Dizzying Swing Update

max_only

I’m literally trash tier in pvp, .8 seconds is an eternity fo

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

I was able to finally kill one person with dizzying swing who wasn’t afk on a transitus shrine or siege. I should have recorded it for posterity.

People who stood still during such a long wind up have only themselves to blame.

Please stop acting like a 0.8 second wind up is significant in any capacity.

I’m literally trash tier in pvp, .8 seconds is an eternity for me. If I can last that long between keep rides im in a good mood. But now that you mention it, today I (finally) logged in for my usual time slot and I actually killed someone with a dizzy/onslaught combo. They were trying to hide in the keep we just took and 2 other people helped me halfway through.

I’m finally OP cheese!

As a carebear I will never say L2p. I’m glad you got it nerfed, I don’t think it will make any difference. People who delete others off the field will continue to do so until pvp becomes a tickle fight.

cmvet

MajBludd wrote: »

I guess you'll have to see if you are any good without it. If you are a decent player it shouldn't stop you, but if you can't I guess it was a crutch.

you mean he can't just spam dizzy anymore and dizzy lag players? Unbreakable/lag cc that somehow gets 3 to land in 1.5 seconds. It currently is as annoying as snipe spam. It just needs to have the time readjusted. It was fine before they made it faster, just revert, call it good.

I won't miss the death recaps with 5 dizzy swings from 2 players despite a dodge roll.

Ysbriel

Demra wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Demra wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

I guess you'll have to see if you are any good without it. If you are a decent player it shouldn't stop you, but if you can't I guess it was a crutch.

Yup, if you suddenly can't get kills without old DS, then it was carrying you.

I got more kills without ds, that's not the issue... it was last fun skill i had in the game. Over the past 2 years out of the 5 skills i enjoyed using only 1 left. If the combat is not fun why bother playing? Just for ap?

Good, so not being able to spam it win shouldn't even be an issue for you at all. The good news is, now you don't have to worry about running it on your builds, you have a free slot for other things!

Did you not read? There is a problem, it is not tied to winning. What skill should a 2hander use than?

I tried it in BGs already, its still hitting hard, still i think it should be like crushing shock and interrupt a casting opponent. You don’t need to replace it with nothing , just be aggressive.

edit: however it also should have that 0.8 cast time removed if its no longer a knockback, there are other spammables that hit as hard and don’t have it.

Van_Winkle

I am so glad, that this dizzy-nonsense has ended. Hordes of no brain apes with their one-button build are gone. And now i am saying to them - L2P.

Ysbriel

Van_Winkle wrote: »

I am so glad, that this dizzy-nonsense has ended. Hordes of no brain apes with their one-button build are gone. And now i am saying to them - L2P.

If its not people spamming swing it will be people spamming templar jabs, crushing shock, poison injections, birds of prey, dumping degeneration and soultrap, its not a L2P it’s just a thrend here of the usual suspects to set sights on whatever is competitive against them.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

Ysbriel wrote: »

Van_Winkle wrote: »

I am so glad, that this dizzy-nonsense has ended. Hordes of no brain apes with their one-button build are gone. And now i am saying to them - L2P.

If its not people spamming swing it will be people spamming templar jabs, crushing shock, poison injections, birds of prey, dumping degeneration and soultrap, its not a L2P it’s just a thrend here of the usual suspects to set sights on whatever is competitive against them.

You are correct; however the thing that made dizzying so hated over the things you listed was that you had no control over your character and you can't break free till you hit the ground. Thats enough time for someone to Onslaught + Shalk + Execute and believe me, thats not fun to be on receiving end.

Ysbriel

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

Ysbriel wrote: »

Van_Winkle wrote: »

I am so glad, that this dizzy-nonsense has ended. Hordes of no brain apes with their one-button build are gone. And now i am saying to them - L2P.

If its not people spamming swing it will be people spamming templar jabs, crushing shock, poison injections, birds of prey, dumping degeneration and soultrap, its not a L2P it’s just a thrend here of the usual suspects to set sights on whatever is competitive against them.

You are correct; however the thing that made dizzying so hated over the things you listed was that you had no control over your character and you can't break free till you hit the ground. Thats enough time for someone to Onslaught + Shalk + Execute and believe me, thats not fun to be on receiving end.

Ive been there but it’s no different than a toppling charge , jab jab jab jab jab jab or a destructive clench , frags , wrath or a continuous crushing shock. taking the knockback out and at least not make that it would interrupt like the crushing shock or at least remove that 0.8 second cast just made it plain. still it hits hard but it leaves you out defenseless where others have options.

nejcn001

Spamables shouldn't have CC.
DOT's should be around 15-20 sec long.
Buffs should be around 30 sec long.

As a dizzy user, im miss it, but it makes a logical change.
The HA knockdown from offbalance should be longer tho.

scottii

Surprised no one has mentioned stam wardens essentially have no CC. Off balance doesn't count because you have to land a heavy attack to get the stun effect.

Melee vs. melee isn't that big of a problem. However there is a ton of players in PVP that have very easy easy escape. Sorcs have streaks. Nightblades have the shade move (I forgot the name), and then everyone can pretty much dodge roll or trait swift on their jewelry.

DS should have had the CC removed, but rather have the damage decreased more so people wouldn't necessarily use it as a spammable. Seemingly, CC's in general are not supposed to have high damage but act as a utility in your rotation.

scottii

Sorry, I forgot to include Circle of Protection (Fear morph) in the second section. You cannot chain a fear on top of someone who has been set off balance. It's no problem in melee fighters, just extremely difficult for ranged and speed builds.

Morgha_Kul

The original version of the skill was slower (and looked better, IMO). What I would rather have seen done is two things, if indeed something needed doing.

First, restore the original cast time and animation. Second, make it interruptable. That would allow those of us who liked it for PvE CHARACTER reasons (eg. my Nord berzerker was conceived as being immensely strong, so the knockback was a big part of enjoying him) to keep using it, while making it less onerous for PvP players who don't know how to block.

Ysbriel

scottii wrote: »

Surprised no one has mentioned stam wardens essentially have no CC. Off balance doesn't count because you have to land a heavy attack to get the stun effect.

Melee vs. melee isn't that big of a problem. However there is a ton of players in PVP that have very easy easy escape. Sorcs have streaks. Nightblades have the shade move (I forgot the name), and then everyone can pretty much dodge roll or trait swift on their jewelry.

DS should have had the CC removed, but rather have the damage decreased more so people wouldn't necessarily use it as a spammable. Seemingly, CC's in general are not supposed to have high damage but act as a utility in your rotation.

Damaged lowered? might as well ask them to nullify the whole 2h skill line then, my magdens birds hit harder than a DS
The skill could had been very well left alone due to the fact that is a melee skill in a Ranged dominant PvP, by the time you even get to whack one single person you already had over 5 dots applied to you anyways. The "I DOT you, YOU go down" is real on PvP and DS is the only non DOT melee weapon skill worth using. You won't hear any melee fighters complain about getting killed by another melee fighter using the DS because once again its the ranged DOT people that expect to win all the time by dumping it all from 28 meters but when the enemy charges at them and nails a few in and they don't know what to do its "oh that should be nerfed.

DeathPK

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

As of today, I StrandedMonkey of the eso player base and forum posters will never spend a dollar on eso again.

i am the consumer and i am extremely outraged by the dizzying swing nerf
my opinion is just as valid as yours

discuss

[Title edit for click bait.]

You're only upset because dizzying swing has been nerfed after it being meta for years. It was a bit of a problem when every class use it as there main spammable. It is also still viable 16% damage nerf is a bit much but the stun isn't a big problem seeming it sets them off balance. Medium attack them to stun them into an ult that will do 10% more damage. I definitely don't think the skill is dead.

Chilly-McFreeze

Ysbriel wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

Surprised no one has mentioned stam wardens essentially have no CC. Off balance doesn't count because you have to land a heavy attack to get the stun effect.

Melee vs. melee isn't that big of a problem. However there is a ton of players in PVP that have very easy easy escape. Sorcs have streaks. Nightblades have the shade move (I forgot the name), and then everyone can pretty much dodge roll or trait swift on their jewelry.

DS should have had the CC removed, but rather have the damage decreased more so people wouldn't necessarily use it as a spammable. Seemingly, CC's in general are not supposed to have high damage but act as a utility in your rotation.

Damaged lowered? might as well ask them to nullify the whole 2h skill line then, my magdens birds hit harder than a DS

Well, for what it's worth Crit Rush steadily moved up as possible alternative for dmg since the last few patches. /s

Nevidyra

Bro don't *** talk about dizzy you know how hard that playstyle is? You gotta spam one button until it stuns then cast an onslaught that *** is impossible for trashcans like me to pull off.

On a more serious note, this thread is just full of people crying that their one-button crutch got removed and that they have to A) simply weave a medium attack in for a stun, or diversify their build and stop relying on a single button to do everything for them.

Dizzy was just melee lethal arrow. Same one-button brainless crutch spamming. They weren't different. L2p.

Dr_Ganknstein

Why not just retire from pvp and become a full time crafter and tell stories of the good old days?

Weisstag

Shouldn't have spammed it so much bois now you get a chance to learn how to play without helping wheels... stinky tanks this patch brings a lot of smiles to me

Stratti

This is a case of another company screwing the pooch. Just when you were gaining momentum you have done something as crazy as upset a huge portion of your player base.

Stratti

I can tell you an unintended consequence of no dizzy is that heal builds just block and spam heals = unkillable.

GG ZOS

Cirantille

Last week,

A guy spammed this 4 times on me. Like 4 "dizzying swing" I could not break free on my death cap.

Shows some skill indeed......................... Left click spammer Skyrim players

And guess what was the 5th time while I was trying to break free outta this buggy frik?

Yeap, that.

This week they are drained quickly *sed*

Stratti

Cirantille wrote: »

Last week,

A guy spammed this 4 times on me. Like 4 "dizzying swing" I could not break free on my death cap.

Shows some skill indeed......................... Left click spammer Skyrim players

And guess what was the 5th time while I was trying to break free outta this buggy frik?

Yeap, that.

This week they are drained quickly *sed*

Please explain how you can be the victim of four dizzy swings without breaking free or without the CC falling off. You get immune to it for a time and there is a 1s cast time with I think a 2s stun.

When I was using it I could get 1 while they were getting up and maybe another. If they were stupid enough to stand still they would get more.

So I think the answer is to nerf every single class that has the ability to stun lock you. Remove all of it - why just attack the 2h builds.

I can see ZOS losing out hard this patch.

Upset the 2h pvpers
Upset the hardcore Trial DPS
Upset almost everyone else

It is almost as if they are not listening to people anymore.

Cirantille

Stratti wrote: »

Cirantille wrote: »

Last week,

A guy spammed this 4 times on me. Like 4 "dizzying swing" I could not break free on my death cap.

Shows some skill indeed......................... Left click spammer Skyrim players

And guess what was the 5th time while I was trying to break free outta this buggy frik?

Yeap, that.

This week they are drained quickly *sed*

Please explain how you can be the victim of four dizzy swings without breaking free or without the CC falling off. You get immune to it for a time and there is a 1s cast time with I think a 2s stun.

When I was using it I could get 1 while they were getting up and maybe another. If they were stupid enough to stand still they would get more.

So I think the answer is to nerf every single class that has the ability to stun lock you. Remove all of it - why just attack the 2h builds.

I can see ZOS losing out hard this patch.

Upset the 2h pvpers
Upset the hardcore Trial DPS
Upset almost everyone else

It is almost as if they are not listening to people anymore.

Honestly I am upset about my sustain in my both stamina and magicka characters, and I am not even slotting nerfed skills but some reason I can not spam skills even in cheese pve content, real sed

Mayrael

ZOS he won't spend money but I will because of dizzy nerf and many more will do the same, good job!

jcm2606

1. If you were getting chain CC'd by Dizzy, or otherwise unable to break the stun, that's not a problem with Dizzy, rather a problem with the knockback. The fix shouldn't removing the knockback, it should be fixing the knockback.

2. Dizzy isn't easy to land, that's why it's spammed so much.

Due to how its targeting works, it is prone to cancelling itself if your opponent either moves out of range, strafes too far off to one side, or even moves too close to you. (All targeted melee skills have these problems, but anything with a cast or channel time tend to be the worst.)

This might be a minor annoyance on a quick connection (as in, you live close to the servers), or in low lag, but on a *** connection or in high lag, this borderline makes the skill unusable.

3. Dizzy was so ubiquitous, because it was the last remaining spammable that was actually good for 3 of the 6 stamina classes in the game (stamDK, stamsorc, stamcro).

In the same patch that they buffed Dizzy, they nerfed sword and board as a whole, pushing it away from a raw damage weapon towards a more utility-oriented weapon, while not giving dual wield or bow any actually good alternatives, which pushed everyone without a class spammable towards 2H and Dizzy.

Flurry is plagued with the same targeting shenanigans that Dizzy had, except it had no huge burst to reward the amount of recasts and lost brain cells trying to get it to land.

Reverse Slice and Steel Tornado are both executes, and need a very high amount of damage behind them to bring a target down into execute range, allowing them to scale well.

Snipe is, well, Snipe, and doesn't fit melee playstyles.

Crushing Weapon is pretty clunky to use as a spammable in an actual fight, in my experience.

Silver Shards lacks the damage of other spammables (a little under Crushing Weapon's tooltip, way under Flurry and Dizzy, under other class spammables).

4. With all of the above considered, the response shouldn't have been to take the knockback away and reduce the damage. Nerfing a good alternative to a garbage skill doesn't make the garbage skill any less garbage. Nerfing Dizzy isn't making other alternatives less garbage, it's just removing the one good spammable, forcing everybody onto the other garbage spammables.

The response should have been to keep the knockback, but fix any issues with it (just fix knockback in general, TBH), but...

Either, keep the cast time where it is now (it makes the targeting a bit more bearable, but it's still ***), but nerf the damage, OR, keep the damage where it is now, push the cast time back up to 1 second, and rework targeting so it isn't as unreliable as it currently is.

To my knowledge, Dizzy basically has two targeting checks -- one at the start of the cast, and one at the end -- and both need to successfully resolve for it to land.

For comfort's sake, take the first away, so we're not left spamming it trying to get it to start casting, and turn the second into a narrow conal AoE, where the player needs to keep the target in the cone for Dizzy to land. Dizzy can continue casting, even when the target leaves the cone, it just won't hit anything if they do leave the cone.

Dizzy is a spammable, it is designed to be spammed. Complaining about Dizzy being spammed is the same as complaining about Surprise Attack, or Whip, or jabs, or any other spammable, being spammed. It is nonsensical. At least by doing the above, you're addressing the reason why it is seemingly spammed ad nauseum, while still keeping the risk/reward playstyle of the skill, due to raising the cast time back up to 1 second.

Nicalas

jcm2606 wrote: »

1. If you were getting chain CC'd by Dizzy, or otherwise unable to break the stun, that's not a problem with Dizzy, rather a problem with the knockback. The fix shouldn't removing the knockback, it should be fixing the knockback.

2. Dizzy isn't easy to land, that's why it's spammed so much.

Due to how its targeting works, it is prone to cancelling itself if your opponent either moves out of range, strafes too far off to one side, or even moves too close to you. (All targeted melee skills have these problems, but anything with a cast or channel time tend to be the worst.)

This might be a minor annoyance on a quick connection (as in, you live close to the servers), or in low lag, but on a *** connection or in high lag, this borderline makes the skill unusable.

3. Dizzy was so ubiquitous, because it was the last remaining spammable that was actually good for 3 of the 6 stamina classes in the game (stamDK, stamsorc, stamcro).

In the same patch that they buffed Dizzy, they nerfed sword and board as a whole, pushing it away from a raw damage weapon towards a more utility-oriented weapon, while not giving dual wield or bow any actually good alternatives, which pushed everyone without a class spammable towards 2H and Dizzy.

Flurry is plagued with the same targeting shenanigans that Dizzy had, except it had no huge burst to reward the amount of recasts and lost brain cells trying to get it to land.

Reverse Slice and Steel Tornado are both executes, and need a very high amount of damage behind them to bring a target down into execute range, allowing them to scale well.

Snipe is, well, Snipe, and doesn't fit melee playstyles.

Crushing Weapon is pretty clunky to use as a spammable in an actual fight, in my experience.

Silver Shards lacks the damage of other spammables (a little under Crushing Weapon's tooltip, way under Flurry and Dizzy, under other class spammables).

4. With all of the above considered, the response shouldn't have been to take the knockback away and reduce the damage. Nerfing a good alternative to a garbage skill doesn't make the garbage skill any less garbage. Nerfing Dizzy isn't making other alternatives less garbage, it's just removing the one good spammable, forcing everybody onto the other garbage spammables.

The response should have been to keep the knockback, but fix any issues with it (just fix knockback in general, TBH), but...

Either, keep the cast time where it is now (it makes the targeting a bit more bearable, but it's still ***), but nerf the damage, OR, keep the damage where it is now, push the cast time back up to 1 second, and rework targeting so it isn't as unreliable as it currently is.

To my knowledge, Dizzy basically has two targeting checks -- one at the start of the cast, and one at the end -- and both need to successfully resolve for it to land.

For comfort's sake, take the first away, so we're not left spamming it trying to get it to start casting, and turn the second into a narrow conal AoE, where the player needs to keep the target in the cone for Dizzy to land. Dizzy can continue casting, even when the target leaves the cone, it just won't hit anything if they do leave the cone.

Dizzy is a spammable, it is designed to be spammed. Complaining about Dizzy being spammed is the same as complaining about Surprise Attack, or Whip, or jabs, or any other spammable, being spammed. It is nonsensical. At least by doing the above, you're addressing the reason why it is seemingly spammed ad nauseum, while still keeping the risk/reward playstyle of the skill, due to raising the cast time back up to 1 second.

This is the most informed post I have seen about dizzy. Great job.

The last few patches have removed all of the other stamina spammable alternatives.

For some reason all of our spammable skills are either ranged Hidden Blade,Silver Bolts,Cutting Dive, Stonefist or clunky Imbue Weapon/Rapid Strikes. Stamina does not have any burst combo's.

Unfortunately the 2H kit does not work without Dizzy knockback. In order to use my ultimate I have to back bar a stun and then bar swap Onslaught. Any half decent player who knows how to break free will not get hit by this combo you also lose the burst damage from the Dizzy. Magnum shot does too little damage. SNB stun does too little damage and the animation prevents a smooth transition. Turn Evil does no damage. You cannot effectively use onslaught without a main bar stun. Good luck finding the bar space. Stamina needs constant pressure, healing denial or CC/Burst. They have taken our options away. They took away Bleeds. They took away SnB weaving with Reverb defile. The Dizzy knock back allowed a burst window in which the enemy loses character control. How are we supposed to build now?

There is no way to lock down a target long enough to effectively burst. Every magicka class except maybe MagCro has a defined burst rotation. Some more effective than others. Stamina as it is outside of Stamplar running POTL/JABS have no options.

Combat changes can't be about just math and categorization. You can't just take a SpammableA , CCA , UltimateA, and ExecuteA and still be successful. I can't just substitute SpammableB for A because the damage and cost are the same. CC's are not interchangeable. Ultimates are not interchangeable.

Stamina needs skill synergy and build options. When changes are made they have to make sense not just from a power budget but from a play style perspective. The skills have to have the functionality to make them useful in a rotation/combo

I am by no means saying you have to revert these things. But when you change the functionality of the skills you need to give us functional alternatives. By all means tell us what skills we can use for effective burst rotations? If you can provide me with viable examples and alternatives against competent players. I will gladly shut my mouth and enjoy the game.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

scottii

Ysbriel wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

Surprised no one has mentioned stam wardens essentially have no CC. Off balance doesn't count because you have to land a heavy attack to get the stun effect.

Melee vs. melee isn't that big of a problem. However there is a ton of players in PVP that have very easy easy escape. Sorcs have streaks. Nightblades have the shade move (I forgot the name), and then everyone can pretty much dodge roll or trait swift on their jewelry.

DS should have had the CC removed, but rather have the damage decreased more so people wouldn't necessarily use it as a spammable. Seemingly, CC's in general are not supposed to have high damage but act as a utility in your rotation.

Damaged lowered? might as well ask them to nullify the whole 2h skill line then, my magdens birds hit harder than a DS
The skill could had been very well left alone due to the fact that is a melee skill in a Ranged dominant PvP, by the time you even get to whack one single person you already had over 5 dots applied to you anyways. The "I DOT you, YOU go down" is real on PvP and DS is the only non DOT melee weapon skill worth using. You won't hear any melee fighters complain about getting killed by another melee fighter using the DS because once again its the ranged DOT people that expect to win all the time by dumping it all from 28 meters but when the enemy charges at them and nails a few in and they don't know what to do its "oh that should be nerfed.

I completely understand that, but if they are going to make a change to it, it shouldn't be nerfed beyond oblivion. No that isn't an ESO reference. =P

When the servers come back up, I'm going to try testing out Silver Leash. It at least is a form of ranged CC that slows and pulls the target to you. At least with the slow CC effect, heavy attack will at least be easier to land a stun. But still, this is a lot of effort going forward to land a combo leading up to an ult. Other characters have to make littler to no effort at all to setup their combo.

CynicK

I have tryed it with molten armaments and the heavy attack does more damage than the dizzy swing so i do not like the nerf of 16% damage because it eclipsed dots, I see nerf calls incoming.
I had not thought of after the heavy attack using the ultimat for the 10% more damage I think it is very combo friendly now well most weapon skill lines had an attack that stuned and they are removing that, people said that was op, the only one that did not had one is dual wield and restoration staff and they seem to have thought to remove those stuns, I do not like that those changes come into a 5 year old game I already gave them for guaranted, but i find the new dizzy swing very interesting because it alway gives you a way to improve your sustain plus you can still stun and with it you can use that set that gives you bonus damage with off balance and it works with bosses too but just every 20 sec.
Obviously I will miss throwing people down places with it but well...

jonathanb16_ESO

scottii wrote: »

Surprised no one has mentioned stam wardens essentially have no CC. Off balance doesn't count because you have to land a heavy attack to get the stun effect.

Melee vs. melee isn't that big of a problem. However there is a ton of players in PVP that have very easy easy escape. Sorcs have streaks. Nightblades have the shade move (I forgot the name), and then everyone can pretty much dodge roll or trait swift on their jewelry.

DS should have had the CC removed, but rather have the damage decreased more so people wouldn't necessarily use it as a spammable. Seemingly, CC's in general are not supposed to have high damage but act as a utility in your rotation.

I use db if i cant get an offbalance stun and now i can run ifinity as an orc in medium and netch, so try it sorc i dare you, i will get you!

ESTyll13

just sad to see what ZOS hs done

StrandedMonkey

ESTyll13 wrote: »

just sad to see what ZOS hs done

for real