content too easy? simple fixes for free

hamon

lets say after they re-balance vet mode you find it too easy. this seems to scare our super duper players. "zomg give me a badge cos i done it before care bear mode" etc etc

heres a self help guide about how to make content thats too easy more difficult.

1. roll the hardest class - play templar, that should be harder for anyone who hasnt already tried
2. use melee - put the staffs in the bag and use a stamina build without even changing your attributes. you will hit like a wet noodle which makes killing more tricky. you can also have the advantage of pulling out the staffs to beat anything that proves too hard should it be a problem
3. wear armour vastly lower level- again simple self difficulty slider, you can have your uber armour in the bag for anything you need to take seriously
4. refuse to use food or potions- simple and saves money , win win

hell if you want to go all out do it naked and make a video showing the world your skills. I can respect that much more than anyone who simply boasts about how they like it tough . but then plays nothing but the most OP class using the highest power build and abilities.

Now all these things and more are available to all for free. and the bonus is people who actually want it a bit easier can enjoy the game as well.. this breeds a healthy in game population which is win-win for everyone.

for months now the L2P brigade have been telling everyone smuggly how they need to adapt to vet mode or go play something else.
Well lets see them adapt and make things as hard as they choose. I'm saying its always available to make things harder for yourself. be the guy who solos the storm atronach in his underwear , post the video and i,ll give you a well deserved awesome for that. rather than just play with everything stacked in your favor and brag its not hard enough.

Lord_Hev

+ 1 insightful.

hamon wrote: »

Now all these things and more are available to all for free. and the bonus is people who actually want it a bit easier can enjoy the game as well.. this breeds a healthy in game population which is win-win for everyone.

Indeed. I re-call ZOS advertising "play how you want."


If I wanted some action-slasher game, I'd go play a game more suited for that genre.

nudel

Except that this is not a static game. Balance is always subject to change. So you're essentially demanding that anyone who happens to like a challenge in their game needs to look for the crappy FOTM in order to enjoy the game.

There is nothing epic or exciting about gimping yourself in order to compete with less skilled opponents. Pro athletes don't strap their arms and legs together and compete in high school tournaments.

Furthermore, this style of play teaches you absolutely nothing about your build. You won't learn your class better running around without armor or potions or skills. You won't be able to take that knowledge into trials or PVP.

Tabbycat

If there are truly a majority of players who wish the VR zones were left alone, we should start to see many naked Nords (and other races too) running around in the VR zones soon. I am betting the majority of them will be female.

hamon

nudel wrote: »

Except that this is not a static game. Balance is always subject to change. So you're essentially demanding that anyone who happens to like a challenge in their game needs to look for the crappy FOTM in order to enjoy the game.

There is nothing epic or exciting about gimping yourself in order to compete with less skilled opponents. Pro athletes don't strap their arms and legs together and compete in high school tournaments.

Furthermore, this style of play teaches you absolutely nothing about your build. You won't learn your class better running around without armor or potions or skills. You won't be able to take that knowledge into trials or PVP.

how exactly does the armour you wear change the skills you use in a rotation? if i wear lvl 10 armour do i press diffrent buttons? enlighten me please cos i must not be pro enough to have worked that out

and exactly wot extra skills do you use by eating food and using potions? to me those a crutch and taking them away would make you better not worse.. again am i just too noob to know what pro skills come with eating food?

jelliedsoup

nudel wrote: »

Except that this is not a static game. Balance is always subject to change. So you're essentially demanding that anyone who happens to like a challenge in their game needs to look for the crappy FOTM in order to enjoy the game.

There is nothing epic or exciting about gimping yourself in order to compete with less skilled opponents. Pro athletes don't strap their arms and legs together and compete in high school tournaments.

Furthermore, this style of play teaches you absolutely nothing about your build. You won't learn your class better running around without armor or potions or skills. You won't be able to take that knowledge into trials or PVP.

You need to go pro.

Tabbycat

hamon wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Except that this is not a static game. Balance is always subject to change. So you're essentially demanding that anyone who happens to like a challenge in their game needs to look for the crappy FOTM in order to enjoy the game.

There is nothing epic or exciting about gimping yourself in order to compete with less skilled opponents. Pro athletes don't strap their arms and legs together and compete in high school tournaments.

Furthermore, this style of play teaches you absolutely nothing about your build. You won't learn your class better running around without armor or potions or skills. You won't be able to take that knowledge into trials or PVP.

how exactly does the armour you wear change the skills you use in a rotation? if i wear lvl 10 armour do i press diffrent buttons? enlighten me please cos i must not be pro enough to have worked that out

Without wearing the armor... you lose whatever passives you unlocked with them and whatever bonuses they have.

hamon

Tabbycat wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Except that this is not a static game. Balance is always subject to change. So you're essentially demanding that anyone who happens to like a challenge in their game needs to look for the crappy FOTM in order to enjoy the game.

There is nothing epic or exciting about gimping yourself in order to compete with less skilled opponents. Pro athletes don't strap their arms and legs together and compete in high school tournaments.

Furthermore, this style of play teaches you absolutely nothing about your build. You won't learn your class better running around without armor or potions or skills. You won't be able to take that knowledge into trials or PVP.

how exactly does the armour you wear change the skills you use in a rotation? if i wear lvl 10 armour do i press diffrent buttons? enlighten me please cos i must not be pro enough to have worked that out

Without wearing the armor... you lose whatever passives you unlocked with them and whatever bonuses they have.

yes its a handicap which equals making it harder, which in turn means you would need to be more skilled... however it doesnt mean you have to press diffrent buttons. and again you can wear the same armour but lower level and get all the passives just with lower stats..
the active abilities from armour can be used regardless if you wear the armour or not

you choose for yourself how much of a handicap you want to give yourself.

hamon

Tabbycat wrote: »

If there are truly a majority of players who wish the VR zones were left alone, we should start to see many naked Nords (and other races too) running around in the VR zones soon. I am betting the majority of them will be female.

yes if all the forum rambos can do it all naked i'll take my hat off to them and then they can come and tell us its easy and we'll find it hard to argue.. but we know thats not going to happen, they will just do it with everything maxed and tell us its faceroll

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Lord_Hev wrote: »

+ 1 insightful.

hamon wrote: »

Now all these things and more are available to all for free. and the bonus is people who actually want it a bit easier can enjoy the game as well.. this breeds a healthy in game population which is win-win for everyone.

Indeed. I re-call ZOS advertising "play how you want."


If I wanted some action-slasher game, I'd go play a game more suited for that genre.

You know the 'play how you want' goes both ways right? It applies to everyone, yes?? Not just the people who want to use stupid builds and be bad. It applies to the leet super dudes with calculators and pocket protectors running equations to figure out how to increase their dps by .025%

And that's the problem. Everyone can throw the quote around and use it for themselves but the quote itself is dumb, and Impossible. Some people wont be able to 'play the way you want' and the only people who are happy are the people who are currently playing the way they want.

GreySix

Tabbycat wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Except that this is not a static game. Balance is always subject to change. So you're essentially demanding that anyone who happens to like a challenge in their game needs to look for the crappy FOTM in order to enjoy the game.

There is nothing epic or exciting about gimping yourself in order to compete with less skilled opponents. Pro athletes don't strap their arms and legs together and compete in high school tournaments.

Furthermore, this style of play teaches you absolutely nothing about your build. You won't learn your class better running around without armor or potions or skills. You won't be able to take that knowledge into trials or PVP.

how exactly does the armour you wear change the skills you use in a rotation? if i wear lvl 10 armour do i press diffrent buttons? enlighten me please cos i must not be pro enough to have worked that out

Without wearing the armor... you lose whatever passives you unlocked with them and whatever bonuses they have.

Well then only the most "leet" of "leet" players could pull it off, and then they could strut around the battlefield in the buff to show how great they are - heck, if they're as good as they claim, they could pull it off in PvP.

hamon

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

+ 1 insightful.

hamon wrote: »

Now all these things and more are available to all for free. and the bonus is people who actually want it a bit easier can enjoy the game as well.. this breeds a healthy in game population which is win-win for everyone.

Indeed. I re-call ZOS advertising "play how you want."


If I wanted some action-slasher game, I'd go play a game more suited for that genre.

You know the 'play how you want' goes both ways right? It applies to everyone, yes?? Not just the people who want to use stupid builds and be bad. It applies to the leet super dudes with calculators and pocket protectors running equations to figure out how to increase their dps by .025%

And that's the problem. Everyone can throw the quote around and use it for themselves but the quote itself is dumb, and Impossible. Some people wont be able to 'play the way you want' and the only people who are happy are the people who are currently playing the way they want.

well it becomes a choice then. do you accept that by nature if you are a min maxer you are essentially trying to make it as easy as possible. which is fine if thats your thing... I only have a problem when min maxers demand that everything is hard for them which would by logical extention make it insanely hard for anyone who isn't a min maxer.

so the choice is to either min max but accept you will make it easier, or if you want it too be tough keep the min max stuff for raids etc and just goof around naked or use less op builds the rest of the time

hamon

GreySix wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Except that this is not a static game. Balance is always subject to change. So you're essentially demanding that anyone who happens to like a challenge in their game needs to look for the crappy FOTM in order to enjoy the game.

There is nothing epic or exciting about gimping yourself in order to compete with less skilled opponents. Pro athletes don't strap their arms and legs together and compete in high school tournaments.

Furthermore, this style of play teaches you absolutely nothing about your build. You won't learn your class better running around without armor or potions or skills. You won't be able to take that knowledge into trials or PVP.

how exactly does the armour you wear change the skills you use in a rotation? if i wear lvl 10 armour do i press diffrent buttons? enlighten me please cos i must not be pro enough to have worked that out

Without wearing the armor... you lose whatever passives you unlocked with them and whatever bonuses they have.

Well then only the most "leet" of "leet" players could pull it off, and then they could strut around the battlefield in the buff to show how great they are - heck, if they're as good as they claim, they could pull it off in PvP.

exactly. i respect these guys who do extraordinary stuff to show their skills. like soloing dungeons etc.. that takes skill. but just telling everyone on a forum to L2P while using the best builds and classes and eating food and buffs is actually ez-mode imo.

isengrimb16_ESO

It might be too easy if you're a modern kid who was born with a Nintendo controller in their baby hands, but it's tough enough for us older folks who like RPGs - 1-50 teaches me well enough to block and interrupt and move the hell out of red crap.

Heck, I learned that stuff well enough in WoW LFR. As soon as I realized fights were all about choreography, well, it got really easy once I learned the dance moves. The big difference is you can block in ESO. I'm still kind of learning that, but I took good advice, and used it in the Molag Bal fight - I don't even know what happened to the adds, it only took ten seconds, and my Nightbow has tons of stamina.

Now that I have a naga clone, with buttons on the side of the mouse, I can move around a lot easier, which makes my melee dragonknight a lot more fun and viable.

circilion

Agreed OP. The Vet change was probably needed for a healthier game population. I get pretty engrossed in games and pick a gam and play the hell outta it (because I'm a nerd bad and addict). When I hit Vet I went from played 4 hours every day to a half hour or so ever few days.

I probably represent the most common gamer, average skills, average latency. If I cut back on ESO odds are there were a lot of others that did.

That being said, I'm not a nerfhammer it or I quit kinda guy. It's just the gameplay caused me to slowly lose interest.

Actually the past week I think I've only logged on twice, but have been spending a couple hours reading the forum every might hahaha.

Yea. Nerd/Addict

nerevarine1138

I don't particularly mind that they're scaling the difficulty down, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't slightly disappointed that the community made this happen.

I recently started leveling an alt. It's been a while since I hit early level content, and I can't even tell you how disheartening it was to see Doshia and Gutsripper in their current state. Previously, these encounters taught players about battle mechanics. They weren't hard once you understood how to fight. The same thing has been true of VR content. Once you understand the mechanics, the fights aren't that hard. You simply had less room for error.

It's not elitist to say that games of this type ought to have some challenge to them. I don't really see what's fun about combat without that learning curve.

hamon

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I don't particularly mind that they're scaling the difficulty down, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't slightly disappointed that the community made this happen.

I recently started leveling an alt. It's been a while since I hit early level content, and I can't even tell you how disheartening it was to see Doshia and Gutsripper in their current state. Previously, these encounters taught players about battle mechanics. They weren't hard once you understood how to fight. The same thing has been true of VR content. Once you understand the mechanics, the fights aren't that hard. You simply had less room for error.

It's not elitist to say that games of this type ought to have some challenge to them. I don't really see what's fun about combat without that learning curve.

yes so if you need more challenge give it to yourself .. handicap yourself as much or as little as you feel comfortable with. its all there for you.

from minor handicaps like not using food right up to proper hardcore handicaps like doing it naked.. all free and giving you that extra challenge you say you want.

Lord_Hev

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

+ 1 insightful.

hamon wrote: »

Now all these things and more are available to all for free. and the bonus is people who actually want it a bit easier can enjoy the game as well.. this breeds a healthy in game population which is win-win for everyone.

Indeed. I re-call ZOS advertising "play how you want."


If I wanted some action-slasher game, I'd go play a game more suited for that genre.

You know the 'play how you want' goes both ways right? It applies to everyone, yes?? Not just the people who want to use stupid builds and be bad. It applies to the leet super dudes with calculators and pocket protectors running equations to figure out how to increase their dps by .025%

And that's the problem. Everyone can throw the quote around and use it for themselves but the quote itself is dumb, and Impossible. Some people wont be able to 'play the way you want' and the only people who are happy are the people who are currently playing the way they want.

Nope, it is one way. Pro-leet dudes with calculators can still play that way if VR is easier. VR was easy for them to begin with.


The same cannot be said by the rest of us who want to enjoy the game without everything being a DPS contest.

isengrimb16_ESO

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I don't particularly mind that they're scaling the difficulty down, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't slightly disappointed that the community made this happen.

I recently started leveling an alt. It's been a while since I hit early level content, and I can't even tell you how disheartening it was to see Doshia and Gutsripper in their current state. Previously, these encounters taught players about battle mechanics. They weren't hard once you understood how to fight. The same thing has been true of VR content. Once you understand the mechanics, the fights aren't that hard. You simply had less room for error.

It's not elitist to say that games of this type ought to have some challenge to them. I don't really see what's fun about combat without that learning curve.

Mm, well, Mannimarco's skeletons in the penultimate main story quest are still a PITA. I was fine on my nightbow, but I'm not cheery about my chances on an in-yer-face melee type.

Armianlee

hamon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I don't particularly mind that they're scaling the difficulty down, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't slightly disappointed that the community made this happen.

I recently started leveling an alt. It's been a while since I hit early level content, and I can't even tell you how disheartening it was to see Doshia and Gutsripper in their current state. Previously, these encounters taught players about battle mechanics. They weren't hard once you understood how to fight. The same thing has been true of VR content. Once you understand the mechanics, the fights aren't that hard. You simply had less room for error.

It's not elitist to say that games of this type ought to have some challenge to them. I don't really see what's fun about combat without that learning curve.

yes so if you need more challenge give it to yourself .. handicap yourself as much or as little as you feel comfortable with. its all there for you.

from minor handicaps like not using food right up to proper hardcore handicaps like doing it naked.. all free and giving you that extra challenge you say you want.

Are you kidding me? You're suggesting that people who have worked hard to get great gear just take it off and play the game in the buff? So they have to miss out on some of the best parts of the game so that it can be easy enough for everyone and their dog to get to VR12?

I am not against the lowering of the difficulty, I would like to see more people in the VR zones, but suggesting that someone pretty much just strips out every other aspect of the game so that they can enjoy playing is just as ignorant as them telling you to L2P.

nerevarine1138

hamon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I don't particularly mind that they're scaling the difficulty down, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't slightly disappointed that the community made this happen.

I recently started leveling an alt. It's been a while since I hit early level content, and I can't even tell you how disheartening it was to see Doshia and Gutsripper in their current state. Previously, these encounters taught players about battle mechanics. They weren't hard once you understood how to fight. The same thing has been true of VR content. Once you understand the mechanics, the fights aren't that hard. You simply had less room for error.

It's not elitist to say that games of this type ought to have some challenge to them. I don't really see what's fun about combat without that learning curve.

yes so if you need more challenge give it to yourself .. handicap yourself as much or as little as you feel comfortable with. its all there for you.

from minor handicaps like not using food right up to proper hardcore handicaps like doing it naked.. all free and giving you that extra challenge you say you want.

But that's not actually the challenge I was talking about. Again, see the specific encounters I mentioned.

At Early Access (and through most of April), Doshia could not be brought down before her transformation. This was an absolutely brilliant method of teaching players not just about fight mechanics, but about how to tackle a type of enemy that they will be facing tougher versions of in the future. Now, I run in to fairly high level players that still haven't figured out that they need to bring feasts down as they come up.

VR enemy difficulty (until next week) sees damage and HP scale up, but you really aren't getting hit much more often than at prior levels. You simply have less room for error. You can't just stand in the red cone anymore. You can't ignore that power attack coming straight for your head. These were lessons you were supposed to have learned by VR, but since many players seemed to think the lesson was that if you got some kind of master-build that let you burn down enemies quickly, you never had to worry about fight mechanics, content became "too hard."

Again, I'm not particularly concerned that they're scaling the difficulty down, but I am disappointed in the players who forced this to happen. Because they're going to be the same players complaining that things are too stale after the update goes through.

Ser Lobo

I love the argument against this:

- Why would I should I be *forced* to pick a weaker build or intentionally gimp myself in order to face more difficult opponents?

When in counterpoint, you have:

- Why must I be *forced* to use absolutely optimal classes, builds and armor in order to have a playable game?



It's been brought up more than once, when I would make a complaint about the difficulty my archer/nightblade has experienced. "Oh, my sorcerer doesnt' have those problems". Or better, "If you just went destro staff/light armor, you would have no problem".

Balance is a two-fold issue: part of it is the character, and part of it is the world. They've been changing the characters. Now they are changing the world.

hamon

Armianlee wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I don't particularly mind that they're scaling the difficulty down, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't slightly disappointed that the community made this happen.

I recently started leveling an alt. It's been a while since I hit early level content, and I can't even tell you how disheartening it was to see Doshia and Gutsripper in their current state. Previously, these encounters taught players about battle mechanics. They weren't hard once you understood how to fight. The same thing has been true of VR content. Once you understand the mechanics, the fights aren't that hard. You simply had less room for error.

It's not elitist to say that games of this type ought to have some challenge to them. I don't really see what's fun about combat without that learning curve.

yes so if you need more challenge give it to yourself .. handicap yourself as much or as little as you feel comfortable with. its all there for you.

from minor handicaps like not using food right up to proper hardcore handicaps like doing it naked.. all free and giving you that extra challenge you say you want.

Are you kidding me? You're suggesting that people who have worked hard to get great gear just take it off and play the game in the buff? So they have to miss out on some of the best parts of the game so that it can be easy enough for everyone and their dog to get to VR12?

I am not against the lowering of the difficulty, I would like to see more people in the VR zones, but suggesting that someone pretty much just strips out every other aspect of the game so that they can enjoy playing is just as ignorant as them telling you to L2P.

how? i,m not saying they shouldnt be allowed to do anything at all. they can keep all their well earned uber gear in the bag for when they want/need it. But if they want more challenge simply plop it in the bag and do it with lesser gear.

how does that make anyone miss out on anything? unless of course what your wearing at the time is important to how much you enjoy killing stuff? if so why do folk use costumes hiding their armour and stuff? surely that spoils all their fun if how your dressed is what makes playing the game fun? .. i dont undertand your point of view at all

vyndral13preub18_ESO

hamon wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

+ 1 insightful.

hamon wrote: »

Now all these things and more are available to all for free. and the bonus is people who actually want it a bit easier can enjoy the game as well.. this breeds a healthy in game population which is win-win for everyone.

Indeed. I re-call ZOS advertising "play how you want."


If I wanted some action-slasher game, I'd go play a game more suited for that genre.

You know the 'play how you want' goes both ways right? It applies to everyone, yes?? Not just the people who want to use stupid builds and be bad. It applies to the leet super dudes with calculators and pocket protectors running equations to figure out how to increase their dps by .025%

And that's the problem. Everyone can throw the quote around and use it for themselves but the quote itself is dumb, and Impossible. Some people wont be able to 'play the way you want' and the only people who are happy are the people who are currently playing the way they want.

well it becomes a choice then. do you accept that by nature if you are a min maxer you are essentially trying to make it as easy as possible. which is fine if thats your thing... I only have a problem when min maxers demand that everything is hard for them which would by logical extention make it insanely hard for anyone who isn't a min maxer.

so the choice is to either min max but accept you will make it easier, or if you want it too be tough keep the min max stuff for raids etc and just goof around naked or use less op builds the rest of the time

Sure It is a choice.

hamon wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Except that this is not a static game. Balance is always subject to change. So you're essentially demanding that anyone who happens to like a challenge in their game needs to look for the crappy FOTM in order to enjoy the game.

There is nothing epic or exciting about gimping yourself in order to compete with less skilled opponents. Pro athletes don't strap their arms and legs together and compete in high school tournaments.

Furthermore, this style of play teaches you absolutely nothing about your build. You won't learn your class better running around without armor or potions or skills. You won't be able to take that knowledge into trials or PVP.

how exactly does the armour you wear change the skills you use in a rotation? if i wear lvl 10 armour do i press diffrent buttons? enlighten me please cos i must not be pro enough to have worked that out

Without wearing the armor... you lose whatever passives you unlocked with them and whatever bonuses they have.

Well then only the most "leet" of "leet" players could pull it off, and then they could strut around the battlefield in the buff to show how great they are - heck, if they're as good as they claim, they could pull it off in PvP.

exactly. i respect these guys who do extraordinary stuff to show their skills. like soloing dungeons etc.. that takes skill. but just telling everyone on a forum to L2P while using the best builds and classes and eating food and buffs is actually ez-mode imo.

Like the choice not to use food and complain something is to hard.

Armianlee

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

I love the argument against this:

- Why would I should I be *forced* to pick a weaker build or intentionally gimp myself in order to face more difficult opponents?

When in counterpoint, you have:

- Why must I be *forced* to use absolutely optimal classes, builds and armor in order to have a playable game?



It's been brought up more than once, when I would make a complaint about the difficulty my archer/nightblade has experienced. "Oh, my sorcerer doesnt' have those problems". Or better, "If you just went destro staff/light armor, you would have no problem".

Balance is a two-fold issue: part of it is the character, and part of it is the world. They've been changing the characters. Now they are changing the world.

My point exactly...

The difficulty needs to be dropped some to accommodate those that need that extra help, but not so much that others have to get naked to feel a challenge.

What really needs to happen is buffs to a certain couple classes.

hamon

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

+ 1 insightful.

hamon wrote: »

Now all these things and more are available to all for free. and the bonus is people who actually want it a bit easier can enjoy the game as well.. this breeds a healthy in game population which is win-win for everyone.

Indeed. I re-call ZOS advertising "play how you want."


If I wanted some action-slasher game, I'd go play a game more suited for that genre.

You know the 'play how you want' goes both ways right? It applies to everyone, yes?? Not just the people who want to use stupid builds and be bad. It applies to the leet super dudes with calculators and pocket protectors running equations to figure out how to increase their dps by .025%

And that's the problem. Everyone can throw the quote around and use it for themselves but the quote itself is dumb, and Impossible. Some people wont be able to 'play the way you want' and the only people who are happy are the people who are currently playing the way they want.

well it becomes a choice then. do you accept that by nature if you are a min maxer you are essentially trying to make it as easy as possible. which is fine if thats your thing... I only have a problem when min maxers demand that everything is hard for them which would by logical extention make it insanely hard for anyone who isn't a min maxer.

so the choice is to either min max but accept you will make it easier, or if you want it too be tough keep the min max stuff for raids etc and just goof around naked or use less op builds the rest of the time

Sure It is a choice.

hamon wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Except that this is not a static game. Balance is always subject to change. So you're essentially demanding that anyone who happens to like a challenge in their game needs to look for the crappy FOTM in order to enjoy the game.

There is nothing epic or exciting about gimping yourself in order to compete with less skilled opponents. Pro athletes don't strap their arms and legs together and compete in high school tournaments.

Furthermore, this style of play teaches you absolutely nothing about your build. You won't learn your class better running around without armor or potions or skills. You won't be able to take that knowledge into trials or PVP.

how exactly does the armour you wear change the skills you use in a rotation? if i wear lvl 10 armour do i press diffrent buttons? enlighten me please cos i must not be pro enough to have worked that out

Without wearing the armor... you lose whatever passives you unlocked with them and whatever bonuses they have.

Well then only the most "leet" of "leet" players could pull it off, and then they could strut around the battlefield in the buff to show how great they are - heck, if they're as good as they claim, they could pull it off in PvP.

exactly. i respect these guys who do extraordinary stuff to show their skills. like soloing dungeons etc.. that takes skill. but just telling everyone on a forum to L2P while using the best builds and classes and eating food and buffs is actually ez-mode imo.

Like the choice not to use food and complain something is to hard.

well if your saying that folk who been saying its too hard simply havent tried using food which would suddenly be the diffrence to make it all easy then i think your smoking too much. yes food makes it slighly easier , i think its safe to assume that most folk will have tried stuff like buff food before being so frustrated they come to forums to complain dont you?

nerevarine1138

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

- Why must I be *forced* to use absolutely optimal classes, builds and armor in order to have a playable game?

At no point has anyone (who has the slightest inkling of what they're doing) said this.

You may not be able to stack your bar with all healing abilities and expect to survive against a Storm Atronach. But the notion that some classes/weapons/armors can't compete in the current environment is flat-out wrong. My main is a VR12 dual-wield/bow medium armor Nightblade. I soloed all VR content that didn't require a group to complete (i.e. everything except public dungeons, world bosses and dolmens), and I did just fine, thank you.

Armianlee

hamon wrote: »

Armianlee wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I don't particularly mind that they're scaling the difficulty down, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't slightly disappointed that the community made this happen.

I recently started leveling an alt. It's been a while since I hit early level content, and I can't even tell you how disheartening it was to see Doshia and Gutsripper in their current state. Previously, these encounters taught players about battle mechanics. They weren't hard once you understood how to fight. The same thing has been true of VR content. Once you understand the mechanics, the fights aren't that hard. You simply had less room for error.

It's not elitist to say that games of this type ought to have some challenge to them. I don't really see what's fun about combat without that learning curve.

yes so if you need more challenge give it to yourself .. handicap yourself as much or as little as you feel comfortable with. its all there for you.

from minor handicaps like not using food right up to proper hardcore handicaps like doing it naked.. all free and giving you that extra challenge you say you want.

Are you kidding me? You're suggesting that people who have worked hard to get great gear just take it off and play the game in the buff? So they have to miss out on some of the best parts of the game so that it can be easy enough for everyone and their dog to get to VR12?

I am not against the lowering of the difficulty, I would like to see more people in the VR zones, but suggesting that someone pretty much just strips out every other aspect of the game so that they can enjoy playing is just as ignorant as them telling you to L2P.

how? i,m not saying they shouldnt be allowed to do anything at all. they can keep all their well earned uber gear in the bag for when they want/need it. But if they want more challenge simply plop it in the bag and do it with lesser gear.

how does that make anyone miss out on anything? unless of course what your wearing at the time is important to how much you enjoy killing stuff? if so why do folk use costumes hiding their armour and stuff? surely that spoils all their fun if how your dressed is what makes playing the game fun? .. i dont undertand your point of view at all

What I mean, and sorry if I wasn't clear. I also didn't mean to quote that post, but your OP, not sure what happened.

Once you tell them to stop using their buffs, their armour, the stuff they craft and spend their time gathering things to make sure their toon can do these areas, they start having to miss out on the game. Now it is just fighting mobs naked like some crazy guy.

What is the point of doing the rest if you cannot/should not use it?

Again, I am all for a drop in difficulty, but it should be something halfway. So the people having a hard time still need to work a little harder, and the people who enjoy the current level a difficulty still have some challenge without getting completely naked.

hamon

Armianlee wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

I love the argument against this:

- Why would I should I be *forced* to pick a weaker build or intentionally gimp myself in order to face more difficult opponents?

When in counterpoint, you have:

- Why must I be *forced* to use absolutely optimal classes, builds and armor in order to have a playable game?



It's been brought up more than once, when I would make a complaint about the difficulty my archer/nightblade has experienced. "Oh, my sorcerer doesnt' have those problems". Or better, "If you just went destro staff/light armor, you would have no problem".

Balance is a two-fold issue: part of it is the character, and part of it is the world. They've been changing the characters. Now they are changing the world.

My point exactly...

The difficulty needs to be dropped some to accommodate those that need that extra help, but not so much that others have to get naked to feel a challenge.

What really needs to happen is buffs to a certain couple classes.

yes having to get naked is at the extreme end of self handicapping for extra difficulty, so using that as the basis for dissagreeing is kinda lame. I said that COULD be for the ultra hardcore. there are lots of incremental things to use before that.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

hamon wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

+ 1 insightful.

hamon wrote: »

Now all these things and more are available to all for free. and the bonus is people who actually want it a bit easier can enjoy the game as well.. this breeds a healthy in game population which is win-win for everyone.

Indeed. I re-call ZOS advertising "play how you want."


If I wanted some action-slasher game, I'd go play a game more suited for that genre.

You know the 'play how you want' goes both ways right? It applies to everyone, yes?? Not just the people who want to use stupid builds and be bad. It applies to the leet super dudes with calculators and pocket protectors running equations to figure out how to increase their dps by .025%

And that's the problem. Everyone can throw the quote around and use it for themselves but the quote itself is dumb, and Impossible. Some people wont be able to 'play the way you want' and the only people who are happy are the people who are currently playing the way they want.

well it becomes a choice then. do you accept that by nature if you are a min maxer you are essentially trying to make it as easy as possible. which is fine if thats your thing... I only have a problem when min maxers demand that everything is hard for them which would by logical extention make it insanely hard for anyone who isn't a min maxer.

so the choice is to either min max but accept you will make it easier, or if you want it too be tough keep the min max stuff for raids etc and just goof around naked or use less op builds the rest of the time

Sure It is a choice.

hamon wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

nudel wrote: »

Except that this is not a static game. Balance is always subject to change. So you're essentially demanding that anyone who happens to like a challenge in their game needs to look for the crappy FOTM in order to enjoy the game.

There is nothing epic or exciting about gimping yourself in order to compete with less skilled opponents. Pro athletes don't strap their arms and legs together and compete in high school tournaments.

Furthermore, this style of play teaches you absolutely nothing about your build. You won't learn your class better running around without armor or potions or skills. You won't be able to take that knowledge into trials or PVP.

how exactly does the armour you wear change the skills you use in a rotation? if i wear lvl 10 armour do i press diffrent buttons? enlighten me please cos i must not be pro enough to have worked that out

Without wearing the armor... you lose whatever passives you unlocked with them and whatever bonuses they have.

Well then only the most "leet" of "leet" players could pull it off, and then they could strut around the battlefield in the buff to show how great they are - heck, if they're as good as they claim, they could pull it off in PvP.

exactly. i respect these guys who do extraordinary stuff to show their skills. like soloing dungeons etc.. that takes skill. but just telling everyone on a forum to L2P while using the best builds and classes and eating food and buffs is actually ez-mode imo.

Like the choice not to use food and complain something is to hard.

well if your saying that folk who been saying its too hard simply havent tried using food which would suddenly be the diffrence to make it all easy then i think your smoking too much. yes food makes it slighly easier , i think its safe to assume that most folk will have tried stuff like buff food before being so frustrated they come to forums to complain dont you?

Ah sorry I got confused. When you said using buffs and eating food was actually easy mode, I assumed you meant it made things easier.

It would also appear to be one of your ways to make the game harder by not using them.

hamon

Armianlee wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

Armianlee wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I don't particularly mind that they're scaling the difficulty down, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't slightly disappointed that the community made this happen.

I recently started leveling an alt. It's been a while since I hit early level content, and I can't even tell you how disheartening it was to see Doshia and Gutsripper in their current state. Previously, these encounters taught players about battle mechanics. They weren't hard once you understood how to fight. The same thing has been true of VR content. Once you understand the mechanics, the fights aren't that hard. You simply had less room for error.

It's not elitist to say that games of this type ought to have some challenge to them. I don't really see what's fun about combat without that learning curve.

yes so if you need more challenge give it to yourself .. handicap yourself as much or as little as you feel comfortable with. its all there for you.

from minor handicaps like not using food right up to proper hardcore handicaps like doing it naked.. all free and giving you that extra challenge you say you want.

Are you kidding me? You're suggesting that people who have worked hard to get great gear just take it off and play the game in the buff? So they have to miss out on some of the best parts of the game so that it can be easy enough for everyone and their dog to get to VR12?

I am not against the lowering of the difficulty, I would like to see more people in the VR zones, but suggesting that someone pretty much just strips out every other aspect of the game so that they can enjoy playing is just as ignorant as them telling you to L2P.

how? i,m not saying they shouldnt be allowed to do anything at all. they can keep all their well earned uber gear in the bag for when they want/need it. But if they want more challenge simply plop it in the bag and do it with lesser gear.

how does that make anyone miss out on anything? unless of course what your wearing at the time is important to how much you enjoy killing stuff? if so why do folk use costumes hiding their armour and stuff? surely that spoils all their fun if how your dressed is what makes playing the game fun? .. i dont undertand your point of view at all

What I mean, and sorry if I wasn't clear. I also didn't mean to quote that post, but your OP, not sure what happened.

Once you tell them to stop using their buffs, their armour, the stuff they craft and spend their time gathering things to make sure their toon can do these areas, they start having to miss out on the game. Now it is just fighting mobs naked like some crazy guy.

What is the point of doing the rest if you cannot/should not use it?

Again, I am all for a drop in difficulty, but it should be something halfway. So the people having a hard time still need to work a little harder, and the people who enjoy the current level a difficulty still have some challenge without getting completely naked.

yes i agree that it would be over nerfed if being naked to get a good fight became the norm.. i am not advocating that. I thought i'd made it clear that doing that could be for the ultra hardcore crazy people who enjoy pushing things to the max.

my whole point is that there are many and varied ways already available for folk who find it a little easy.

for example one of the hardest things i done back in vanilla wow was a naked gnome race from one end of the world to the other. ironforge to stormwind perhaps . it was crazy and you died millions of times especially in stranglthorn vale i think... that was a classic example of self made hard content.

it was a little imagination and suddenly some difficult (if utterly pointless content was forged)