Dizzying Swing change. Better thought through.

llElLoboll

The reason dswing is being used so much is directly tied to how the global cool down allows for a smooth transition into onslaught. While there have been a few "nerf dswing" threads prior to the onslaught buff it was only after that it became such a huge deal. CC breaking and onslaught are the main reasons dswing is so "strong". That does not mean that dswing needs nerfing, it means cc breaking and onslaught need to be adjusted. Also I rarely see damage higher than 5k done to me with an average of 25k resists so the damage isn't that crazy.

P.S. I personally rarely use the skill since the current state of performance makes it difficult to land typically. So I'm not defending my "crutch" skill.

D0PAMINE

Im fine with knockback removal. I'd like the damage to be the same though.

Canned_Apples

It was fine until they reduced the cast time.

It's broken af, now*.

*referring to live

Mr_Walker

ElvenVeil wrote: »

In the current live version 2h had 2 issues I think. 1) onslaught which clearly is superior to any other ultimate in pvp. So much in fact that magicka chars run it. and 2) knockback. Knockback is such a stupid mechanic in this game, where you can't break free properly, or where you die from fall damage or simply get stuck in a wall

Or, as happened to me the other day, it goes wild, and knocks you back a lot further than intended. From the porch of a keep back out the front door in fact.

Trian94

Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

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Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

[...] yet that doesn't change the fact that up to 10k+ dmg from a single, arguably brain-free ability [...]


How high is the tooltip on your Haunting Curse? How high is it on your Frags?

Curse is a ranged, timed, purgable ability that requires a brain to co-ordinate with other skills. To compare it with an incredibly cheap, insane damage brainless spammable that's incredibly easy to spam, anim cancel and has no effective counterplay from magicka players and pretend they are even vaguely similar is more than a little disingenuous.

Frags is one of the easiest skills in the game to avoid. Incredibly slow-moving, it can be easily dodged, blocked (without losing half your stam), cloaked by the time you see it coming, requires a proc for it not to be useless (therefore requiring an ability co-ordinating brain to use) and thus isn't an effective spammable like Pulse and is only accessible to Magsorcs.

Read that again - how much can you say the same for Dizzying swing?

Again, to even remotely compare the 2 skills is disingenuous. One is a brokenly OP spammable that costs next to nothing, does insane dmg, broken knockback cc and is used by almost every 2h user in Cyro, the other is a conditional, procced co-ordinated ability requiring a brain to use effectively.

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Trian94 wrote: »

It only does 5-6k to bad builds though. Curse and fragment are easier to use and they hit equally hard and dont have cast time and are ranged. Should they be nerfed? No because they're not tied to broken mechanics like the ones listed above. If you fix them dizzy with stun and current dmg and cast time will be fine.

sure they are different in nature and they are not spammables but in essence that's what differentiates hard hitting abilities. Melee ability with a cast time leaves you open and that's its nature

Easier to use? Curse needs to be timed with other abilities to even be remotely useful, does the damage of a wet noodle if not combined with other abilities and cannot be spammed every 0.8 seconds nor merged with a broken executioner that kills you before you can even break free. Frags is a proc and requires effective use with other abilities to burst, unlike dizzying swing.

So anyone who dies to your broken, overpowered dizzy execute combo is automatically a bad player? I don't need to elaborate on the quality of this statement because it speaks for itself.

This nerf was badly needed. An ability that costs next to nothing, does a ridiculously overtuned amount of dmg with a free, broken CC knockback, can be anim-cancelled to do over 10k dmg in under a second and requires no proc or intelligent ability combination to overperform is absolutely inexcusable and there is no way it should be allowed to continue as it is.

What counterplay does this ability have?

Roll dodge? you'll run out of stamina before your opponent does.

Block? Ditto.

Break free? By the time the game has processed this you're already dead from a dizzy-executioner combo that required 0 brainpower to use.

There is nothing in this skill currently that even whispers "balance".

The only reason I can think of for someone to defend this evidently overpowered ability is because stam players became used to its ability to 3shot kill - this ability is unjustifiably absurd and this nerf is a sigh of relief for PvP in this game.

I can't tell if you fail to understand or refuse to understand what I've said. Do you know why you can't cc break dizzying swing? Cause knockback is broken. On every skill that has it as an effect like magicka templar spear and flame clench etc. But what you do is point at the ability that this bug makes stand out the most and you say NERF IT. Try to understand that if this problem hadn't existed dizzying swing would be a balanced skill to use. As far as damage is concerned. Yes it should do a lot of damage because it's a melee cast time ability that leaves you open when you use it. If it was up to me the ability would have the original damage it had before the first nerf and be at 1 sec cast time. This and knockbacks working properly would bring it to where it was before anyone complained about it.

Also I never said that whoever dies to my dizzying swing is a bad player and I don't know what you think you read but it's for sure not what I said. I said that my dizzying swing in non cp hits non crit 5-6k only on bad builds and this is true. If you're running 8k physical resistance and not run a resist buff then your build is bad which is the sad truth. Now on decent build dizzy on non crit hits an average of 4k damage non crit. Literally any spammable ability that is instant does the same or more damage than 1 dizzying swing if you weave light attack and/or bash with it and this can be weaved twice in the same amount of time it takes to cast 2 dizzying swings. Literally what makes dizzying worth it is the stun combined with the damage that it does currently.

I don't even want to talk about daedric curse because every magsorc is really biased about it. I'll just say that it's a backloaded burst ability which , through mechanics like light armor penetration and magicka skill scaling, does more damage than dizzying swing and is unblockable and undodgable. Sure it's nature and mechanic is different but it's equally dangerous because you can just use a spammable until it explodes or combo it with a frag and/or meteor followed by streak and an execute and mix up the combination of these abilities. I'm not arguing that it should be nerfed or something. I think that despite all that, it's a good ability and should stay as it is. But since this is a dizzying swing thread this also leads to the fact that instead of nerfing it like that they should fix the mechanics that it's tied to which make it overperform.

Maximus_Mordred

Trian94 wrote: »

I can't tell if you fail to understand or refuse to understand what I've said. Do you know why you can't cc break dizzying swing? Cause knockback is broken. On every skill that has it as an effect like magicka templar spear and flame clench etc. But what you do is point at the ability that this bug makes stand out the most and you say NERF IT. Try to understand that if this problem hadn't existed dizzying swing would be a balanced skill to use. As far as damage is concerned. Yes it should do a lot of damage because it's a melee cast time ability that leaves you open when you use it. If it was up to me the ability would have the original damage it had before the first nerf and be at 1 sec cast time. This and knockbacks working properly would bring it to where it was before anyone complained about it.

Also I never said that whoever dies to my dizzying swing is a bad player and I don't know what you think you read but it's for sure not what I said. I said that my dizzying swing in non cp hits non crit 5-6k only on bad builds and this is true. If you're running 8k physical resistance and not run a resist buff then your build is bad which is the sad truth. Now on decent build dizzy on non crit hits an average of 4k damage non crit. Literally any spammable ability that is instant does the same or more damage than 1 dizzying swing if you weave light attack and/or bash with it and this can be weaved twice in the same amount of time it takes to cast 2 dizzying swings. Literally what makes dizzying worth it is the stun combined with the damage that it does currently.

I don't even want to talk about daedric curse because every magsorc is really biased about it. I'll just say that it's a backloaded burst ability which , through mechanics like light armor penetration and magicka skill scaling, does more damage than dizzying swing and is unblockable and undodgable. Sure it's nature and mechanic is different but it's equally dangerous because you can just use a spammable until it explodes or combo it with a frag and/or meteor followed by streak and an execute and mix up the combination of these abilities. I'm not arguing that it should be nerfed or something. I think that despite all that, it's a good ability and should stay as it is. But since this is a dizzying swing thread this also leads to the fact that instead of nerfing it like that they should fix the mechanics that it's tied to which make it overperform.

Broken or not, it's clearly overtuned in terms of damage, cost and this free CC - having a broken CC just makes it worse to play against gameplay wise. Even if it weren't broken, it's still has easy potential for anyone using it to 3hit kill opponents with a swing-executioner combo - you don't seem to understand how this isn't fair in any way.

You have no idea what their stats are, so this isn't a valid argument when trying to defend an ability that does 3x the damage of its cost non-crit in nocp.

So your definition of a "decent" build is how hard your dizzying swing hits them?

But if this "decent" player has better resists, then the damage of the spammable will also decrease, which you've conveniently left out. I'd like to see my magsorc pulse-LA weave twice in the time it takes someone to dizzying swing me, but I've never seen it happen in under 0.8 seconds.

You still haven't countered the fact that the ability is basically free of charge, the damage is insanity in comparison with its cost, it comes with a CC on top and it has absolutely no effective long-term counterplay for magicka users, as any attempt to block/roll dodge will immediately drain all their stamina = dead, so the only way is to either run or to take your chances with breakfree and hope you don't get executed. There is nothing balanced about this ability and you know it.

DukeDiewalker wrote: »

He is just a troll, don't mind him. Please only discuss the change to dizzying swing, otherwise a community manager has to step in

If you think I'm a troll, please explain why. All I've done is voice my opinions on a forum. Is that so wrong?

waswar292

This is the best news all week, it's about time Dizzying Strikes has been nerfed.

MCBIZZLE300

I agree, they need to keep the stun its so stupid. just make the stunn less ass OR increase the cast time back to 1 second and nerf the damage a little bit. they are the ones that made it OP in the first place by buffing the damage and making onslaught so overpowered.

Trian94

Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

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Trian94 wrote: »

I can't tell if you fail to understand or refuse to understand what I've said. Do you know why you can't cc break dizzying swing? Cause knockback is broken. On every skill that has it as an effect like magicka templar spear and flame clench etc. But what you do is point at the ability that this bug makes stand out the most and you say NERF IT. Try to understand that if this problem hadn't existed dizzying swing would be a balanced skill to use. As far as damage is concerned. Yes it should do a lot of damage because it's a melee cast time ability that leaves you open when you use it. If it was up to me the ability would have the original damage it had before the first nerf and be at 1 sec cast time. This and knockbacks working properly would bring it to where it was before anyone complained about it.

Also I never said that whoever dies to my dizzying swing is a bad player and I don't know what you think you read but it's for sure not what I said. I said that my dizzying swing in non cp hits non crit 5-6k only on bad builds and this is true. If you're running 8k physical resistance and not run a resist buff then your build is bad which is the sad truth. Now on decent build dizzy on non crit hits an average of 4k damage non crit. Literally any spammable ability that is instant does the same or more damage than 1 dizzying swing if you weave light attack and/or bash with it and this can be weaved twice in the same amount of time it takes to cast 2 dizzying swings. Literally what makes dizzying worth it is the stun combined with the damage that it does currently.

I don't even want to talk about daedric curse because every magsorc is really biased about it. I'll just say that it's a backloaded burst ability which , through mechanics like light armor penetration and magicka skill scaling, does more damage than dizzying swing and is unblockable and undodgable. Sure it's nature and mechanic is different but it's equally dangerous because you can just use a spammable until it explodes or combo it with a frag and/or meteor followed by streak and an execute and mix up the combination of these abilities. I'm not arguing that it should be nerfed or something. I think that despite all that, it's a good ability and should stay as it is. But since this is a dizzying swing thread this also leads to the fact that instead of nerfing it like that they should fix the mechanics that it's tied to which make it overperform.

Broken or not, it's clearly overtuned in terms of damage, cost and this free CC - having a broken CC just makes it worse to play against gameplay wise. Even if it weren't broken, it's still has easy potential for anyone using it to 3hit kill opponents with a swing-executioner combo - you don't seem to understand how this isn't fair in any way.

You have no idea what their stats are, so this isn't a valid argument when trying to defend an ability that does 3x the damage of its cost non-crit in nocp.

So your definition of a "decent" build is how hard your dizzying swing hits them?

But if this "decent" player has better resists, then the damage of the spammable will also decrease, which you've conveniently left out. I'd like to see my magsorc pulse-LA weave twice in the time it takes someone to dizzying swing me, but I've never seen it happen in under 0.8 seconds.

You still haven't countered the fact that the ability is basically free of charge, the damage is insanity in comparison with its cost, it comes with a CC on top and it has absolutely no effective long-term counterplay for magicka users, as any attempt to block/roll dodge will immediately drain all their stamina = dead, so the only way is to either run or to take your chances with breakfree and hope you don't get executed. There is nothing balanced about this ability and you know it.

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DukeDiewalker wrote: »

He is just a troll, don't mind him. Please only discuss the change to dizzying swing, otherwise a community manager has to step in

If you think I'm a troll, please explain why. All I've done is voice my opinions on a forum. Is that so wrong?

Dude take some time to actually read what I'm saying. I never left out that the damage decreases on decent builds and what I said about LA skill bash (melee) weaves is that you can do 2 weaves in the same amount that you do 2 dizzying swings with a light attack in between and do the same or more damage and these LA skill bash weaves don't leave you as open since they don't have a cast time. Yet you're complaining that dizzying damage is too much. This is purely about damage.

Also I can tell more or less what resists people are running because I've rested so many builds on many people and knowing my build I can tell these things.

Fact is that even if the broken mechanics that are tied to dizzying swing are fixed people are still going to keep complaining because they are bad. It's fine being bad at a game, it's not their fault that they complain. The fault lies with zenimax because they listen to them instead of figure out what the problem is and fix it instead of nerf abilities like that.

Also the ability is perfectly balanced as far as damage and cost are concerned and the stun idea is fine. And that's a fact. It just needs the knockback effect fixed and potentially the cast time reverted to 1 second.

ElvenVeil

this talk of dizzy doing 10k damage is just misleading, bordering lying. You cannot start nerfing dizzy swing because of how onslaught works, or you might as well nerf every single direct damage ability, since they benefit just as much from this crazy pen.

I guess dizzy swing also has a problem with it's range. On your own screen when using it, everything looks normal, but on enemy screen it can look like you are being hit from miles away. So I guess there is some desynch involved there.

Normal dizzy swing damage is ofc hard to estimate, as it depends on so much, but my experience would say that non crit dizzy swing are around 4k damage. imo it's not a problem that skills deal good damage, in fact that is probably part reason why pvp is fun. frags, curse also deal super damage like others have said, but doesn't mean it should be nerfed. Just mechanics that are clearly broken like knockback and this desynch that seems to be going on with dizzy

Maximus_Mordred

Trian94 wrote: »

Dude take some time to actually read what I'm saying. I never left out that the damage decreases on decent builds and what I said about LA skill bash (melee) weaves is that you can do 2 weaves in the same amount that you do 2 dizzying swings with a light attack in between and do the same or more damage and these LA skill bash weaves don't leave you as open since they don't have a cast time. Yet you're complaining that dizzying damage is too much. This is purely about damage.

Also I can tell more or less what resists people are running because I've rested so many builds on many people and knowing my build I can tell these things.

Fact is that even if the broken mechanics that are tied to dizzying swing are fixed people are still going to keep complaining because they are bad. It's fine being bad at a game, it's not their fault that they complain. The fault lies with zenimax because they listen to them instead of figure out what the problem is and fix it instead of nerf abilities like that.

Also the ability is perfectly balanced as far as damage and cost are concerned and the stun idea is fine. And that's a fact. It just needs the knockback effect fixed and potentially the cast time reverted to 1 second.

Unlikely, even with anim cancelling a pulse-la weave will still take longer than a dizzying swing which is under the GCD. You acknowledged yourself you can do 5-6k dmg noncrit, that's up to 9k dmg crit in a single spammable that can potentially cost under 2k stamina - my pulse and LA combined on crit will not go over 7.5k tops even on weak targets, doesn't have a stun to block any opposing fire, costs much more and can't be cancelled anywhere near as well as dizzy+executioner.

Balanced? You're telling me that a potential of over 20k dmg with a swing-swing-executioner combo that requires almost no skill whatsoever to use (which is another reason almost every 2h user in the game rn is using it) in under 3 seconds AND a cc conveniently stopping any defence in nocp all for just a tiny fraction of your stamina is balanced?

No, it is not and that's a "fact".

The point is, this ability is clearly overtuned. Very high spammable damage, a knockback CC, and insanely low cost. Pick two, but having all three right now is absolutely detrimental to Cyro gameplay and is completely out of hand.

Crixus8000

Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

Unlikely, even with anim cancelling a pulse-la weave will still take longer than a dizzying swing which is under the GCD. You acknowledged yourself you can do 5-6k dmg noncrit, that's up to 9k dmg crit in a single spammable that can potentially cost under 2k stamina - my pulse and LA combined on crit will not go over 7.5k tops even on weak targets, doesn't have a stun to block any opposing fire, costs much more and can't be cancelled anywhere near as well as dizzy+executioner.

On live I have 5.4k weapon damage on my stamsorc and even with amplitude passive and onslaught I still don't reach numberes that high. If I landed a 6k crit even with onslaught up I would be happy. I think I maybe get around 7k sometimes but only against very squishy players lacking impen.

Dizzies issue is the knockback, that's it. It makes for no counterplay. I still don't mind the offbalance change, but the damage loss to dizzy on pts is huge and unfair.

HankTwo

Sorry, Magebinder, but here your argument falls apart a bit:

Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

Curse is a ranged, timed, purgable ability that requires a brain to co-ordinate with other skills. To compare it with an incredibly cheap, insane damage brainless spammable that's incredibly easy to spam, anim cancel and has no effective counterplay from magicka players and pretend they are even vaguely similar is more than a little disingenuous.

Easier to use? Curse needs to be timed with other abilities to even be remotely useful, does the damage of a wet noodle if not combined with other abilities and cannot be spammed every 0.8 seconds nor merged with a broken executioner that kills you before you can even break free. Frags is a proc and requires effective use with other abilities to burst, unlike dizzying swing.

How can it be that dizzying deals 'insane damage' while curse hits like a 'wet noodle'? If you have a mirror build (same stamina as magicka and same weapon damage as spell damage) then on live curse deals 91.6% of the damage of dizzying swing, but two times per cast. Crystal blast, yes the bad morph that no magsorc wants to use, deals 96% of the damage of dizzying while being ranged as well as an AOE. Disadvantage is slightly longer cast time and it is interruptable, but damage and stun wise those skills are almost the same.

Taking away the stun from dizzying doesn't necessarily renders the skill useless, but it definitely destroys a playstyle that was availiable for years. Imo, the damage and stun are fine and almost necessary to align strong ultimate burst combos on certain classes that otherwise lack the tools to do so. However, I do have to agree that the skill is too cheap for what it does. It shouldn't be used to mindlessly spam on targets who are already pushed to the defensive. This is especially problematic when combined with current onslaught against certain classes.

So to make a long story short, I would suggest a cost increase. Around 20 to 25% could be fine, but those are just numbers off the top of my head.

Maximus_Mordred

HankTwo wrote: »

Sorry, Magebinder, but here your argument falls apart a bit:

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Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

Curse is a ranged, timed, purgable ability that requires a brain to co-ordinate with other skills. To compare it with an incredibly cheap, insane damage brainless spammable that's incredibly easy to spam, anim cancel and has no effective counterplay from magicka players and pretend they are even vaguely similar is more than a little disingenuous.

Easier to use? Curse needs to be timed with other abilities to even be remotely useful, does the damage of a wet noodle if not combined with other abilities and cannot be spammed every 0.8 seconds nor merged with a broken executioner that kills you before you can even break free. Frags is a proc and requires effective use with other abilities to burst, unlike dizzying swing.

How can it be that dizzying deals 'insane damage' while curse hits like a 'wet noodle'? If you have a mirror build (same stamina as magicka and same weapon damage as spell damage) then on live curse deals 91.6% of the damage of dizzying swing, but two times per cast. Crystal blast, yes the bad morph that no magsorc wants to use, deals 96% of the damage of dizzying while being ranged as well as an AOE. Disadvantage is slightly longer cast time and it is interruptable, but damage and stun wise those skills are almost the same.

Taking away the stun from dizzying doesn't necessarily renders the skill useless, but it definitely destroys a playstyle that was availiable for years. Imo, the damage and stun are fine and almost necessary to align strong ultimate burst combos on certain classes that otherwise lack the tools to do so. However, I do have to agree that the skill is too cheap for what it does. It shouldn't be used to mindlessly spam on targets who are already pushed to the defensive. This is especially problematic when combined with current onslaught against certain classes.

So to make a long story short, I would suggest a cost increase. Around 20 to 25% could be fine, but those are just numbers off the top of my head.

Because while curse can just about replicate the damage of a single, broken spammable every 6 seconds on average, it requires co-ordination with other abilities for it to be useful - if it's isolated damage then it will just be immediately outhealed and have no effect, hence why it hits like a "wet noodle" unless it can be co-ordinated with other abilities. The same restriction doesn't apply to dizzy as it can just be repeatedly spammed and then execute on low hp, it's just a 2 button hero.

The damage is too high in noCP in comparison with its very low cost. It would be justifiable if the cost were greater or the same cost but lower damage, but having both simultaneously AND a stun AND the 0.8sec cast time which is under the GCD is completely unfair.

Vhozek

Let people break free in mid air so they do a backflip and there you go.
No more dizzying swing problem.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts, we would like to ask that everyone keep on topic and refrain from bashing as well. Derailing and bashing are both violations of the rules that we have in place. If there may be any questions in regards to our rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding!
-Greg-

Goregrinder

So how wrecked are DS + OS + Execute builds in Dragonhold?

Canned_Apples

Goregrinder wrote: »

So how wrecked are DS + OS + Execute builds in Dragonhold?

StaticWave

My current fully buffed build on live has 28k resistance, 20% pen from maul, 5.4k weapon damage, and 34k stam. Against a typical heavy armor stam player with ~27k resist, my average dizzy swing deals ~ 4.4k non crit and 6k crit. I also duel a lot of good magsorcs, and the average crit frag I receive from them is about 7k. That's assuming they have >12k penetration. Let's not over-exaggerate dizzy's damage here. You see, dizzy does great damage, but it usually does less compared to other burst magicka skills . This is because magicka classes usually stack penetration, which gives more overall damage than stacking max stam or max weapon damage. But when you combine a high weapon damage build with maximum penetration, that's when you start seeing recaps with dizzyswings hitting harder than ultimates. Those 10k crit dizzies only happen when you have onslaught or fight a bad build with very low resistance/critical resistance, or both.

As others have said, the skill is totally fine, but the knock-back needs some adjustment. With the nerf to onslaught, I think dizzy would perform well as a high burst skill. However, the PTS version feels lackluster. I had a friend use a build with similar stats for testing purposes, and we compared the damage of PTS dizzyswing with silver shards. Dizzyswing deals about 1.5k more damage, which is not a substantial amount. IMO, they should either keep the stun and reduce the damage, or reduce the stun and keep the damage. Doing both will make it lose its value as a high risk high reward skill.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've closed this thread as the conversation could not remain constructive or civil.