrage or shock clench on them.

2) if 1 buff isn’t up you’re dead? Get real. You can forget to apply an offensive buff as long as you have defensive/sustain buffs up.

3) Every build for every class has to give up something; make some sacrifices for other parts of the build. You don’t get to be a special snowflake just because you’re having trouble with bar space. Welcome to ESO 2014.

4) Are you trying to say it’s an impossible combo because “bar swap”????
Offensive pressure through dots? Do you know what patch this is? The dot meta just got nerfed into the ground.

“Be moving around so they can only target one person at a time”.....
That’s the definition of “focusing targets”, & not 1 player is going to stand up to that unless you’re wearing white off-set gear & picked up warden yesterday. I’m absolutely going to be there with my homie block casting heals & trying to CC one or both of you!

Sounds like you're arguing just to argue and not even trying to make sense. Guess it's easier to make excuses and complain about dying against a class rather than learning how to fight it effectively.

EDIT: Wait wait wait, I thought you were mistaking whirlwind for executioner/reverse slice... you're telling me you run DW/2h and have shalks and dizzy on one bar and you swap weapons for your execute? And you know people who don't use shalks for burst? I guess Warden is a hard class to pick up for some people.

kaithuzar

Shanehere wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

1) I know wardens that do not center their burst around shalks, but we’ll go with it anyways. To clarify, I’m talking bg’s, so 4v4v4. CC & aoe is pretty much king there, & you have the benefit of 3 other players helping you CC someone, so just sit back & spam shalks as much as you want because they aren’t doing any damage to you & your buddy is spamming arrow barrage or shock clench on them.

2) if 1 buff isn’t up you’re dead? Get real. You can forget to apply an offensive buff as long as you have defensive/sustain buffs up.

3) Every build for every class has to give up something; make some sacrifices for other parts of the build. You don’t get to be a special snowflake just because you’re having trouble with bar space. Welcome to ESO 2014.

4) Are you trying to say it’s an impossible combo because “bar swap”????
Offensive pressure through dots? Do you know what patch this is? The dot meta just got nerfed into the ground.

“Be moving around so they can only target one person at a time”.....
That’s the definition of “focusing targets”, & not 1 player is going to stand up to that unless you’re wearing white off-set gear & picked up warden yesterday. I’m absolutely going to be there with my homie block casting heals & trying to CC one or both of you!

Sounds like you're arguing just to argue and not even trying to make sense. Guess it's easier to make excuses and complain about dying against a class rather than learning how to fight it effectively.

EDIT: Wait wait wait, I thought you were mistaking whirlwind for executioner/reverse slice... you're telling me you run DW/2h and have shalks and dizzy on one bar and you swap weapons for your execute? And you know people who don't use shalks for burst? I guess Warden is a hard class to pick up for some people.

I made specific claims about stamina warden being able to use the exact same combo that every other stamina class can use only warden has a better toolkit.
I spoke specifically about shimmering shield having the ability to negate entire classes/specs of winning a fight against them.

You proceeded to complain about bar space & keeping up buffs.
I called out the flaws in your fallacious argument.
If you’re having a problem understanding this, I don’t know what to tell you.

And by the way, I don’t run that setup, I was just calling out what I’ve watched others do.

JSlayer211

@Shanehere It's obvious he knows nothing about wardens, let alone stam warden and how to build one. Reading the things he thinks are put on a bar is laughable. I almost fell out of my char looking at Dizzy>DB>Whirlwind. Clearly someone got bagged hard by a warden and brought their feelings to the forums. Wardens have what has to be the most convoluted CC combo that has to be performed just to even CC a person short of Drain Essence/Dawn Breaker.

Shanehere

JSlayer211 wrote: »

@Shanehere It's obvious he knows nothing about wardens, let alone stam warden and how to build one. Reading the things he thinks are put on a bar is laughable. I almost fell out of my char looking at Dizzy>DB>Whirlwind. Clearly someone got bagged hard by a warden and brought their feelings to the forums. Wardens have what has to be the most convoluted CC combo that has to be performed just to even CC a person short of Drain Essence/Dawn Breaker.

It was my fault for trying to have an unbiased discussion with someone on the Nerf thread they created. I should know better.

Sorbin

JSlayer211 wrote: »

@Shanehere It's obvious he knows nothing about wardens, let alone stam warden and how to build one. Reading the things he thinks are put on a bar is laughable. I almost fell out of my char looking at Dizzy>DB>Whirlwind. Clearly someone got bagged hard by a warden and brought their feelings to the forums. Wardens have what has to be the most convoluted CC combo that has to be performed just to even CC a person short of Drain Essence/Dawn Breaker.

That *** killed me. No player worth their salt is going to allow a combo that clunky to kill them. My Stamden is hitting 6k weapon damage + minor Berserk fully buffed and there are players of basically every class who can eat a Dizzy/Sub Assault Onslaught/Executioner combo from that unless you nail them perfectly when their defense is down.

It hits hard as *** and it absolutely wrecks people that don't mitigate properly before the fight even begins. But honestly you can achieve enough damage mitigation on every build right now to allow counterplay against basically every class in the game. I don't think anything needs to be nerfed too seriously right now.

I would agree that the Netch may be a bit overpacked with how much it offers. I think increasing the cooldown on the cleanse and maybe tweaking it to be make spamming the Netch useless would be perfectly reasonable adjustments. But as far as damage goes, I don't think there's a class in the game right now that needs damage cut; if anything, we need to look at making gradual increases in damage, starting with classes that are underperforming.

Iskiab

Well, still don’t think Wardens are OP, but I agree that some of the same old tired things people say about the class are nonsense.

Ever noticed how people start a game on whatever class and gravitate towards DK, Warden, Sorc or Templar (or Necro in large scale)? BS aside, people who talk up the weaknesses are being disingenuous. There’s a reason people eventually make the switch from other classes, no matter how much BS they spew to try and convince others there’s no advantage.

Joy_Division

Shanehere wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

Warden has one of the most straight forward and predictable burst combos in the game. Not too mention that in order to be strong you have to maintain 4 buffs with basically 90% uptime.

Complaining to complain.

1) Every class has a predictable burst combo
2) Every class has buffs they maintain
3) Anyone can jump on a Warden, spam shimmering & be just as much if not more survivable than a tank based class such as dk or even templar.
4) Stamina Warden can go around spamming the exact same combo as every other stamina class ie...
dizzying swing -> dawnbreak -> whirlwind ; & be just as if not more effective due to minor heroism, shimmering's mitigation, & netch, add beetles to it & there really isn't much to counter them; especially when you get 2 or 3 of them coordinating burst (it's more effective than 2 or 3 of any other class coordinating burst).

1)Warden's burst is centered around shalks, which is a delayed burst skill that is avoidable if you position yourself not directly in front of the warden when you see the giant green/blue circle around them. As long as you're not standing there and attacking them like it's Runescape your odds of getting hit with it decrease exponentially. They increase their chances of hitting shalks if they rely on DB CC or their (additionally delayed) off-balanced stun from dizzy, which is something quite difficult to time with shalks if you haven't tried it.

What other delayed burst skills are like this in the game? Magsorcs haunting curse, which when applied is completely unavoidable. Timed with crystal frags, which is not technically a delayed burst but has a travel time, and with endless fury procced, and maybe a charged light attack immediately following your frags the enemy is likely dead. At a distance it is likely you can see the frags coming at you and you can block or dodge it, but the closer the Magsorc is the less time you have of reacting to that frag. Most people know that when that second haunting curse is about to explode on you your best bet is dodging or holding block regardless because a frag is likely to come your way. However, Magsorcs have that unblockable streak stun that they can use on you right before their curse is about to explode so they have you stunned while they let that frag fly.

Wardens have a delayed burst, delayed CC, a CC'd ultimate if they choose to run it over the better onslaught. None of it is guaranteed. Most of the time Wardens whiff one if not multiple skills during fights over and over again. A warden only ever kills someone if they can hit you with everything. To say that there is no counter is lazy.

2) Every class has buffs they maintain, but Warden has more, and if one isn't up, they are dead. Warden also has the least offensive pressure because they rely on their burst combo to kill you and when their buffs run out they need to completely stop attacking you in order to reapply them.

3) A Warden with shimmering on their bar is likely giving up falcon's swiftness, which is a huge hit to their damage, or vines/green lotus, a huge hit to their healing and survivability as well as their damage. When a warden chooses their kit they have to choose between damage and healing. Shimmering is used for the heroism it gives, and having that on their bars makes them super reliant on waiting for their ultimate to kill people, more than they already are.

4) Dizzy swing, dawnbreak, and whirlwind is an impossble combo. But shalks with dizzy, ultimate, execute or shalks, birds, ultimate, whirlwind are the popular ones. The dual wield spec can also run the swarm dot which can help a little with pressure but not that much. There is absolutely a counter though: continued mobility/positioning, knowing when to be defensive during warden's burst windows and offensive when their reapplying their buffs... stunning a warden when their buffs are gone = goodbye. Offensive pressure through passive bleeds and dots are a big counter to warden.

Every class is more powerful when there are two of them coordinating bursts. If two wardens hit you with their full delayed bursts they can wipe groups, but only if they all have their skills timed at the exact same time and multiple people are choosing to stand directly in front of them. Going up against two wardens when you're in a group all you have to do is be moving around in all different directions so they can only target one person at a time, and that person just needs to roll dodge through them, utilize the environment for LOS, CC one or both to stop their burst attempt(s), etc.

No matter how long of a wall of text you write, that does not and will not change the fact that since the moment the Warden class has been introduced into this game, in particular the stamina version, it has been top tier. Not average. Not decent. Top tier.

And lol at how the poor Warden is somehow dead if she doesn't keep up their buffs! Because the sorcerer who doesn't keep up their shields is going to do just fine, right? Or if wardens use the one defensive skill in the game that somehow has escaped the ZOS nerf bat, they have to give up something else. As if this is somehow a unique disadvantage to Wardens.

This doesn't mean I want them nerfed, but unless you're a PvE magicka DPS, the idea that this class is hard to play or has not been consistently strong is laughable.

Shanehere

Iskiab wrote: »

Well, still don’t think Wardens are OP, but I agree that some of the same old tired things people say about the class are nonsense.

Ever noticed how people start a game on whatever class and gravitate towards DK, Warden, Sorc or Templar (or Necro in large scale)? BS aside, people who talk up the weaknesses are being disingenuous. There’s a reason people eventually make the switch from other classes, no matter how much BS they spew to try and convince others there’s no advantage.

You listed 5 out of the 6 total classes, so yeah I think a bunch of people are going to play those classes.

And I really don't think people who play Wardens are being disingenuous when they say that their burst is crazy, but it is hard to land against someone who knows what they're doing and are keeping their defenses up, especially this patch with how tanky everyone is. Can you lmao faceroll people who are unaware and aren't being active? Absolutely. This is why they are so strong in groups, because most of the time you can't see their bursts coming, or people think that because they are stacked with their groups they are safe from being bursted.

Try and 1v1 on a Warden and you will quickly realize that you can have every buff in the game but in the end it won't matter if the enemy knows how to move and evade your burst line.

Or, try dueling a Stam Warden, even a really good one will miss burst attempts against you.

Iskiab

Shanehere wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Well, still don’t think Wardens are OP, but I agree that some of the same old tired things people say about the class are nonsense.

Ever noticed how people start a game on whatever class and gravitate towards DK, Warden, Sorc or Templar (or Necro in large scale)? BS aside, people who talk up the weaknesses are being disingenuous. There’s a reason people eventually make the switch from other classes, no matter how much BS they spew to try and convince others there’s no advantage.

You listed 5 out of the 6 total classes, so yeah I think a bunch of people are going to play those classes.

And I really don't think people who play Wardens are being disingenuous when they say that their burst is crazy, but it is hard to land against someone who knows what they're doing and are keeping their defenses up, especially this patch with how tanky everyone is. Can you lmao faceroll people who are unaware and aren't being active? Absolutely. This is why they are so strong in groups, because most of the time you can't see their bursts coming, or people think that because they are stacked with their groups they are safe from being bursted.

Try and 1v1 on a Warden and you will quickly realize that he can have every buff in the game but in the end it won't matter if the enemy knows how to move and evade your burst line.

Or, try dueling a Stam Warden, even a really good one will miss burst attempts against you.

Yea, but it’s a frontal cone. Side stepping it is easy... in melee range, the same range as Warden cc and snares.

I’m not saying it’s easy mode, DKs do well against Wardens, but it’s not that much of a disadvantage. It’s more like it’s easy to dodge 1v1, and usually hits in group play where people can’t focus on the individual skills of all opponents. It’s pretty easy to land with more players and the further away the player is.

Shanehere

Joy_Division wrote: »

No matter how long of a wall of text you write, that does not and will not change the fact that since the moment the Warden class has been introduced into this game, in particular the stamina version, it has been top tier. Not average. Not decent. Top tier.

And lol at how the poor Warden is somehow dead if she doesn't keep up their buffs! Because the sorcerer who doesn't keep up their shields is going to do just fine, right? Or if wardens use the one defensive skill in the game that somehow has escaped the ZOS nerf bat, they have to give up something else. As if this is somehow a unique disadvantage to Wardens.

This doesn't mean I want them nerfed, but unless you're a PvE magicka DPS, the idea that this class is hard to play or has not been consistently strong is laughable.

Never ever said Warden was not great in so many aspects. I think I've mentioned a few times how easy it is to kill people against players who don't know what they're doing. Me talking about their main weakness, which affects them mostly in 1v1 situations, is the lining up of their burst combos. Telling people in the "Nerf Warden" thread how they could counter them is not me saying that the class is weak or not strong. I'm saying that it is beatable.

And the buff statement I made was a mistake, I'll admit. I meant to say keeping your buffs up in general. This is more-so for Warden because of how much they actually maintain.

But yeah, a Sorc who is spamming shields and streaking away without boundless or crit surge up for a few seconds actually can survive... not sure what you meant there.

Raudgrani

It sad to see the "... is OP" thing, about every class. Unfortunately, ZOS seems to listen to this (and nothing else really) for some reason, and eventually you'll see your current main toon being nerfed to bits and pieces in the next update. It killed the game (yes, not "is killing", because it already did) - over and over again. Behind those "OP" characters, is generally a decent player, and he will switch to something else for you to complain about.

As for wardens, I ran a really fun one earlier. S&B/Bow, with Ranger's Gait and Bonepirate (5/1/1). When solo, I used Bloodspawn, and for group I ran Balorgh (for the frosty ulti, of course). It was really fun solo. I didn't really drop people on industrial scale, but I had excellent sustain, and could take some serious beating. It was one of those few toons I've had, where I could actually get away when being "zerged down". Like when some 5-10 guys drop all they have on you, and you just CC break and head for LOS.
I had some good 1v1 on that one, no insane bursts like shalks and spin2win, but actually more or a race about resource management, like duels used to be.

So well yeah, wardens can be used to build either very tanky small scale tools, or large group team players. I liked the "Cyrodiil adventurer" approach a lot. Felt rare that I could pick fights, and just get the **** out of there if it was too much for me. I'm more "all in" otherwise, either I do them or I don't. :-)

MentalxHammer

Oh boy "shimmering shield is the most OP skill on the game" must be a mag sorc or snipe spammer. All credibility lost.

kaithuzar

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Oh boy "shimmering shield is the most OP skill on the game" must be a mag sorc or snipe spammer. All credibility lost.

I have the symbol for "nightblade" as my forum avatar captain obvious; and I play magicka nightblade at that.
Know what that means? Even my execute, impale "x200% extra dmg", is counted as a "projectile" which means I have basically 0 kill potential against a warden with shimmering.

Heimpai

kaithuzar wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Oh boy "shimmering shield is the most OP skill on the game" must be a mag sorc or snipe spammer. All credibility lost.

I have the symbol for "nightblade" as my forum avatar captain obvious; and I play magicka nightblade at that.
Know what that means? Even my execute, impale "x200% extra dmg", is counted as a "projectile" which means I have basically 0 kill potential against a warden with shimmering.

And yet I still kill wardens on my mag classes

Trancestor

Never had an issue againt shimmering really, not many wardens spam it that much, old wings were wayyyy worse. On a magden its not even worth slotting most of the time due to bar space constraints. My issue with warden is mainly stamden rn that shouldnt really get a free purge or a purge at all tbh, and the amount of free damage they can have just from slotting skills. Magden gets the same free dmg but its offensive kit is so bad and lacks synergy that it pretty much needs it to kill anything, Stamden doesnt need it.

MartiniDaniels

Warden vampire with cc-immunity tools is literally immortal in 1v1 (with exception of mag-DK of course). At 40% HP his HPS is boosted, his resistance is boosted, and unless you use some bugged cc like fear or knockback there is no chance to outdps his vigor. And this is against melee builds ofc, ranged are just neutered by shimmering shield.
Really, something should be done about stacking undeath (and optionally pariah, though pariah is big sacrifice to your own dps of course) + accelerating growth. You don't need big brain or skill just to combine this 3 (vampire+pariah+warden) and became immortal unless feared by high dps player in precise moment. (but here warden can pop cc-immunity pot when he see ulti is going off and then roll-dodge and here we are immortality continues).

Of course pariah warden doesn't output large damage, but imagine this is smallscale (3-4) group of pariah wardens with permafrost stacking.. this is clear 100% barely counterable cheeze which is easy to play and very hard to counter play.

You may say L2P whatever, but I bet you daily see this wardens who became immortal at execution stage. I have nothing against "immortal" builds which require skill to play. This immortality doesn't require any other skill then popping cc-immunity pot in right moment.

Xvorg

Trancestor wrote: »

Never had an issue againt shimmering really, not many wardens spam it that much, old wings were wayyyy worse. On a magden its not even worth slotting most of the time due to bar space constraints. My issue with warden is mainly stamden rn that shouldnt really get a free purge or a purge at all tbh, and the amount of free damage they can have just from slotting skills. Magden gets the same free dmg but its offensive kit is so bad and lacks synergy that it pretty much needs it to kill anything, Stamden doesnt need it.

Old wings just reflected DMG on a class that lacks ranged options. I don't see how that's worst than absorbing 13 K dmg, regaining +800 magicka per projectile absorbed and also geting Major (not minor, MAJOR) heroism.

I mean, if wings were so good, why doesn't Warden use the morph that reflects dmg?

Anyway, I don't want this skill to be nerfed, but looking at it makes you think about double standards....

xylena

Shimmering Shield is good for the game. It's powerful, but also expensive, and doesn't block secondary effects like stuns or debuffs. If anything, we need even more counters to all the brainless zero risk ranged spam coming from inside zergs and atop keep walls. DK wings should get their reflect back and be able to leap into keeps again.

All these "never nerf anything" posts are just as dumb as saying "nerf Wardens" though.

katorga

Shimmering is the "Most OP Thing in the Game"? Wait, I though matriarch heal is the "Most OP Thing in the Game"? Or was it Onlsaught, or maybe DK Leap, or Boneyard Synergy, or Sorcs, or Templars, or tanks, or heals.

Sheesh. There are so many conflicting threads, what it really means is that players are gaming the forums to get unfair advantage through nerfs.

Trancestor

Xvorg wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Never had an issue againt shimmering really, not many wardens spam it that much, old wings were wayyyy worse. On a magden its not even worth slotting most of the time due to bar space constraints. My issue with warden is mainly stamden rn that shouldnt really get a free purge or a purge at all tbh, and the amount of free damage they can have just from slotting skills. Magden gets the same free dmg but its offensive kit is so bad and lacks synergy that it pretty much needs it to kill anything, Stamden doesnt need it.

Old wings just reflected DMG on a class that lacks ranged options. I don't see how that's worst than absorbing 13 K dmg, regaining +800 magicka per projectile absorbed and also geting Major (not minor, MAJOR) heroism.

I mean, if wings were so good, why doesn't Warden use the morph that reflects dmg?

Anyway, I don't want this skill to be nerfed, but looking at it makes you think about double standards....

How can you actually not see the difference its amazing...reflect is way better than just "absorb", besides preventing the direct hit dmg, wings also prevented the secondary effects like the dots, status effects and stuns AND it REFLECTED IT BACK at the attacker, who got hit with the full force of their own attacks, you can still stun someone using shimmering, you can still apply a bunch of stuff on them, but a ranged build vs a wing spamming dk would be locked down. A Warden can spam shimmering but besides staying alive in a duel it wouldn't do much, a magdk could spam wings and stay offensive af. Btw ONE forcepulse destroys the whole shimmering.

Xvorg

Trancestor wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Never had an issue againt shimmering really, not many wardens spam it that much, old wings were wayyyy worse. On a magden its not even worth slotting most of the time due to bar space constraints. My issue with warden is mainly stamden rn that shouldnt really get a free purge or a purge at all tbh, and the amount of free damage they can have just from slotting skills. Magden gets the same free dmg but its offensive kit is so bad and lacks synergy that it pretty much needs it to kill anything, Stamden doesnt need it.

Old wings just reflected DMG on a class that lacks ranged options. I don't see how that's worst than absorbing 13 K dmg, regaining +800 magicka per projectile absorbed and also geting Major (not minor, MAJOR) heroism.

I mean, if wings were so good, why doesn't Warden use the morph that reflects dmg?

Anyway, I don't want this skill to be nerfed, but looking at it makes you think about double standards....

How can you actually not see the difference its amazing...reflect is way better than just "absorb", besides preventing the direct hit dmg, wings also prevented the secondary effects like the dots, status effects and stuns AND it REFLECTED IT BACK at the attacker, who got hit with the full force of their own attacks, you can still stun someone using shimmering, you can still apply a bunch of stuff on them, but a ranged build vs a wing spamming dk would be locked down. A Warden can spam shimmering but besides staying alive in a duel it wouldn't do much, a magdk could spam wings and stay offensive af. Btw ONE forcepulse destroys the whole shimmering.

Can you block, dodge, absorbe, stop with a shield, mitigate, proc a set that works on dmg received, cloak etc the reflected projectile?

You know why reach was nerfed? Wings were their direct counter. The following patch the skill was abused, and it ended up being nerfed.

Reflecting projectiles was the mechanic accused of being the first offender against mageblades... after wings were nerfed have you seen any succesful mageblade?

A warden can spam shivering, fill up his ulti counter and then do much more dmg than a reflected projectile.

Dealing with wings was a l2p issue. I don't deny it was a good way to feed on potatoes and that the complaints against wings were carried on mostly by potatoes. Maybe the skill should have been toned down, but never destroyed, because that destruction at the end impacted negatively in all classes with the nerf to reach.

Nevertheless, any seasoned player in this game that has played more than a couple of weeks will tell you that shimmering is miles away of old wings, because despite wings was an annoying skill, it had counterplay. Shimmering has no counterplay, the extra magicka, the major heroism and the 13k dmg absorbed (in an evironment with BS) will always work.

And even with that, I'm against a nerf to Shimmering Shield, because nerfing identity traits in this game is one of the most stupid occurrences somo potatos have come up with. I don't want Wardens to be taken away from their identity as it happened to old mageblades and mDKs.

Asardes

DK wings don't reflect anymore, they were changed a couple of patches back:
Protective Plate: Flex your scales, reducing damage taken from projectiles by 50% for 6 seconds. Gain immunity to snares and immobilizations for 2 seconds.
Dragon Fire Scale : ]Flex your scales, reducing damage taken from projectiles by 50% for 6 seconds. When you are hit with a projectile, you retaliate by launching a fiery orb at the attacker that deals X Flame Damage. This effect can occur once every half second.

It has about the same cost as Shimmering Shield, about 3.6-3.7K Magicka, but it's weaker in every way
Shimmering Shield: Spin a shield of ice around you, absorbing up to Y damage from 3 projectiles. Each time you absorb a projectile you restore 831 Magicka and gain Major Heroism for 6 seconds, granting you 3 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds.

The 2nd morph is almost identical in effect to Dragon Fire Scale, ice damage instead of fire, Slab is cheaper since it returns 2.5K magicka, so the effective cost is just ~1K.
Crystallized Slab: Spin a shield of ice around you, absorbing up to Y damage from 3 projectiles. Each time you absorb a projectile you restore 831 Magicka and launch an icy bolt back at the enemy, dealing X Frost Damage. This effect can occur every half second.

IMO Shimmering Shield is OK, Protective Plate is weak, so IMO the solution is to buff the latter, rather than nerf the former.

Iskiab

If they nerf shimmering there’ll be an explosion of bowtards. Does anyone want that?

I think tweaks to the game would be better. Make melee magblades decent and give them decent non-projectile attacks. Should be good enough.

Ragnarock41

Ah yes, after wings is gutted, the next one on the ''Pls nerf'' list is shimmering shield

Truth is you sorc/magblade mains are full of bias and will ask for nerfs to anything and everything that you can't pew pew against.

Heimpai

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ah yes, after wings is gutted, the next one on the ''Pls nerf'' list is shimmering shield

Truth is you sorc/magblade mains are full of bias and will ask for nerfs to anything and everything that you can't pew pew against.

I main magblade but I also have a stamblade/stamden/stamplar/magdk/magsorc
Shimmering isn't an issue on any class I play