why is stonefist ranged?

Wing

I say this as a DK main btw, not asking for nerf or something, but pointing out theme.

for instance, if you look at a sorc skill like crystal frags, or a templar skill like reflective light. they have other ranged skills in their toolkit to compliment that ability.

DK now has a ranged spamable (stone fist)

and NO OTHER RANGED DD ABILITIES (to that extent)

DK as a class and theme is about point blank combat, you pull enemies to you, or yourself to them, and lock / burn them down. all of DK's dots are within a 5-10m melee range.

I assume this is for what? bow DK? so you spam this and light attack weave in-between?

for years DK having been asking for a stamina whip, for what I assume would be obvious reasons, it fits the theme, its already a spamable, can easily make it green and call it poison, DONE, and for years you have been trying to make stone fist do something. this reeks so bad of a blatant REFUSAL to admit that maybe the players were right, maybe stam whip should be a thing.

you are going out of your way to avoid simple changes that we have been asking for to implement awkward ones that don't do what we want them to do.


I HATE it when devs of any kind, in any game take this approach, players ask for something simple, and devs take EVERY OTHER coarse of action over years just to avoid giving the players what they wanted, because doing so would somehow say "yup the players were right, the devs were wrong." but because devs refuse to do that, we get crappy skills, crappy gameplay, crappy "fixes" that nobody wanted.

thanks for giving us something dumb because of your refusal to admit failure.

BohnT2

Because for some reason the devs think that after giving both necro and warden a ranged spammable which none of them use it would be a good reason to give stamdk one too.

Strider__Roshin

Nothing screams range attack like the word "fist" lol.

BohnT2

And then they implement a half-assed skill which is worse than its competitors because they try to make a skill which can work for the lost souls trying to play a ranged build on stam because they need their legolas roleplay and the rest of the people end up with this trash skill while the legolas cat army is still sitting behind the zerg spamming snipe.

Wing

BohnT2 wrote: »

And then they implement a half-assed skill which is worse than its competitors because they try to make a skill which can work for the lost souls trying to play a ranged build on stam because they need their legolas roleplay and the rest of the people end up with this trash skill while the legolas cat army is still sitting behind the zerg spamming snipe.

they have been trying to make this skill work for years, it was a stun, then it was damage, then it was a heal? now its EITHER a heal or a stam spamable?

Austinseph1

There are ranged builds, and really no reason not to allow to them not to have the option to use a class spamable for it. Warden and dk make some of the best/funnest bow builds because of it. Not everybody who uses stamina based dps should be forced into meele range, bow builds actually do great damage and are very fun to play. You can easily get 40k+ dps on a normal dummy and 70/80k on the raid atro on live which is far more than you need to clear any content in the game. With the dive/swarm changes Bowdens and BowDK will be even more viable in comparison.

Also regardless of the range stamdk now preforms very well in a group and raid setting because of the debuff it provides, 140 damage on all skills is actually much better than you think. Damage taken is a stronger buff than damage done because of how damage is calculated on both ends. The reason they chose to keep whip as is is probably because both morphs have a place in either PvE or PvP and just because you ask for something does not obligate the creators to do it. Having split skills will allow both to be balanced separately and have a slightly different feel between the 2 styles.

LinearParadox

Daus wrote: »

Nothing screams range attack like the word "fist" lol.

Ranged "fist", brought to you by the people that invented the term "kiss-curse" rather than say... iunno... trade-off. -_-

Wing wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

And then they implement a half-assed skill which is worse than its competitors because they try to make a skill which can work for the lost souls trying to play a ranged build on stam because they need their legolas roleplay and the rest of the people end up with this trash skill while the legolas cat army is still sitting behind the zerg spamming snipe.

they have been trying to make this skill work for years, it was a stun, then it was damage, then it was a heal? now its EITHER a heal or a stam spamable?

Part of me wonders if we should just be happy that they're at least still trying rather than leaving it by the wayside like so many other dead skills in the game xD

KingExecration

It would be way cooler being an actual uppercut. I’m not big on playing stam dk but it’d be awesome for more of a fist than another range spammable. Of course compensate it for being close range if it’s changed.

Ragnarock41

Austinseph1 wrote: »

There are ranged builds, and really no reason not to allow to them not to have the option to use a class spamable for it. Warden and dk make some of the best/funnest bow builds because of it. Not everybody who uses stamina based dps should be forced into meele range, bow builds actually do great damage and are very fun to play. You can easily get 40k+ dps on a normal dummy and 70/80k on the raid atro on live which is far more than you need to clear any content in the game. With the dive/swarm changes Bowdens and BowDK will be even more viable in comparison.

Also regardless of the range stamdk now preforms very well in a group and raid setting because of the debuff it provides, 140 damage on all skills is actually much better than you think. Damage taken is a stronger buff than damage done because of how damage is calculated on both ends. The reason they chose to keep whip as is is probably because both morphs have a place in either PvE or PvP and just because you ask for something does not obligate the creators to do it. Having split skills will allow both to be balanced separately and have a slightly different feel between the 2 styles.

Diversity and off-meta builds were NOT the focus of this update. We were promised ''identity'' and yes, specificly for stamina too. And bow DK is the very opposite of it.

If they wanted to give off-meta bow DK a spammable (even though they had lethal arrow with %25 cost reduction), before giving stamDK something that would improve its identity ''poison dragon'' then I'm out of words to say.

There are no split skills, there is no melee spammable for the class that is primarily melee. there is only poopfist, because apparently the two bow DK mains are more important than all the other stamDK players. Cool.

OG_Kaveman

. and NO OTHER RANGED DD ABILITIES (to that extent)

Flames of Oblivion?

Xvorg

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

. and NO OTHER RANGED DD ABILITIES (to that extent)

Flames of Oblivion?

Rotating poop?

MentalxHammer

This skill has completely missed the mark, the secondary functions stun is useless in pvp and pve, I agree it makes absolutely no sense for the stam dk kit to have this as a ranged ability.

huschdeguddzje

Just play the standard punch animation and put some flashy effect over it.

Wing

huschdeguddzje wrote: »

Just play the standard punch animation and put some flashy effect over it.

one punch man DK incoming

BattleAxe

Combat team missed the mark entirely a stam whip would have been recieved millions of times better

Wing

BattleAxe wrote: »

Combat team missed the mark entirely a stam whip would have been recieved millions of times better

cannot agree more then once, it feels so combative from a devs vs players point of view to just not give us the obvious choice we have been asking for going on years now.

BattleAxe

Wing wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Combat team missed the mark entirely a stam whip would have been recieved millions of times better

cannot agree more then once, it feels so combative from a devs vs players point of view to just not give us the obvious choice we have been asking for going on years now.

The problem comes down to how do they give us a stam whip without further hurting mag dks an idea would be combine both morphs into one giving mag dk a strong possibly op spammable then give stam dk a poison whip could even have something tied to sustain possibly just make it like a leeching poison essentially being a stam morph and heal for stam dk.
Stone fist/giant as I suggested on another post could be turned into some type of taunt with an aoe taunt tied to max stagger stacks.

Grandma

one day they'll realize all the homogenization of classes all having the same skills with different colors / minor side effects won't be good. I'm sick of every class meta having to subscribe to "an aoe dot, a st dot, a spam, a proc" like... i want classes that are better at one thing than the other. I know that's not the vision they have but that's just what i enjoy more from class flavor personally.

i have no idea. it's probably going to be a pain in pvp somehow and people will cry for it to get nerfed, and instead of nerfing the range they'll just nerf the damage or something.

Fur_like_snow

Because something something PvE bow/bow DK build brought to you by YouTube guy something something don’t forget to ring the bell.

TLDR: because PvE.

sindalstar

I feel sad for anyone who had the idea of being an form of archer/ranged unit in this game.
No class catered to that need until warden and necro came out. And even then it wasn't because they get got an amazing spam able.

You were all melee classes.
You all mostly still are.
-NB has no ranged spamable. Much better in mellee
-Templar has no ranged spamable. Much better in melee
-Sorcerer has no ranged spamable. Encouraged to be a magicka user.
-DK 'now' has one. A currently problematic one according to most. (The problem being the visuals and it's range mostly, not many people -have commented on it's damage though if I'm remembering right its 'just ok' but not the 'fantastic' levels people want out of class abilities)
-Warden 'sorta' has one but I've never seen anyone use it much because of it's speed and it's passives not being fantastic.
-I don't even know what the necro spamable animation looks like. Its not in any of the top builds.

I know I'm not a DK main, and you all are perfectly valid in your opinion but you guys have been so emotionally attached to a stamina whip almost for the reason of 'it's what we want'.

I asked my friend about it (Who is a DK and DD's), purely on a conceptual level how they felt about stone fist. He said it made sense at least, since the passives for the earthen heart ability mix relatively well for spamming (helping hands and mountain) while the ardent flame ones are about making the dots last longer and do more damage. A poison whip could possibly trigger that 'poison status' passive and the poison cost passive i guess...

I dunno. I don't see why it 'can't' be ranged. If you don't want it to be ranged because 'you don't want it to be ranged' then I could just as easily say "Why not? If it works and is brought up to a point where it performs quite well"

Schattenfluegel

Where is the problem? You can use it in meleerange, too.

vesselwiththepestle

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Where is the problem? You can use it in meleerange, too.

It's not Poison Whip, that's the problem . A ranged spammable isn't suitable to proc effects which require melee damage (Berserking Warrior, Selene). I don't think it will be widely used outside of Trials, though, anyway. It's good for damage parses because you get Minor Brutality. In a 4-player-group Minor Brutality will mostly be provided by a dk tank. I personally used Shrouded Dagger as spammable in 4-player-dungeons with great success for the additional cleave in trash fights and the occasional interrupt, which can be quite useful in some dlc dungeons. I don't think I'll change to Stonefist in 4-player-dungeons. The fights are short anyway, you want to burn through the trash fast and Stonefist is a pure Single Target ability, also there are only 1-2 other dps you buff with the damage taken stagger vs lots of dps in a trial. In solo content like vma I've used Shrouded Dagger, too. I might give Stonefist a try there, because I could use the minor brutality and the interrupt from Shrouded Dagger is only really useful in 2 arenas.

Honestly I spend more time in dungeons and pvp than in trials, so Stonefist will have a low impact for me.

In general I am with Stonefist, I don't think however it is good enough to be on the bar all the time. I think many DKs would have expected a spammable which is good enough to make weapon skill spammables useless.

I like how they tried to make Stonefist in a way, that you'll want to have 1 sDK in a trial group. It kinda makes sense to make it ranged then, because some sDK are playing bow/bow or are switching to bow/bow for some fights. I don't understand why they had to cripple sDK damage and sustain though. And don't tell me about Combustion. Just look at your logs how much sustain is actually provided by Combustion. Spoiler: It's not a lot.

Schattenfluegel

I dont think, that a stamDK plays with stonefist in future, so....this shouldnt be worth for questioning. Psijikweapon or Rapids would be more vaible on that class, maybe 2h, too. The claw WAS a good spammable too, but it has been changed a while ago

StamDK Bow/Bow is very vaible too.

vesselwiththepestle

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

I dont think, that a stamDK plays with stonefist in future, so...

Even in trials? Shouldn't it be like 10-15k additional group dps on bosses if you keep up the stacks?

Schattenfluegel

Stone Giant (moprh): This morph no longer grants Minor Resolve after casting, but instead enhances the “Stagger” mechanic where enemies affected take 25 extra damage from any attack, per stack. This effect cannot stack from multiple sources.

If i understand it right...it only works on you, not on other players.

vesselwiththepestle

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Stone Giant (moprh): This morph no longer grants Minor Resolve after casting, but instead enhances the “Stagger” mechanic where enemies affected take 25 extra damage from any attack, per stack. This effect cannot stack from multiple sources.

If i understand it right...it only works on you, not on other players.

No, it just means that only one DK can stack the effect. You don't gain anything from having several DKs spamming Stone Giant. However, every single light attack, dot hit, direct damage skill, procc effect, passive procc etc. which hits the enemy no matter from what player it comes from should be increased by the extra damage from Stone Giant.

BattleAxe

sindalstar wrote: »

I feel sad for anyone who had the idea of being an form of archer/ranged unit in this game.
No class catered to that need until warden and necro came out. And even then it wasn't because they get got an amazing spam able.

You were all melee classes.
You all mostly still are.
-NB has no ranged spamable. Much better in mellee
-Templar has no ranged spamable. Much better in melee
-Sorcerer has no ranged spamable. Encouraged to be a magicka user.
-DK 'now' has one. A currently problematic one according to most. (The problem being the visuals and it's range mostly, not many people -have commented on it's damage though if I'm remembering right its 'just ok' but not the 'fantastic' levels people want out of class abilities)
-Warden 'sorta' has one but I've never seen anyone use it much because of it's speed and it's passives not being fantastic.
-I don't even know what the necro spamable animation looks like. Its not in any of the top builds.

I know I'm not a DK main, and you all are perfectly valid in your opinion but you guys have been so emotionally attached to a stamina whip almost for the reason of 'it's what we want'.

I asked my friend about it (Who is a DK and DD's), purely on a conceptual level how they felt about stone fist. He said it made sense at least, since the passives for the earthen heart ability mix relatively well for spamming (helping hands and mountain) while the ardent flame ones are about making the dots last longer and do more damage. A poison whip could possibly trigger that 'poison status' passive and the poison cost passive i guess...

I dunno. I don't see why it 'can't' be ranged. If you don't want it to be ranged because 'you don't want it to be ranged' then I could just as easily say "Why not? If it works and is brought up to a point where it performs quite well"

Conceptually it misses the intended mark in regards to earthen heart passives helping hands is only making the skills cost = to other spammables so as a sustain tool u get no stam return. Molten armaments is a better solution for earthen heart passives but no one likes to heavy attack so bust. Yeah we get ultimate return for casting stone fist but casting any earthen heart in combat achieves same thing. Sure the skill can be used in melee range but since there is no unique effect for using either ranged or melee it again misses the mark. Dks are a melee based class with a passive adding alittle more range onto melee skills (instead of 5m it’s 7m) also earthen heart isn’t really meant as a dad skill tree as it’s more defense oriented and heal oriented.

Basically if u would classify each dk skill line as a role here is how that would look.

Ardent flame= did
Draconic powers=tank
Earthen heart= healer( very poorly but none the less)

Schattenfluegel

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Stone Giant (moprh): This morph no longer grants Minor Resolve after casting, but instead enhances the “Stagger” mechanic where enemies affected take 25 extra damage from any attack, per stack. This effect cannot stack from multiple sources.

If i understand it right...it only works on you, not on other players.

No, it just means that only one DK can stack the effect. You don't gain anything from having several DKs spamming Stone Giant. However, every single light attack, dot hit, direct damage skill, procc effect, passive procc etc. which hits the enemy no matter from what player it comes from should be increased by the extra damage from Stone Giant.

Then another question: that effect which is caused by stacks...would it work on Raidbosses, which are immune against some statuseffects? I dont believe, that you could add this on Rhakkat...it looks more like a pvp status.

Fur_like_snow

The intended design seems to be geared towards PvE by adding small amounts of damage to every tick of damage. This would be most noticeable in trials.

In PvP the tiny amount of extra damage which is effected by battle spirit makes the skill a poor choice when compared to the new DS which gives off balance 10% increased damage on the target.

vesselwiththepestle

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Then another question: that effect which is caused by stacks...would it work on Raidbosses, which are immune against some statuseffects? I dont believe, that you could add this on Rhakkat...it looks more like a pvp status.

The damate taken debuff is supposed to work on bosses. It's similar to the Trap Beast ability, which doesn't root bosses, but the damage and buff part work.

Banana

The original skill was ranged. So less work required to turn it into the current cow pat. Im assuming