HUGE DPS burst problems in group content

nordmarian

I recently come upon some trial videos in which people are skipping every single mechanic possible and simply go for shielding and burst. I really don't think this is how trials should be completed in the first place. Skipping mechanics doesn't make you better. What makes you better is doing the mechanics and stacking the adds in such ways you are fast enough, good enough, and survive long enough, and make use of proper buffs and debuffs to obtain a legit clear.
Personally as a tank I do feel useless in a trial in which everyone burst everything around me. In such situations you don't even need to aggro certain adds, stack them or even pay much attention to buffs and debuffs, boss and adds damage and mechanics as everything is melting way too fast.

We were in the serious need of some balance changes, not sure if this patch is the one but I hope we are going into the right direction. In the end all we need is to lower the ceiling between entry level and end game. Having that said, a lot more people will be able to attend content which are out of their level currently. The more the opportunities people have, the less fights over players and spots into dedicated group dungeons and raid groups and also the better the chances more people will be willing to learn and progress instead of going for carry runs as tanks, dps or healers. This will also increase competition.

Few basic changes I would like to see:
- Taking out the animation cancelling entirely. A vast majority of players have no idea or cannot play at such rate that they can use it in their favor. Those few seconds saved in the long run can increase someone DPS with ~30-50% or more, causing a really wide gap between entry level and end game.
- LA/HA and Skills Damage should be increased with unique skills from various classes/sets to prevent teams using same class/sets meta. But it should also be capped and not allowed too many buffs to be active simultaneity. One idea I am thinking off is adding passives for races which affect the group around them.

Taleof2Cities

This is quite the contrarian post to all the complaint threads about sustain and lower DPS since the patch.

Was this on one of the Craglorn trials perhaps?

WuffyCerulei

Oh gods not another DeLeTe AnImAtIoN cAnCeLiNg post. I will also tell you to git gud, practice weaving, and practive your rotation.
As for the class nonsense, Zos has to do something about stamnecros still being the best over the other classes and magcro.

nordmarian

This one here happened to run content from n trials zone till vet hard mode content in some really powerful groups.

Keep in mind that I am speaking about this from a tank perspective and I wont change to a DPS anytime in the distant future.

casparian

nordmarian wrote: »

Taking out the animation cancelling entirely.

This isn't WOW or a CRPG. The only real saving grace in ESO's combat is it's fluidity and speed. Getting rid of animation cancelling would destroy that, leaving combat clunky, slow, and less engaging.

If you want to play an MMO without animation cancelling, those exist. Go play them.

redlink1979

@nordmarian That sounds like a MO for a normal mode trial. On normal you can skip the majority of mechanics.
On vet, on the other hand, mechanics are mandatory - avoiding them leads to instant kill or a group wipe usually.

Animation cancelling isn't going away. It's not a big deal to accomplish, you just need training. Some need less practice than others but we aren't all equal, are we?

Edited: typo

The_Auror

So you went and watched a couple of Hodor videos and with your new found expertise think the entire game should be changed? Lol. There will always be top tier players in any game that make things seem easier than they are. Go join a pug trial group in Craglorn and all your concerns will be gone.

Edit: Several responses before my message went through, but I also don't see an issue with 5 year old normal difficulty content being easy. This lets more people participate and is a good stepping stone to tougher content.

kalunte

Actually the weaving mastering IS what makes the difference between entry-level and end game player. I'm talking about simple light attack / skill rotation. Anim-cut through block/bash/dodge is another step forward into excellence in PvP mostly.

You may not like it tho.

Casterial

Fyi, leveling up the pop up tutorial teaches you animation cancelling.

CompM4s

If you think vet trials are easy and you can skip mechanics, just try it. You will see that its less than 1% of the player base that can steamroll endgame content.

nordmarian

This still doesn't make my point, point is that allowing end game to reach burst level of dps and allowing them to avoid all sorts of mechanics is only favoring this group of individuals getting through some content easier than intended. Hodor or not videos seen or not, actually I was even in some groups at some point. One clear example I could give you is bursting vHOF first boss and skipping the Fabricants mechanic.

Weaving is indeed what make a huge difference, changes to that will only lower the ceiling which is a good factor. As for PvP you will think twice if you want to cast that skill or simply go for another. Ofc you might try to cancel it but in that case it should actually cancel its effect as well.

hasi

The_Auror wrote: »

So you went and watched a couple of Hodor videos and with your new found expertise think the entire game should be changed? Lol. There will always be top tier players in any game that make things seem easier than they are. Go join a pug trial group in Craglorn and all your concerns will be gone.

I agree here. Also, I am wondering which Mechanics are skipped by Top Tier Guilds?

VSS(Hm)- Portals are done, Ice is done, Atros aswell and the Fire Stack.

Vas(Hm)- Spheres and Kiting are done, Jumping AoE avoided.

Vcr(Hm)- Kiting, Portals are done and so are the Minis. Besides one.

Could go on, but usually the Key Mechanics have to be done. Even with 100k Dps on each DD.😉

kalunte

Well if you really run latest content you may have notice that fight events are mostly health based instead of time based like they used to be because of the potential burst you enlighted.

I think cost increase on aoedots also serves that purpose of "tweaking" potential burst.

Vhof mechanism skippers aren't ordinary ppl. You can't be taken seriously if you point relies only on the top 1% of the population

Raisin

Just to humor the actual topic: This is the opposite of the problem we are facing right now. I understand you may have felt this way at some point, but it's just absolutely not relevant with the current patch. Copy paste this post, wait until this issue pops up again.
Lowering DPS also doesn't help people who already couldn't achieve certain content. If you wanna talk about LA-weaving, I believe we have enough threads about that already... and yeah sure, let's take away an integral combat mechanic that makes ESO combat unique and interesting. Cause that's a better solution than just telling ZOS to actually teach players how to play.

Anyway, subtle as he may be, OP is slowly becoming too obvious with the baiting. Patch lowers damage a lot? Let's make this post to trigger people. Now repeat that times 20 and you have this guy's post history. At this point it's obviously just 'post something a lot of people will disagree with and play the part of the naive OP' over and over again. Sophisticated trolling.

If you have any love for the game and genuinely educated opinions, don't waste them on this please. Put them where it matters. Have a lovely day everyone.

LiquidPony

Taking out the animation cancelling entirely.

And here's a foolproof way to identify someone who can safely be ignored.

Commancho

nordmarian wrote: »

Skipping mechanics doesn't make you better. What makes you better is doing the mechanics and stacking the adds in such ways you are fast enough, good enough, and survive long enough, and make use of proper buffs and debuffs to obtain a legit clear.

Maybe player base doesn't like these mechanics at all? So how about stop adding them?

jypcy

It’s not like the mechanics aren’t there with incredibly high dps. They’re just played in ways other than you might be used to. Take the burn strat on the hunter-killers, for example. The spheres still spawn and attack. Your healers and tanks have to be on top of purges and everyone needs to be aware of taking aims still, even if you cut down on the length of the fight by not killing the spheres. In a way, this group is playing even more mechanics by leaving more spheres up than the “standard” strategy of destroying them as they spawn. Someone who can do the former is certainly “fast enough, good enough,” and can “survive long enough, and make use of proper buffs and debuffs,” as you say it should be, so what’s the issue?

nordmarian

@hasi
vAS2, vCR3 due to the nature of those raids you cannot skip many mechanics, but in case of vCR3 you may let one mini boss alive during execute. Huge dps will also reduce the content difficulty by a serious margin. For example executing vAS2 or vCR3 will become easier as you can just keep some mini bosses alive.
vSS I have no idea but it is a new trial and everything is possible. Adds?

vHOF however first second and even 4th boss mechanics can be entirely or partially skipped by burning through.
vMOL trash mechanics, you can also skip the hulk debuff by simply bursting him in group after the first debuff or even since start.
vSO first boss, you can totally avoid going into the portal.
Just few raid related examples

One main issue with even the 1% using those tactics is that 10-20% of the others will eventually try to adapt such strategies which often doesn't held good results. I do remember to this date when I said we can't do burst mechanic in vHOF first boss. We tried for like one hour without any success, we then tried without bursting and going through mechanics and we did succeed.

Not talking about end game, lets talk about entry level, skipping mechanics will cause players to totally avoid learning mechanics in the first place, then when they end in veteran, we have a bunch of kitties not saying a word and hidding in the corners when you ask them for lets say go in portals in vCR0 side bosses groups.

@jypcy
Agree with that but it is also just an example, second boss for example you can simply just send 0 dds up or only 2 to clear the trash then send the other 2 and other adaptations through this particular raid or others. No worries been there done that.

nordmarian

@LiquidPony

Let me put it this way, if rotation takes a longer time to be applied, then a larger player base might catch up with yours. Overall this will lower the wide gap between end game and entry level. Animation cancelling is one reason for which DPS can be increased by a serious margin when done right. Skill cast times or duration can also help players with a slower rotation to catch up. Don't hate them.

Please keep in mind that I do play as a tank and not as a dd. But I do feel that having a group dps too high is affecting the gameplay. You often don't even need a tank in veteran dungeons for ex, and if you go tank and 3 dds the healers would like to have a serious word with you.

starkerealm

hasi wrote: »

The_Auror wrote: »

So you went and watched a couple of Hodor videos and with your new found expertise think the entire game should be changed? Lol. There will always be top tier players in any game that make things seem easier than they are. Go join a pug trial group in Craglorn and all your concerns will be gone.

I agree here. Also, I am wondering which Mechanics are skipped by Top Tier Guilds?

VSS(Hm)- Portals are done, Ice is done, Atros aswell and the Fire Stack.

Vas(Hm)- Spheres and Kiting are done, Jumping AoE avoided.

Vcr(Hm)- Kiting, Portals are done and so are the Minis. Besides one.

Could go on, but usually the Key Mechanics have to be done. Even with 100k Dps on each DD.😉

vMoL first pad burns come to mind, but we're having to go back in time for that. Probably some of the Crag mechanics can be skipped. I'm not entirely sure, because, "why bother?"

nordmarian

I do enjoy playing through mechanics and hard mode mechanics? The often they occur also the better chances for players to learn them?

starkerealm

nordmarian wrote: »

vHOF however first second and even 4th boss mechanics can be entirely or partially skipped by burning through.

Fourth is the Spider, right? You can't skip its mechanics. It is, literally, invulnerable until you complete the mechanic the first time. You can one phase it with enough DPS, but you can't skip the mechanics.

nordmarian

fourth is the triplets. But yeah the video I saw was hodor's i guess.

starkerealm

nordmarian wrote: »

fourth is the triplets. But yeah the video I saw was hodor's i guess.

You can't skip the triplets. You can stack and burn them, but that comes with some serious risks. Their mechanics are tied to health thresholds.

Also:

nordmarian wrote: »

Not talking about end game...

We're talking about vet trials here. That is practically the definition of endgame PvE.

nordmarian

It is however a problem because you entirely skip splitting swapping and even merging them alltogether. It does seriously affect tanking skills.

Wanted to say that in the case of nTrials you also can simply skip dozens of mechanics judging them by their nature which totally gives no lack of room to progression and learning them.

hasi

nordmarian wrote: »

@hasi
vAS2, vCR3 due to the nature of those raids you cannot skip many mechanics, but in case of vCR3 you may let one mini boss alive during execute. Huge dps will also reduce the content difficulty by a serious margin. For example executing vAS2 or vCR3 will become easier as you can just keep some mini bosses alive.
vSS I have no idea but it is a new trial and everything is possible. Adds?

vHOF however first second and even 4th boss mechanics can be entirely or partially skipped by burning through.
vMOL trash mechanics, you can also skip the hulk debuff by simply bursting him in group after the first debuff or even since start.
vSO first boss, you can totally avoid going into the portal.
Just few raid related examples

True thing about the Mini, thought about that aswell; but Galanwe was left alive before the 100k Dps came up too. So I wouldn't blame the DPS Increase duo to StamNecros existing - especially cause I see mainly Magicka DDs in Vcr+3 still, which are "underpowered" on a general Basis.

Adds in VSS can't be skipped. The only thing, that some Groups may do is to tank the Statues on Last Bos away from the Group instead of killing them. Either way is "officially" a Strategy which may be used.

Vhof 1st Boss you may be able to nuke. But the Key is to not connect the Bosses with each other, and that is done both the normal and nuking way.

On Vhof 4th Boss the Key Mechanics are also done - bringing the bosses on a certain % together to stun them, and remove their Rage Phase(and the Tanks switch Aggro too..) -. It's just that some Groups already put them together straight from the start, but that doesn't break Mechanics.

Where is the Vmol thing a Mechanic Skip? It's like saying that People shouldn't focus the Sun Eater Add and leave her until she does her Negate 3 times whatsoever.

VSO Portal Skip has been going on for years, so again the DPS Increase carries no fault.

nordmarian

vmol last boss 3rd platform nuke

starkerealm

nordmarian wrote: »

It is however a problem because you entirely skip splitting swapping and even merging them alltogether. It does seriously affect tanking skills.

That is to say, "it requires serious tanking skills." Managing the bosses that have empowered attacks in vHoF as the tank, and not getting one tapped requires some serious skill. It is doable. Not surprising it's beyond you, those hits are not supposed to be survivable, but it can be done.

nordmarian wrote: »

Wanted to say that in the case of nTrials you also can simply skip dozens of mechanics judging them by their nature which totally gives no lack of room to progression and learning them.

You don't learn anything on normal anyway. Normal Trials are for, "I want to see this content, and experience it, but I don't want to devote six weeks to progressing through it."

You don't learn anything on normal... anything, really. I mean, nMA is useful for practice, because you can internalize the spawn locations, but that's about it. Normal Trials, Normal Dungeons, it's a tourist mode to allow players to experience the content without putting in a brutal floor. It doesn't matter if you can skip on normal, because you're not there to experience the mechanics. Vet content, especially Vet Trials, is endgame PvE.

jypcy

nordmarian wrote: »

It is however a problem because you entirely skip splitting swapping and even merging them alltogether. It does seriously affect tanking skills.

Tanks have to be super good for the triplets burn because 1) without good tank debuffs, you might not make the burn 2) their attacks become far more lethal when enraged 3) everyone is stacked, so you have to be especially careful with positioning so as not to fry your dps or heals (or the other tank).

Imo the tanks (and really the group as a whole) must be far more skilled to pull that off than to simply range taunt the opposite boss every so often.

starkerealm

jypcy wrote: »

nordmarian wrote: »

It is however a problem because you entirely skip splitting swapping and even merging them alltogether. It does seriously affect tanking skills.

Tanks have to be super good for the triplets burn because 1) without good tank debuffs, you might not make the burn 2) their attacks become far more lethal when enraged 3) everyone is stacked, so you have to be especially careful with positioning so as not to fry your dps or heals (or the other tank).

Imo the tanks (and really the group as a whole) must be far more skilled to pull that off than to simply range taunt the opposite boss every so often.

So, it's not surprising that one of the tanks Nord is citing is probably @Woeler.

hasi

nordmarian wrote: »

vmol last boss 3rd platform nuke

Which has also been possible before on PC. And I mean, the Mechanic is to kill Rakkhat. If you don't do that in time, you may have Runners killing the evil Shadows. If you don't manage to kill Rakkhat then, you may send another pair of Runners. And so on - until the Lunar Phase hits and you have to do X and Y.

Is skipping the Lunar Phase duo to too high DPS Combat breaking aswell? Or 5 Pad-ing Rakkhat?