Town guards not fair ?

Harvall

I mean, i just want to talk about it.

Guards have only one skill bar. It consists of
-Dark Talons (Soft CC)
-Critical Charge or Shield Charge (depending on the weapon) (Gap Closer and CC)
-Fiery Grip (Pull Back)
-Uppercut or unavailable for players "spin-charge-shield-bash" (of one handed and shield) (Damage focused attack and CC)
-Silver Bolts (crossbow) (Ranged Attack)

Besides the fact that they are all Dragonknights, which is kinda boring, and the fact that they are immortal (which i get, understand and support) what i want to state from the topic is the fact that
-Their Dark Talons can CC you from distance similar to Ebonheart - Vivec City
-The can critical charge you from Akavir, and manage to turn and avoid abstacles while *** so.
- Chain seem to have no end because they could pull you down from the top of High Hrothgar
- Uppercut/shield attack seems fair (didn't expect that now didn't ya ?)
- Silver bolts would also seem fair if not for one little fact

If you screw around with a guard for some time. He attacks you, chases you, comes back if you loose him, attacks you again after a while, because he spotted you again or something. Basicaly if you make his life difficult for too long, he will fire a Thermonuclear bomb bolt at you which insta kills you. No matter your health, resitances etc. (I haven't tried blocking yet, because its kinda difficult to predict when Enola Gay will drop)

All that doesn't feel kinda right, am i right ?

And i know what some of you my friends will say, if they didn't have those op skills you could run from them in seconds. Yes, That's the point here, but not all of it. How about making their skill have the same ranges as ours, and (bear with me here) give them ability to SPRINT. As far as i remember most of the guards have LEGS, you, sprint, they sprint, you have skills, they have the same skills ? wouldn't that make it more balanced and entertaining ? I hope you agree

Also making Sorcerer Guards, and Templar guards would be so much fun, While Dragonguards are more of a CC type

With Sorcs having some skills like,
- Encase (Soft CC)
- Bolt Escape (Gap Closer)
- Mage Light (Stealth Detection)
- Daedric Curse - (Damage focused Attack)
- Crystal Shard (Ranged Attack)
To make them more of a utility Guard

And Templars maybe some of
- Trap Beast (CC)
- Focused Charge (Gap Closer)
- Puncturing Strikes (Damage focused Attack)
- Piercing Javelin (Ranged Attack)
- Sun Fire (Ranged Attack)
To make them more Offensive type Guard.

What do you make of that folks ?

VaranisArano

The guards are designed for CC because the idea is that players will be trying to escape as seen in the achievement for successfully running away, instead of being able to kill them like in the Single Player TES games. Also, different guards in Hew's Bane already have a Stealth Suppression effect.

Its a lot easier to design guards to CC than it is to design guards to sprint and attack. That's especially true when you take speed sets and swift trait jewelry into account.

Personally, I'd love it if ZOS added the stealth suppression effect to more guards, but I think the CC focused guards are fine. We're supposed to escape, not stand and fight, so the CC focused guards encourage criminals to run rather than hang around.

idk

Your discussion starts to make no sense when say you understand and support that they are immortal but have problems with the skills they have available.

My first question is why did you get caught. My second is why were you not able to get away. I have not had to pay a fine in ages.

Look at it this way. The "challenge" pushes players to either get better or stop their thieving ways.

Harvall

Look guys, my main point was to WHY their skills have so much range, i don't get how this excludes me supporting their immortality. I don't have a problem escaping them, and i don't get caught for other reasons than my own self forgetting i have a bounty

As to the achievement, i thought about that thas why every one of them has a CC ability

i don't know why everyone assumes i am salty and can't escape guards or something, i just wanna make them more fun and less boring. But mainly more fair, by reducing their skill range to ours

idk

1. Most complain because they are immortal.
2. Pretty sure the idea is they are intended to be challenging to get away from to push the idea to use our skills to avoid having to deal with them in the first place.

VaranisArano

Harvall wrote: »

Look guys, my main point was to WHY their skills have so much range, i don't get how this excludes me supporting their immortality. I don't have a problem escaping them, and i don't get caught for other reasons than my own self forgetting i have a bounty

As to the achievement, i thought about that thas why every one of them has a CC ability

i don't know why everyone assumes i am salty and can't escape guards or something, i just wanna make them more fun and less boring. But mainly more fair, by reducing their skill range to ours

I imagine one reason they have incredible range is because players have access to Sprint, speed gear, CP, and swift trait jewelry to hit the speed cap. In contrast, its harder to code that for NPCs and its even harder to balance NPC speed vs player speed. For it to be balanced for new and experienced thieves alike, ZOS would have to match the guard speed to that of the player they were chasing.

That might be more engaging for experienced players, but its a lot more work that simply setting a large range for guard CCs so players have to work a bit but can usually escape if they try.

Personally, I don't view it as unfair because that seems to imply that the NPC guards are supposed to be fair in the first place. They aren't, not like in the singleplayer TES games. ESO's guards are unkillable CC machines who can be escaped but not killed because they have to keep the peace in a world crawling with players who will inevitably try to kill everything that has HP.

Harvall

Sigh... iits kinda tiresome to explain something few times but I WANT them to be challenging, i WANT them to be fun, i GET that we are meant to excape not fight. i never stated otherwise, why responses appear as me stating otherwise eludes me. Other classes was just my suggestion here, and i simply wanted to know community tought on it. I get your stated points here, but the insta kill bolt is not fair for sure here.

Araneae6537

I’m mostly fine with the guards as they are, but I do wish they would simply apprehend you if you stand there and neither attack nor run away. Mostly a non issue, but once I healed a group member who had aggroed a guard while trying to blast a dragon flying overhead (I thought they’d jumped down from somewhere or anything less foolish!).

rpa

Way to deal with guards is to run away and it's pretty easy. If you want any challenge, aggro a guard indoors, then successfully run away.

bearbelly

If you just want the guards to be more diverse in their skillset, then you shouldn't have opened with the question of fairness.

They are already immortal which makes fairness a moot point. Y'ain't never gonna kill 'em, so standing toe-to-toe with them at all is simply unwise; their being capable of one-shotting you is really kinda irrelevant.

Get the frak outta Dodge as fast as you can, and you won't get one-shot.

I don't see our tactics changing even if they were to diversify the guard classes. They're still going to attempt to CC you and one-shot you if you don't do everything you can to escape their clutches, regardless of the specific methods they use.
'Fair' ain't never gonna be part of the equation.

SirAndy

Harvall wrote: »

Town guards not fair ?

What makes you think they have to be "fair" ???

Jhalin

They’re not really that hard to avoid, bring an invis pot if you want to go on a crime spree. Without the revealing flare they used to cast, there’s no threat from them when you pop the pot

D0PAMINE

The only way they kill me if if I start hitting them with meteors and they havn't had time to reset.

bmnoble

Would really laugh if they ever made it so guards could swim no more hiding in the water.

WeerW3ir

Harvall wrote: »

I mean, i just want to talk about it.

Guards have only one skill bar. It consists of
-Dark Talons (Soft CC)
-Critical Charge or Shield Charge (depending on the weapon) (Gap Closer and CC)
-Fiery Grip (Pull Back)
-Uppercut or unavailable for players "spin-charge-shield-bash" (of one handed and shield) (Damage focused attack and CC)
-Silver Bolts (crossbow) (Ranged Attack)

Besides the fact that they are all Dragonknights, which is kinda boring, and the fact that they are immortal (which i get, understand and support) what i want to state from the topic is the fact that
-Their Dark Talons can CC you from distance similar to Ebonheart - Vivec City
-The can critical charge you from Akavir, and manage to turn and avoid abstacles while *** so.
- Chain seem to have no end because they could pull you down from the top of High Hrothgar
- Uppercut/shield attack seems fair (didn't expect that now didn't ya ?)
- Silver bolts would also seem fair if not for one little fact

If you screw around with a guard for some time. He attacks you, chases you, comes back if you loose him, attacks you again after a while, because he spotted you again or something. Basicaly if you make his life difficult for too long, he will fire a Thermonuclear bomb bolt at you which insta kills you. No matter your health, resitances etc. (I haven't tried blocking yet, because its kinda difficult to predict when Enola Gay will drop)

All that doesn't feel kinda right, am i right ?

And i know what some of you my friends will say, if they didn't have those op skills you could run from them in seconds. Yes, That's the point here, but not all of it. How about making their skill have the same ranges as ours, and (bear with me here) give them ability to SPRINT. As far as i remember most of the guards have LEGS, you, sprint, they sprint, you have skills, they have the same skills ? wouldn't that make it more balanced and entertaining ? I hope you agree

Also making Sorcerer Guards, and Templar guards would be so much fun, While Dragonguards are more of a CC type

With Sorcs having some skills like,
- Encase (Soft CC)
- Bolt Escape (Gap Closer)
- Mage Light (Stealth Detection)
- Daedric Curse - (Damage focused Attack)
- Crystal Shard (Ranged Attack)
To make them more of a utility Guard

And Templars maybe some of
- Trap Beast (CC)
- Focused Charge (Gap Closer)
- Puncturing Strikes (Damage focused Attack)
- Piercing Javelin (Ranged Attack)
- Sun Fire (Ranged Attack)
To make them more Offensive type Guard.

What do you make of that folks ?

I approve this idea. They are all the same. Only DK. And only dlc have different kind of guards. Im sure story wisely only dk-s are aient that appailing

Ackwalan

The guards are there to put a risk for stealing. They are not there for a challenge. ZOS doesn't want (nor do most players) people raiding inside city limits, just to see how long the can survive against a guard.

Jeremy

Harvall wrote: »

Look guys, my main point was to WHY their skills have so much range, i don't get how this excludes me supporting their immortality. I don't have a problem escaping them, and i don't get caught for other reasons than my own self forgetting i have a bounty

As to the achievement, i thought about that thas why every one of them has a CC ability

i don't know why everyone assumes i am salty and can't escape guards or something, i just wanna make them more fun and less boring. But mainly more fair, by reducing their skill range to ours

That's because every suggestion made on these forums stems from an inability to play the game. So stop getting killed by the guards and L2P!

I'm just kidding.

Your idea to mix the guards up for more variety actually sounds pretty reasonable. I never noticed they were all Dragon Knights. I also never noticed they had superior range. I usually just mist form away so I rarely get to see what kind of abilities they use.

But I have a hard time understanding what the purpose would be to mix them up so as to make them more "fun to fight". I mean if you have to run away from them anyway (since if you don't they'll eventually just one shot you with their "thermonuclear bomb" as you pointed out) you're not going to be fighting them regardless . So it's basically going to be the same kind of fight no matter what class they are - you running away from them until they stop pursuing. And so long as they are immortal (which you say you support) it's not like the fight is ever going to be fair anyway.

So I suppose giving them a wider assortment of classes might help aesthetically and I don't really see a problem with doing that. But I doubt it's going to change the interaction very much or make fighting them any more fun.

UnseenCat

It would be fun if the guards had more variety in classes/skills. Evading them is part of the fun of sneak thieving. Having a wider variety of guard attacks to fend off on those odd times they alert would freshen it up a bit. Good idea!

Also, as a Khajiit Nightblade with fully leveled stealth, I can alert a guard, have him run right up to me, and then crouch to hide and repeatedly cloak until he shrugs and walks away. While I'm right there in front of his face. I mean, I could hug him if I wanted to. It's hilarious. And probably not intended. So a little more challenge could definitely spice things up.

But as far as game mechanics go, it's probably a lot harder than we think to add new and novel behaviors to the guards.

Jeremy

UnseenCat wrote: »

It would be fun if the guards had more variety in classes/skills. Evading them is part of the fun of sneak thieving. Having a wider variety of guard attacks to fend off on those odd times they alert would freshen it up a bit. Good idea!

Also, as a Khajiit Nightblade with fully leveled stealth, I can alert a guard, have him run right up to me, and then crouch to hide and repeatedly cloak until he shrugs and walks away. While I'm right there in front of his face. I mean, I could hug him if I wanted to. It's hilarious. And probably not intended. So a little more challenge could definitely spice things up.

But as far as game mechanics go, it's probably a lot harder than we think to add new and novel behaviors to the guards.

But would it really make the fight that much more fun just because it was a different graphic instead of talons CCing you while you tried to run away or cloak?

It seems to me the basic method of the fight is going to be the same regardless of the graphics used so long as they remain immortal and can one shot players. They are more like obstacles to avoid or escape from whether than actual fights.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

so...simply put...dont become a criminal if you will get killed at your 1st act. some people can be outlaws...some people are slaves...that's the way of things...accept it!

IndianaJames7

Guards must be running CE. No one has that much resist and damage at the same time. Total BS, I have reported many times but ZOS has taken no action.

kargen27

Harvall wrote: »

Look guys, my main point was to WHY their skills have so much range, i don't get how this excludes me supporting their immortality. I don't have a problem escaping them, and i don't get caught for other reasons than my own self forgetting i have a bounty

As to the achievement, i thought about that thas why every one of them has a CC ability

i don't know why everyone assumes i am salty and can't escape guards or something, i just wanna make them more fun and less boring. But mainly more fair, by reducing their skill range to ours

I don't mind the long distance stuns. Without it they would be be nothing to get away from. Run up stairs then jump down and you are free. Cross a bit of water and you are free. They are suppose to be annoying if you get caught but not difficult to get away from most the time. I wouldn't object to more or different skills being used but really do not see the point. I'm still going to be free and clear in just a few seconds because I have an escape route planned in advance.

ArchMikem

I skimmed the thread so if no one mentioned yet, the oneshot is a skill i think is literally called Crowd Control. If you remain in combat with a guard long enough, they fire off that skill to end you. There are videos where dozens of players attempted to fight the guards in Vulkhel Guard, and eventually all of them got the one shot at the same time.

Its not unfair, you're just not meant to fight Guards in this game. If they made Guards vulnerable, then player hubs would be Anarchy.

starkerealm

Guards can't swim.

Dominion_Nightblade

Guards should be hard to kill, but they should be killable. With a respawn timer like any other npcs. What makes crime dull to me is that fact that I cant kill them. Guards should not be gods. #KillAllGuards

starkerealm

Dominion_Nightblade wrote: »

Guards should be hard to kill, but they should be killable. With a respawn timer like any other npcs. What makes crime dull to me is that fact that I cant kill them. Guards should not be gods. #KillAllGuards

If you could kill them, players would just smear them and go on a rampage. I understand the goal of, "it should be possible but difficult," then remember there are players in the game who view vet DLC dungeons as popcorn, and others who thing clearing them on normal is nearly impossible.

The skill range in this game is insane.

It's also not helped because in the original plan, Guard immortality was a stop gap before the second phase of the system came in. That, never actually got added to the game.

Originally, players were supposed to be able to flag themselves as "Enforcers." Enforcers would be PvP flagged, and could hunt and kill players with bounties. So, the entire Justice system was originally designed to be a PvP experience, where enforcers would hunt lawbreakers, take their contraband and turn that in for rewards. While lawbreakers could hunt and kill Enforcers to take back whatever they'd confiscated.

As far as I know, this was scrapped around 2015/2016. I don't what the problems were, but this was supposed to be open world PvP, and the guards being immortal was just temporary until Enforcers were added. Of course, Enforcers were never added and here we are.

Taleof2Cities

Dominion_Nightblade wrote: »

Guards should be hard to kill, but they should be killable. With a respawn timer like any other npcs. What makes crime dull to me is that fact that I cant kill them. Guards should not be gods. #KillAllGuards

Nope.

Once guards are killable, that’s a license for players to get away with anything they want.

No Justice System would be gamebreaking.

Dominion_Nightblade

starkerealm wrote: »

Dominion_Nightblade wrote: »

Guards should be hard to kill, but they should be killable. With a respawn timer like any other npcs. What makes crime dull to me is that fact that I cant kill them. Guards should not be gods. #KillAllGuards

If you could kill them, players would just smear them and go on a rampage. I understand the goal of, "it should be possible but difficult," then remember there are players in the game who view vet DLC dungeons as popcorn, and others who thing clearing them on normal is nearly impossible.

The skill range in this game is insane.

It's also not helped because in the original plan, Guard immortality was a stop gap before the second phase of the system came in. That, never actually got added to the game.

Originally, players were supposed to be able to flag themselves as "Enforcers." Enforcers would be PvP flagged, and could hunt and kill players with bounties. So, the entire Justice system was originally designed to be a PvP experience, where enforcers would hunt lawbreakers, take their contraband and turn that in for rewards. While lawbreakers could hunt and kill Enforcers to take back whatever they'd confiscated.

As far as I know, this was scrapped around 2015/2016. I don't what the problems were, but this was supposed to be open world PvP, and the guards being immortal was just temporary until Enforcers were added. Of course, Enforcers were never added and here we are.

I remember hearing about that and thinking how cool it was going to be. Too bad they scrapped it.

starkerealm

Dominion_Nightblade wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Dominion_Nightblade wrote: »

Guards should be hard to kill, but they should be killable. With a respawn timer like any other npcs. What makes crime dull to me is that fact that I cant kill them. Guards should not be gods. #KillAllGuards

If you could kill them, players would just smear them and go on a rampage. I understand the goal of, "it should be possible but difficult," then remember there are players in the game who view vet DLC dungeons as popcorn, and others who thing clearing them on normal is nearly impossible.

The skill range in this game is insane.

It's also not helped because in the original plan, Guard immortality was a stop gap before the second phase of the system came in. That, never actually got added to the game.

Originally, players were supposed to be able to flag themselves as "Enforcers." Enforcers would be PvP flagged, and could hunt and kill players with bounties. So, the entire Justice system was originally designed to be a PvP experience, where enforcers would hunt lawbreakers, take their contraband and turn that in for rewards. While lawbreakers could hunt and kill Enforcers to take back whatever they'd confiscated.

As far as I know, this was scrapped around 2015/2016. I don't what the problems were, but this was supposed to be open world PvP, and the guards being immortal was just temporary until Enforcers were added. Of course, Enforcers were never added and here we are.

I remember hearing about that and thinking how cool it was going to be. Too bad they scrapped it.

Don't give up the dream. If we keep reminding them that this was the plan, maybe we can still get it to happen.

Dominion_Nightblade

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Dominion_Nightblade wrote: »

Guards should be hard to kill, but they should be killable. With a respawn timer like any other npcs. What makes crime dull to me is that fact that I cant kill them. Guards should not be gods. #KillAllGuards

Nope.

Once guards are killable, that’s a license for players to get away with anything they want.

No Justice System would be gamebreaking.

Lol with how ridiculously easy it is to escape from guards, you can get away with anything already. Might as well have fun killing them.

darthgummibear_ESO

The only thing I've ever had a problem with is the one-shot bolt, which I've only had happen a few times the entire time playing this game and I'm currently over 2M bounty.

I actually wish they would do more with the justice system other than you simply having to avoid guards, like bounty hunters coming after you or something.