Should gap closers stun

phoenixkungfu

Hi all, it is my belief that gap closer should never stun. I believe the gameplay is simply to strong for toppling charge and dk leap. Here's why, templar and dk as a class have amazing snare elements to their damage move set. But they also have some of the best cc in game with fossilize and javelin. It is my belief that a player shouldn't get so much utility for 1 single move. In most cases based on the distance is simply way to hard to react to these moves. Stun as a mechanic is meta in pvp. I believe these abilities are over preforming base on the class having snares on attack moves and guarantee ways in on dk leap. Despite an opponent keep away game.

xWarbrain

Roll dodge.

Ragnarock41

So you see it coming from 30 meters away yet can't press your right mouse button in that time frame and you ask for a nerf in return.Welcome to the forums, the right place for you to find likeminded individuals !

This is the third time this week someone implies take flight needs a nerf. Forums and their high intelligence is at work , if they say leap overperforms, then leap definitely overperforms. How dare those Dks kill you in PvP? Its completely unacceptable, my sincere apologies as a Dk main.

NBrookus

Calling an ultimate a "gap closer."

Ragnarock41

NBrookus wrote: »

Calling an ultimate a "gap closer."

Technically it is a gapcloser, It functions identically to gapclosers and suffers from the same issues gapclosers typically suffer from.

azjuwelz

Hey I'm cool with them keeping their stuns . . . if NB gets theirs back. >:-)

Sanguinor2

NBrookus wrote: »

Calling an ultimate a "gap closer."

Wait you dont leap into a sorc everytime they streak away? Or why would you put gap Closer in Quotation marks?

Ragnarock41

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Calling an ultimate a "gap closer."

Wait you dont leap into a sorc everytime they streak away? Or why would you put gap Closer in Quotation marks?

I don't think you'd want to leap into a streaking sorc, Its very likely that a chain-streak will result in a missed leap.

buttaface

Nerf thread I actually agree with, no gap closer on any class or weapon/guild line should have a stun on it... in ANY game in PvP. Seems like common sense. Make players slot both a stun and a gap closer, sacrificing a presumably defensive slot in exchange. Amazed they haven't gotten around to stripping stuns off all gap closers by now.

Sanguinor2

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I don't think you'd want to leap into a streaking sorc, Its very likely that a chain-streak will result in a missed leap.

My comment was sarcasm but yours is unfortunately true, sad that leap can still theoretically miss.

phoenixkungfu

Well I can see the dk point of veiw. I'm a pet sorc and nerfs dont feel right sometimes. However from the stand point of the opponent. Moves that provides to much utility. To the point that most players dont even understand that dk leap is a gap closer. Unfortunately says alot about how strong this gap closer is. It is a ultimate so it should be powerful but unfortunately most players are holding block and waiting on this ultimate to dk leap as gameplay. During these combo. The whole burst is build around the free stuns this provide. Which provides very little counter play. In my opinion a stun should never be on a gap closer. I'm not a dev, so I can see the difficulties in making changes. When a player is use to 2 in 1 moves. I also see how what makes the game fun is class identity. However i my opinion class identity is tank theme. I feel like eso has done a extremely amazing job at dk as a tank theme. I will even say dk is the most tanking dps in the game. In my opinion

idk

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

So you see it coming from 30 meters away yet can't press your right mouse button in that time frame and you ask for a nerf in return.Welcome to the forums, the right place for you to find likeminded individuals

This is a very good point. We have a counter to it. Some of the best players in PvP have great area awareness and reactions. That is the most important part of successful survival with this type of combat.

MrGhosty

As annoying as templars spamming can be, or getting dragon leaped over and over I don't want to see those things messed with. DKs have attrition skills, but if you can pull off the right combos you can mitigate or avoid a lot of them. Same goes for templars, These skills can be countered and I don't really want to see more nerfs to anything. If this were a post to advocate giving some additional value to other classes as well to provide some hard counters (there might be some already, i'm far from pro at pvp) I would def. be on board for that because counter play is fun, but getting other classes broken because they beat me feels bad.

NBrookus

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Well I can see the dk point of veiw. I'm a pet sorc and nerfs dont feel right sometimes. However from the stand point of the opponent. Moves that provides to much utility... When a player is use to 2 in 1 moves.

So you are okay with removing the stun off Streak, which can be used as a gap closer, doesn't require a target and can be used in any direction? Streak is spammable, too... and Leap is not.

Most skills in the game do multiple things in ways that are situationally stronger or weaker, because we can only slot 10(12). Otherwise we'd all just slot 1) the best spammable 2) the best stun 3) the best heal... etc. and that would be boring. Losing a fight because you had the wrong skills you needed for that fight is part of the chaos.

Also if you knew how often Leap hit the flappy chicken instead of the sorc you have tabbed, you'd be less envious.

Ragnarock41

NBrookus wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Well I can see the dk point of veiw. I'm a pet sorc and nerfs dont feel right sometimes. However from the stand point of the opponent. Moves that provides to much utility... When a player is use to 2 in 1 moves.

So you are okay with removing the stun off Streak, which can be used as a gap closer, doesn't require a target and can be used in any direction? Streak is spammable, too... and Leap is not.

Most skills in the game do multiple things in ways that are situationally stronger or weaker, because we can only slot 10(12). Otherwise we'd all just slot 1) the best spammable 2) the best stun 3) the best heal... etc. and that would be boring. Losing a fight because you had the wrong skills you needed for that fight is part of the chaos.

Also if you knew how often Leap hit the flappy chicken instead of the sorc you have tabbed, you'd be less envious.

Difference is you CAN'T block streak stun. Its AoE, unblockable and almost literally unavoidable.

Lokey0024

Switch it to offbalance imo. Imo CC is kinda crazy in this game as is so I'm kinda biased

phoenixkungfu

So in terms of should gap closer that have a stun. I feel that the post is getting a little off topic. Once more templar and dk have a gap closer that stun. Both gameplay of these two classes are designed to be tank dps in my opinion. Which in most situations mean while a dk or templar is doing offense they are creating defense. This is true because of a heal when attack mechanic. Also after a gap closer that stun there is very little to no delay. Making the attacker extremely positive on the next attacks. To compare steak has a 14 meter range and extremely negative on follow up. To the ultra positive gap closer of toppling charge or dk leap. Its just not the same. Hopefully the difference is shown of a getaway stun that is negative after stun on hit and a gap closer that is positive after hit.

technohic

No streak is much more powerful as you can use it to get away as well as being unblockable AOE. The gap closers also aren't THAT much more range.

And everyone can run a stun on a gap closer if they want with 1h shield.

phoenixkungfu

Furthermore dk and templar as dps tanks have a large array of snares that apply on offense. As well as guarantee damage in power dots. However with all point of veiw in mind I wouldn't mind see streak nerf more to be even more negative after stun. I truly believe gap closer should not stun.

technohic

Stop trying to just heavy attack to victory and wine about other skills.

phoenixkungfu

For the record my goal was never to create a toxic post. Hopefully you simply can see other point of veiws. With this in mind, my post was create with a goal of food for thought about gameplay. Some people like fast gameplay, some player like the feeling of being a op thanos, and some player's are like me. And like every action to have a balance counter. I can see the the hard decisions the dev have to make to balance the game. As a rule of thumb it is my opinion that gap closer should not stuns. My main reason for it is mostly bar set up and reaction time. I believe a player should have to slot it on a bar. And use a stun in a combo vs skip step by breaking combo routes and creating unreactable situations. There are unique exceptions to this but in my opinion it should never be on a tank dps character, only on a glass cannon set up.

phoenixkungfu

As much as I hate to say it. I see 1 extreme Unfortunately exception to the rule of breaking combo routes and that's attacks from stealth. I'm not a fan of snipe but I understand it as a gameplay

UrbanMonk

How about L2P and leave skills be.

I dont play (yet) Templar or DK (in a long time) and as a Magden main, I really dont care if I get a Stunn from them with Gapclosers. For over 5 years these skills have been in game and already seen a lot of changes/ nerfs/ bugs etc. For the Love of Alkosh, leave them be and STOP CRYING FOR NERF to everything that kills you.

Shouting Nerfs in name of balance is not the solution.

UrbanMonk

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I believe a player should have to slot it on a bar.

Something like DK Poop Rock you mean? Or Warden Arctic Blast? Or wait, Fossilise from DK but I'm sure you'd say these skills are very strong and should be adjusted. Specially fossilise.
Gap closers should not have stun, skills such as D swing should not have stun, slottable skills with stun are too OP. Makeup your mind what exactly do you want? Probably remove the Stun completely from game like Reflect.

phoenixkungfu

I want game balance in the form of universal combo routes. But most of all I would like to see in pvp as a meta stuns control by a direct dedicated ability that primarily function as a meta stun skill. Once again it's my belief that gap closer should never stun.

BNOC

Templar has more snares than it can use, most are overwritten or matched and made redundant.

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

In most cases based on the distance is simply way to hard to react to these moves. Stun as a mechanic is meta in pvp.

You want to give templars roots or unblockable cc's that cannot be reacted to regardless, as compensation?

Doubt it

Chilly-McFreeze

buttaface wrote: »

Nerf thread I actually agree with, no gap closer on any class or weapon/guild line should have a stun on it... in ANY game in PvP. Seems like common sense. Make players slot both a stun and a gap closer, sacrificing a presumably defensive slot in exchange. Amazed they haven't gotten around to stripping stuns off all gap closers by now.

Ah, there it is again, the addiction to cripple all skill to do the least possible, only difference being the animations, enforcing cookie cutter builds across all classes.

And then cry again about the same logic being used to strip healing of NB's offense, the imprudent adherence of power budgets even if they lead to senseless changes or that every skill and class feels the same now.

Or am I reading to much into this and it's a simply nerf attempt on Templars and SnB again?

jcm2606

Toppling Charge, I can see, but leap? ... What? So many things wrong with this post.

Firstly, it's an ultimate. Ultimates are on a limited resource pool, and so should have a higher value budget. In other words, you should get more power out of an ultimate, compared to a regular skill, since you can't immediately re-cast an ultimate if your first cast somehow fails, unless you're on a full ultgen build.

Secondly, due to it being an ultimate, and due to it being on a limited resource pool, you can't treat it the same as Topping Charge. Toppling Charge, you can just spam to gap close and stun in one button. Leap? You use it once, and that's it, can't use it again. You're giving up the combo potential of it, just to gap close and/or stun.

Thirdly, it's on a melee class that crutches on comboing with their ults, so that "giving up the combo potential" hurts. If I leap you to get to you, unless you're an actual potato, I can't do anything to you until I've got another leap ready. So, by using it as a gap closer, I am losing something -- the ability to immediately kill you after I gap close.

It honestly seems like this post was made by someone who just saw that DK's have a gap close, burst skill and stun in one skill, and went "wow, that's OP, they should remove that!" I can guarantee that if you were to actually spend some time on DK, you'd quickly realise how you really don't have a gap close, burst skill, and stun in one skill. Rather, you only have two of these, the third is sacrificed, just due to how the class works.

BNOC

jcm2606 wrote: »

Toppling Charge, I can see, but leap? ... What? So many things wrong with this post.

Firstly, it's an ultimate. Ultimates are on a limited resource pool, and so should have a higher value budget. In other words, you should get more power out of an ultimate, compared to a regular skill, since you can't immediately re-cast an ultimate if your first cast somehow fails, unless you're on a full ultgen build.

Secondly, due to it being an ultimate, and due to it being on a limited resource pool, you can't treat it the same as Topping Charge. Toppling Charge, you can just spam to gap close and stun in one button. Leap? You use it once, and that's it, can't use it again. You're giving up the combo potential of it, just to gap close and/or stun.

Thirdly, it's on a melee class that crutches on comboing with their ults, so that "giving up the combo potential" hurts. If I leap you to get to you, unless you're an actual potato, I can't do anything to you until I've got another leap ready. So, by using it as a gap closer, I am losing something -- the ability to immediately kill you after I gap close.

It honestly seems like this post was made by someone who just saw that DK's have a gap close, burst skill and stun in one skill, and went "wow, that's OP, they should remove that!" I can guarantee that if you were to actually spend some time on DK, you'd quickly realise how you really don't have a gap close, burst skill, and stun in one skill. Rather, you only have two of these, the third is sacrificed, just due to how the class works.

He's a lightning and overload heavy attacking pet sorc, don't even waste your breathe. There should be some kind of requirement in game for you to discuss class mechanics on the forums, we could weed this stuff out.

jcm2606

BNOC wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Toppling Charge, I can see, but leap? ... What? So many things wrong with this post.

Firstly, it's an ultimate. Ultimates are on a limited resource pool, and so should have a higher value budget. In other words, you should get more power out of an ultimate, compared to a regular skill, since you can't immediately re-cast an ultimate if your first cast somehow fails, unless you're on a full ultgen build.

Secondly, due to it being an ultimate, and due to it being on a limited resource pool, you can't treat it the same as Topping Charge. Toppling Charge, you can just spam to gap close and stun in one button. Leap? You use it once, and that's it, can't use it again. You're giving up the combo potential of it, just to gap close and/or stun.

Thirdly, it's on a melee class that crutches on comboing with their ults, so that "giving up the combo potential" hurts. If I leap you to get to you, unless you're an actual potato, I can't do anything to you until I've got another leap ready. So, by using it as a gap closer, I am losing something -- the ability to immediately kill you after I gap close.

It honestly seems like this post was made by someone who just saw that DK's have a gap close, burst skill and stun in one skill, and went "wow, that's OP, they should remove that!" I can guarantee that if you were to actually spend some time on DK, you'd quickly realise how you really don't have a gap close, burst skill, and stun in one skill. Rather, you only have two of these, the third is sacrificed, just due to how the class works.

He's a lightning and overload heavy attacking pet sorc, don't even waste your breathe. There should be some kind of requirement in game for you to discuss class mechanics on the forums, we could weed this stuff out.

Not even that, just some anonymous listings of how much time you spent on each class, so we can see who's really played what. See some dude is talking about how DK or whatever is so extremely OP and has to be nerfed, only for him to maybe have a dozen hours on that class? Move right on.

Luckylancer

If they stun or slow when used on back of enemy (~10 degree angle) , it would be nice.