Dizzying Swing change. Better thought through.

DukeDiewalker

I don't know why there is not more people talking about this, but imo the change to dizzying swing with a 16% dmg nerf AND the removal of a hard CC is going to ruin a skill that has just been improved recently. As someone who has been utilizing this skill since game launch more or less, this makes me sad.

Every decent player knows that the current frustration dizzy swing causes to players, is not its damage but the fact that the KNOCKBACK effect is still broken and ZOS doesn't want to admit, they can't fix it, hence they are removing it slowly from the game.
What if I told you there is another way than stripping the skill of its identity? Why is Dizzying Swing not getting the same treatment as the stamina javelin, becoming a sort of knockdown, that is easily breakable but still a hard CC. While the OFFBALANCE is definitly a nice idea, the playstyle of most twohander classes gets slowed down too much with this change but for people who want to use the offbalance mechanic, it would simple to change the other morph, since nobody uses that anyway (WRECKING BLOW) to have the offbalance effect or even the other way around, it does not matter.

Another thought would be, keeping the current change but reverting the damage nerf to keep Dizzying swing in its place as the twohander SPAMMABLE SKILL to retain its usual function for classes like Stamsorc or Stamden, who do not have other options.

Pls no comments on how offbalance is sooo much better, it is not really in NoCP pvp and as I adressed, there is a way to keep both effects.
And if you think the damage of dizzying swing is currently too high, then you should think about what role Onslaught playing in that
Because most dizzying swings without that 100% penetration never hit harder than the average Crystal Frag or Snipe, which even have a range advantage.

Tattooo

Honestly, I´m fine with increasing it´s damage again, just revert it to it´s old cast time... before all the buffs happened.

Hard cc or Off-Balance, you could argue what is better, off-balance opens up some nice combo, burst, sustain.

But ye, obviously the Hard cc is the easier choice, I guess.. I also prefer it tbh, and I´m not a cp player who gains off-balance by just dodging : )

ElvenVeil

The damage nerf to dizzy swing is clearly too much I think. 16% damage nerf (and more actual damage nerf, if you take passive % damage into consideration as well when playing warden or stamsorc.

In the current live version 2h had 2 issues I think. 1) onslaught which clearly is superior to any other ultimate in pvp. So much in fact that magicka chars run it. and 2) knockback. Knockback is such a stupid mechanic in this game, where you can't break free properly, or where you die from fall damage or simply get stuck in a wall

so remove knockback from dizzy (happy about that) but nerfing the damage on top just feels like the standard zos overkill.

Ysbriel

[Quoted post has been removed.]

Once a skill becomes effective or people start using it because it’s effective, it must be nerfed.

Maximus_Mordred

Dizzying swing is an incredibly broken state ATM.

-Costs under 2k stam with med
-Does a ridiculous amount of dmg in comparison with its cost
-Massive knockback arc
-Very easy to spam/anim cancel

Every 2h user and their mother is using this ability right now. Is this really the "class identity" ZOS was promoting? Nowhere else would a dirt-cheap, massive dmg ability with a free CC + incredibly easy gameplay + anim cancelling be acceptable, why is it for Dizzy? And any magicka player that attempts to block the dizzy more than once will lose all their stamina immediately.

No matter how clumsy your opponent is with this skill they will eventually land a hit and by the time you break free they'll already have anim cancel executed you in under a second, even in nocp. How is this balanced in any way? Perhaps give stamina a few more options for spammables, but this is completely out of hand.

CASBrown1996

I feel this change to dizzying is absolutely ridiculous and I honestly cant believe they would do something like this to a skill that is extremely important in most stamina pvp toons that everyone makes, I dont mind a damage nerf, but the removal a CC from that skill ruins its entire purpose, I honestly do wish they would reverse the change

DukeDiewalker

Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

Dizzying swing is an incredibly broken state ATM.

-Costs under 2k stam with med
-Does a ridiculous amount of dmg in comparison with its cost
-Massive knockback arc
-Very easy to spam/anim cancel

No matter how clumsy your opponent is with this skill they will eventually land a hit and by the time you break free they'll already have anim cancel executed you in under a second, even in nocp. How is this balanced in any way? Perhaps give stamina a few more options for spammables, but this is completely out of hand.

That is pretty ironic coming from a Magsorc player.
Just to be clear: Dizzying Swing cannot be animation cancelled, just like every other cast time skill.

chrightt

Not enough people talking about dizzying nerf? Were you living under a rock for the past month?

Simply put it, a lot of tears from stam players since 99% of the stam players in pvp slot 2h atm. Is it OP atm? Certainly. Is the nerf actually justified. Maybe. However, the change to dizzy swing does promote a healthier game in general imo and a more interactive play style rather than dizzy spam -> execute or onslaught. I think I can coin two popular terms here: “git gud” and “l2p”. IMHO nice change really. At least I can consider not slotting all all 2handers for my stam chars’ stam builds.

J2JMC

I think it's valid to suggest that they hold off on nerfing the damage until after we see how the skill works without the knockback and nerfed onslaught.

Trian94

Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

Dizzying swing is an incredibly broken state ATM.

-Costs under 2k stam with med
-Does a ridiculous amount of dmg in comparison with its cost
-Massive knockback arc
-Very easy to spam/anim cancel

Every 2h user and their mother is using this ability right now. Is this really the "class identity" ZOS was promoting? Nowhere else would a dirt-cheap, massive dmg ability with a free CC + incredibly easy gameplay + anim cancelling be acceptable, why is it for Dizzy? And any magicka player that attempts to block the dizzy more than once will lose all their stamina immediately.

No matter how clumsy your opponent is with this skill they will eventually land a hit and by the time you break free they'll already have anim cancel executed you in under a second, even in nocp. How is this balanced in any way? Perhaps give stamina a few more options for spammables, but this is completely out of hand.

My dear Magebinder, you seem to have the same common misconception that most players have. I will break it down for you. Dizzying swing seems to be broken due to other mechanics of the game that do not work properly or are overperforming:

1. Damage over time. It is very strong and complements direct attack abilities greatly regardless of what direct attack
that is. Of course an attack that hits relatively hard and stuns is going to seem broken.
2. Knockback effect. It's currently broken and you can't cc break fast enough in order to go defensive resulting into
dizzying swing being able to land twice in a row and followed up by light attack into an execute.
3. Onslaught. Self explanatory.

So fix these 3 things and dizzying swing is a perfectly fine ability.

P.S: Magsorc main saying that dizzy is easy gameplay, lmao.

Maximus_Mordred

DukeDiewalker wrote: »

That is pretty ironic coming from a Magsorc player.
Just to be clear: Dizzying Swing cannot be animation cancelled, just like every other cast time skill.

I see how it is. Instead of attempting to counter my argument with well-thought out points, you say my argument must be invalid because I main magsorc.

As for the animation cancelling, I'm sure the endless sub --> swing --> execute or swing --> swing --> execute/onslaught combos that occur in barely seconds and deal 5 digit figures in nocp would beg to differ.

TBH it seems that a large amount of stam 2h users have got used to 2-3shot comboing people with this broken ability and don't want to admit that they're not as skilled as they think they are. This ability is completely overtuned and boring to play against and I wouldn't be surprised if it's contributed to the recent decline in PvP population.

Trian94 wrote: »

My dear Magebinder, you seem to have the same common misconception that most players have. I will break it down for you. Dizzying swing seems to be broken due to other mechanics of the game that do not work properly or are overperforming:

1. Damage over time. It is very strong and complements direct attack abilities greatly regardless of what direct attack
that is. Of course an attack that hits relatively hard and stuns is going to seem broken.
2. Knockback effect. It's currently broken and you can't cc break fast enough in order to go defensive resulting into
dizzying swing being able to land twice in a row and followed up by light attack into an execute.
3. Onslaught. Self explanatory.

So fix these 3 things and dizzying swing is a perfectly fine ability.

P.S: Magsorc main saying that dizzy is easy gameplay, lmao.

DOTs are also highly overperforming as well, yet that doesn't change the fact that up to 10k+ dmg from a single, arguably brain-free ability with a free knockback and negligible cost is completely unacceptable no matter what. Maybe when it gets nerfed on live you'll realise my point above seems to resonate well with you.

2. Is correct, this has happened to me personally many times and is incredibly frustrating.

3. Yes, in combination with onslaught this ability is even more OP, yet none of your 3 points have countered any of mine - it's a skill-free ability with minimal cost that does insane dmg with free knockback as well as being incredibly easy to combo with executioner. No wonder almost every 2h user I run into uses this skill.

What purpose does your last comment serve? It doesn't defeat any of my points, it's just an irrelevant side-comment and serves no meaning whatsoever. I wonder if your staunch defence of this obviously broken ability stems from the fact you use it on a regular basis and want to keep 3hitting people with it for eternity, or maybe you're not as skilled as you think you are.

TBois

I just came here to say people do use the wrecking blow morph, and it is the main spammable for most 2h pve dps builds because of empower (the pve boss should be getting off balance from elsewhere so it doesnt need to be on a pve morph spammable). So please don't change this skill.

There are some people also using it in pvp too, me being one of them, with good effect as you can see in the clip below.

https://youtu.be/X4AMdfclbG0

Personally I'm against the 16% damage nerf, and I would have preferred them fix the stun than change the cc to off balance.

Canned_Apples

It's a 6% damage nerf, when you factor in CP.

The problem with the current D-Swing is the short cast time + high damage + bugged CC + easy combo into another dwing high damage ults and finisher

The old version was fine because the longer cast time gave you more time to react, while the current one does not. You can try to block it, but you'll run out of stamina before they do- you can try to dodge roll it, but you'll run out of stamina before they do- you can try to interrupt it, but you'll never close the gap in time.
The only possible counter is to run Immovability Pots and run the same generic, boring (meta) build.

*they need to make the DW spammable viable to offer more variety.

Trian94

Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

DukeDiewalker wrote: »

That is pretty ironic coming from a Magsorc player.
Just to be clear: Dizzying Swing cannot be animation cancelled, just like every other cast time skill.

I see how it is. Instead of attempting to counter my argument with well-thought out points, you say my argument must be invalid because I main magsorc.

As for the animation cancelling, I'm sure the endless sub --> swing --> execute or swing --> swing --> execute/onslaught combos that occur in barely seconds and deal 5 digit figures in nocp would beg to differ.

TBH it seems that a large amount of stam 2h users have got used to 2-3shot comboing people with this broken ability and don't want to admit that they're not as skilled as they think they are. This ability is completely overtuned and boring to play against and I wouldn't be surprised if it's contributed to the recent decline in PvP population.

Trian94 wrote: »

My dear Magebinder, you seem to have the same common misconception that most players have. I will break it down for you. Dizzying swing seems to be broken due to other mechanics of the game that do not work properly or are overperforming:

1. Damage over time. It is very strong and complements direct attack abilities greatly regardless of what direct attack
that is. Of course an attack that hits relatively hard and stuns is going to seem broken.
2. Knockback effect. It's currently broken and you can't cc break fast enough in order to go defensive resulting into
dizzying swing being able to land twice in a row and followed up by light attack into an execute.
3. Onslaught. Self explanatory.

So fix these 3 things and dizzying swing is a perfectly fine ability.

P.S: Magsorc main saying that dizzy is easy gameplay, lmao.

DOTs are also highly overperforming as well, yet that doesn't change the fact that up to 10k+ dmg from a single, arguably brain-free ability with a free knockback and negligible cost is completely unacceptable no matter what. Maybe when it gets nerfed on live you'll realise my point above seems to resonate well with you.

2. Is correct, this has happened to me personally many times and is incredibly frustrating.

3. Yes, in combination with onslaught this ability is even more OP, yet none of your 3 points have countered any of mine - it's a skill-free ability with minimal cost that does insane dmg with free knockback as well as being incredibly easy to combo with executioner. No wonder almost every 2h user I run into uses this skill.

What purpose does your last comment serve? It doesn't defeat any of my points, it's just an irrelevant side-comment and serves no meaning whatsoever. I wonder if your staunch defence of this obviously broken ability stems from the fact you use it on a regular basis and want to keep 3hitting people with it for eternity, or maybe you're not as skilled as you think you are.

If it does 10k+ dmg to you there's something wrong with your build cause on its own it almost never hits above 5-6k non crit on my 4.5k weapon damage build.

Don't let my last comment trigger you. It's just sarcasm because magsorc has been the easiest class since forever.

Bitmun

meanwhile cast times: *still exist*

Maximus_Mordred

Trian94 wrote: »

If it does 10k+ dmg to you there's something wrong with your build cause on its own it almost never hits above 5-6k non crit on my 4.5k weapon damage build.

Don't let my last comment trigger you. It's just sarcasm because magsorc has been the easiest class since forever.

I said up to 10k+ dmg, that's accounting for crit as well

And the fact you admit an ability this hilariously cheap with a free insane knockback CC and incredibly easy to use can do 5-6k in nocp noncrit and be spammed is pretty self explanatory - but as there's yet again nothing in your post attempting to counter my argument, you must agree with me.

This is a dizzying swing thread, let's keep it that way.

DukeDiewalker

DukeDiewalker wrote: »

And if you think the damage of dizzying swing is currently too high, then you should think about what role Onslaught playing in that
Because most dizzying swings without that 100% penetration never hit harder than the average Crystal Frag or Snipe, which even have a range advantage.

Regarding the damage, I'd like point back to my initial post.
The cost of the skill is not the topic here and is fairly reasonable, because one should not make balance attempts based on its cost in medium armor or with cost reduction, but in general.

And as Trian pointed out, those numbers are the MAXIMUM and are heavily bias due to people running around with 8k resistances, the use of onslaught or general penetration + high damage builds.
I would like you to compare those numbers to the average Snipe and Crystal Frag but you are right, keep the thread about dizzying swing.

Chilly-McFreeze

Canned_Apples wrote: »

It's a 6% damage nerf, when you factor in CP.

The problem with the current D-Swing is the short cast time + high damage + bugged CC + easy combo into another dwing high damage ults and finisher

The old version was fine because the longer cast time gave you more time to react, while the current one does not. You can try to block it, but you'll run out of stamina before they do- you can try to dodge roll it, but you'll run out of stamina before they do- you can try to interrupt it, but you'll never close the gap in time.
The only possible counter is to run Immovability Pots and run the same generic, boring (meta) build.

*they need to make the DW spammable viable to offer more variety.

+1
It's mostly the combo with Onslaught, broken CC and the shorter cast time. But it didn't helped they nerfed many other spams in the same patch.
Anyway, it's only 6% in the smaller part of PvP. No CP gains not that much.

Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

[...] yet that doesn't change the fact that up to 10k+ dmg from a single, arguably brain-free ability [...]

How high is the tooltip on your Haunting Curse? How high is it on your Frags?

Trian94

Maximus_Mordred wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

If it does 10k+ dmg to you there's something wrong with your build cause on its own it almost never hits above 5-6k non crit on my 4.5k weapon damage build.

Don't let my last comment trigger you. It's just sarcasm because magsorc has been the easiest class since forever.

I said up to 10k+ dmg, that's accounting for crit as well

And the fact you admit an ability this hilariously cheap with a free insane knockback CC and incredibly easy to use can do 5-6k in nocp noncrit and be spammed is pretty self explanatory - but as there's yet again nothing in your post attempting to counter my argument, you must agree with me.

This is a dizzying swing thread, let's keep it that way.

It only does 5-6k to bad builds though. Curse and fragment are easier to use and they hit equally hard and dont have cast time and are ranged. Should they be nerfed? No because they're not tied to broken mechanics like the ones listed above. If you fix them dizzy with stun and current dmg and cast time will be fine.

sure they are different in nature and they are not spammables but in essence that's what differentiates hard hitting abilities. Melee ability with a cast time leaves you open and that's its nature

ElvenVeil

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

+1
It's mostly the combo with Onslaught, broken CC and the shorter cast time. But it didn't helped they nerfed many other spams in the same patch.
Anyway, it's only 6% in the smaller part of PvP. No CP gains not that much.

I am very confused about this argument.. how does a 16% direct damage nerf to the skills baseline tooltip translate into a 6% with cps ? this is a real question, because I don't see the reasoning behind this

DaNnYtHePcFrEaK

Remove the crutches and CC and watch the skill level drop

khajiitNPC

I’m very happy with the changes. Would I prefer it to stay pre-PTS, of course. But, I’m actually really digging how it works. I feel like using it takes more skill.

Urzigurumash

We were talking about it, but then we remembered how it was terrible almost all of 2017, 2018, and most of 2019, so we got over it.

Anyhow it allays our discontent that we are unable to find a group willing to run vBRP for the Perfected 2h

Chilly-McFreeze

ElvenVeil wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

+1
It's mostly the combo with Onslaught, broken CC and the shorter cast time. But it didn't helped they nerfed many other spams in the same patch.
Anyway, it's only 6% in the smaller part of PvP. No CP gains not that much.

I am very confused about this argument.. how does a 16% direct damage nerf to the skills baseline tooltip translate into a 6% with cps ? this is a real question, because I don't see the reasoning behind this

Dizzy procs off balance in the coming update. Exploiter passive grants 10% increased dmg against targets who are off balance. So this cushiones the nerf a bit. However, you could already proc off balance via tactician CP.

bakermir

As for OP, I partially agree on the damage part. Dizzying Swing do need a damage buff to compete with other skills like Snipe, Frag etc. While a Sorc can streak and spam frags while laughing at you from RANGE, dizzy users have to put a lot of effort in PvP.

Demra

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ElvenVeil wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

+1
It's mostly the combo with Onslaught, broken CC and the shorter cast time. But it didn't helped they nerfed many other spams in the same patch.
Anyway, it's only 6% in the smaller part of PvP. No CP gains not that much.

I am very confused about this argument.. how does a 16% direct damage nerf to the skills baseline tooltip translate into a 6% with cps ? this is a real question, because I don't see the reasoning behind this

Dizzy procs off balance in the coming update. Exploiter passive grants 10% increased dmg against targets who are off balance. So this cushiones the nerf a bit. However, you could already proc off balance via tactician CP.

What about no cp?

Canned_Apples

@

Demra wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ElvenVeil wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

+1
It's mostly the combo with Onslaught, broken CC and the shorter cast time. But it didn't helped they nerfed many other spams in the same patch.
Anyway, it's only 6% in the smaller part of PvP. No CP gains not that much.

I am very confused about this argument.. how does a 16% direct damage nerf to the skills baseline tooltip translate into a 6% with cps ? this is a real question, because I don't see the reasoning behind this

Dizzy procs off balance in the coming update. Exploiter passive grants 10% increased dmg against targets who are off balance. So this cushiones the nerf a bit. However, you could already proc off balance via tactician CP.

What about no cp?

Game isn't balanced around no-cp.

@bakermir lolololol... "a lot of skill" lolololol

Juhasow

Knockback is just a part of the issue. fact that dizzy got 0,8 sec cast time which is less then global cooldown for abilities basically made is as fast to weave as regular instant cast abilities so even if break free from knockback would work perfectly it would still be almost guaranteed to hit next ability right after using dizzying swing.

kpittsniperb14_ESO

DukeDiewalker wrote: »

I don't know why there is not more people talking about this, but imo the change to dizzying swing with a 16% dmg nerf AND the removal of a hard CC is going to ruin a skill that has just been improved recently. As someone who has been utilizing this skill since game launch more or less, this makes me sad.

Every decent player knows that the current frustration dizzy swing causes to players, is not its damage but the fact that the KNOCKBACK effect is still broken and ZOS doesn't want to admit, they can't fix it, hence they are removing it slowly from the game.
What if I told you there is another way than stripping the skill of its identity? Why is Dizzying Swing not getting the same treatment as the stamina javelin, becoming a sort of knockdown, that is easily breakable but still a hard CC. While the OFFBALANCE is definitly a nice idea, the playstyle of most twohander classes gets slowed down too much with this change but for people who want to use the offbalance mechanic, it would simple to change the other morph, since nobody uses that anyway (WRECKING BLOW) to have the offbalance effect or even the other way around, it does not matter.

Another thought would be, keeping the current change but reverting the damage nerf to keep Dizzying swing in its place as the twohander SPAMMABLE SKILL to retain its usual function for classes like Stamsorc or Stamden, who do not have other options.

Pls no comments on how offbalance is sooo much better, it is not really in NoCP pvp and as I adressed, there is a way to keep both effects.
And if you think the damage of dizzying swing is currently too high, then you should think about what role Onslaught playing in that
Because most dizzying swings without that 100% penetration never hit harder than the average Crystal Frag or Snipe, which even have a range advantage.

Agree with everything here even as a magicka player that never uses D swing. It's hard to land and should deliver a punch when you pull it off....easily countered by simply moving through the caster. Fixing break free in general so that it's more responsive is a better call.

Demra

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@

Demra wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ElvenVeil wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

+1
It's mostly the combo with Onslaught, broken CC and the shorter cast time. But it didn't helped they nerfed many other spams in the same patch.
Anyway, it's only 6% in the smaller part of PvP. No CP gains not that much.

I am very confused about this argument.. how does a 16% direct damage nerf to the skills baseline tooltip translate into a 6% with cps ? this is a real question, because I don't see the reasoning behind this

Dizzy procs off balance in the coming update. Exploiter passive grants 10% increased dmg against targets who are off balance. So this cushiones the nerf a bit. However, you could already proc off balance via tactician CP.

What about no cp?

Game isn't balanced around no-cp.

@bakermir lolololol... "a lot of skill" lolololol

Where did you get that info? Why shouldn't it be? Is that fair? Isn't that a bit convenient for some to use? What about bgs?
Is that really your whole argument?

RaveRaveRaveRave

I love complaining about Dizzying Swing (since it shows up in nearly every one of my death recaps) but it was never the damage that was the frustrating part. It was the knock back, stun, range, and constant spamming of it.

I also like to complain about Templars. They are the other thing being abused in this current ESO era. It's sad how many PVPers have to be Plars. Entire groups of them. Then they all say "I've always been/had a Plar"...and I'm like "Yeah, you and the other 99% of PVP right now. Begging the ONE Sorc or Warden in their group of 20 Plars to do their negate or permafrost or whatever.