HUGE DPS burst problems in group content

Darkenarlol

wow or similar $%&* games has all what you've asked for OP

(no anim cancel, shiny class skills and powahfull sets)


make your own raid team where you kick anybody who have

more than 20k dps, kick for anim cancelling and go ahead

enjoy your "mechanics" for 2 hours instead of 20 min clear


why do you ask for bringing your perverted ideas as a new

game standard instead of RPing *average wower* quietly

with your friends? maybe because you can't find even 11

more people who finds your ideas great and healthy?


you sound like a very (VERY)... let's say average player

who is jelly after seeing how best trail teams perform

and now instead of getting better himself...crying for nerfs

Shantu

Gotta love these threads from those injected with the divine intelligence to know how the game should be designed and how everyone should play it. About as useful as ZOS and their stupid nerf-a-rama. instead of spinning the latest brilliant idea of how the game is supposed to be played, perhaps some people should learn to just shut up and listen to what the majority of people truly find enjoyable.

deleted008293

@Darkenarlol
I dont want to sound rude but even through I was asked to join some vcr3 progression teams I did turned them off. Jelly? NO.
I just want to lower the ceiling between end game and entry level. Getting myself better? I think I am on a really decent level where I am already. Can't say the same about 80% of the majority eso players.
If I wanted a new game with casual play style I would go for a new game with casual style. I'm here for ESO and to enjoy my time in it.

Dagoth_Rac

Animation canceling does not need to go away. Light attack damage just needs to be reduced. Light attack weaving should be a min/max thing. Like upgrading jewelry from purple to gold. Or getting extra stat bonus from perfected versus non-perfected version of a set. Not the massive DPS buff we see where light attacks are bulk of damage. That is bonkers.

Woeler

starkerealm wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

nordmarian wrote: »

It is however a problem because you entirely skip splitting swapping and even merging them alltogether. It does seriously affect tanking skills.

Tanks have to be super good for the triplets burn because 1) without good tank debuffs, you might not make the burn 2) their attacks become far more lethal when enraged 3) everyone is stacked, so you have to be especially careful with positioning so as not to fry your dps or heals (or the other tank).

Imo the tanks (and really the group as a whole) must be far more skilled to pull that off than to simply range taunt the opposite boss every so often.

So, it's not surprising that one of the tanks Nord is citing is probably @Woeler.

I have no idea.

Munkfist

nordmarian wrote: »

@LiquidPony

Let me put it this way, if rotation takes a longer time to be applied, then a larger player base might catch up with yours. Overall this will lower the wide gap between end game and entry level. Animation cancelling is one reason for which DPS can be increased by a serious margin when done right. Skill cast times or duration can also help players with a slower rotation to catch up. Don't hate them.

Please keep in mind that I do play as a tank and not as a dd. But I do feel that having a group dps too high is affecting the gameplay. You often don't even need a tank in veteran dungeons for ex, and if you go tank and 3 dds the healers would like to have a serious word with you.

So because we decide to practice our rotations, we should be brought down to those that don't want to put in work?

Naftal

nordmarian wrote: »

@Darkenarlol
If I wanted a new game with casual play style I would go for a new game with casual style. I'm here for ESO and to enjoy my time in it.

But you suggested removing a mechanic to make the game more casual...

Sebar80

Munkfist wrote: »

nordmarian wrote: »

@LiquidPony

Let me put it this way, if rotation takes a longer time to be applied, then a larger player base might catch up with yours. Overall this will lower the wide gap between end game and entry level. Animation cancelling is one reason for which DPS can be increased by a serious margin when done right. Skill cast times or duration can also help players with a slower rotation to catch up. Don't hate them.

Please keep in mind that I do play as a tank and not as a dd. But I do feel that having a group dps too high is affecting the gameplay. You often don't even need a tank in veteran dungeons for ex, and if you go tank and 3 dds the healers would like to have a serious word with you.

So because we decide to practice our rotations. we should be brought down to those that don't want to put in work?

Exactly right! This is participation trophy generation at its prime. They deserve everything even if they are not good enugh.
If you worked hard to get where you are it is your own fault that you did, you should just wait for the handouts.

karekiz

Casterial wrote: »

Fyi, leveling up the pop up tutorial teaches you animation cancelling.

Lets be honest. That little note nobody will ever read teaches nothing. If your a new player and you ding one of *two* things happen:
1. Your in the middle of an encounter, finished a quest turn in, or finished a random normal. None of those will make the player stop to read a text blurb.
2. Your showered in HIT F GET REWARD OPEN INVENTORY - GET NEW THING - MANAGE YOUR INVENTORY NOW - LOOK AT WHAT YOU GOT - OHHH SKILL POINT BTW - OHHH ATTRIBUTES POINT BTW.

Is essentially overwhelming and *anyone* who thinks a small piece of text is "gud" enough obviously doesn't play. Most people learn correct LA weaving/ani cancel from videos/websites/outside means. Thats why there is a whole billion videos on how to do it


You might as well say a loading screen text prompt can replace an active game tutorial.

Royaji

Haven't those guys who always ignored mechanics and just burned everything 100-0 (Dragon's Crest? I might be remembering the name wrong) disbanded a long time ago? Somewhere after Morrowind where they weren't able to "stack and burn" HoF?

Or is someone new trying the same trick?

mairwen85

Here we go again.

The Uninvited

Complains about bursting down bosses in trials and people not doing mechanics.

Then goes on about: "- Taking out the animation cancelling entirely. A vast majority of players have no idea or cannot play at such rate that they can use it in their favor."

smh.

SidraWillowsky

nordmarian wrote: »

@Darkenarlol
I dont want to sound rude but even through I was asked to join some vcr3 progression teams I did turned them off. Jelly? NO.
I just want to lower the ceiling between end game and entry level. Getting myself better? I think I am on a really decent level where I am already. Can't say the same about 80% of the majority eso players.
If I wanted a new game with casual play style I would go for a new game with casual style. I'm here for ESO and to enjoy my time in it.

Weren't you the one with the sob stories about getting kicked out of multiple raid groups?

starkerealm

karekiz wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Fyi, leveling up the pop up tutorial teaches you animation cancelling.

Lets be honest. That little note nobody will ever read teaches nothing. If your a new player and you ding one of *two* things happen:
1. Your in the middle of an encounter, finished a quest turn in, or finished a random normal. None of those will make the player stop to read a text blurb.
2. Your showered in HIT F GET REWARD OPEN INVENTORY - GET NEW THING - MANAGE YOUR INVENTORY NOW - LOOK AT WHAT YOU GOT - OHHH SKILL POINT BTW - OHHH ATTRIBUTES POINT BTW.

Is essentially overwhelming and *anyone* who thinks a small piece of text is "gud" enough obviously doesn't play. Most people learn correct LA weaving/ani cancel from videos/websites/outside means. Thats why there is a whole billion videos on how to do it


You might as well say a loading screen text prompt can replace an active game tutorial.

The team knows it's not enough. It's just that explaining animation canceling to the player, without "breaking character," is very difficult. So it ends up in places like that, instead of part of the tutorials.

starkerealm

Woeler wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

nordmarian wrote: »

It is however a problem because you entirely skip splitting swapping and even merging them alltogether. It does seriously affect tanking skills.

Tanks have to be super good for the triplets burn because 1) without good tank debuffs, you might not make the burn 2) their attacks become far more lethal when enraged 3) everyone is stacked, so you have to be especially careful with positioning so as not to fry your dps or heals (or the other tank).

Imo the tanks (and really the group as a whole) must be far more skilled to pull that off than to simply range taunt the opposite boss every so often.

So, it's not surprising that one of the tanks Nord is citing is probably @Woeler.

I have no idea.

I'm guessing. But if anyone can make a triplet burn look easier than running the encounter "normally," you're the first person that comes to mind.

LiquidPony

nordmarian wrote: »

fourth is the triplets. But yeah the video I saw was hodor's i guess.

Right so you aren't doing these mechanic skips.

You want to nerf stuff because you saw someone else doing something in a video? When you have no idea what it took to actually achieve that tactic in the first place?

Come now. This is ridiculous.

VaranisArano

starkerealm wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Fyi, leveling up the pop up tutorial teaches you animation cancelling.

Lets be honest. That little note nobody will ever read teaches nothing. If your a new player and you ding one of *two* things happen:
1. Your in the middle of an encounter, finished a quest turn in, or finished a random normal. None of those will make the player stop to read a text blurb.
2. Your showered in HIT F GET REWARD OPEN INVENTORY - GET NEW THING - MANAGE YOUR INVENTORY NOW - LOOK AT WHAT YOU GOT - OHHH SKILL POINT BTW - OHHH ATTRIBUTES POINT BTW.

Is essentially overwhelming and *anyone* who thinks a small piece of text is "gud" enough obviously doesn't play. Most people learn correct LA weaving/ani cancel from videos/websites/outside means. Thats why there is a whole billion videos on how to do it


You might as well say a loading screen text prompt can replace an active game tutorial.

The team knows it's not enough. It's just that explaining animation canceling to the player, without "breaking character," is very difficult. So it ends up in places like that, instead of part of the tutorials.

I understand that concern for immersion, but seriously, they've got to find a better way.

The main reason the damage floor is as low as it is? Simply that without using outside sources or being taught by others, players aren't going to pick up on the basics of PVE endgame DPS like rotations and light attack weaving.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised they didnt add an explanation to the Skills Advisor. Seems like they could explain that at level 10 when players start being able to use dungeon finder.

jypcy

starkerealm wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Fyi, leveling up the pop up tutorial teaches you animation cancelling.

Lets be honest. That little note nobody will ever read teaches nothing. If your a new player and you ding one of *two* things happen:
1. Your in the middle of an encounter, finished a quest turn in, or finished a random normal. None of those will make the player stop to read a text blurb.
2. Your showered in HIT F GET REWARD OPEN INVENTORY - GET NEW THING - MANAGE YOUR INVENTORY NOW - LOOK AT WHAT YOU GOT - OHHH SKILL POINT BTW - OHHH ATTRIBUTES POINT BTW.

Is essentially overwhelming and *anyone* who thinks a small piece of text is "gud" enough obviously doesn't play. Most people learn correct LA weaving/ani cancel from videos/websites/outside means. Thats why there is a whole billion videos on how to do it


You might as well say a loading screen text prompt can replace an active game tutorial.

The team knows it's not enough. It's just that explaining animation canceling to the player, without "breaking character," is very difficult. So it ends up in places like that, instead of part of the tutorials.

Also, it’s been a while, but don’t you not have any skills during the teaching mechanics in the tutorial? Or if you do, you can choose them yourself?

If the former, you really can’t weave. If the latter, I can imagine it’s difficult to explain weaving while accounting for players who chose lava whip, those who chose frost cloak, and those who chose crystal blast, as a few examples.

VaranisArano wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Fyi, leveling up the pop up tutorial teaches you animation cancelling.

Lets be honest. That little note nobody will ever read teaches nothing. If your a new player and you ding one of *two* things happen:
1. Your in the middle of an encounter, finished a quest turn in, or finished a random normal. None of those will make the player stop to read a text blurb.
2. Your showered in HIT F GET REWARD OPEN INVENTORY - GET NEW THING - MANAGE YOUR INVENTORY NOW - LOOK AT WHAT YOU GOT - OHHH SKILL POINT BTW - OHHH ATTRIBUTES POINT BTW.

Is essentially overwhelming and *anyone* who thinks a small piece of text is "gud" enough obviously doesn't play. Most people learn correct LA weaving/ani cancel from videos/websites/outside means. Thats why there is a whole billion videos on how to do it


You might as well say a loading screen text prompt can replace an active game tutorial.

The team knows it's not enough. It's just that explaining animation canceling to the player, without "breaking character," is very difficult. So it ends up in places like that, instead of part of the tutorials.

I understand that concern for immersion, but seriously, they've got to find a better way.

Agreed. Honestly I think a big part of the problem is the way the AI works. Most overland mobs take a nice 2-3 seconds between attacks and any “ability” they use tends to come with a 1-2 second windup. When the combat you’re exposed to from the very start is that slow-paced, no wonder the casual player takes their time with skill choices and animations.

WrathOfInnos

I wouldn’t recommend making changes based on a video you saw. I’m not sure what the context was, but I very much doubt that all the enemies in the newer vet trials were dead before the tank taunted or stacked them. I’d also say that each new trial is better than the last about mandatory mechanics. And in the few situations where mechanics are skipped for speed, it is actually a much more difficult strategy. A few examples of this are:
- Keeping Galanwe alive in vCR+3 causing enrage through entire shade phase
- Leaving all of Lokkestiiz’s Atronachs alive until he flies, resulting in more combined mechanics and damage along with the beam
- Skipping Nahviintaas’ statues, which requires a 3rd tank that has to deal with 4 of them instead of 1, and means one fewer DPS in the group for the rest of the fight

In all of these examples doing the mechanics is the easy solution, but takes slightly longer so players have invented these “hard modes” to get quicker times and higher scores.

Vahrokh

nordmarian wrote: »

I do enjoy playing through mechanics and hard mode mechanics? The often they occur also the better chances for players to learn them?

I assure you, I truly enjoyed veteran and hard mode MoL full mechanics... as a functional character who could finish 2 rotations without going out of magicka. I and my team mates just did 30k DPS because stats were scaled to achieve 30k DPS.

I would TOTALLY love to return doing 30k DPS IF:

• We didn't have the favourite classes / specs still being able to do 50k (that is, nerfed but still insanely better than everyone else "because").
• We did 30k because that's the maximum output we could do with fluid, fun gameplay. That is, NOT being forced to heavy attacks and NOT being capped by resources drain.

Believe it or not, for years ESO fulfilled both the above conditions and the game was incredibly more fun and engaging than today.

Austinseph1

That was sure a long explanation for a "Remove ani cancel and cap dps" post. Most of them get right to the point lol.

Stebarnz

They have catered to scrubs enough stop trying to dumb this game down further with bring stuff down to my level posts.

How about you get better! (may not be you specifically but the royal you, those who you say cannot do a certain thing, they have to learn.)

Alternatively I want to win gold in the 100m at the Olympics can you ask them to make it so I can be competitive please and ask the other guys to only run at my pace, thx in advance.

MajBludd

OP, did you play WoW?

ForzaRammer

why don't you form your own raid then?

Mr_Walker

Commancho wrote: »

nordmarian wrote: »

Skipping mechanics doesn't make you better. What makes you better is doing the mechanics and stacking the adds in such ways you are fast enough, good enough, and survive long enough, and make use of proper buffs and debuffs to obtain a legit clear.

Maybe player base doesn't like these mechanics at all? So how about stop adding them?

Wait, you don't like having to kill atronachs clockwise around a room whilst one party member has to play red diamond on a lute whilst another jumps up and down on a button 3 times on their left leg and once on their right otherwise the whole party gets one shot by the fist of an angry god to be fun and engaging?

Raideen

casparian wrote: »

nordmarian wrote: »

Taking out the animation cancelling entirely.

This isn't WOW or a CRPG. The only real saving grace in ESO's combat is it's fluidity and speed. Getting rid of animation cancelling would destroy that, leaving combat clunky, slow, and less engaging.

If you want to play an MMO without animation cancelling, those exist. Go play them.

Wrong.

Animation cancelling is the biggest bane of this game. Literally. Its not intuitive and its a user interface nightmare. Clicking 1-4 and rotating between LMB is not even fun, in fact its tiresome.

This leads to people using it and people not using (rightfully so as it was not INTENDED in the design of the game).

This creates balance issues. If bosses are balanced for the additional DPS of animation cancelling then "casuals" suffer. If the boss is not balanced around animation cancelling, then the "elite" whine "game is too easy".

The only solution, and the correct solution is to remove animation cancelling.

Elitists like it because it gives them an epeen increase while they smoke a casuals DPS but I don't care about your epeen I care about the health of the game.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Raisin wrote: »

Just to humor the actual topic: This is the opposite of the problem we are facing right now. I understand you may have felt this way at some point, but it's just absolutely not relevant with the current patch. Copy paste this post, wait until this issue pops up again.
Lowering DPS also doesn't help people who already couldn't achieve certain content. If you wanna talk about LA-weaving, I believe we have enough threads about that already... and yeah sure, let's take away an integral combat mechanic that makes ESO combat unique and interesting. Cause that's a better solution than just telling ZOS to actually teach players how to play.

Anyway, subtle as he may be, OP is slowly becoming too obvious with the baiting. Patch lowers damage a lot? Let's make this post to trigger people. Now repeat that times 20 and you have this guy's post history. At this point it's obviously just 'post something a lot of people will disagree with and play the part of the naive OP' over and over again. Sophisticated trolling.

If you have any love for the game and genuinely educated opinions, don't waste them on this please. Put them where it matters. Have a lovely day everyone.

Please, do read my post history lol. You’ll prove yourself wrong. My posts are either questions about game mechanics or sets, because unlike you, I strive to be better and not complain about low DPS being everyone else’s fault. I also make anti nerf posts because nerfs got YOU and the other upset people here, that lower DPS. I’ve said it several times in posts DoTs needed tuning not a nerf and I’ve always been against increasing cost. if you weren’t so ridiculous, throwing around false claims about me baiting you would know this. But hey, it’s easier to make things up than be productive right?

Just because you don’t like the opinion doesn’t mean it’s baiting. Have fun in your echo chamber. Hell I’m not top 1% but I can complete all content. Its seems the top 1% isn’t the issue, it’s clearly the bottom 1% complaining and people whose numbers were severely inflated by over powered DoTs and now their Epeens are hurt because theyre not doing 100k DPS anymore.

The only person baiting here is you.

CleymenZero

nordmarian wrote: »

I recently come upon some trial videos in which people are skipping every single mechanic possible and simply go for shielding and burst. I really don't think this is how trials should be completed in the first place. Skipping mechanics doesn't make you better. What makes you better is doing the mechanics and stacking the adds in such ways you are fast enough, good enough, and survive long enough, and make use of proper buffs and debuffs to obtain a legit clear.
Personally as a tank I do feel useless in a trial in which everyone burst everything around me. In such situations you don't even need to aggro certain adds, stack them or even pay much attention to buffs and debuffs, boss and adds damage and mechanics as everything is melting way too fast.

We were in the serious need of some balance changes, not sure if this patch is the one but I hope we are going into the right direction. In the end all we need is to lower the ceiling between entry level and end game. Having that said, a lot more people will be able to attend content which are out of their level currently. The more the opportunities people have, the less fights over players and spots into dedicated group dungeons and raid groups and also the better the chances more people will be willing to learn and progress instead of going for carry runs as tanks, dps or healers. This will also increase competition.

Few basic changes I would like to see:
- Taking out the animation cancelling entirely. A vast majority of players have no idea or cannot play at such rate that they can use it in their favor. Those few seconds saved in the long run can increase someone DPS with ~30-50% or more, causing a really wide gap between entry level and end game.
- LA/HA and Skills Damage should be increased with unique skills from various classes/sets to prevent teams using same class/sets meta. But it should also be capped and not allowed too many buffs to be active simultaneity. One idea I am thinking off is adding passives for races which affect the group around them.

I would strongly suggest you post a link of the video in particular. I'm tired of people spewing their feelings and emotions ojnthebforums instead of bringing concrete examples.

You have to take everything into context. The stack and burn for craglorn trials has been a thing for a long time now so if you're just reacting to that now, you should talk with end game players and have a long discussion so that they could put everything into context.

Now if you saw HODOR blast through Sunspire and get Godslayer achievement, then you again need more context.

Also a thing to note, most guilds didn't start by hitting big scores. At first, most guilds will struggle and will then find a way to burn through a trial. Just note that it took sometimes more than a few runs to get to that. Sunspire was a bit challenging at first but once everyone knew the trial, it became almost trivial for an organised group. You still can't PUG the trial in vet and you still can't pug vAS HM, vCR HM but you can with Crags.

TLDR need more context otherwise this is just an impression which has little worth when criticising this game

Raisin

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Just to humor the actual topic: This is the opposite of the problem we are facing right now. I understand you may have felt this way at some point, but it's just absolutely not relevant with the current patch. Copy paste this post, wait until this issue pops up again.
Lowering DPS also doesn't help people who already couldn't achieve certain content. If you wanna talk about LA-weaving, I believe we have enough threads about that already... and yeah sure, let's take away an integral combat mechanic that makes ESO combat unique and interesting. Cause that's a better solution than just telling ZOS to actually teach players how to play.

Anyway, subtle as he may be, OP is slowly becoming too obvious with the baiting. Patch lowers damage a lot? Let's make this post to trigger people. Now repeat that times 20 and you have this guy's post history. At this point it's obviously just 'post something a lot of people will disagree with and play the part of the naive OP' over and over again. Sophisticated trolling.

If you have any love for the game and genuinely educated opinions, don't waste them on this please. Put them where it matters. Have a lovely day everyone.

Please, do read my post history lol. You’ll prove yourself wrong. My posts are either questions about game mechanics or sets, because unlike you, I strive to be better and not complain about low DPS being everyone else’s fault. I also make anti nerf posts because nerfs got YOU and the other upset people here, that lower DPS. I’ve said it several times in posts DoTs needed tuning not a nerf and I’ve always been against increasing cost. if you weren’t so ridiculous, throwing around false claims about me baiting you would know this. But hey, it’s easier to make things up than be productive right?

Just because you don’t like the opinion doesn’t mean it’s baiting. Have fun in your echo chamber. Hell I’m not top 1% but I can complete all content. Its seems the top 1% isn’t the issue, it’s clearly the bottom 1% complaining and people whose numbers were severely inflated by over powered DoTs and now their Epeens are hurt because theyre not doing 100k DPS anymore.

The only person baiting here is you.

Did you just accidentally show us your second forum account?

Edit: TBH this guy doesn't sound like OP and OP has been active in this thread, so it seems a bit unlikely? But here we are. Why go into a random thread you've never posted in, pretend to be OP, get offended by things said to OP, and spew such *** at me?

(I don't DD btw and have never hit 70k on an iron atro, so stop crying on me plz)

Jhalin

This is the same guy who blamed the existence of carry groups for his bad social skills and subsequent ostracizing from some end-game guilds.

Definitely one for the ignore list.

Big lol to the topic, no way should animation canceling (aka the action priority system) should be removed.