Those That Do Vet Trials: Prog Team

kylewwefan

My Progression team meets twice a week to work on set goals. We’re good people. Decent Players. Not particularly overpowered; we learn mechanics and play the game.

Currently we’re somewhat re-building after a little falling out. We beat the Craglorn Hardmodes, VMoL and VSS now working on VHOF.

So we’re not working on world records or anything, just trying to beat stuff. Few whacks at HoF and I’m realizing my Zaan’s monster set seems particularly bad here. We’re at the pinnacle factotum. The thing only ever seems to proc right before I immediately have to move out of range or on something that’s about dead anyways.

My raid lead suggested I go with something else then. It makes sense at least for this fight.

So I’m thinking about other things in raid setup. More specifically in Progression group. All my Bloodthirsty jewelry really. Our biggest problem is getting to within execute range.

The general consensus has been 3 bloodthirsty is maximum damage for trials . But you have to get there first. So is this just bad elitist advice? Could infused be better? Maybe a mix of BT/infused?

I have also heard that there’s very little if any difference between arcane and infused. Haven’t bothered to see for myself, only heard it were the case.

So between %100 and %25 boss health, Bloodthirsty does exactly nothing for you. This large chunk of boss fight is our prog teams Biggest problem. Am I completely off my rocker to think maybe something else could help out more here?

I’d love to hear some expert thaughts on the matters.

Sanguinor2

Bloodthirsty or infused being better depends on the fight and on the Group. In your case if you struggle to reach execute using infused or arcane is obviously better.
In General bloodthirsty is mostly used if you want faster executes, for example in vSS hm on last boss everyone runs 3 bloodthirsty because you Need execute to be over fast, the Meteors Keep spawning and will not despawn in hardmode so you have very limited time to execute the boss, same in vHoF hardmode on last boss.
If for example you want to burst Rakkhat on 3rd platform then you definitely DONT use bloodthirsty since you want him to get into execute as fast as possible not get his execute over with as fast as possible.

Its not really "bad Elitist advice" as you call it but in a static fight you will get the highest dps numbers with 3 bloodthirsty but again in actual boss fights it depends. In vAS hm for example you generally go with 3 bloodthirsty too since you want to get execute over with fast because of Trial by fire Happening but in Lokkestiiz HM for example you are better of using only 1 or no bloodthirsty since you want to try and skip ice Cages pre execute and Need adds to die fast.

kylewwefan

Wow. Excellent advice and examples. That makes good sense.

We were trying for a 5 pad Rakkhat nuke in VMoL and just about right there. I wonder if advice like this could have change the outcome? I’m almost certain it would have.

Now there would be that other dilemma. Infused or arcane/robust? Could even a piece of harmony thrown in there be worth anything?

My thaughts for progging stem from us not even getting into execute and that’s likely a learning mechanics thing as well.

Asardes

On Magicka if you can't stay melee to proc Zaan just change to the 2nd piece from another set that gives Spell Critical: Iceheart/Grundwulf/Slimecraw. If you have trouble surviving you can change Zaan completely for Iceheart for extra shield.

Sanguinor2

kylewwefan wrote: »

Wow. Excellent advice and examples. That makes good sense.

We were trying for a 5 pad Rakkhat nuke in VMoL and just about right there. I wonder if advice like this could have change the outcome? I’m almost certain it would have.

Now there would be that other dilemma. Infused or arcane/robust? Could even a piece of harmony thrown in there be worth anything?

My thaughts for progging stem from us not even getting into execute and that’s likely a learning mechanics thing as well.

I believe infused is slightly better than robust/arcane but I dont think it makes a big difference, I dont have the math Right now tho. I wouldnt use harmony but if you want to try it go ahead.

Not getting into execute is usually a learning issue, you might Need to get more familiar with mechanics, some execution might be wrong, tanks might Need more time to get used to the fight, same could be for healers or dps, you might have avoidable deaths etc. but if you Keep progressing you´ll eventually get through that.

You might also have to Change strategies if you follow some guide from a more comfortable and higher dps Group but thats something you should be able to see, using another example here: lets go with vmol again, many Groups just let the Hulk on Rakkhat die in AoE but if a Group is new they might have to Focus it down instead of killing it in AoE until they get more comfortable in the fight.

UntilValhalla13

It also might help to know what specifically about the Factotum is preventing your team from reaching execute? Is it from not prioritizing proper targets, tank missing shades, upstairs having issues, conduit/spinner issues, etc? All of these things can add up for progression groups. I've seen many groups wipe from not focusing conduits.

Sparr0w

Infused is quite a bit better than robust as stam have a lot of weapon damage modifiers from medium/fighters.

Arcane vs infused is minimal difference so I wouldn't bother tbh.

Also you're correct if you dont make it to execute BT is doing absolutely nothing for you, usually have a set of each depending on the content.

In vHOF you want exe to go quick on 1st as spheres enrage.
2nd doesn't really matter much, there's no special exe mechs other than a spinner at 40% and maybe an extra upstairs phase.
3rd you want infused as it's short burst phases (unless you dont mind doing more levers than 2, it's not a race here, just a time saver)
4th you want BT as again exe is a dps race.
Last BT since bombard gradually increases in damage so that's a DPS race too.

Since I mainly play on console my group runs BT until 2nd boss is dead, then swaps to infused for trash/3rd/trash, back to BT as the bosses are spawning on 4th (all stam group).

Just to add tho, BT vs Infused/Arcane shouldn't be the difference between a clear and a wipe, unless you're pushing like vMOL pad 3/5 or vAS ignoring a mini etc, learning the mechs and what works for your group will be the most help there.

Also as for the Zaan comment, if you're progressing & Zaan regularly breaks as you move out of mechs I'd probably just run Iceheart, as they both get the 1pc crit & the only other option would be using a 2nd 1pc crit which wont be much dps in the grand scheme of things vs an almost constant shield.

kylewwefan

Thanks for the input!

I’m not sure what exactly was causing the issues. Everything is going fine til the spinners come out, then it all goes to hell. Our support team is learning as we go along. I’m not blaming anyone or anything, we’re all learning.

It took awhile for the upstairs portal team to hammer it out, but they’re pretty solid now. As a VMoL runner, I totally get the pressure you feel when everyone is depending on you to nail it and I don’t envy or fault them one bit.

These thaughts were mostly stemming from my “BiS” monster set seeming mostly worthless in real action and how much good is the other BiS stuff really doing.

Taking Zaans off could easily drop your damage 3 to 5k. No idea how much you’d stand to lose with jewelry traits. They’re kind of a big thing.

UntilValhalla13

A few tips that I've learned from many progressions to make it easier.

-Have some dps, especially upstairs team, hold ultimates until the centurions are out and just nuke them.
-Conduits are utmost priority. They do damage, drain resources, and can be a pain if not dealt with quickly. You never want more than one up at a time.
-You can always play the safe strat with the main tank and shades, by having everyone stay south when they happen. That way the tank only has to really block 1 direction, if they're not yet comfortable blocking all 4. They also have to hold the steamer centurion if the spinner is out. Healers can hold a barrier if they get steam during shades. Very handy under 40 percent, when they're also having to hold the steamer.
-Upstairs can send 3 dps up instead of 4, and then have a healer go up to pull the last switch. Upstairs can usually call out when they're making their way to the last sphere, and the healer ports up east when it's almost dead. That keeps an extra dps downstairs to help kill stuff faster. It helps if one of them has ele drain slotted.
-Off tank just kites the spinner around the outskirts, while the dps tries to stay on the inner circle as best as they can. Don't focus the spinner at all. He eventually dies after a certain period of time.

It's not really the factotum that will kill you, unless a shade is missed or upstairs is too slow. It's everything else.

kylewwefan

Thanks for the tips. We took a holiday break with some sporadic play times, But we’re back at it again.

I switched to Illambris from Zaan’s. Seems like it’s doing better. I tried Iceheart for a minute. It’s actually usually my go to set I wear for everything. But the shields feel a bit unnecessary with a full time Healers and the damage isn’t so great in here. Because I’m not quite close enough for the pulse to hit things most times. I also thaught Grothdar would do well, but also has that close proximity issue.

Feels like I’m constantly out of magic in here. You can hit a synergy, pop a potion, full Mag bar; get hit by some lightning sparkles thing and it drops your bar right straight back to zero. Between that and being CC’d the whole time. It’s very annoying.

I’m debating swapping to a Stam toon just for that reason. But having to be that close to the action looks a bit brutal. Our guys are constantly getting clipped by stuff. They’re good players but I don’t envy the melee.

Progression

We’re fairly regularly beating the factotum now. It took a minute to figure out the engine guardian boss, but we got him on lockdown. We tried some method where the tanks hold all the ads and we just burn the boss. It doesn’t work real good. So we skip a pylon, burn down the ads and it’s no problem.

Now on to the triplets. Haven’t had a lot of face time in that fight yet but it doesn’t seem nearly as bad as the VMOL twins. We’re still learning the dance. Them lil kamikaze dudes make you have a bad day.

Noticeable Changes Made

One of our healers switched up from whatever he was wearing to Jorvalds/Gossamer. It seems to make a significant difference in survival while we learn this trial. And it has a cool effect on our characters! I assume it would still be good for the triplet fight, IDK? They change up to whatever they think is best for the group.

code65536

There's no such thing as a "BiS monster set". In vHoF, for example, the ideal monster set for a magicka DD changes with the fight.

On raptors, if you are using the burn strategy, then sure, go with Zaan.

On Pinnacle, you should be in Grundwulf. In part because of being forced out of melee as you've described. And in part because of all the magicka-drain mechanics on that fight as you've now noticed.

On the third boss, because it's a bursty fight, most people use Balorgh. Build your ult on the trash before the boss, and get the extra 1K WD/SD for the initial burst.

On triplets, most groups use Slimecraw because there is so much movement as people run around killing bombers that CP uptime will generally be poor.

It's not until the final boss that magicka DDs would put on Zaan again, and that's only if they're comfortable being in stomp range.

(In general, there's no "BiS" for gear, period; for example, a stam DD should not use Relequen on the third or fourth bosses. Everything is situational. Every boss fight is different. People need to be flexible with gear and even skill loadouts.)

UntilValhalla13

Triplets aren't that bad as long as you have 2 competent tanks and dps that have raid awareness. In our old progs, we used to stop damage on the bosses at 72/42/22, and bring them in to the middle when all 3 were around that mark.

Focusing adds is top priority. Don't dodge roll or run away from them. If one's running at you, just block.

For the execute phase, make sure everyone has ultis and dump them AFTER the the 20% shield breaks. You need to kill the middle boss asap. Dps need to stay close to the middle to avoid stationary bombers. Rez ulti can come in handy if a tank dies.

kylewwefan

*update: We have beat VHOF! Actually, twice now! First time was a four hour run time. Second time, get this; we did hard mode! And shaved 45 minute off the run.

Looks like it’s getting the nerf hammer in a few weeks, maybe that be a better time to work on achievements and stuff.

We still need to get a few more runs in to get all of our subs a clear, then next we move on to VAS.


Thanks everyone for the tips. Swapping monster sets made a significant difference. The triplets fight isn’t quite so bad if you can block the ads. The factotum is still our stumbling block...we’ve had that stupid thing to %2 left numerous times and wiped.