Still being punished for having access to dlc dungeons.

idk

I have long said the solution is both easy and logical.

Have the DLC dungeons setup as an Opt in. Those will access to the DLC dungeons that opt in get a greater reward based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to. Essentially to the top reward would be gold quality vs just purple.

For someone with access to all DLC dungeons they would get a piece of gold jewelry and gold weapon/armor which the decon value for the chance of a gold upgrade matt would be a worthy reward.

Is holds up to the Risk vs Reward as it should.

Major_Lag

The root of the problem is that many (most?) DLC dungeons on normal difficulty are as hard (or even harder) than most of the basegame dungeons on vet difficulty.
Also unlike most of the basegame dungs, the DLC dungeons feature many "soft" as well as "hard" DPS checks - which is a total disaster (even on Normal!), considering the 4-digit DPS output of the usual fake DPS potatoes.
As such, the DLC dungs are absolute PUG stompers.

This leads to the inevitable conclusion that attempting to run a DLC dungeon from the random normal pool is a game of Russian Roulette at best, and a complete waste of time at worst. Especially considering that the reward is the same as for completing a non-DLC dung instead.

DLCs from Vet Random? Forget it.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Enable solo-dungeoneering or small-party scaling?

And here's the other problem.

Most of the basegame dungeons are easily soloable with a decent build and a competent player.
Only a few are extremely difficult to solo - and even then, it's only because of their mechanics.

But the DLC dungeons?
Those are packed full of mechanics which make soloing them fundamentally impossible.
Some classes possess the tools to bypass / work around a few of those "nonsoloable" mechanics, but it's an exception rather than the rule.

If a dungeon can be soloed, then in principle it's always possible for even a single good player, who knows what they are doing, to carry a potato group through the content.
However, that simply ain't gonna happen in most of the DLC dungs.

Hapexamendios

/zone LF newb for RDD level 10-15 pref. Whisper for invite.

Major_Lag

Hapexamendios wrote: »

/zone LF newb for RDD level 10-15 pref. Whisper for invite.

Or just use a low level mule alt from your alt account (if you have one).
As soon as the queue pops, leave group on that alt so the group finder finds a replacement. Unless you can play 2 characters at the same time, of course

Which does not change the fact that queueing for random with lowbies is a workaround to a problem that shouldn't even exist in the first place.

ArchMikem

Zulera301 wrote: »

the fact that I have seen players "advertising" that they don't have DLC dungeons to encourage people to group with them says a lot about how disliked the DLC dungeons are.

an easy solution would be to give them their own section. "Random DLC Normal" and "Random DLC Veteran". That way, in the (highly unlikely) event someone wants to pug a DLC, they can do so, and if someone just wants to run a daily, they can. (I mean, random vetran and random normal give out the same rewards more or less, if I am not mistaken? I know the XP is the exact same).

I always PuG randoms. I even PuGed vet Malatar the other night on random for first time and we did it, albeit with a couple wipes.

FierceSam

It is moronic, counter productive, annoying and just wrong that players who decide to have ESO+ are randomly thrown into DLC dungeons. It’s like a cruel and unusual punishment especially made for players who have the temerity to actually want to subscribe to the game they enjoy.

It puts players who want to do these dungeons in groups with players who may never have run them ever before. They may be very capable vet HM players, but if they’ve never done the DLC before, they’re going to struggle. It’s not going to be a fun experience for them, it’s not going to be a fun experience for anyone else. It’s a bad idea made more stupid because the only way to avoid this is to cancel your sub and stop giving ZOS money.

I get that ZOS need to find cannon fodder to accompany all those players who have bought the DLC content and need bodies to come along with them, but it isn’t useful to provide them with a bunch of players who don’t want to be there. That’s just a recipe for aggravation for all parties.

FierceSam

Soella wrote: »

Why don't have two options - general random and DLC random - with higher reward. DLC dungeons require higher skill and more time, giving higher reward would be fair. They have some good gear, but mostly solo player like me has little chance to farm it. Giving more incentives to run them will help to have more groups running them, and as side benefit - more people will know their mechanics, and runs will be faster and less painful.

Hey Soella,

Well technically this is already the case. You have the general random group (the non-ESO + subscribers) and the DLC group (ESO + subscribers). Although an option in the random dungeon finder would be great.

I suspect the reason this hasn’t been implemented is threefold,

first, ZOS aren’t very good at managing the group finder at the best of times,

second, it would mean a longer wait for players, like you, who actually want to do the DLC content but haven’t got a group (not a good look for ZOS when selling the DLC dungeons),

and third, if you set the rewards high enough to encourage enough players to want to do this content, you’re going to get a number of players who can’t do the content, but want the extra reward, which puts us right back where we started - with players who want to do the content grouped with players who can’t do it.

A better option for ESO + subscribers, but not necessarily for players like you, would be to ensure the random player/character actually has completed the dungeon on the level required. That way ESO + subscribers would be able to ease themselves into DLC content at a speed that they felt comfortable with.

WiseSky

Wait you guys dont que as a fake tank then insta leave if the dungeon is not a cake walk...

Weird... but ok I guess.

Prof_Bawbag

Yeah, I stopped subbing and this was one of the main reasons why. Not the only reason, but one of them.

Some days were just spent waiting to get a vanilla dungeon. Not got time to play the dice roll when it comes to dungeons. No idea why there isn't a toggle on/off for this garbage.

I shouldn't need to find a convoluted walk round as to bypass this. So the easiest and best way to bypass it was to cancel the sub. I can still get the hist and Imp City dungeons as I bought them, but that's fine as I chose to buy them and accept I may have to do them.

Add to that, almost all the failed jumps are due to dlc dungeons. Never ever had a failed to jump when entering a vanilla dungeon, yet it happened a lot when i was placed in a dlc dungeon and the grp was more or less done with it. That is another issue and an issue that is often overlooked by many. Sometimes had no option but to leave the grp as I couldn't travel.

thorwyn

Any dungeon is easy on normal, even with an unexperienced group. I would chose Bloodroot Forge over City of Ashes 2 any time. Just bite the bullet and learn the 2-3 mechanics. All this whining is getting out of hand here on this forum. You want the advantage of having access to the monster helmets and the trials... then deal with the consequences.

illusiouk

I agree with the OP. We need a option to take us out of the DLC queue.

Khenarthi

Major_Lag wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

/zone LF newb for RDD level 10-15 pref. Whisper for invite.

Or just use a low level mule alt from your alt account (if you have one).
As soon as the queue pops, leave group on that alt so the group finder finds a replacement. Unless you can play 2 characters at the same time, of course

Which does not change the fact that queueing for random with lowbies is a workaround to a problem that shouldn't even exist in the first place.

Interesting idea, but it requires 2 computers, does it not?

TeamSeinfeld

Whenever my random pops me into a DLC dungeon, I know someone most likely was queued for it and needs the bodies. So I’m good. Yes it takes more time. But if it’s done on normal, it’s still not taking more than 30 minutes. Complex dungeons should take that long. Vet randoms are different. I know what I’m most likely getting into there, but that’s PUG life.

karekiz

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

3rd dlc dungeon in a row. Nice going ZOS, time to farm more skulls as i wait out punishment

Why are you doing Vet Random? Just do normal.

I would agree about scaling rewards for randoms with opt in. Rework the entire system at this point

Green - 500 Gold - 1/4th a CP worth xp
Blue - Transmute - Gear - 1 CP worth xp - 1K Gold
Purple - Transmute - Gear - 3 CP worth xp - 2K Gold
Gold - Transmutes X5 - Gear - 5 CP worth xp - 3K gold - 1 random Motif page <Dungeons such as ICP/WGT would include Shadows of the Hist motifs, and dungeons without a motif out yet would include previous motifs until the new versions are out to replace>


Normal - Repeat - Green
Normal - Daily - Blue
Normal DLC - Always Blue

Vet - Repeat - Blue reward
Vet - Daily - Purple
Vet - DLC Repeat - Gold - Replace Motif with Gold ring/neck
Vet - DLC - Gold



Orrrrr

Add a gatekeeper check to all vet content.

Want to run Base vet dungeons? Do 10K min
How about vet 2 dungeons? 15K min
DLC? 20K

They can gate keep themselves essentially by never taking to check, and everyone is still in the same pool of players.

FierceSam

thorwyn wrote: »

Any dungeon is easy on normal, even with an unexperienced group. I would chose Bloodroot Forge over City of Ashes 2 any time. Just bite the bullet and learn the 2-3 mechanics. All this whining is getting out of hand here on this forum. You want the advantage of having access to the monster helmets and the trials... then deal with the consequences.

I think the point being made is that some ESO+ subscribers want to subscribe but not have the 'advantage' of being randomly shunted into, say, vMHK when they're only comfortable with vCOA 2. So they are capable vet players who know the mechanics of regular dungeons and are perfectly accomplished there, but aren't ready for or don't want to do vet DLC dungeons.

It's no fun for them, and no fun for the other group members, who might be very familiar with the mechanics of the dungeon they have chosen but have little ability or time to spend coaching players in the vet mechanics, which are significantly different from those of the normal version. For instance, vBRF has mechanics which aren't in nBRF that will wipe you continuously if you're unlucky enough to have a fake tank or even a capable tank that doesn't know the mechanics.

You can subscribe to ESO+ at any level. You can get to CP300 without ever having completed a dungeon. Yet if you have done both of these, you can get thrown into vDoM when what you wanted was vWS.

And that's no good for anyone.

Taleof2Cities

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

But why would i drag random people through long boring dlc, try to teach them mechanics, see them completely ignore what is writen and fail mechanics anyway, all that and more for the same reward as i would get for a short 5 minute normal no mechanic braindead dungeon?

Don’t want to drag randoms through a DLC dungeon?

No problem.

Pro Tip #2: If you don’t want to be matched with random pugs, don’t use the dungeon finder. Period. Find a pre-made group and then queue into your specific or random dungeon.

Soella

FierceSam wrote: »

second, it would mean a longer wait for players, like you, who actually want to do the DLC content but haven’t got a group (not a good look for ZOS when selling the DLC dungeons),

and third, if you set the rewards high enough to encourage enough players to want to do this content, you’re going to get a number of players who can’t do the content, but want the extra reward, which puts us right back where we started - with players who want to do the content grouped with players who can’t do it.

A better option for ESO + subscribers, but not necessarily for players like you, would be to ensure the random player/character actually has completed the dungeon on the level required. That way ESO + subscribers would be able to ease themselves into DLC content at a speed that they felt comfortable with.

As of now, if you come to DLC normal usual situation is that someone who knows what is going on leaves right away, and group have to wait for replacement anyway. Having longer wait time upfront is less frustrating, at least for me. And among those who does not leave right away at least one does not have a cue that this dungeon require understanding of mechanics.

Higher rewards will definitely bring people who cannot do it, but I believe only once. Higher rewards for tank/healers in WoW LFG did not significantly increase number of bad tank/healers (no idea how it is now, though - played there like five years ago).

I agree that having separate queues will increase waiting time, but it would significantly increase chance to get a group which will finish it.

Having finished dungeon as prerequisite has two drawbacks. First, how to find a group for that very first run? Second, alts of experienced players don't need such restrictions.

What could make sense - some kind of "ready for hard dungeons" arena style quest - prerequisite, where a few fights with DPS/general awareness/healing check must be fulfilled. Should be like 10 minute distraction for experienced player and meaningful barrier for non prepared players.

thorwyn

I think the point being made is that some ESO+ subscribers want to subscribe but not have the 'advantage' of being randomly shunted into, say, vMHK when they're only comfortable with vCOA 2. So they are capable vet players who know the mechanics of regular dungeons and are perfectly accomplished there, but aren't ready for or don't want to do vet DLC dungeons.

No, OP's point was about random normal as you can see in the first post. Veteran dungeons are a completely different story. I fail to see a scenario, where queueing into a random veteran dungeon makes any sense whatsoever. So my point still stands: Running DLC dungeons on normal is not that difficult. Everyone can do them.

Soella

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Pro Tip #2: If you don’t want to be matched with random pugs, don’t use the dungeon finder. Period. Find a pre-made group and then queue into your specific or random dungeon.

You know that there are people who just too shy to spam zone chats, don't you? Or don't think it is appropriate to start group for the run if they cannot lead? And people who don't join guilds because they cannot make any commitments due to RL?

Sorry, but your advice is only valuable for people who - surprise! surprise! - don't need it and has zero value for everyone else.

gatekeeper13

That's the reason I stopped doing random dungeons... Imagine wanting to do a fast rnd for some XP and instead you re thrown to Imperial City Prison or LoM.

How difficult is it for them to add an extra option like "Non-DLC Random Normal Dungeon"?

adree

Raisin wrote: »

Because it's RANDOM and you don't get to CHOOSE getting the option you prefer. Random dungeon is NOT about giving you your favorite dungeon experience.Getting a reward for a "short 5 minute normal" isn't the standard, it's a very lucky draw (as will happen in a randomizer), and again not something you are entitled to.

Well it's an absolute lie. When i bring into the grp my other acc lvl 14 who dont have any dlc and pass him crown:
- dung list turns into the predictable list so its not random anymore and i choosin' dung i can play
- and second yes it bacame 5 min norm standart garanteed.
Yes the only reason for easy exp is that acc dont have any dlc.
So yeah all above from qoute is a lie.

stevenyaub16_ESO

Another "wants random dungeon reward but doesn't like doing dungeons" thread.

adree

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

How difficult is it for them to add an extra option like "Non-DLC Random Normal Dungeon"?

for such incompetent trade/sell company its impossible

Donny_Vito

People complain about not having harder content, so they add these DLC dungeons that are, guess what, harder. Now people complain about having to run these dungeons when they queue for a random dungeon. There are multiple solutions to this problem that other people have outlined, but at some point can we stop blaming ZoS for trying to listen to the people (i.e. adding harder content).

Raisin

adree wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Because it's RANDOM and you don't get to CHOOSE getting the option you prefer. Random dungeon is NOT about giving you your favorite dungeon experience.Getting a reward for a "short 5 minute normal" isn't the standard, it's a very lucky draw (as will happen in a randomizer), and again not something you are entitled to.

Well it's an absolute lie. When i bring into the grp my other acc lvl 14 who dont have any dlc and pass him crown:
- dung list turns into the predictable list so its not random anymore and i choosin' dung i can play
- and second yes it bacame 5 min norm standart garanteed.
Yes the only reason for easy exp is that acc dont have any dlc.
So yeah all above from qoute is a lie.

"Random list turns into predictable list" What does that even mean. It's still a random list, just with a much smaller pool. The only predictable thing is that you get one of the dungeons from that pool... If you're struggling to predict which dungeon you will get for random, I can help you... It's one of the dungeons available to you.

Yes, I'm sorry, you're absolutely right. You are indeed capable of manipulating the outcome of a random draw to your advantage by abusing your knowledge of the system and the fact that you have a second account. Do you want us to start complaining about that and take it away, or can you just accept that no one minds you exploiting the system like that and take it? Because it's literally you cheating the system to get an easy reward and instead of enjoying it, you get greedy and want more. I don't get a way to trick the game into locking base game dungeons out of the pool, so you're already being given an option I'm not.
I don't get to choose not to have the horrible base game dungeons in my random pool. I don't cry about it because I understand that random means an outcome I don't like. The same goes for you or anyone else. You've seen my suggestion in my origin post -- if you don't want the Dungeon DLC at all you deserve the right to opt out of it. But you don't get to have and run them and just say you don't want them for random dungeon, yeah?

It's 100k EXP or so. It's not something you can't get elsewhere. It's a reward you get for risking a bad outcome and accepting that possibility. It is not something you are entitled to. You get it if you EARN it.
No one is forcing you to run a random dungeon. You can just pick from the list and queue for that -- you get a lesser reward for that. You get the EXP and loot from running it. That is the reward you get for choosing easy+less rewarding over risky+more rewarding. Sooner or later you need to realize that you don't actually WANT to run a random dungeon.

Edit: I think perhaps what you actually want and is an idea to consider, is a special reward for the first dungeon you run per day. So just a daily dungeon reward.

Acrolas

The Undaunted event is the only time I really have an issue having DLC dungeons in the random rotation.

I think I'd rather let that content in, and let twice the number of players queue into random normal DLC instances. That would help reduce queue times for damage dealers, shorten the overall length of the dungeon run, and let even casual players pick up on boss mechanics. Veteran random should still be four players.

ELawlis

Random Dungeon finder needs a normal/DLC split, regardless of how rewards are done (kept same for both or increased rewards) just because of the time it takes to complete most DLC dungeons. There are many times that I have time for a quick dungeon before a trial/guild/event/IRL plans, but end up getting a DLC dungeon and have to beg the group to kick me so I don't get the 10 minute penalty (I main a tank so I do try to explain and apologize), or have to bail on them half way through.

I'd also say the dungeon pools need to be changed to DLC being available after level 50 if you have CP. If I'm trying to grind to CP and I'm a level 48 that still doesn't have a necessary skill morph or gear to complete (most of the time my training gear is 10-15 levels behind at that level), I shouldn't hold up another group from completing their dungeon.

Donny_Vito

ELawlis wrote: »

Random Dungeon finder needs a normal/DLC split, regardless of how rewards are done (kept same for both or increased rewards) just because of the time it takes to complete most DLC dungeons. There are many times that I have time for a quick dungeon before a trial/guild/event/IRL plans, but end up getting a DLC dungeon and have to beg the group to kick me so I don't get the 10 minute penalty (I main a tank so I do try to explain and apologize), or have to bail on them half way through.

I'd also say the dungeon pools need to be changed to DLC being available after level 50 if you have CP. If I'm trying to grind to CP and I'm a level 48 that still doesn't have a necessary skill morph or gear to complete (most of the time my training gear is 10-15 levels behind at that level), I shouldn't hold up another group from completing their dungeon.

In those times that are you running low on time, why are you queuing for a random dungeon and putting it out of your hands?

It's like when I know I have to be home in 30 minutes, but I choose to go to the bar to get food instead of going to Subway, Chipotle, etc... when I'm late, I can't blame the restaurant because they took too long. I have to blame myself because I made a bad choice.

If you know you have a limited time, then don't queue for a random dungeon. That is totally on you, not ZoS for the lack of search options in Dungeon Finder.

Raisin

ELawlis wrote: »

Random Dungeon finder needs a normal/DLC split, regardless of how rewards are done (kept same for both or increased rewards) just because of the time it takes to complete most DLC dungeons. There are many times that I have time for a quick dungeon before a trial/guild/event/IRL plans, but end up getting a DLC dungeon and have to beg the group to kick me so I don't get the 10 minute penalty (I main a tank so I do try to explain and apologize), or have to bail on them half way through.

Sorry but I think that is a ridiculous argument. If you only have a short amount of time, don't do something that might take long... Queue only specifically for short dungeons then. :x You KNOW you might get a long dungeon. You CHOOSE to take that risk. That's not the game's fault. Just accept that you have limited time and might not be able to do a random. Accept that you don't have the time to complete the task you get rewarded for, and that you thus can't be the reward at that moment. It's not the game's job to go "oh you want the reward but don't have time? have it anyway uwu"... Just... No. This is why I keep using the word entitled, as cringy as it is. You need to understand that this is a special bonus you get for doing something and if you can't do it...that's okay. It's okay to miss out on getting extra EXP.

mongoLC

Wish zos would stop making dungeons that are *** mini trials. Seriously there is to many mechanics in these dungeons I don't want to read a wall of text for mechanics for every *** dungeon. Trials I get but not dungeons.

Please zo$ we pay money stop punishing us with this ***!