I've investigated why even the "casual players who kill dragons" are considering quitting now.

Kelces · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's only worked to dig Average Joes a grave.

The average player is (basically) unaffected.

The "average joes," just got a huge DoT and AoE buff six months ago that pushed them well above what they'd been at. Then that buff got walked back a bit, and they're crying about how they'll never be able to play, even though they're in a better place than they were at before Elsweyr dropped.

Exactly, dots aren't supposed to be a point click and die mechanic in this game. They're meant to supplement your direct damage and weaving. All that happened was part of the population that wasn't fully ready for trials (geared but unable to properly rotate and weave) got into content they weren't supposed to be in yet.

It's not their fault if ZOS royally screwed up 6 months+ worth of expansions and patches DPS.

Imagine if in real life they decided all long time retired 75 old, suddenly are young enough to go find a job and stop paying a pension to everybody because of that.

Or if people bought a car and got driving license and then the government decides to only let 25+ old to be allowed to drive.

In all cases, you'd see a riot.

So, this would be a bad time to point out, you need to be 25 to rent a car in some states?

You missed the point where you could rent a car at 18 old until yesterday, paid for it, are travelling on it, and suddenly they raise the age to 25 and you now are left in the cold.

It's almost like that time the drinking age in the US got lowered to 18 from 21 then a couple years later got raised back to 21. But hey, you missed the point about personal responsibility and complying with new rules/laws.

Or maybe, I live in another continent where your changed laws are known to no one?

Or maybe, it is just a game and you can relax?

Vahrokh · October 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

As a casual magicka-user myself, so far I'm enjoying the changes. Did my damage take a significant hit? Aye. It did. But battlegrounds and none-CP PvP has improved markedly because of it. I can still solo everything I was soloing. So frankly I don't see what the big deal is.

So as usual, this new combat team continues to impress me. This game is finally moving in the right direction after years of neglect and inept gameplay. This new team understands there is more important things to an MMORPG than MOAR DEEPS!!! which the last combat team pandered too relentlessly and to the detriment of the game as a whole.

@Vahrokh

What?????? Are you a casual player that's enjoying this game?????? Don't you know that according to the forums that you should be in a blind rage over this right now? You can still solo world bosses? Dude, you're supposed to have no sustain and all the dots you're supposed to rely on got nerfed hard. There should be no way at all that that you should be able to solo any content at all. Didnt you hear? We're all quitting this patch cuz we're inept and can't adapt.

If you want I can post more.

Just because someone is easily satisfied with a crap patch that lowers DPS by killing sustain (the most unfun thing of all), does not mean others do.

Just because you show me pre patch PTS screenshots doesn't mean that you're right XD

Screenshots
1) No date but obv pre PTS raging. I'm still waiting for everyone to quit ESO and then move to Canada because of Trump.

2) Oct 22. Enough said. See answer 1.

3) Again Oct 22. Don't care. See answer 1.

4) Cost increases....less damage?? Wait you mean the combat lead you were talking about "lead game dev (now gone) joined ZOS, he started this hysteria" is gone now so it's like the new combat team is trying to pull everything into line. It's like all these people weren't supposed to have super cheap Dot spells you just click and forget. It's almost like that creatures uninteresting game play coupled with ESO's (truthfully) kinda meh PVE and game and maybe just maybe you've found the actual cause of your issues. This game has been holding your hand and babying you into content you shouldn't be in for the sake of getting your $$$ and now they are trying to walk it back because endgame PVE is seen as a joke.

5) The fights were to fast and too easy for EVERYONE. I can't name another game where skipping entire combat phases was just par for the course and not some sort of speed run or glitched out single player experience. But hey you have one screen shot from a player claiming ESO is really hard to let me link you.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/476326/seriously-this-game-is-too-easy-and-the-overworld-needs-to-be-buffed-heavily

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/419145/my-level-8-friend-says-eso-is-too-easy

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154143/girlfriends-reaction-to-eso-game-too-easy

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/117195/content-too-easy-simple-fixes-for-free

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/329571/the-game-is-way-too-easy-in-single-player-questing-content-and-overworld-in-general

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/137652/undaunted-pledge-dungeon-scaling-is-too-easy-video-inside-as-proof

Well that should be some casual reading from the average player about the state of the game and its difficulty.

6) Haven't parsed since Wrathstone but lost 20-30% of my dps. X to doubt.

EDIT: I just took a look at that first screenshot you used. The person in it is saying they had high DPS and sustain WITHOUT the use of potions and while using a stealth set. THIS IS WHY THIS PATCH HAPPENED. THAT IS NOT HOW A HEALTHY GAME WORKS.

So, your heroes and life saviors, the new dev team, is saving the game by implementing the most boring "Morrowind 2 - Return of no regen" expansion?

Don't think so.

I have a video on my Youtube channel of me (years ago) doing like 10k DPS and soloing some very hard bosses (took many attempts) and...

... ESO was FUN!

Yes,

I loved doing 10k with my real crystal frags that stunned NPCs and let me play tactically with the mobs and aboit being zerged.
I loved doing 10k with my real shields that were just fine and awesome for 2 years prior.
I loved being able to deal 10k uninterrupted by stupidiotic, boring and unfun heavy attacks and permanent lack of magicka.
I loved being able to play the original, real, true ESO gameplay, based on moving, dodging, avoiding damage while dealing yours. THE ONE real novel ESO idea, fast paced combat. Now it is LOSING it.
I loved being a 2015 magsorc, my gameplay was fluid and smooth like velvet. I hate being a sleepy sloth, having to be a sitting duck spamming heavy attack.

Vahrokh · October 2019

Kelces wrote: »

Weird, I had a few runs and no issues at all with damage where someone even used previously mentioned "lightning splash" (or one of the morphs anyway) and we had good damage with it too, imagine that!

So where is the problem again? The guild you are doing trials with probably don't have any capacity to even enjoy a game anymore and that's a pity. Since they seem to spend most of their time with their calculators and guides to predigest whatever situation, instead of just going out and doing it, they go on judging abilities in advance...because numbers right? I always keep thinking about how it is like amongst those limited parameters, after all would be done and the last boss is dead, everyone would probably call it a worthy "challenge".

edit: spelling

One of my 2 PvE guilds is social and relaxed. But not so relaxed to let members bring in crap specs that slow progress down for the whole team.
1 Liquid Flood player for Alkosh is still OK, often times I have to do it. But that's it. Nowadays, using LF or LL for anything else or in multiple people is just bad gameplay, even if you don't live by the numbers.

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's only worked to dig Average Joes a grave.

The average player is (basically) unaffected.

The "average joes," just got a huge DoT and AoE buff six months ago that pushed them well above what they'd been at. Then that buff got walked back a bit, and they're crying about how they'll never be able to play, even though they're in a better place than they were at before Elsweyr dropped.

Exactly, dots aren't supposed to be a point click and die mechanic in this game. They're meant to supplement your direct damage and weaving. All that happened was part of the population that wasn't fully ready for trials (geared but unable to properly rotate and weave) got into content they weren't supposed to be in yet.

It's not their fault if ZOS royally screwed up 6 months+ worth of expansions and patches DPS.

Imagine if in real life they decided all long time retired 75 old, suddenly are young enough to go find a job and stop paying a pension to everybody because of that.

Or if people bought a car and got driving license and then the government decides to only let 25+ old to be allowed to drive.

In all cases, you'd see a riot.

So, this would be a bad time to point out, you need to be 25 to rent a car in some states?

You missed the point where you could rent a car at 18 old until yesterday, paid for it, are travelling on it, and suddenly they raise the age to 25 and you now are left in the cold.

It's almost like that time the drinking age in the US got lowered to 18 from 21 then a couple years later got raised back to 21. But hey, you missed the point about personal responsibility and complying with new rules/laws.

Or maybe, I live in another continent where your changed laws are known to no one?

I think you missed the point.

Your example was about being able to rent a care at 18 and the next day they change the new age to 25 and you're left to deal with it. You're trying to say something like this would never happen in real life therefore it shouldn't happen in ESO because there would be consequences.

I gave an example of this very thing happening already. No, I don't expect you to know some arbitrary drinking law from the 1970s even if you were a US citizen but that's not the point. The point is stuff like that can and does happen and you adapt to it like everyone else does. Stuff like this happens all the time.

Kelces · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

Weird, I had a few runs and no issues at all with damage where someone even used previously mentioned "lightning splash" (or one of the morphs anyway) and we had good damage with it too, imagine that!

So where is the problem again? The guild you are doing trials with probably don't have any capacity to even enjoy a game anymore and that's a pity. Since they seem to spend most of their time with their calculators and guides to predigest whatever situation, instead of just going out and doing it, they go on judging abilities in advance...because numbers right? I always keep thinking about how it is like amongst those limited parameters, after all would be done and the last boss is dead, everyone would probably call it a worthy "challenge".

edit: spelling

One of my 2 PvE guilds is social and relaxed. But not so relaxed to let members bring in crap specs that slow progress down for the whole team.
1 Liquid Flood player for Alkosh is still OK, often times I have to do it. But that's it. Nowadays, using LF or LL for anything else or in multiple people is just bad gameplay, even if you don't live by the numbers.

Yet again, this condescending stance won't advance your goal for a better experience at all. I totally understand strategy to improve and have quite some experience from other games aswell, but you won't get more "good players" by putting a label on "average joes" etc. either, because this discourages people instead of drawing players with great potential joining you. This is just as damaging to progress of a group as every other example you might bring.

Why not instruct the "average joes" to get better to increase the odds of you having a smooth, successful trial?

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Kelces wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

Weird, I had a few runs and no issues at all with damage where someone even used previously mentioned "lightning splash" (or one of the morphs anyway) and we had good damage with it too, imagine that!

So where is the problem again? The guild you are doing trials with probably don't have any capacity to even enjoy a game anymore and that's a pity. Since they seem to spend most of their time with their calculators and guides to predigest whatever situation, instead of just going out and doing it, they go on judging abilities in advance...because numbers right? I always keep thinking about how it is like amongst those limited parameters, after all would be done and the last boss is dead, everyone would probably call it a worthy "challenge".

edit: spelling

One of my 2 PvE guilds is social and relaxed. But not so relaxed to let members bring in crap specs that slow progress down for the whole team.
1 Liquid Flood player for Alkosh is still OK, often times I have to do it. But that's it. Nowadays, using LF or LL for anything else or in multiple people is just bad gameplay, even if you don't live by the numbers.

Yet again, this condescending stance won't advance your goal for a better experience at all. I totally understand strategy to improve and have quite some experience from other games aswell, but you won't get more "good players" by putting a label on "average joes" etc. either, because this discourages people instead of drawing players with great potential joining you. This is just as damaging to progress of a group as every other example you might bring.

Why not instruct the "average joes" to get better to increase the odds of you having a smooth, successful trial?

Because this was never about the "average joes" this was pretending to be the champion for the downtrodden.

Moloch1514 · October 2019

I'm casual. I dabble in Vet dungeons, normal DLC dungeons, and normal trials. I hate that my Pet Sorc now costs 2x times the resources and does much less damage. In January, I could hit 43k self buffed non-trial dummy. Now I get 33k and my skills cost more. Not to mention what Murkmire did to my shield that was aiding me in attempting vMA (lost hope after Nerfmire, now there is no chance).

Super fun game where you get penalized by trying to get better.

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Moloch1514 wrote: »

I'm casual. I dabble in Vet dungeons, normal DLC dungeons, and normal trials. I hate that my Pet Sorc now costs 2x times the resources and does much less damage. In January, I could hit 43k self buffed non-trial dummy. Now I get 33k and my skills cost more. Not to mention what Murkmire did to my shield that was aiding me in attempting vMA (lost hope after Nerfmire, now there is no chance).

Super fun game where you get penalized by trying to get better.

If you're hitting 33k DPS then you've parsed higher then I ever have in PVE and I'm not sure what you mean when you say vMA is unclearable with a pet build. I've cleared it post Elsweyr and post Scalebreaker with those same nerfs and all it's still easily clearable with your lvl of dps. The only problems you'd be experiencing is taking the time to learn the mechanics of it.

Moloch1514 · October 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

I'm casual. I dabble in Vet dungeons, normal DLC dungeons, and normal trials. I hate that my Pet Sorc now costs 2x times the resources and does much less damage. In January, I could hit 43k self buffed non-trial dummy. Now I get 33k and my skills cost more. Not to mention what Murkmire did to my shield that was aiding me in attempting vMA (lost hope after Nerfmire, now there is no chance).

Super fun game where you get penalized by trying to get better.

If you're hitting 33k DPS then you've parsed higher then I ever have in PVE and I'm not sure what you mean when you say vMA is unclearable with a pet build. I've cleared it post Elsweyr and post Scalebreaker with those same nerfs and all it's still easily clearable with your lvl of dps. The only problems you'd be experiencing is taking the time to learn the mechanics of it.

Yes, for me, vMA isn't worth the hassle to learn now. I play to have fun, and raging against vMA isn't worth my time (not saying this should apply to everyone, this is just where I am in gaming now. I had enough challenge growing up playing NES/SNES games lol).

Sebar80 · October 2019

Rungar wrote: »

It doesnt hold me back. I know how to do it i just choose to not participate.

its holding you back now since you need others to do that.

So if you "choose" not to participate (hahaha) maybe you should not share your limmited ( read non existent) experiance with others. I wonder also how you know you could do it?

Myself i am sure i can pilot space ship, never tried but 100% certain i would be great at it and i can have valid and acurate insight in to how.space ships should be piloted and built.

You literally have no first hand experiance on certain aspects of the game but you sure as hell how they should be changed.

Lisutaris · October 2019

I would call myself a "casual" gamer, who enjoys most of the content.
--> some pvp, some solo lvling in delves, questing BUT also Trials on vet (no progress, more fun).

This patch is the worst ... you feel soooooo less powerful than before... progress in average guild trial grps gets kicked back by 20-30% ... because that's the ~amount of dps, that's missing.
Big ... BOOOOO! I don't like the actual combat team!
EDIT: And intersting rotations got nerfed to 1-3 button spamming for PvE ... GJ .... PoWeR fANtAsY

Jaraal · October 2019

Moloch1514 wrote: »

I had enough challenge growing up playing NES/SNES games lol).

This is true, ESO will never be as hard as trying to beat Burger Time!

BlueRaven · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

As a casual magicka-user myself, so far I'm enjoying the changes. Did my damage take a significant hit? Aye. It did. But battlegrounds and none-CP PvP has improved markedly because of it. I can still solo everything I was soloing. So frankly I don't see what the big deal is.

So as usual, this new combat team continues to impress me. This game is finally moving in the right direction after years of neglect and inept gameplay. This new team understands there is more important things to an MMORPG than MOAR DEEPS!!! which the last combat team pandered too relentlessly and to the detriment of the game as a whole.

@Vahrokh

What?????? Are you a casual player that's enjoying this game?????? Don't you know that according to the forums that you should be in a blind rage over this right now? You can still solo world bosses? Dude, you're supposed to have no sustain and all the dots you're supposed to rely on got nerfed hard. There should be no way at all that that you should be able to solo any content at all. Didnt you hear? We're all quitting this patch cuz we're inept and can't adapt.

If you want I can post more.

Just because someone is easily satisfied with a crap patch that lowers DPS by killing sustain (the most unfun thing of all), does not mean others do.

Just because you show me pre patch PTS screenshots doesn't mean that you're right XD

Screenshots
1) No date but obv pre PTS raging. I'm still waiting for everyone to quit ESO and then move to Canada because of Trump.

2) Oct 22. Enough said. See answer 1.

3) Again Oct 22. Don't care. See answer 1.

4) Cost increases....less damage?? Wait you mean the combat lead you were talking about "lead game dev (now gone) joined ZOS, he started this hysteria" is gone now so it's like the new combat team is trying to pull everything into line. It's like all these people weren't supposed to have super cheap Dot spells you just click and forget. It's almost like that creatures uninteresting game play coupled with ESO's (truthfully) kinda meh PVE and game and maybe just maybe you've found the actual cause of your issues. This game has been holding your hand and babying you into content you shouldn't be in for the sake of getting your $$$ and now they are trying to walk it back because endgame PVE is seen as a joke.

5) The fights were to fast and too easy for EVERYONE. I can't name another game where skipping entire combat phases was just par for the course and not some sort of speed run or glitched out single player experience. But hey you have one screen shot from a player claiming ESO is really hard to let me link you.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/476326/seriously-this-game-is-too-easy-and-the-overworld-needs-to-be-buffed-heavily

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/419145/my-level-8-friend-says-eso-is-too-easy

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154143/girlfriends-reaction-to-eso-game-too-easy

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/117195/content-too-easy-simple-fixes-for-free

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/329571/the-game-is-way-too-easy-in-single-player-questing-content-and-overworld-in-general

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/137652/undaunted-pledge-dungeon-scaling-is-too-easy-video-inside-as-proof

Well that should be some casual reading from the average player about the state of the game and its difficulty.

6) Haven't parsed since Wrathstone but lost 20-30% of my dps. X to doubt.

EDIT: I just took a look at that first screenshot you used. The person in it is saying they had high DPS and sustain WITHOUT the use of potions and while using a stealth set. THIS IS WHY THIS PATCH HAPPENED. THAT IS NOT HOW A HEALTHY GAME WORKS.

So, your heroes and life saviors, the new dev team, is saving the game by implementing the most boring "Morrowind 2 - Return of no regen" expansion?

Don't think so.

I have a video on my Youtube channel of me (years ago) doing like 10k DPS and soloing some very hard bosses (took many attempts) and...

... ESO was FUN!

Yes,
I loved doing 10k with my real crystal frags that stunned NPCs and let me play tactically with the mobs and aboit being zerged.

I loved doing 10k with my real shields that were just fine and awesome for 2 years prior.

I loved being able to deal 10k uninterrupted by stupidiotic, boring and unfun heavy attacks and permanent lack of magicka.

I loved being able to play the original, real, true ESO gameplay, based on moving, dodging, avoiding damage while dealing yours. THE ONE real novel ESO idea, fast paced combat. Now it is LOSING it.

I loved being a 2015 magsorc, my gameplay was fluid and smooth like velvet. I hate being a sleepy sloth, having to be a sitting duck spamming heavy attack.

Oh so much this! Remember when most of our attacks had some sort of utility? And they are taking all of that out.

I would love a “Classic” ESO. This new combat team is the worst.

Toc de Malsvi · October 2019

Could y’all please spoiler out the massive quotes, so I don’t have to spend so much time scrolling. Especially when you are only responding to 2-3 parts of a post.

Wayshuba · October 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The burden of proof isn't on me, it's on you to show that all of these patch changes are going to be so absolutely detrimental that they need to be reversed. I keep hearing how everyone's going to leave (like every patch), dps is dead ( like every patch), my one skill that could take care of everything isn't my crutch anymore (like every patch) but the only proof is see is minor anecdotes.This happens every time there's a new patch. Guess what Chicken Little, the sky isn't falling.

Proof was presented earlier in this thread with links to Steam stats. You dismissed by saying your guild hasn't experienced any declines - without any proof that it what is happening.

Proof was presented to show the opposite of what you have claimed, so no, now the burden is on you to produce proof that there is other evidence to show the opposite of what is presented.

As I said before, all that has been done to refute produced evidence is to make opposite claims to back it up.

Vahrokh · October 2019

Kelces wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

Weird, I had a few runs and no issues at all with damage where someone even used previously mentioned "lightning splash" (or one of the morphs anyway) and we had good damage with it too, imagine that!

So where is the problem again? The guild you are doing trials with probably don't have any capacity to even enjoy a game anymore and that's a pity. Since they seem to spend most of their time with their calculators and guides to predigest whatever situation, instead of just going out and doing it, they go on judging abilities in advance...because numbers right? I always keep thinking about how it is like amongst those limited parameters, after all would be done and the last boss is dead, everyone would probably call it a worthy "challenge".

edit: spelling

One of my 2 PvE guilds is social and relaxed. But not so relaxed to let members bring in crap specs that slow progress down for the whole team.
1 Liquid Flood player for Alkosh is still OK, often times I have to do it. But that's it. Nowadays, using LF or LL for anything else or in multiple people is just bad gameplay, even if you don't live by the numbers.

Yet again, this condescending stance won't advance your goal for a better experience at all. I totally understand strategy to improve and have quite some experience from other games aswell, but you won't get more "good players" by putting a label on "average joes" etc. either, because this discourages people instead of drawing players with great potential joining you. This is just as damaging to progress of a group as every other example you might bring.

Why not instruct the "average joes" to get better to increase the odds of you having a smooth, successful trial?

I am not the guild recruiter nor a class officer and I am openly bad at teaching or at being a nice guy.
I just created this whole thread because I had read one too many people being annoyed in game, which in turn annoyed me

Once I finished writing I realized that a today's annoyed guy like @Moloch1514 could be the missing trial member of tomorrow. All because ZOS cannot balance their game in a fun way even if their lives depended on it.

Vahrokh · October 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

I'm casual. I dabble in Vet dungeons, normal DLC dungeons, and normal trials. I hate that my Pet Sorc now costs 2x times the resources and does much less damage. In January, I could hit 43k self buffed non-trial dummy. Now I get 33k and my skills cost more. Not to mention what Murkmire did to my shield that was aiding me in attempting vMA (lost hope after Nerfmire, now there is no chance).

Super fun game where you get penalized by trying to get better.

If you're hitting 33k DPS then you've parsed higher then I ever have in PVE

... and you feel entitled patronising other people with such numbers? That is < 33k?

How you can white knight that game is OK and nice when you wouldn't even be allowed in a barely decent trial guild to PROVE that the game is OK now?

I can totally relate with @Moloch1514 and his struggle. He just went from being let into an above hm Craglorn trials guild down to a casual vet Craglorn guild. That really ruins his efforts and his morale!

starkerealm · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's only worked to dig Average Joes a grave.

The average player is (basically) unaffected.

The "average joes," just got a huge DoT and AoE buff six months ago that pushed them well above what they'd been at. Then that buff got walked back a bit, and they're crying about how they'll never be able to play, even though they're in a better place than they were at before Elsweyr dropped.

Exactly, dots aren't supposed to be a point click and die mechanic in this game. They're meant to supplement your direct damage and weaving. All that happened was part of the population that wasn't fully ready for trials (geared but unable to properly rotate and weave) got into content they weren't supposed to be in yet.

It's not their fault if ZOS royally screwed up 6 months+ worth of expansions and patches DPS.

Imagine if in real life they decided all long time retired 75 old, suddenly are young enough to go find a job and stop paying a pension to everybody because of that.

Or if people bought a car and got driving license and then the government decides to only let 25+ old to be allowed to drive.

In all cases, you'd see a riot.

So, this would be a bad time to point out, you need to be 25 to rent a car in some states?

You missed the point where you could rent a car at 18 old until yesterday, paid for it, are travelling on it, and suddenly they raise the age to 25 and you now are left in the cold.

Then maybe you should have paid attention to the highly publicized change that we knew about well in advance of your trip, and then worked to bring your DPS up some.

You mean the patch notes in the inconspicuous PTS sub forum, that get posted 2 days after the new game changes are in place and that will change again the very day PTS is over and we get a game in our face, in production, 2 days before the last patch notes even exist?

No, I'm talking about the patch notes that were posted to the PTS over a month ago, and stirred up so much drama it spilled over into General Discussion for the duration of the testing cycle.

Those patch notes.

starkerealm · October 2019

Kelces wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

Weird, I had a few runs and no issues at all with damage where someone even used previously mentioned "lightning splash" (or one of the morphs anyway) and we had good damage with it too, imagine that!

So where is the problem again? The guild you are doing trials with probably don't have any capacity to even enjoy a game anymore and that's a pity. Since they seem to spend most of their time with their calculators and guides to predigest whatever situation, instead of just going out and doing it, they go on judging abilities in advance...because numbers right? I always keep thinking about how it is like amongst those limited parameters, after all would be done and the last boss is dead, everyone would probably call it a worthy "challenge".

edit: spelling

One of my 2 PvE guilds is social and relaxed. But not so relaxed to let members bring in crap specs that slow progress down for the whole team.
1 Liquid Flood player for Alkosh is still OK, often times I have to do it. But that's it. Nowadays, using LF or LL for anything else or in multiple people is just bad gameplay, even if you don't live by the numbers.

Yet again, this condescending stance won't advance your goal for a better experience at all. I totally understand strategy to improve and have quite some experience from other games aswell, but you won't get more "good players" by putting a label on "average joes" etc. either, because this discourages people instead of drawing players with great potential joining you. This is just as damaging to progress of a group as every other example you might bring.

Why not instruct the "average joes" to get better to increase the odds of you having a smooth, successful trial?

Because, this is a, "won't someone think of the children," argument, redressed for forum consumption. It's the same reason when they decide they can't win on actual logic, and revert to an analogy, their first thought process leads them to age examples.

Nemesis7884 · October 2019

what concerns me is that more and more high profile community members and content creaters have either already announced they are leaving or are voicing their frustration very clearly threatening to leave if they dont see real improvements within the next couple months with regards to balancing, performance, treatment of the community etc.

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

I'm casual. I dabble in Vet dungeons, normal DLC dungeons, and normal trials. I hate that my Pet Sorc now costs 2x times the resources and does much less damage. In January, I could hit 43k self buffed non-trial dummy. Now I get 33k and my skills cost more. Not to mention what Murkmire did to my shield that was aiding me in attempting vMA (lost hope after Nerfmire, now there is no chance).

Super fun game where you get penalized by trying to get better.

If you're hitting 33k DPS then you've parsed higher then I ever have in PVE

... and you feel entitled patronising other people with such numbers? That is < 33k?

How you can white knight that game is OK and nice when you wouldn't even be allowed in a barely decent trial guild to PROVE that the game is OK now?

I can totally relate with @Moloch1514 and his struggle. He just went from being let into an above hm Craglorn trials guild down to a casual vet Craglorn guild. That really ruins his efforts and his morale!

"... and you feel entitled patronising other people with such numbers? That is < 33k?"

God, Imagine writing a post telling people how much fun you had back when you had 10k DPS and everything was good and that was some of the best times you had in the game and on top of that you keep telling everyone how you're the champion for the "Average Joe." Then in the same thread you call someone "entitled" because they are one the Average Joe's you're pretending to champion for. It's not patronizing if it's true and I'm not the only person in this thread calling you out for this. I'd also like to note that I stopped doing trials for PVP not because I couldn't keep up. Hey nice try though, maybe you can make a youtube video about it. Hey guys. Did you know Vahrokh makes youtube videos? I didn't because I don't need overland PVE boss explanation videos but maybe he can shill it a few more times in this thread. Hopefully the clicks are worth it.

"How you can white knight that game is OK and nice when you wouldn't even be allowed in a barely decent trial guild to PROVE that the game is OK now?"

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the patch is only local to PVE. I had no idea the same patch was going on in PVP where arguably it's much harder. I must have missed that part where there's a DPS test to post on the forums. Wait, there isn't one and everyone's opinion is ok to post? I guess we're all just going to have to trust the guy that claims to be fighting for the "Average Joe" and the condescends to them every chance he gets when they have a different opinion. Can I make a request video? I'd like to see you hold a funeral for your favorite class and then continue to play the game for a few more years. I'm really digging the Deltia's Gaming nostalgia you're trying to put out this patch and I figure if you follow in his footsteps that will definitely help you with outrage clicks.

"I can totally relate with @Moloch1514 and his struggle. He just went from being let into an above hm Craglorn trials guild down to a casual vet Craglorn guild. That really ruins his efforts and his morale!"

LMFAO ruins his efforts and morale. So you're saying he's skilled enough but the damage didn't come from him and instead of him putting in more effort, the same amount of every other player at that skill level, his morale will be so damaged that he won't even try. Well not sure how to make this sound less mean but ESO doesn't need more fair weather players. If you're at the summit of the mountain and you hit a patch of rocks that gives way and you tumble down a bit do you give up because you fell down a little bit or do you go right back to climbing to the top because you're right there? (I know your answer is give up and tell everyone that you can possibly shout to about how unfair it was but) Normal people keep going and make it to the top.

starkerealm · October 2019

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

what concerns me is that more and more high profile community members and content creaters have either already announced they are leaving or are voicing their frustration very clearly threatening to leave if they dont see real improvements within the next couple months with regards to balancing, performance, treatment of the community etc.

If you're talking about the two people I think you are... there is another very important factor.

Twitch is, apparently, rolling out a policy change to the way they treat embedded players. Right now, those embedded viewers count towards your placement in the directory. In the near future, that probably won't be the case. There's at least three major ESO content creators who derive a disproportionate number of views from their embedded players.

This means, if this change rolls through as expected, their followings will be wiped out, almost literally, overnight. They're panicking. Telling their communities to run screaming for the hills, and that they're leaving the game. That way, if their viewership suddenly drops from the thousands to under a hundred in an instant, they can just go, "yeah, they did what I told," not, "those were never real viewers in the first place."

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

what concerns me is that more and more high profile community members and content creaters have either already announced they are leaving or are voicing their frustration very clearly threatening to leave if they dont see real improvements within the next couple months with regards to balancing, performance, treatment of the community etc.

It's called Drama views. Let me take you on a little history lesson.

The year is 2017, Morrowind is in PTS and the two most well known players in ESO are Delta's Gaming and Alcast. Deltia at the time is the more popular of the two. A man with PVE/PVP experience and builds so consulted they HAD to work because of the share amount of crap packed into them. Then the PTS Templar changes drop. He loses his god damn mind. He makes a video declaring templar dead where he irl digs a small hole to "bury his templar," he proceeds to tell everyone that he's leaving ESO, ESO is dead, all classes are dead due to sustain, everyone is going to leave and he's going to play an MMO called "Ashes of Creation." I'd love to link you the video but sadly it no longer exists. So this video drops, the player base sees it and has the same reaction. Game's dead, blah blah blah, etc. The Morrowind drops, don't get me wrong, sustain isn't the best but it's also in no way game ending. People then see this and react accordingly by mocking him out of the f'ing game. He of course returns (because it was just about views and not really about quitting) but never sees the same level of popularity as he did pre Templar Funeral.

AzurasDaddy · October 2019

So...you can't stack max resources and weapon damage anymore and have to figure out how to balance your build? Sounds terrible...

BlueRaven · October 2019

I have said it before;

Less people playing a type of content just means there will be less of that content produced.

All the people happy for the nerfs are just hurting themselves as the pool of available players for it gets shallower.

There is ample proof people are leaving the game, just look at the forums. In the past there was several people posting dps parses in the pts channel. This time I saw only one. Is that normal?

The combat team through nerfs and just making combat bland is apparently driving away players. The actual content is fun, but the combat team is just awful.

Jeremy · October 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

I have said it before;

Less people playing a type of content just means there will be less of that content produced.

All the people happy for the nerfs are just hurting themselves as the pool of available players for it gets shallower.

There is ample proof people are leaving the game, just look at the forums. In the past there was several people posting dps parses in the pts channel. This time I saw only one. Is that normal?

The combat team through nerfs and just making combat bland is apparently driving away players. The actual content is fun, but the combat team is just awful.

Not really. If the content becomes boring because everyone is doing too much damage (which is what was starting to happen) I could care less if there is more content or not at that point. If players want to leave they can. But these changes have been good for the game. And this is coming from someone who lost nearly half their damage in the last patch.

Vahrokh · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's only worked to dig Average Joes a grave.

The average player is (basically) unaffected.

The "average joes," just got a huge DoT and AoE buff six months ago that pushed them well above what they'd been at. Then that buff got walked back a bit, and they're crying about how they'll never be able to play, even though they're in a better place than they were at before Elsweyr dropped.

Exactly, dots aren't supposed to be a point click and die mechanic in this game. They're meant to supplement your direct damage and weaving. All that happened was part of the population that wasn't fully ready for trials (geared but unable to properly rotate and weave) got into content they weren't supposed to be in yet.

It's not their fault if ZOS royally screwed up 6 months+ worth of expansions and patches DPS.

Imagine if in real life they decided all long time retired 75 old, suddenly are young enough to go find a job and stop paying a pension to everybody because of that.

Or if people bought a car and got driving license and then the government decides to only let 25+ old to be allowed to drive.

In all cases, you'd see a riot.

So, this would be a bad time to point out, you need to be 25 to rent a car in some states?

You missed the point where you could rent a car at 18 old until yesterday, paid for it, are travelling on it, and suddenly they raise the age to 25 and you now are left in the cold.

Then maybe you should have paid attention to the highly publicized change that we knew about well in advance of your trip, and then worked to bring your DPS up some.

You mean the patch notes in the inconspicuous PTS sub forum, that get posted 2 days after the new game changes are in place and that will change again the very day PTS is over and we get a game in our face, in production, 2 days before the last patch notes even exist?

No, I'm talking about the patch notes that were posted to the PTS over a month ago, and stirred up so much drama it spilled over into General Discussion for the duration of the testing cycle.

Those patch notes.

Well, I am talking about that nice practice that involves having Dragonhold running since a couple of days, while the patch notes about it are still not out as of today.

Using the example above, imagine if in real life people would be stopped by the police and car confiscated... while the law about it is still in draft and not public yet!

Also, drama = "that thing that happens when somebody I don't care about gets hit by some bad thing I don't really care about, I really don't understand why all the fuss".

Vahrokh · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

Weird, I had a few runs and no issues at all with damage where someone even used previously mentioned "lightning splash" (or one of the morphs anyway) and we had good damage with it too, imagine that!

So where is the problem again? The guild you are doing trials with probably don't have any capacity to even enjoy a game anymore and that's a pity. Since they seem to spend most of their time with their calculators and guides to predigest whatever situation, instead of just going out and doing it, they go on judging abilities in advance...because numbers right? I always keep thinking about how it is like amongst those limited parameters, after all would be done and the last boss is dead, everyone would probably call it a worthy "challenge".

edit: spelling

One of my 2 PvE guilds is social and relaxed. But not so relaxed to let members bring in crap specs that slow progress down for the whole team.
1 Liquid Flood player for Alkosh is still OK, often times I have to do it. But that's it. Nowadays, using LF or LL for anything else or in multiple people is just bad gameplay, even if you don't live by the numbers.

Yet again, this condescending stance won't advance your goal for a better experience at all. I totally understand strategy to improve and have quite some experience from other games aswell, but you won't get more "good players" by putting a label on "average joes" etc. either, because this discourages people instead of drawing players with great potential joining you. This is just as damaging to progress of a group as every other example you might bring.

Why not instruct the "average joes" to get better to increase the odds of you having a smooth, successful trial?

Because, this is a, "won't someone think of the children," argument, redressed for forum consumption. It's the same reason when they decide they can't win on actual logic, and revert to an analogy, their first thought process leads them to age examples.

Too bad this is a game and it's paid exactly like other forms of entertrainment / services.

What do you get with your logic, defending a terrible movie or an awful restaurant? People just get sick and tired of it!

You hammer on the minority who are actually so nice to provide feedback instead of just leaving like most others.

Vahrokh · October 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

I'm casual. I dabble in Vet dungeons, normal DLC dungeons, and normal trials. I hate that my Pet Sorc now costs 2x times the resources and does much less damage. In January, I could hit 43k self buffed non-trial dummy. Now I get 33k and my skills cost more. Not to mention what Murkmire did to my shield that was aiding me in attempting vMA (lost hope after Nerfmire, now there is no chance).

Super fun game where you get penalized by trying to get better.

If you're hitting 33k DPS then you've parsed higher then I ever have in PVE

... and you feel entitled patronising other people with such numbers? That is < 33k?

How you can white knight that game is OK and nice when you wouldn't even be allowed in a barely decent trial guild to PROVE that the game is OK now?

I can totally relate with @Moloch1514 and his struggle. He just went from being let into an above hm Craglorn trials guild down to a casual vet Craglorn guild. That really ruins his efforts and his morale!

"... and you feel entitled patronising other people with such numbers? That is < 33k?"

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the patch is only local to PVE. I had no idea the same patch was going on in PVP where arguably it's much harder. I must have missed that part where there's a DPS test to post on the forums. Wait, there isn't one and everyone's opinion is ok to post? I guess we're all just going to have to trust the guy that claims to be fighting for the "Average Joe" and the condescends to them every chance he gets when they have a different opinion. Can I make a request video? I'd like to see you hold a funeral for your favorite class and then continue to play the game for a few more years. I'm really digging the Deltia's Gaming nostalgia you're trying to put out this patch and I figure if you follow in his footsteps that will definitely help you with outrage clicks.

"I can totally relate with @Moloch1514 and his struggle. He just went from being let into an above hm Craglorn trials guild down to a casual vet Craglorn guild. That really ruins his efforts and his morale!"

LMFAO ruins his efforts and morale. So you're saying he's skilled enough but the damage didn't come from him and instead of him putting in more effort, the same amount of every other player at that skill level, his morale will be so damaged that he won't even try. Well not sure how to make this sound less mean but ESO doesn't need more fair weather players. If you're at the summit of the mountain and you hit a patch of rocks that gives way and you tumble down a bit do you give up because you fell down a little bit or do you go right back to climbing to the top because you're right there? (I know your answer is give up and tell everyone that you can possibly shout to about how unfair it was but) Normal people keep going and make it to the top.

A picture is worth a thousand words:

sisyphus1.jpg?w=650

Normal people are not morons. They achieve something and consider it done.
You are quick to dismiss @Moloch1514 's effort, but I know it's hard for a non top player magsorc lightning build to get to the DPS he did, on a non trial dummy).

If my 3rd PvE guild (hard core, we cleared vCR + 2 with 2 portals runners on guild day 1) did not disband because of ZOS constant hysteria patches, I'd ask him to join us.

A guy doing 43k DPS in Dragonbones solo on a non trial dummy with the worst single target spec?
Using no vMA weapon to boot, in the era of insanely high DPS obtained with vMA weapon + light attacks?

Fair weather player my ass!

Vahrokh · October 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I have said it before;

Less people playing a type of content just means there will be less of that content produced.

All the people happy for the nerfs are just hurting themselves as the pool of available players for it gets shallower.

There is ample proof people are leaving the game, just look at the forums. In the past there was several people posting dps parses in the pts channel. This time I saw only one. Is that normal?

The combat team through nerfs and just making combat bland is apparently driving away players. The actual content is fun, but the combat team is just awful.

Not really. If the content becomes boring because everyone is doing too much damage (which is what was starting to happen) I could care less if there is more content or not at that point. If players want to leave they can. But these changes have been good for the game. And this is coming from someone who lost nearly half their damage in the last patch.

Have you cleared vSS hard mode yet? Where's your time run achievement?
Don't have it? Then let's stay simple: where's your hm vMOL achievement?

Because if you don't have them, how can you be bored at doing too much damage if you didn't do the content that requires it?

Also, last but not least, read the 7 pages of this thread and find where anyone complained about "too much damage".
The game gets boring because you have spend your life with static, stale heavy attacks.

Even if you did 200k in solo with 2 heavy attacks per rotation, the game would be way more boring than when I did 10k DPS never using heavy attacks and being able to cast, hack and dodge all the time.

Edit:
plus, other guys are annoyed because they achieve <results> and now their progress has been rolled back.

I know some in this thread will dismiss it as "fair weather players", but imagine yourself in the shoes of a guy who just got hired in an high level trial guild. He had to leave his old guild / stop running with them and all and; now he's possibly going to get kicked from the new guild because his class has been severely hit by the sustain nerfs.

Do you know what they have told me past Tuesday, when I asked if I could drop Liquid Lightning (required for Alkosh buff, now ultra-nerfed and massively expensive) and use Soul Splitting Trap? "No, because then we don't have a reason to bring a magsorc in the trial any more".

There you go, 5 (five) years worth of effort and then you get told this. They told it while joking, but one day a joke can suddenly become serious.