Where do we draw the line?

MasterSpatula

idk wrote: »

Stop buying the crates. Those buying the crates are feeding the problem. Buying crates then coming to the forums and complaining about it seems rather pointless.

Exactly this. Complain all you want, but you've already given them the only feedback that matters; you rewarded them financially. The only reasonable response to Crown Crates it to punish, not reward. Stop buying them, and ZOS will start offering the best items for set prices like ethical businesspeople do.

SirAndy

MotokoHutt wrote: »

Where do we draw the line?

Right above the denominator ...

Araneae6537

MasterSpatula wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Stop buying the crates. Those buying the crates are feeding the problem. Buying crates then coming to the forums and complaining about it seems rather pointless.

Exactly this. Complain all you want, but you've already given them the only feedback that matters; you rewarded them financially. The only reasonable response to Crown Crates it to punish, not reward. Stop buying them, and ZOS will start offering the best items for set prices like ethical businesspeople do.

I think most (all?) of us voicing disapproval don’t buy them. I haven’t bought a one and am not going to.

Edit: And I have bought other things so ZOS knows many of us can and will purchase directly things we like when we feel it’s worth it.

zyk

I drew the line when Crates were introduced because it's an obviously exploitative mechanic. It's not even debatable. It's social science. They are virtual scratch cards.

Had everyone done so, Crates wouldn't have taken hold and we'd have a better Crown store without RNG so customers can buy exactly what they want and nothing more.

The same goes for qol via Crowns like Shards. The people buying Shards are virtually guaranteeing more paid qol in the future.

Players need to push back on monetization because it's going to keep getting worse until we do.

VaranisArano

ErinM31 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

MotokoHutt wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.

I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.

You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.

If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.

Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.

I agree 100%. I will never call loot boxes “predatory” or anything else that implies I have no choice or will of my own. I do think some practices are in poor taste but no, it is hyperbolic to call things like loot boxes “criminal.”

I still leave my feedback, for whatever it may be worth, as well as voting with my wallet.

Thats like saying an Owl isnt predatory just cus the field mouse got a way. Regardless whether or not you boughtthe crown crates there still predatory, YOU dont get to pick if something preys on people or not, you just chose to get away from the predator if you can. I sware its comments like these that make me loose faith in the human race.

Wow. Okay, so there are people who are actually preyed on, deceived and worse. They don’t get a choice in the matter. Calling innocuous things like selling some silly thing in a game predatory diminishes people who have actually been preyed upon as well as people generally, implying we have no ability to control impulses and decide what is and isn’t worth our money.

It is comments like yours that make me lose faith in the human race.

It seems to me quite a privilege to live in a time and place that selling RNG virtual cosmetics can be considered predatory.

We're on a video game forum discussing methods of buying cosmetics. I think most of us understand that we're discussing1st World Problems, yeah?

So let's clarify what's meant by predatory.

When discussing Crown Crates and other Loot Boxes, the "predatory" part comes from the usage of the same tactics as gambling, namely, the way crown crates and other "gamble for what you want" mechanics play on and encourage the same addictive tendencies and human weaknesse that get people into trouble with actual gambling, which is one reason why most soceities have deemed it important to highly regulate actual gambling.

It's one of the reasons why its a big deal that Crown Crates and most other loot boxes aren't technically gambling under legal definitions. They don't fall under gambling regulations even though they use many of the same techniques. Legally, Crown Crates aren't treated as "predatory" in the same way that gambling is, even though they play on the same addictive behaviors and use many of the same techniques as actual gambling. For example, unlike my state lottery, ESO doesn't have to publish their official Crown Crate odds, so we have to rely on player-generated data instead.

That's also why there are a number of pushes to update those gambling laws to regulate loot boxes as well, or to push gaming companies to self-regulate before various legislatures do it for them. Its because loot boxes use many of the same techniques as gambling to fuel addictive tendencies, but are much less regulated, and consumers and lawmakers don't necessarily approve of companies using those techniques without regulation and oversight - especially not when some of those companies (not ESO) are marketing loot boxes to kids. (Gotta love the "think of the children" argument!)

Now, if you don't regard gambling as "predatory" because its completely optional, well, you probably won't agree that Crown Crates are "predatory" either. But hey, at least you know why they are called predatory, and why lots of people would like loot boxes to face greater regulations similar to actual gambling.

I appreciate your rational reply. I felt your first post went too far in equating enticements or however we should call them with actual predation. But I detracted from my own argument by implying there are not worse problems even in the “first world.”

In any case, I do understand the psychology of it and believe that some companies do employ distasteful practices, but IMHO the law should only step in when deceit is employed. People have different psychological and physiological weaknesses, certainly. I have my own and do not judge anyone for theirs. But is it not better if we decide where to draw boundaries for ourselves and teach our children to do likewise? If I had stolen from my parents growing up not being allowed to play a video game further would have been only the beginning of the consequences I can assure you! What is the other option? Should governments, run by people no less fallible and corruptible than any who run corporations, I might add, draw the lines for us? How intrusive should they be? Is it not also human weakness to tend to eat too much, to like sweet things, to not exercise as we should, etc., etc.? Obesity and increasing diabetes are real problems, no? We could have a monitor a la 1984, making sure we do our daily exercise. I do not intend to be hyperbolic, but asking in turn where would you draw the line?

First off, I suspect you mixed me up with someone earlier in that conversation thread. That's fine - I only popped in to explain the predatory/gambling connection since I didnt think anyone had properly explained that argument yet.

Personally, I already stated my line in the sand. I'm not spending money on RNG crates. Ever.

On the other hand, this "but people have to be responsible or we're headed towards dystopia" handwringing is seriously missing the point.

RNG Crates suck. Unregulated RNG crates really suck.

You want players to show some responsibility?
Okay. Now, how about asking the Gaming Companies (in general, because this is a bigger issue than ESO) to self-regulate? To be transparent about the terrible odds on their loot crates? To refrain from giving rigged crates to their influencers? To not put Pay-To-Win stuff in loot crates? To not market their "it's-basically-gambling" loot crates to children?

Responsibility. Its not just for players. Its for game companies too.

If game companies weren't showing themselves to be completely scummy in their implementation of loot crates, there wouldn't be a large push to regulate them through laws. Game companies have a choice - take responsibility and regulate yourselves, or eventually governments are going to do it for the whole industry.

Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are smart enough to see the writing on the wall, smart enough to start self-regulating because of the PR pressure. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/296293-sony-microsoft-and-nintendo-will-require-loot-box-drop-rate-disclosures

So frankly, I find the argument of "personal responsibility" to be lacking. Sure, players should take responsibility. So should gaming companies! History is filled with examples of corporations who happily ducked their responsibility until people stood up and made them behave ethically. I'd rather that gaming companies self-regulated, but if they don't self-regulate and clean up their act, I won't weep for them when legislatures start doing it for them.

I agree with most of that, certainly! Customers should have accurate information at least. And I wish that the negative response to these latest exorbitant Gem-exclusives would motivate ZOS to better practices, but I guess it makes them enough money? Does whatever percentage buy enough that it’s worth it to ZOS to cut out those of us who don’t buy RNG crates? That is boggling... and unfortunate.

And my apologies for confusing you with a previous poster! I should have thought to check instead of wondering that the person I had originally replied to had replied with a much more rational reply!

Like I said, its totally fine!

And yeah, a lot of this mess does come down to game companies leaning very hard into monetization strategies that emphasize reliance on a relative few "whales" instead of relying on selling the majority of their playerbase what they want for decent prices. Its boggling, unfortunate, and makes game companies enough profit that they'll keep doing it. It just sucks for the average consumer, even when we don't get into the whole moral issue of gambling or unethical rigging of crates.

I suspect loot crates are here to stay as a profit-making mechanism, unfortunately. As a whole, consumers just aren't going to agree on a single line in the sand and people will continue to buy loot boxes for enticing items they want. So I'll settle for regulating loot boxes and better transparency, whether game companies do it or governments make them.

ESO, at least, is less scummy than many loot crate games (TBH, I'm not sure whether that's damning with faint praise). Crown Crates arent Pay to Win or marketed to children. It'll be a step in the right direction when they have to release the odds for Crown Crates thanks to the console providers bowing to pressure to be more transparent.

Araneae6537

VaranisArano wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

MotokoHutt wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.

I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.

You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.

If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.

Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.

I agree 100%. I will never call loot boxes “predatory” or anything else that implies I have no choice or will of my own. I do think some practices are in poor taste but no, it is hyperbolic to call things like loot boxes “criminal.”

I still leave my feedback, for whatever it may be worth, as well as voting with my wallet.

Thats like saying an Owl isnt predatory just cus the field mouse got a way. Regardless whether or not you boughtthe crown crates there still predatory, YOU dont get to pick if something preys on people or not, you just chose to get away from the predator if you can. I sware its comments like these that make me loose faith in the human race.

Wow. Okay, so there are people who are actually preyed on, deceived and worse. They don’t get a choice in the matter. Calling innocuous things like selling some silly thing in a game predatory diminishes people who have actually been preyed upon as well as people generally, implying we have no ability to control impulses and decide what is and isn’t worth our money.

It is comments like yours that make me lose faith in the human race.

It seems to me quite a privilege to live in a time and place that selling RNG virtual cosmetics can be considered predatory.

We're on a video game forum discussing methods of buying cosmetics. I think most of us understand that we're discussing1st World Problems, yeah?

So let's clarify what's meant by predatory.

When discussing Crown Crates and other Loot Boxes, the "predatory" part comes from the usage of the same tactics as gambling, namely, the way crown crates and other "gamble for what you want" mechanics play on and encourage the same addictive tendencies and human weaknesse that get people into trouble with actual gambling, which is one reason why most soceities have deemed it important to highly regulate actual gambling.

It's one of the reasons why its a big deal that Crown Crates and most other loot boxes aren't technically gambling under legal definitions. They don't fall under gambling regulations even though they use many of the same techniques. Legally, Crown Crates aren't treated as "predatory" in the same way that gambling is, even though they play on the same addictive behaviors and use many of the same techniques as actual gambling. For example, unlike my state lottery, ESO doesn't have to publish their official Crown Crate odds, so we have to rely on player-generated data instead.

That's also why there are a number of pushes to update those gambling laws to regulate loot boxes as well, or to push gaming companies to self-regulate before various legislatures do it for them. Its because loot boxes use many of the same techniques as gambling to fuel addictive tendencies, but are much less regulated, and consumers and lawmakers don't necessarily approve of companies using those techniques without regulation and oversight - especially not when some of those companies (not ESO) are marketing loot boxes to kids. (Gotta love the "think of the children" argument!)

Now, if you don't regard gambling as "predatory" because its completely optional, well, you probably won't agree that Crown Crates are "predatory" either. But hey, at least you know why they are called predatory, and why lots of people would like loot boxes to face greater regulations similar to actual gambling.

I appreciate your rational reply. I felt your first post went too far in equating enticements or however we should call them with actual predation. But I detracted from my own argument by implying there are not worse problems even in the “first world.”

In any case, I do understand the psychology of it and believe that some companies do employ distasteful practices, but IMHO the law should only step in when deceit is employed. People have different psychological and physiological weaknesses, certainly. I have my own and do not judge anyone for theirs. But is it not better if we decide where to draw boundaries for ourselves and teach our children to do likewise? If I had stolen from my parents growing up not being allowed to play a video game further would have been only the beginning of the consequences I can assure you! What is the other option? Should governments, run by people no less fallible and corruptible than any who run corporations, I might add, draw the lines for us? How intrusive should they be? Is it not also human weakness to tend to eat too much, to like sweet things, to not exercise as we should, etc., etc.? Obesity and increasing diabetes are real problems, no? We could have a monitor a la 1984, making sure we do our daily exercise. I do not intend to be hyperbolic, but asking in turn where would you draw the line?

First off, I suspect you mixed me up with someone earlier in that conversation thread. That's fine - I only popped in to explain the predatory/gambling connection since I didnt think anyone had properly explained that argument yet.

Personally, I already stated my line in the sand. I'm not spending money on RNG crates. Ever.

On the other hand, this "but people have to be responsible or we're headed towards dystopia" handwringing is seriously missing the point.

RNG Crates suck. Unregulated RNG crates really suck.

You want players to show some responsibility?
Okay. Now, how about asking the Gaming Companies (in general, because this is a bigger issue than ESO) to self-regulate? To be transparent about the terrible odds on their loot crates? To refrain from giving rigged crates to their influencers? To not put Pay-To-Win stuff in loot crates? To not market their "it's-basically-gambling" loot crates to children?

Responsibility. Its not just for players. Its for game companies too.

If game companies weren't showing themselves to be completely scummy in their implementation of loot crates, there wouldn't be a large push to regulate them through laws. Game companies have a choice - take responsibility and regulate yourselves, or eventually governments are going to do it for the whole industry.

Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are smart enough to see the writing on the wall, smart enough to start self-regulating because of the PR pressure. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/296293-sony-microsoft-and-nintendo-will-require-loot-box-drop-rate-disclosures

So frankly, I find the argument of "personal responsibility" to be lacking. Sure, players should take responsibility. So should gaming companies! History is filled with examples of corporations who happily ducked their responsibility until people stood up and made them behave ethically. I'd rather that gaming companies self-regulated, but if they don't self-regulate and clean up their act, I won't weep for them when legislatures start doing it for them.

I agree with most of that, certainly! Customers should have accurate information at least. And I wish that the negative response to these latest exorbitant Gem-exclusives would motivate ZOS to better practices, but I guess it makes them enough money? Does whatever percentage buy enough that it’s worth it to ZOS to cut out those of us who don’t buy RNG crates? That is boggling... and unfortunate.

And my apologies for confusing you with a previous poster! I should have thought to check instead of wondering that the person I had originally replied to had replied with a much more rational reply!

Like I said, its totally fine!

And yeah, a lot of this mess does come down to game companies leaning very hard into monetization strategies that emphasize reliance on a relative few "whales" instead of relying on selling the majority of their playerbase what they want for decent prices. Its boggling, unfortunate, and makes game companies enough profit that they'll keep doing it. It just sucks for the average consumer, even when we don't get into the whole moral issue of gambling or unethical rigging of crates.

I suspect loot crates are here to stay as a profit-making mechanism, unfortunately. As a whole, consumers just aren't going to agree on a single line in the sand and people will continue to buy loot boxes for enticing items they want. So I'll settle for regulating loot boxes and better transparency, whether game companies do it or governments make them.

ESO, at least, is less scummy than many loot crate games (TBH, I'm not sure whether that's damning with faint praise). Crown Crates arent Pay to Win or marketed to children. It'll be a step in the right direction when they have to release the odds for Crown Crates thanks to the console providers bowing to pressure to be more transparent.

Ethics aside, you’d think they’d make even more money by making more options available outside of Crown crates. Wouldn’t it be better to make a larger percentage of the player base happy while generating even more revenue? If the newest “shinies” were still tied to Crown crates I imagine those who buy them still would.

ESO is not the worst but I think it’s fair to say they could be much better. GW2 has relatively few things that are RNG-only and the premium mount skins are around $20 if bought with real money and, I think it’s fair to say largely as a result of that, a great many people buy them. Considering that these are pixels and not physical items, I would expect that to be the more profitable model.

zyk

ErinM31 wrote: »

Ethics aside, you’d think they’d make even more money by making more options available outside of Crown crates. Wouldn’t it be better to make a larger percentage of the player base happy while generating even more revenue? If the newest “shinies” were still tied to Crown crates I imagine those who buy them still would.

The ethical issue is that they earn far more with Crates because they are addictive. If gambling wasn't so regulated in many western nations, we would see it everywhere -- perhaps the most desirable phones would be available only through rng phone crates -- and Gambling corporations would probably dominate economies.

Anytime loopholes are found, they are exploited. Like in online games via crates and in places like this....

Raideen

zyk wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

Ethics aside, you’d think they’d make even more money by making more options available outside of Crown crates. Wouldn’t it be better to make a larger percentage of the player base happy while generating even more revenue? If the newest “shinies” were still tied to Crown crates I imagine those who buy them still would.

The ethical issue is that they earn far more with Crates because they are addictive. If gambling wasn't so regulated in many western nations, we would see it everywhere -- perhaps the most desirable phones would be available only through rng phone crates -- and Gambling corporations would probably dominate economies.

Anytime loopholes are found, they are exploited. Like in online games via crates and in places like this....

AND its even worse because THEY can change the drop % at will, with no accountability, and no transparency.
At least in a game of poker there is a fixed amount of plays, albeit very high it can not be changed without cheating.
With digital cards, the amount of winning drops can be modified to fit their desire for more purchases.

"Ooooops...too many people getting mounts from 15 crates, we need to lower drop chance to ensure at least a 30 crate purchase on average".

Jhalin

Now in addition to crates, which, while horrendously predatory and scummy, didn’t provide innate bonus over those who choose not to pay for them, were now getting something that not even the most stringent “just don’t buy it” or “it’s grindable so not P2W” or “it’s just cosmetics” can’t even argue isn’t P2W. The pack boar, which gives 5 inventory spaces for every single character you have.

Completely and utterly unavailable via gameplay. The max amount of characters is 18, meaning it’s provides up to 90 more spaces of storage over someone who doesn’t pay.

Hanokihs

Jhalin wrote: »

Now in addition to crates, which, while horrendously predatory and scummy, didn’t provide innate bonus over those who choose not to pay for them, were now getting something that not even the most stringent “just don’t buy it” or “it’s grindable so not P2W” or “it’s just cosmetics” can’t even argue isn’t P2W. The pack boar, which gives 5 inventory spaces for every single character you have.

Completely and utterly unavailable via gameplay. The max amount of characters is 18, meaning it’s provides up to 90 more spaces of storage over someone who doesn’t pay.

Pack space isn't P2W. You don't need more than the standard pack slots to excel in the game. (Even if that wasn't true, we already burned that bridge with the craft bag, so meh)

Mr_Walker

Jhalin wrote: »

Now in addition to crates, which, while horrendously predatory and scummy, didn’t provide innate bonus over those who choose not to pay for them, were now getting something that not even the most stringent “just don’t buy it” or “it’s grindable so not P2W” or “it’s just cosmetics” can’t even argue isn’t P2W. The pack boar, which gives 5 inventory spaces for every single character you have.

Completely and utterly unavailable via gameplay. The max amount of characters is 18, meaning it’s provides up to 90 more spaces of storage over someone who doesn’t pay.

As scummy as I think crown crates are... you don't know what p2w is.

Raideen

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Now in addition to crates, which, while horrendously predatory and scummy, didn’t provide innate bonus over those who choose not to pay for them, were now getting something that not even the most stringent “just don’t buy it” or “it’s grindable so not P2W” or “it’s just cosmetics” can’t even argue isn’t P2W. The pack boar, which gives 5 inventory spaces for every single character you have.

Completely and utterly unavailable via gameplay. The max amount of characters is 18, meaning it’s provides up to 90 more spaces of storage over someone who doesn’t pay.

As scummy as I think crown crates are... you don't know what p2w is.

No offense but I don't think you do either.

Most people (and I am assuming you) relate PTW in FPS terms, but no one really "WINS" MMORPG's. Part of the nature of an MMORPG is collecting, in fact that is a huge metric as to why people play. "Winning" in an MMORPG is arguably "he who dies with the most toys".

Anything you can buy in the crown store that give you an advantage over someone else, or that can not be purchased with gold in game is PTW in MMORPG terms.

AefionBloodclaw

I agree with the OP, it's disgusting behaviour. I was thinking of buying 1 set of crates just for some of the furnishings, but I think it's probably better to stop supporting this revolting crown crates trash and vote against them.

Jhalin

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Now in addition to crates, which, while horrendously predatory and scummy, didn’t provide innate bonus over those who choose not to pay for them, were now getting something that not even the most stringent “just don’t buy it” or “it’s grindable so not P2W” or “it’s just cosmetics” can’t even argue isn’t P2W. The pack boar, which gives 5 inventory spaces for every single character you have.

Completely and utterly unavailable via gameplay. The max amount of characters is 18, meaning it’s provides up to 90 more spaces of storage over someone who doesn’t pay.

As scummy as I think crown crates are... you don't know what p2w is.

And you seem the sort that will defend “pay for convenience” as if it isn’t just as damaging to the gaming industry. This is beyond even what you can logically defend. Of course you don’t win the game with 90 more storage spots, but it provides a tangible bonus that cannot possibly be equalized by a non-purchaser. It is 90 extra slots. It’s basically 9 more bank upgrades.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

MotokoHutt wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

MotokoHutt wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Sorry, stopped reading after your first two lines. You were never essentially guaranteed an apex or sweetroll in 15 crates. If that was your experience, good for you. What you experienced was good RNG. The drop rates have not changed in any way from release and there are resources to show that.

If you start a conversation with inaccurate information, you really don't have much to start with.

Am I a huge fan of lootboxes? No. However, I am a fan of knowledge and statistics and https://www.crowncrates.com/ is an amazing resource that anyone interested in crown crates should check out beforehand. Be educated about your purchases and understand how RNG works.

Maybe one day we'll live in a world without predatory loot boxes, but for now we have to work with what we have and be responsible about it.

Frankly I think you and whoever made that link of yours are just niave. I call BS on your "statement" if you can call it that, companies change odds of things all the time and can do on the fly threw software. HELL there is even entire companies out there dedicated to helping gaming dev's to marginalise on people based on collected data and spending patterns.

I'm sure your "feely feels" about the drop rates are right and the thousands of points of data are fabricated.

Can companies change odds? Sure.

Did they do it in this case? I don't believe so... based on real actual data and not feels.

Yeah cus fabricated data is super reliable cus I am sure companies ALWAYS release acurate information and we live in a world full of sun shine and rainbows and unicorns that fart magical glitter that tastes like cup cakes =_=

You really should learn how percentages work

Zacuel

Yeah I still think people should just not buy them...

But it's not my place to decide how someone else should spend their cash.

And if there are people spending when they know they shouldn't.... Get the help you need because assuming the victim role gets old fast and before you know it nobody cares anymore.

Goregrinder

You KNEW trying for that mount was a "chance" and not a "guarantee" beforehand...but you still proceeded. I do not feel bad for you one bit.

svartorn

Loot crates are predatory. End of story. It's not up for discussion.

They'll be banned in Europe before too long. America loves dicking over customers as much as possible so it'll probably never be banned here. Definitely won't as long as Darth Cheeto is in office.

Gnortranermara

I draw the line at personal responsibility and individual freedom. Are you free to make your own choice? Yes. And pathetic excuses about personal behavioral self-regulation dysfunctions ("gambling", "addiction", "exploitation", "predatory", etc) do NOT qualify as being unfree. Those excuses indicate that someone is not a real adult, mentally. Put away the childish things and stop pining for nanny state authority figures to make rules that control and restrict other people's ability to engage in voluntary exchanges just because you don't like them. Grow up.

Elsonso

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I draw the line at personal responsibility and individual freedom. Are you free to make your own choice? Yes. And pathetic excuses about personal behavioral self-regulation dysfunctions ("gambling", "addiction", "exploitation", "predatory", etc) do NOT qualify as being unfree. Those excuses indicate that someone is not a real adult, mentally. Put away the childish things and stop pining for nanny state authority figures to make rules that control and restrict other people's ability to engage in voluntary exchanges just because you don't like them. Grow up.

How about when I feel it adversely impacts what the studio delivers for the game?

Goregrinder

lordrichter wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I draw the line at personal responsibility and individual freedom. Are you free to make your own choice? Yes. And pathetic excuses about personal behavioral self-regulation dysfunctions ("gambling", "addiction", "exploitation", "predatory", etc) do NOT qualify as being unfree. Those excuses indicate that someone is not a real adult, mentally. Put away the childish things and stop pining for nanny state authority figures to make rules that control and restrict other people's ability to engage in voluntary exchanges just because you don't like them. Grow up.

How about when I feel it adversely impacts what the studio delivers for the game?

The good news for you is, you're allowed to feel however you want to feel about anything. The good news for us is, how YOU feel about anything is not our business or responsibility.

Araneae6537

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I draw the line at personal responsibility and individual freedom. Are you free to make your own choice? Yes. And pathetic excuses about personal behavioral self-regulation dysfunctions ("gambling", "addiction", "exploitation", "predatory", etc) do NOT qualify as being unfree. Those excuses indicate that someone is not a real adult, mentally. Put away the childish things and stop pining for nanny state authority figures to make rules that control and restrict other people's ability to engage in voluntary exchanges just because you don't like them. Grow up.

I totally agree. Addiction is an actual chemical dependency. Predatory is something you have no choice in. Yes, some things are tempting and yes, our brains are wired to feel reward in response to different activities. But part of being an adult and not a child is learning to delay gratification, to set boundaries on one’s behavior, including spending, and not buy/eat/etc. everything that entices. There is nothing wrong with seeking help in changing behavior and I’m not dismissing the difficulty, but it is voluntary and the term addiction is used far too liberally to the disservice of everyone.

@lordrichter I feel that. I wish these RNG crates were a more limited aspect of the Crown store and find the degree to which they are pushed distasteful and not a positive development for the game. But there is still much in this game that I really enjoy, so I choose to still be here. As much as I would like the RNG crates to be diminished and do not buy them in anyway myself in this game, I cannot in good conscience support regulating the voluntary exchanges of others.

martinhpb16_ESO

Its always the same with MMOs.

Its about micro-transactions and they gradually push the boundaries to see how far players will go.

They dont give a monkeys about us.

I played another MMO for 7 years before there was a mass exodus when ESO came out, but by then they had reaped in millions.

- Less communication from Devs as to their reasoning
- Not listening or responding to player concerns
- The growing gap between a disgruntled player base and an entrenched dev team
- More and more micro-transaction focus

Its the same story.

martinhpb16_ESO

https://www.theguardian.com/games/2019/sep/12/video-game-loot-boxes-should-be-classed-as-gambling-says-commons

Jusey1

I will never waste money on gambling boxes. I want one of the Hollowjack mounts for example but I want to spend my money directly on it. Not gamble my money away for a mere chance.

Goregrinder

Jusey1 wrote: »

I will never waste money on gambling boxes. I want one of the Hollowjack mounts for example but I want to spend my money directly on it. Not gamble my money away for a mere chance.

And I appreciate that you analyzed the pros and cons, and came to the decision that it would be nice to have it, BUT you do not want to invest what is required to obtain it. Literally the definition of rational.

Elsonso

ErinM31 wrote: »

@lordrichter I feel that. I wish these RNG crates were a more limited aspect of the Crown store and find the degree to which they are pushed distasteful and not a positive development for the game. But there is still much in this game that I really enjoy, so I choose to still be here. As much as I would like the RNG crates to be diminished and do not buy them in anyway myself in this game, I cannot in good conscience support regulating the voluntary exchanges of others.

The thing that bugs me is that there are plenty of loot box games out there for people to play. ESO is nothing special. Actually, it is a little disappointing on that score.

In the end, what apparently drives this game is loot box revenue. We can't claim stellar performance. We can't claim kick ass DLC. We can't claim best of breed combat. The game is good, but it is obvious that it could have been better, and we have to wait 3 months for what we get.

We can claim almost constant Crown Store attention and updates, often times driven by loot box play.

Oh well.

Goregrinder

lordrichter wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

@lordrichter I feel that. I wish these RNG crates were a more limited aspect of the Crown store and find the degree to which they are pushed distasteful and not a positive development for the game. But there is still much in this game that I really enjoy, so I choose to still be here. As much as I would like the RNG crates to be diminished and do not buy them in anyway myself in this game, I cannot in good conscience support regulating the voluntary exchanges of others.

The thing that bugs me is that there are plenty of loot box games out there for people to play. ESO is nothing special. Actually, it is a little disappointing on that score.

In the end, what apparently drives this game is loot box revenue. We can't claim stellar performance. We can't claim kick ass DLC. We can't claim best of breed combat. The game is good, but it is obvious that it could have been better, and we have to wait 3 months for what we get.

We can claim almost constant Crown Store attention and updates, often times driven by loot box play.

Oh well.

Yeah, but even in CSGO I just buy all the skins I want directly, I don't even bother with the RNG cases.

Jusey1

Goregrinder wrote: »

And I appreciate that you analyzed the pros and cons, and came to the decision that it would be nice to have it, BUT you do not want to invest what is required to obtain it. Literally the definition of rational.

I am being rational. I will not accept nor will I ever accept that true gambling should be in my video games. I'm open to microtransactions, even overpriced ones, but I will never support gambling. There is NO PRO SIDE of gambling other than "You might get lucky at your first shot!". When it comes to real money and purchasing goods, especially digital goods for a video game that is cosmetic only... I want to know for sure, a 100% chance for sure I am getting what I am getting at the named price. I will not gambling my money away for the mere chance of getting what I want even if I MIGHT get lucky...

That is the only pro of having a gambling monetization system for the consumer... The chance that you might pay a lot less if you get lucky, which will be so minimal because the dev team and business people aren't idiots. There is truly no good reason to ever have a gambling system in the Crown Store and I am glad that there is a high chance of it becoming illegal or at the very least rating A for adult in the future, because screw gambling boxes... They are terrible, aggressive, and just plan bad for the consumer.

This is literally me being rational here because I can understand wanting microtransactions. I can understand wanting to make bigger profits and I'm fine with businesses doing different things, be it direct purchases, battle passes, etc. However, I also think it's rational to ask for the same respect from the game developers as well. To ask to NOT be treated like idiots, to be NOT be exploited, and NOT be exposed to actual issues like gambling addiction in this case. If the corporation wants respect, it has to earn it and treat their consumer right. I am very reasonable to a lot of things but by Zaros, I will not be treated like a stupid cow full of money.

Mayrael

VaranisArano wrote: »

Draw the line where,you want to.

My line was not relying on RNG to get what I want to buy, so I've never bought a Crown Crate.

This. Eventhough sometimes you may be tempted to buy those darn crates I have bought maybe 5 of them at best since their introduction. I will never relay on RNG when spending my money.