Should gap closers stun

CompM4s

Another l2p thread😂😂

kalunte

leap is overloaded, as for gapcloser stunning or not. well.. Ask for the sake of Holy redundancy why some have multiple stuns in their toolkit while other dont.

ps: leap is definatly overloaded.

BNOC

kalunte wrote: »

leap is overloaded, as for gapcloser stunning or not. well.. Ask for the sake of Holy redundancy why some have multiple stuns in their toolkit while other dont.

ps: leap is definatly overloaded.

Probably for the same reason that all except 1 have roots, some have unblockable cc's that others don't and some have movement speed built in that others don't. If everyone had the same things, what'd be the point.

iCaliban

Your opinion is deeply foolish for several reasons OP.

1) Ultimates stun, the ONLY damaging ults that do not stun, are very cheap or have excessively high tooltips (sweeps, incap, and soul strike)
2) yes templar gap closer is a bit overtuned, but removing the stun is not the solution. Off balance removal, or cost increase are far more reasonable solutions. In order to use this stun a templar must get into melee range, which is dangerous for a relatively slow class.

The only way to balance leap without the stun would be to lower the cost to 80 something, and increase the damage. Which, im would be lovely for balance. /s

Deathlord92

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Hi all, it is my belief that gap closer should never stun. I believe the gameplay is simply to strong for toppling charge and dk leap. Here's why, templar and dk as a class have amazing snare elements to their damage move set. But they also have some of the best cc in game with fossilize and javelin. It is my belief that a player shouldn't get so much utility for 1 single move. In most cases based on the distance is simply way to hard to react to these moves. Stun as a mechanic is meta in pvp. I believe these abilities are over preforming base on the class having snares on attack moves and guarantee ways in on dk leap. Despite an opponent keep away game.

Don’t you know mate it’s ok for templars, wardens and dks to be op and have everything nbs and sorcs are the only classes that get nerfs and must suck.

kalunte

@iCaliban are you serious?

talking about Leap: it is the single hitting Ult that have the highest base dmg tooltip, regardless aoe or single target. leap just cannot be defended by anyone whatever way you look at it.

About OP, well, not all classes should have everything in their base skill line. still if some has to be hammered by the "Redundancy hammer". all 6 should be. not only those who are being cryed at.

Goregrinder

Is the Right-Click button on your mouse broken? Or do you just have a very very slow reaction time?

phoenixkungfu

Just to make it clear. I'm not really calling for class nerfs. I'm calling for gameplay balace there is a major difference. I'm NOT focusing on if a class is overpowered in this post. I am discussing the gameplay of should gap closers should stun. Gameplay can effect class balance. However if is my opinion that gap closer should never stun. In term of game design and fundamental of combat gameplay.

xWarbrain

kalunte wrote: »

talking about Leap: it is the single hitting Ult that have the highest base dmg tooltip, regardless aoe or single target. leap just cannot be defended by anyone whatever way you look at it.

Ice Comet is a higher tooltip I think. For Ice Comet, hold block. For Leap, hold Block, or Roll Dodge. Neither do any damage if you L2P.

Bullseyebudx

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Hi all, it is my belief that gap closer should never stun. I believe the gameplay is simply to strong for toppling charge and dk leap. Here's why, templar and dk as a class have amazing snare elements to their damage move set. But they also have some of the best cc in game with fossilize and javelin. It is my belief that a player shouldn't get so much utility for 1 single move. In most cases based on the distance is simply way to hard to react to these moves. Stun as a mechanic is meta in pvp. I believe these abilities are over preforming base on the class having snares on attack moves and guarantee ways in on dk leap. Despite an opponent keep away game.

Gap closers shouldn’t stun no, ESPECIALLY not if they deal damage.

Leap is the exception, it’s limited via ultimate cost.

Leap is borderline spammable though at 110 ultimate which is why it’ll continue to get pooled in with other gap closers.

I still think it needs a slight cost increase compared to other ultimates; 150 seems more appropriate, with the cost reduced version at 135.

Stun abilities that have no counter play on the other hand while also double dipping your stamina pool are a different subject.

Sanguinor2

Bullseyebudx wrote: »

Gap closers shouldn’t stun no, ESPECIALLY not if they deal damage.

Leap is the exception, it’s limited via ultimate cost.

Leap is borderline spammable though at 110 ultimate which is why it’ll continue to get pooled in with other gap closers.

I still think it needs a slight cost increase compared to other ultimates; 150 seems more appropriate, with the cost reduced version at 135.

Stun abilities that have no counter play on the other hand while also double dipping your stamina pool are a different subject.

110 ult borderline spammable, lmao now I heared it all. Also fyi leap base cost is 125, only 1 Morph has the 110 cost.
Towards the borderline spammable, if you want to spam take flight (110 ult Morph) it has a 31 second cooldown under PERFECT cicrumstances, hardly spammabe now is it?

NBrookus

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Just to make it clear. I'm not really calling for class nerfs. I'm calling for gameplay balace there is a major difference. I'm NOT focusing on if a class is overpowered in this post. I am discussing the gameplay of should gap closers should stun. Gameplay can effect class balance. However if is my opinion that gap closer should never stun. In term of game design and fundamental of combat gameplay.

You ARE calling for class nerfs, and conveniently don't want the exact same function on a non ultimate skill removed from your own class. (Nor, it seems, from 1H&S)

Abyssmol

BNOC wrote: »

Templar has more snares than it can use, most are overwritten or matched and made redundant.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

In most cases based on the distance is simply way to hard to react to these moves. Stun as a mechanic is meta in pvp.

You want to give templars roots or unblockable cc's that cannot be reacted to regardless, as compensation?

Doubt it

Lol yes let my templar have fear please...

Bullseyebudx

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Bullseyebudx wrote: »

Gap closers shouldn’t stun no, ESPECIALLY not if they deal damage.

Leap is the exception, it’s limited via ultimate cost.

Leap is borderline spammable though at 110 ultimate which is why it’ll continue to get pooled in with other gap closers.

I still think it needs a slight cost increase compared to other ultimates; 150 seems more appropriate, with the cost reduced version at 135.

Stun abilities that have no counter play on the other hand while also double dipping your stamina pool are a different subject.

110 ult borderline spammable, lmao now I heared it all. Also fyi leap base cost is 125, only 1 Morph has the 110 cost.
Towards the borderline spammable, if you want to spam take flight (110 ult Morph) it has a 31 second cooldown under PERFECT cicrumstances, hardly spammabe now is it?

You mean compared to regular abilities?
Not very.
Compared to the rest of the ultimates in the game 2 casts per minute is a spammable ultimate lol...
Buddy it’s literally the lowest costed ultimate in the game besides Soul Harvest at 70 ult. 😂
With Potentates you’re at 94 ult.
It’s on par with Soul Tether and it costs 25-40 less ultimate give me a break.

jcm2606

Bullseyebudx wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Bullseyebudx wrote: »

Gap closers shouldn’t stun no, ESPECIALLY not if they deal damage.

Leap is the exception, it’s limited via ultimate cost.

Leap is borderline spammable though at 110 ultimate which is why it’ll continue to get pooled in with other gap closers.

I still think it needs a slight cost increase compared to other ultimates; 150 seems more appropriate, with the cost reduced version at 135.

Stun abilities that have no counter play on the other hand while also double dipping your stamina pool are a different subject.

110 ult borderline spammable, lmao now I heared it all. Also fyi leap base cost is 125, only 1 Morph has the 110 cost.
Towards the borderline spammable, if you want to spam take flight (110 ult Morph) it has a 31 second cooldown under PERFECT cicrumstances, hardly spammabe now is it?

You mean compared to regular abilities?
Not very.
Compared to the rest of the ultimates in the game 2 casts per minute is a spammable ultimate lol...
Buddy it’s literally the lowest costed ultimate in the game besides Soul Harvest at 70 ult. 😂
With Potentates you’re at 94 ult.
It’s on par with Soul Tether and it costs 25-40 less ultimate give me a break.

Have you actually looked at other ults? Here.

Death Stroke, 70 ult. Radial Sweep, 75 ult. Overload, 75 ult to activate (can offer decent damage when used right). Dawnbreaker, 125 ult (same base cost as leap).

And in no way is it "on par with Soul Tether".

For starters, Soul Tether offers a little less damage (using the tooltip given on the UESP pages, which would likely have the same stats, Soul Tether deals 9841 damage, while Ferocious Leap deals 1159 damage, and Take Flight deals 13341 damage), in exchange for a solid HoT.

Soul Tether is also on a class that has extremely high ult gen, so although Soul Tether and leap have the same base costs, you'll get your Soul Tether much faster than you'd get a leap. In effect, this makes Soul Tether even cheaper.

EDIT: Also, 25-40 less ult? Hang on, the ***? They both have the same base cost of 125 ult. Take Flight reduces the ult cost by 15, bringing it down to 110 ult. That is all.

Ragnarock41

BNOC wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Toppling Charge, I can see, but leap? ... What? So many things wrong with this post.

Firstly, it's an ultimate. Ultimates are on a limited resource pool, and so should have a higher value budget. In other words, you should get more power out of an ultimate, compared to a regular skill, since you can't immediately re-cast an ultimate if your first cast somehow fails, unless you're on a full ultgen build.

Secondly, due to it being an ultimate, and due to it being on a limited resource pool, you can't treat it the same as Topping Charge. Toppling Charge, you can just spam to gap close and stun in one button. Leap? You use it once, and that's it, can't use it again. You're giving up the combo potential of it, just to gap close and/or stun.

Thirdly, it's on a melee class that crutches on comboing with their ults, so that "giving up the combo potential" hurts. If I leap you to get to you, unless you're an actual potato, I can't do anything to you until I've got another leap ready. So, by using it as a gap closer, I am losing something -- the ability to immediately kill you after I gap close.

It honestly seems like this post was made by someone who just saw that DK's have a gap close, burst skill and stun in one skill, and went "wow, that's OP, they should remove that!" I can guarantee that if you were to actually spend some time on DK, you'd quickly realise how you really don't have a gap close, burst skill, and stun in one skill. Rather, you only have two of these, the third is sacrificed, just due to how the class works.

He's a lightning and overload heavy attacking pet sorc, don't even waste your breathe. There should be some kind of requirement in game for you to discuss class mechanics on the forums, we could weed this stuff out.

Despite all the VERY obvious counterplay against dragon leap, this threat successfully baited a few more people into LITERALLY , UNIRONICALLY asking for a take flight nerf.

I'd say this is a good opportunity for you to watch and observe human behaviour. If nothing else. This is called the dunning kruger effect and these players truly believe if not for the leap's stun they would have won.

This happens a lot in games that reward the player for not putting in effort, and petsorc, for years have been a very good example of a playstyle that gets ALL the reward for putting the least amount of work.

phoenixkungfu

Pet sorcerer I have to defend. With years on years of no representation. No one to speak for them. Well I do. Pets sorcerer has been in my opinion over nerf to the point that dk guarantee dot damage does more damage then pets. Pets can be snare, stun. Dodge are simply out run. Try going in pvp and relying on a true pure pet sorcerer build. Of all class skills, Of two pet dots, a monster set and ultimate. Now compare the same of a dk two dots (more bar) monster set and ultimate. The dk will win at over 500% success rate easily. I strongly disagree. It's super hard in pvp to be effective with 2 pets compare to other classes.

The easy pet sorcerer come from animation cancel post over the years that have made popular idea that light attack weaving takes more skill then heavy attack weaving. Well I'm here to tell you the fact the most dangerous position in the game is during a heavy attack. You committed to a action take takes longer. The longer the action the more risk. During like attack weaving your provide with way more opportunities to counter play mechanics of offense be it player or computer with defense.

The truth is most players dont like this challenge and would like in most term fast gameplay. Or light attack canceling because its much much easier and provides much much more opportunities, to deal with defense mechanics.

phoenixkungfu

I also want to point out the popular of target dummy. The truth is they are far from the end all be all of true skill. It fact they are just proof you can hit a dummy.
But that's another story

Koensol

kalunte wrote: »

leap is overloaded, as for gapcloser stunning or not. well.. Ask for the sake of Holy redundancy why some have multiple stuns in their toolkit while other dont.

ps: leap is definatly overloaded.

What a surprise, coming from a snipeblade So, there's one ultimate that provides an excellent counter to your playstyle and it is immediately overloaded? Typical.

jcm2606

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Pet sorcerer I have to defend. With years on years of no representation. No one to speak for them. Well I do. Pets sorcerer has been in my opinion over nerf to the point that dk guarantee dot damage does more damage then pets. Pets can be snare, stun. Dodge are simply out run. Try going in pvp and relying on a true pure pet sorcerer build. Of all class skills, Of two pet dots, a monster set and ultimate. Now compare the same of a dk two dots (more bar) monster set and ultimate. The dk will win at over 500% success rate easily. I strongly disagree. It's super hard in pvp to be effective with 2 pets compare to other classes.

The easy pet sorcerer come from animation cancel post over the years that have made popular idea that light attack weaving takes more skill then heavy attack weaving. Well I'm here to tell you the fact the most dangerous position in the game is during a heavy attack. You committed to a action take takes longer. The longer the action the more risk. During like attack weaving your provide with way more opportunities to counter play mechanics of offense be it player or computer with defense.

The truth is most players dont like this challenge and would like in most term fast gameplay. Or light attack canceling because its much much easier and provides much much more opportunities, to deal with defense mechanics.

The thing is, pets offer so much, that something had to give. Assuming you went with the matriarch (why would you go with the scamp/clannfear in PvP?), you had access to:

• A heal that could reach Breath of Life tooltips.
• A "DoT" that dealt good damage.
• An extra 8% max health.
• An extra 20% health and stamina recovery.
• Free line of sight that also actively messes with the targeting system, forcing opponents to unintentionally waste skill casts and resources on a pet they never intended to hit.

All that, in just one thing, with most of that being passive. Something had to give.

A big part of the reasons why pet's are so bad but so good at the same time, is because they're just poorly designed. You can't control pets, they've received multiple buffs to their max health and mitigation making them much harder to kill, they teleport away whenever someone gets them on their own, and they actively mess with targeting.

If you want power put back into pets, they need to be reworked.

Make them single barred. Split the two pets between damage or healing, not both. Only allow 1 pet to be summoned at a time, but allow players to instantly switch pets by casting the other pet, when a pet is summoned (slot scamp up front for damage, matriarch on back for healing, cast to swap, with swapping being instant).

Get rid of targeting with damage skills, so players can't crutch on pets as free bodies to mess with targeting. Make pets somewhat controllable, by having them target whoever the player has highlighted with tab target. Remove the teleport away mechanic when they're alone, so the player has to actually babysit the pet if they want to use it.

phoenixkungfu

Well thx you for your opinion. I can tell by your words you believe in your opinion. Most of the when someone disagree with someone they take offense. Hopefully you dont when I say there is a very very very high probability you never played pet sorcerer for more than 1 hour. Pets without the teleport fix. WAS THE BIGGEST NIGHTMARE IN ALL OF ESO HISTORY. Pets was never by your side ever they bug out it was terrible. The teleport fix is amazing. However not everything is perfect with the teleport fix mainly the issue is it gives away your position during stealth. You might think who uses stealth and pets. Well when your a 247 day pet sorcerer you get very creative with builds. Which is the true fun of playing how you want. It would be a nice quality of life change to have pets go and stay in stealth if the player is in stealth. To be continued on topic of pets targeting.

phoenixkungfu

In terms of pet targeting, the true mind game that I truly enjoy is the mental chess element of choice on the opponent and defender. When you play pet sorcerer at a high level your point of veiw change. You see pets as chess peices to be sacrificed protected or as defenders. To me and my point of veiw I can charge in and attack on any class and watch my health bar and make decisions. The extra element of unique and rewarding gameplay is to also be a general of my pets health bar and make decisions accordingly. Unfortunately with pets damage nerf extremely low. In pvp the balance of players decisions to attack pet or player is almost always to attack player. These is a reflection of pets simply not being a threat at all by having enough damage. The gameplay is and mini mind game of choice is gone. This was the true unique playstyle that is 1 of a kind from any game I HAVE EVER PLAYED. and without a doubt why I have played pet sorcerer for 247 days no matter the nerfs. The gameplay of pet sorc is extremely unique.

juhislihis19

Toppling Charge and Leap shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Other one is instant cast, other one is an ultimate, takes about 30 seconds to get it up?

I think this whole thread showcases extreme bias towards their main classes. Toppling Charge and an ultimate is too much but Streak isn't?

As for OP, yes, you are asking for nerfs. This is a nerf thread in every way except in name. Just hiding that behind the term "balance gameplay".

And can you eloborate why Streak is okay when an ultimate and Toppling aren't? It's a gap closer, which stuns AND deals damage.

I believe I am wasting my time here because th usual forum-bias is extremely thick here.

BNOC

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

In terms of pet targeting, the true mind game that I truly enjoy is the mental chess element of choice on the opponent and defender. When you play pet sorcerer at a high level your point of veiw change. You see pets as chess peices to be sacrificed protected or as defenders. To me and my point of veiw I can charge in and attack on any class and watch my health bar and make decisions. The extra element of unique and rewarding gameplay is to also be a general of my pets health bar and make decisions accordingly. Unfortunately with pets damage nerf extremely low. In pvp the balance of players decisions to attack pet or player is almost always to attack player. These is a reflection of pets simply not being a threat at all by having enough damage. The gameplay is and mini mind game of choice is gone. This was the true unique playstyle that is 1 of a kind from any game I HAVE EVER PLAYED. and without a doubt why I have played pet sorcerer for 247 days no matter the nerfs. The gameplay of pet sorc is extremely unique.

I know you said you play at a high level, but from reading your self described play style on about 7 different threads, I'm positive that's not the case.

You keep talking about "mental chess and choices" well, you have plenty of choices and moves to make; it's just a shame posting on the forums is the option you went for.

Everyone on the forums appreciates a good chat about things in game, but I think personally you should go and get more experience and come start another thread when you know more about it if it's still a hot topic for you (same applies to your other discussions). Maybe come back when you are playing sorc at the high level you mentioned.

juhislihis19 wrote: »

And can you eloborate why Streak is okay when an ultimate and Toppling aren't? It's a gap closer, which stuns AND deals damage.

I believe I am wasting my time here because th usual forum-bias is extremely thick here.

Aye, it's unblockable, can be used as a gap creator as well.and the stun is AOE - I believe we've all wasted our time haha.

jcm2606

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Hopefully you dont when I say there is a very very very high probability you never played pet sorcerer for more than 1 hour.

On the contrary, I used to use the matriarch on my magsorc a while back, before they nerfed it, because I preferred the way the burst heal felt, compared to just straight shield stacking and kiting.

It's more that I've had a lot of experience on the other side, and have ran into some of the very troublesome issues that pets bring to the table, targeting shenanigans being the main one. IMO, before anything is done to pets, auto targeting with single target damage skills has to go.

Lost count of the amount of times that I've tried to leap somebody, or tried to line up a Poison Inject to prime them with a Master bow proc, or tried to line up a Curse and clench combo on my old magsorc, only for it to hit the pet.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Pets without the teleport fix. WAS THE BIGGEST NIGHTMARE IN ALL OF ESO HISTORY. Pets was never by your side ever they bug out it was terrible. The teleport fix is amazing.

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret -- never in my life playing online games and MMO's, have I seen a pet class with such passive pets as ESO's. I'll use my other MMO, GW2, as an example.

In GW2, there's 2 main pet classes -- Ranger, and Necromancer. Mostly going to be talking about Ranger, since that's kinda what I feel Sorcerer should be like.

Basically, the GW2 Ranger allows you to choose up to 2 pets that you can take into a fight, from a wide variety of pets, and it has you basically playing off of and with your pet. It's not just some tool that sits on the side, it's a core part of the class, with many of the traits/passives and mechanics outright relying on having a pet up in order to survive.

Ranger pets come with their own set of active skills, passives, stats, and also come with a completely customisable AI, to where you can choose how your pet behaves in a fight. You can make it be overly aggressive, where it'll seek out targets on its own, or you can make it be more defensive, where it won't attack something until you do.

Ranger pets are subject to a lot of the same things players are subject to, from buffs and debuffs, to stuns and other forms of CC, even down to dying. (Though, they technically don't die, rather they enter a "disabled" state, limp back to their owner, and will go back to their "active" state once they reach their owner.) The entire playstyle of Ranger revolves around this idea, to the point where you're basically using tools to share different effects with your pet. You can mve buffs to and from your pet, you can move debuffs from your pet, you can use your pet to inflict debuffs on opponents, etc.

You play through your pet, as opposed to the pet just sitting on the side most of the time, and the entire class is designed that way. If you get sloppy and let your pet die, you actually do lose a good portion of your class's power, as that power is designed to be channeled through and with your pet.

IMO, Sorcerer should work something like that. If you choose to go full petsorc, you should have to baby sit your pets, you should be able to play through your pets and use them as an actual gameplay mechanic, rather than an actual tool. I get that ESO will be quite limiting in that regard, due to the fact that the keybinds need to fit on a controller, but I feel like they can make it work.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

In terms of pet targeting, the true mind game that I truly enjoy is the mental chess element of choice on the opponent and defender. When you play pet sorcerer at a high level your point of veiw change. You see pets as chess peices to be sacrificed protected or as defenders.

They're not chess pieces when they actually bug out gameplay, though. They genuinely do break targeting, this is a known fact, search the forums and you'll find countless videos showing that this is a known fact. How can they be chess pieces, when they actually bug out gameplay, and cause opponents to unintentionally waste resources and GCD's on something they never, ever intended to actually hit?

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

In pvp the balance of players decisions to attack pet or player is almost always to attack player. These is a reflection of pets simply not being a threat at all by having enough damage.

On the contrary, it's because it's just not worth killing the pet. Zenimax has buffed pet mitigation and health pools multiple times, making them tankier and tankier, and that's even assuming the pet stays still, since the pet can just teleport away and jump back up to max health.

Even when you do manage to kill them, though, what have you accomplished? The rest of the Sorc kit functions just fine without them, the owner still has enough killing power to delete you if they know how. You've just taken away their main burst heal (which can be compensated by rotating shields more aggressively, or kiting harder), and some passive mitigation due to targeting shenanigans, and that's it. Meanwhile they just need to streak once or twice, buy themselves a second or two to resummon, and the pet is back.

It's just not worth killing a pet that's nothing more than a tool, when the Sorc is still 90% functional, and is an easier clap. Push more power into pets, make Sorc's have to actually play off of their pets, make killing the pet a viable way to actually shut the Sorc down, and you'd probably see more people intentionally attack the pets.

Salix_alba

So if I'm reading this correctly op is saying when a sometimes large angry heavily armed or possibly magically enchanted person tackles them that they should not get their bell rung?

Grianasteri

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Should gap closers stun?

My gap closers should, no one elses should.

5cript

People who *** against Leap never played a DK.
They NEED it, it feels good to use and is absolutely vital to their (varying) success.
Its not my main btw.

That the targeted person very briefly becomes locked in place is ***, but was introduced for technical reasons.

Leap is in a whole different category than most other "gap closers" (calling leap a gap closer is so wrong from a gameplay perspective. Who uses it to close gaps uses it WRONG)

ThePedge

No issue with Leap, take stun off Templar and SnB gap closers

sproattt

Biggest issue with Leap is being on the receiving end of one during horrible PvP performance. Roll dodge away still catches you puts you 50 ft in the air and AND the cc animation glitches as you cc break 50 ft in the air to be back on the ground in the same cc. As for blocking it, half the time it works half the time your breaking free whilst holding block either in the air 50 feet as mentioned earlier or... When you shade away and the leap stuns you at your destination only to transport you back to the DKs leap position in the same stun.

Block and roll dodge only work when the PvP performance is stable or playable.

Why certain ults have cast times where others dont is what I can't understand. Why gap closers stun set off balance where as others don't even work half the time( Ambush right now is weird and clunky since they changed it to a 10s duration of Min Vul) trying to ambush someone who's uphill or somewhat above you doesn't work, you hear the skill being activated however doesn't adjust to targets destination may be server related as above.

If you are putting cast times on ults adjust it across the board. Giving access to resources, shields and big damage STUN cheap no cast time Ult from leap, or an AOE burning light proccing Aedric Spear ult has to be on the same playing field.