Trying to understand the complaints

deepseamk20b14_ESO

I find it interesting all the complaints about DPS going down and how it’s “killed the game!”

Mob armor have been standardized since forever ago. The game difficulty has NOT increased. The mechanics of each dungeon has NOT changed.

People completed content BEFORE scale breaker. You all got a taste of some super juice and got addicted to your higher DPS numbers giving the illusion that “you simply got better at the game!”, when in fact you did not.

ZoS just happened to make a mistake and WAY over tune DoTs.

If you completed content before scale breaker guess what? You can still complete content now! Crazy, right?

And don’t give me the “well now my build is changed and I farmed for it!” The BiS builds haven’t changed since Elsweyr dropped in the first place. MAYBE a monster helm set but that’s it.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t up the damage a little on DoTs, my DK would surely appreciate it, but acting like this is the end of all things is pretty pathetic.

Vahrokh

It's not a DPS drop per se:

1. DPS is going down but not for everyone in the same way. Gap between "rulers" and "poor man's" classes / specs is widening.
2. 90% of the complains are not about DPS, but about the biggest sustain evisceration since Morrowind. It makes the game even more boring, there's no challenge into adding heavy attacks everywhere. Who did 70k DPS before this, is doing 50k now and he is still skipping mechanics like before. He and everyone else, however, now have to bore themselves to tears with heavy attacks.

xxthir13enxx

NotaDaedraWorshipper

I find it amusing how some people are complaining that everything is too easy in the game and they can practically do everything naked, then when ZoS are adding nerfs, you know making things harder, then doom, gloom and damnation!

Marto

I agree with you. Except for the bit about difficulty and mechanics. The last 6 dungeons have been substantially harder than those before, and I do consider that to be a mistake on ZOS part. But, in my opinion, the solution of that lies in tweaking the dungeons, not the combat system.

It really does seem ridiculous that the ESO community is freaking out about their current builds doing "only" about 30k damage, when they used to deal over 40k with the scalebreaker patch.

Scalebreaker overtuned everyone. Even my low level necromancer could melt people in battlegrounds with little to no effort. It felt cheap and unfair.

The fact that the devs acknowledged their mistake and reverted the damage increases in scalecaller is a good thing.

The only people I have seen say otherwise are more concerned with their pride and numbers, than they are concerned with the health of the game.

Vahrokh

Marto wrote: »

The only people I have seen say otherwise are more concerned with their pride and numbers, than they are concerned with the health of the game.

Yeah, try convince the trial leader that he's concerned with pride and numbers, the next time he kicks you because other classes still do awesome damage and yours has been gutted.

Casterial

In PVP time to kill has drastically increased. People survive that shouldn't survive.

karekiz

Well OP would be right if they only decreased damage values.

However that just isn't the case. The increase in cost is a big annoyance for people.

Cirantille

My main complaint is sustain.

Nerfing damage, ok I can live with it.

Nerfing sustain, ok I can live with it.

Or I can try to adapt.

But nerfing both damage and sustain is cruel.

Or give me two glyphs possibility or an alternative so I can try to survive.

Cirantille

Also streak bug is not fixed at all

Still stuck

Also it is still laggy in cyro

No performance improvement

Casterial

Cirantille wrote: »

Also streak bug is not fixed at all

Still stuck

Also it is still laggy in cyro

No performance improvement

They don't plan on fixing that, that's why streak is "free if you don't travel". I feel like everyone over looked this.

xTAKISx

Vahrokh wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

The only people I have seen say otherwise are more concerned with their pride and numbers, than they are concerned with the health of the game.

Yeah, try convince the trial leader that he's concerned with pride and numbers, the next time he kicks you because other classes still do awesome damage and yours has been gutted.

Im sorry but this does not concern at least 80% of the player base. You can do you but the rest do NOT care.

zaria

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I find it amusing how some people are complaining that everything is too easy in the game and they can practically do everything naked, then when ZoS are adding nerfs, you know making things harder, then doom, gloom and damnation!

Different people complains about different things. Few are complaining that DLC dungeons are too easy as HM is hard and most players doing vet dungeons are not able to do HM on the newer ones.
On the other hand most doing vet dungeons agree overland is too easy.

Main issue is less fun play and your progression is set back, you did vMoL last week but is not able next week even after all in guild updated their build.

Cirantille

Casterial wrote: »

Cirantille wrote: »

Also streak bug is not fixed at all

Still stuck

Also it is still laggy in cyro

No performance improvement

They don't plan on fixing that, that's why streak is "free if you don't travel". I feel like everyone over looked this.

I know right

It is like, well we are not going to be fixing it so we make it free so you all can stop complaining

That was the same logic with DS knock back

Why fix it while you can remove it :d

Casterial

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I find it amusing how some people are complaining that everything is too easy in the game and they can practically do everything naked, then when ZoS are adding nerfs, you know making things harder, then doom, gloom and damnation!

PVE VHM and PVP aren't doable naked.

WrathOfInnos

Dragonhold is not returning to pre-Scalebreaker DPS, I would love if most skills returned to the way they were in Elsweyr. Many skills (damage and utility) were nerfed with Scalebreaker to balance the ST DoT buffs, but instead of reverting them when ST DoTs were rebalanced all these skills were nerfed again in Dragonhold.

Starlock

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

...but acting like this is the end of all things is pretty pathetic.

Consider for a moment why this happens for some people, though.

This game, like most MMOs, is designed to be habit forming if not addicting. It becomes a significant investment in some people's lives in terms of time. In this game, it also often becomes a significant investment in terms of money because this game is replete with predatory microtransactions. Psychologically speaking, when we become addicted to the game (and especially when we pay lots of money into it) we continue playing to justify our investment to ourselves. We want the time and money we spent to be worth it, because that's a heck of a lot more comfortable than admitting that we just wasted a huge chunk of our lives and income to a blasted video game. Major changes to the game cause this exact same sort of mental distress. When you've invested thousands of hours - and possibly thousands of dollars - into a game and it changes, it really CAN feel like the end of all things for some players. If nothing else, it does cause some very real mental distress.

I realize this narrative may sound silly to some of you, but I present it to shed some light on how psychology can teach us some things about video game play habits. These psychological tendencies are present in all of us and individuals might be more or less prone to things like becoming addicted to a game or feeling pressure to make our investments in a game "worth it." Maybe the above applies to you personally and maybe it doesn't. But do take a moment to think about it. It's probably fair to say that just about all of us want to feel like our investment in the game has been worth it. And when it feels like it isn't, we experience distress. It's not pathetic, that's just human.

kalunte

100% agree with you @deepseamk20b14_ESO

Ppl just love to complain. We are far from a heavy attack necessity or whatever.

Dmg may have been double nerfed with both raw values + sustain but some aoedots also last longer so you cast them less often ending in an overall cost per second not so higher than before and so on..

Ps: kutas are cheep.

Vahrokh

xTAKISx wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

The only people I have seen say otherwise are more concerned with their pride and numbers, than they are concerned with the health of the game.

Yeah, try convince the trial leader that he's concerned with pride and numbers, the next time he kicks you because other classes still do awesome damage and yours has been gutted.

Im sorry but this does not concern at least 80% of the player base. You can do you but the rest do NOT care.

This time they do.

Casterial

Vahrokh wrote: »

xTAKISx wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

The only people I have seen say otherwise are more concerned with their pride and numbers, than they are concerned with the health of the game.

Yeah, try convince the trial leader that he's concerned with pride and numbers, the next time he kicks you because other classes still do awesome damage and yours has been gutted.

Im sorry but this does not concern at least 80% of the player base. You can do you but the rest do NOT care.

This time they do.

The issue is 80% of the playerbase sucks at the game.
10% are good at PVE, 10% are great.
Same for PVP. ^ (usually they cross over for both at this point)

Rave the Histborn

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's not a DPS drop per se:

1. DPS is going down but not for everyone in the same way. Gap between "rulers" and "poor man's" classes / specs is widening.
2. 90% of the complains are not about DPS, but about the biggest sustain evisceration since Morrowind. It makes the game even more boring, there's no challenge into adding heavy attacks everywhere. Who did 70k DPS before this, is doing 50k now and he is still skipping mechanics like before. He and everyone else, however, now have to bore themselves to tears with heavy attacks.

No. The complaints have for the last 7 weeks been about dps. Now that the patch is out everyone is in hysterics because sustain has been so high they have no idea how to work in a HA.

code65536

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

The game difficulty has NOT increased. The mechanics of each dungeon has NOT changed.

The game difficulty for old content has not increased. The mechanics of old dungeons have not changed.

But with power creep comes content creep. Each new dungeon, each new trial, is more challenging than the previous and requires more out of players than the previous.

In other MMOs, this combination of power and content creep is made explicit, in the form of new level caps. In this game, it's implicit, hidden behind the fig leaf that every enemy is just "CP 160", but a "CP 160" trial from 2016 is not the same as a "CP 160" trial from 2019. The three bosses in vMoL have a combined total health of 182M (that's with Hard Mode) and the speed-run is 40 minutes. In Sunspire, we're looking at 398M combined total health (with HM) and the speed-run is 30 minutes. 10 fewer minutes. And well over twice as much health to slog through. That's why DPS levels that were fine in 2016 when vMoL came out are not fine in 2019 for vSS.

The same goes for dungeons. Molag Kena in vWGT HM has, IIRC, around 3M health. The two latest DLC dungeons feature final bosses that have 15M and 17M health on HM. Content in this game creeps as much as power creeps. You can't cut one without consideration of the other.

xTAKISx

We ask for harder content and they deliver without crippling the StoryMode player. They force us to use other abilities so the game doesn't feel stale or stagnant. We then all cry when game is tooo hard? Can't sustain? Boring cause I have to throw in an extra heavy attack into my rotation. Oy Vey!!!

Rave the Histborn

code65536 wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

The game difficulty has NOT increased. The mechanics of each dungeon has NOT changed.

The game difficulty for old content has not increased. The mechanics of old dungeons have not changed.

But with power creep comes content creep. Each new dungeon, each new trial, is more challenging than the previous and requires more out of players than the previous.

In other MMOs, this combination of power and content creep is made explicit, in the form of new level caps. In this game, it's implicit, hidden behind the fig leaf that every enemy is just "CP 160", but a "CP 160" trial from 2016 is not the same as a "CP 160" trial from 2019. The three bosses in vMoL have a combined total health of 182M (that's with Hard Mode) and the speed-run is 40 minutes. In Sunspire, we're looking at 398M combined total health (with HM) and the speed-run is 30 minutes. 10 fewer minutes. And well over twice as much health to slog through. That's why DPS levels that were fine in 2016 when vMoL came out are not fine in 2019 for vSS.

The same goes for dungeons. Molag Kena in vWGT HM has, IIRC, around 3M health. The two latest DLC dungeons feature final bosses that have 15M and 17M health on HM. Content in this game creeps as much as power creeps. You can't cut one without consideration of the other.

There's also far less mechanics in the later stuff then the earlier content and when trials like vmol came out the ceiling for dps was 40-45k max while your ceiling now is 80-100+k dps.

redlink1979

Complains are always made when the playstyle has to change/adapt. Not all embrace changes lightly for the reasons mentioned previously.

What I don't understand is some player's positions/opinions because we all agree that power creep was too high before these 2 last patches.

Harder content was asked several times here and on social media networks, ZOS approached it differently: instead of making content harder, they just decided to make us weaker.

Sustain might be an issue for some atm, in that case just need to use the available options to mitigate that decrease: sets/food/potions/glyphs/heavy attack(s) in parse if required

Regarding the costs of upgrading new gear we might need to farm: I never seen gold mats as cheaper as they are now.

Edited:typo

WuffyCerulei

It’s still nothing to how much was nerfed in Morrowind. Holy cow I still have flashbacks from then, and it was over 2 years ago.

Casterial

A lot of people on forums are PVE. In PVP the time to kill players has drastically increased favoring bad, zergling players more.

While I do agree the scaling of DOTs in U23 was bad now you have tank builds and over-performing HOTs which just keep anyone afloat topped with shields which just add into the more tanky meta happening.

Myself and several friends have been redoing our build since PTS day one, we still can't find a solid build to kill as fast because a lot of people just don't die anymore.

SeaGtGruff

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's not a DPS drop per se:

1. DPS is going down but not for everyone in the same way. Gap between "rulers" and "poor man's" classes / specs is widening.
2. 90% of the complains are not about DPS, but about the biggest sustain evisceration since Morrowind. It makes the game even more boring, there's no challenge into adding heavy attacks everywhere. Who did 70k DPS before this, is doing 50k now and he is still skipping mechanics like before. He and everyone else, however, now have to bore themselves to tears with heavy attacks.

No. The complaints have for the last 7 weeks been about dps. Now that the patch is out everyone is in hysterics because sustain has been so high they have no idea how to work in a HA.

I guess I'm lucky in the sense that I've always alternated between HAs and skills. In fact, I just keep my finger held down on the left mouse button and press my favorite skill button (1 for some characters, 3 for others). I did decide to try weaving LAs with skills, to see why everyone is so keen on that, but it just felt weird to me, and I couldn't quite get a decent rhythm. Plus, it didn't seem to give me any better results than weaving HAs with skills, although that might have been a combination of my choice of weapon (greatsword or battle axe) and choice of skills. It's a little different on my newest character, a StamBlade [edit: who uses DW], although I mostly just rotate between skills on him.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

At least people have made some good points.

I think magicka based players made be hit harder this patch.

Cost increase I’m sure is making it hard for many of you. Perhaps if they reverted cost to how it was it would make people more happy and accept the DoT nerf at least a little better.

kalunte

We'll most of the cost increases were done on aoedots. Ppl only need to focus a bit on targets and choose between single or aoe dmg while they never had to think this way before and just drop everything they could whatever situation they were facing..

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Casterial wrote: »

A lot of people on forums are PVE. In PVP the time to kill players has drastically increased favoring bad, zergling players more.

While I do agree the scaling of DOTs in U23 was bad now you have tank builds and over-performing HOTs which just keep anyone afloat topped with shields which just add into the more tanky meta happening.

Myself and several friends have been redoing our build since PTS day one, we still can't find a solid build to kill as fast because a lot of people just don't die anymore.

Same here. It’s about adjusting. Straight up damage build now Is what I run and doing fine. I do think certain classes simply have the innate ability to out heal a lot of damage, id just be wary to change healing in general because other classes would suddenly become too squishy. I think adjusting battle spirit itself should be something ZoS looks at, and honestly battle spirit should be different for CP and no CP. that sounds contradictory to my previous statement, but honestly fine tuning battle spirit might have to be the first step. Perhaps even separating HoTs and Burst healing values/reduction.

People talk about separating PvP and PvE, and I don’t disagree totally, I think a revised battle spirit is the way to do it so they don’t have to muck with skills and sets as much.