Where do we draw the line?

MotokoHutt

Honestly this whole crown crate thing has become sickening. I remember when they first released them, you bought yourself a pack of 15 crates and you where pretty much garenteed an Apex mount or even better a delicious sweetroll. Now you buy 15 crates and you will be lucky to get a gold (not so legendary) item, it's not like there even being creative with there crown crate rewards ether, they recycle skins that have been on NPC's for months if not years, they recolour an animal or shrink an enemy to give you a small one. I mean how much effort does this really take ZoS? 1 single afternoon on photoshop and maya and I could do all the work for your crown crates.

My partner was looking forward to getting the new Goutfang Senche-Raht mount, she had her money all saved up crowns a plenty waiting just encase it turned out to be more crowns then she had predicted, she was willing to pay upto 5000 crowns for a SINGLE mount, which in on it's self is extortionate yet she was willing and able, she would have happily shoved her cash in ZOS's big fat gob and said "take my money" yet now? 500 gems for a single mount? thats more then a damn apex, and you couldnt even give people a choice whether to buy it with crowns or gamble there money? Stop forcing people to play your slot machines this is NOT a casino.

I am sure plenty of people are equally upset about the pocket watcher aswell. ZoS....... 300 GEMS for a shrunk down version of an enemy thats been in the game since launch? Have you seriosly lost the plot? This Crown Crate money pit has to stop, or your just going to drive players away. Have you not been reading gaming news in the past 2 or so years and been living under a rock? With countries officially declaring loot boxes as gambling and entire games getting boycot due to even HAVING loot boxes in them you really think this baloney fly's?

Enough has to be enough at some point, and honestly I have been a paying member of this game for years now and I am starting to get to the end of my tether with your level of incompetence. Not like there isnt a long long LONG list of other games I could be playing instead of your cash grab simulator.

VaranisArano

Draw the line where,you want to.

My line was not relying on RNG to get what I want to buy, so I've never bought a Crown Crate.

Alienoutlaw

but if your partner had the gems and got the mount how would this post of gone then?
sounds like sour grapes

Dalsinthus

I don’t mind the crates but the gem exclusives really get under my skin. The watcher pet is 300 gems, sench raht is 500. It’s absurd. Hard pass from me.

MotokoHutt

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

but if your partner had the gems and got the mount how would this post of gone then?
sounds like sour grapes

If my partner had the gems and bought it for 500 gems I would be seveerly disapointed in them for supporting cancerous buisness practises and I would still be making this post.

hellhound223

I'm really disappointed in the pricing. If I want the senche-raht - and I do, because I love all things Khajiit - I will have to turn the resplendent sweetroll I got free in a Psijic crate last year into gems to be able to afford it (and I don't want to do that because I love my sweetroll!). The irony is that if it had been priced more reasonably, I might even have been willing to buy some gamble crates to scrape together the gems for it...but for 500 gems? That's not an option.

Starlock

The cash shop in this game is a scam and a racket. It doesn't take much research to figure this out. Anything outside of a subscription and substantive pieces of content (e.g., chapters/DLCs) is horrendously overpriced. On top of that, aspects of the game have been deliberately designed to prey on human psychology and funnel you into the cash shop. One of the worst offenders in that regard are the gamble crates, which are even being recognized as a problem by slothful governments worldwide. This isn't going to stop. In fact, the level of predatory monetization in ESO has gotten steadily worse over the past couple years.

The line won't be drawn until more and more gamers realize they are being exploited and taken advantage of by this "games as service" rubbish which would be more accurately be described as "play to pay." This game is beyond saving. They will not turn around and improve their monetization model. The only solution at this point is to stop playing to pay.

sharquez

It's up to the players to stop throwing away disposable income on these fleeting overpriced luxury items. I will say i myself am guilty of spending needlessly on thing on this game, But I definitely avoid the crates and usually spend my monthly stipend on more assured things that will benefit me.

idk

Stop buying the crates. Those buying the crates are feeding the problem. Buying crates then coming to the forums and complaining about it seems rather pointless.

Araneae6537

I have ESO+ and am in no way against there being a Crown Store. As a new player, I very much appreciated being able to buy costumes I liked for 500-1000 Crowns so I could enjoy my characters’ appearances as I leveled them through whatever armor I cobbled together from loot — totally worth it for me!

For other things too it’s nice to have the option to buy now with Crowns or work on saving up the gold and completing necessary achievements and searching for good deals through traders (thinking especially about houses and furnishings here).

Two practices, however, seem to me to be in poor taste:

1) Sale of items/services for Crowns that are easy and inexpensive to obtain in game, namely, basic motifs and skill/attribute respecs. Yes, buyer beware and all that, but what sort of impression do you think this will create on a new player who picks up one of these things thinking it’s a good deal or even not otherwise available? I almost bought one of the basic motif packs when I started the game, but thankfully discovered you could get them for gold or often simply for the asking before I did. I exclude skill lines and Skyshard collections from this since a player will have needed to acquire them in-game on another character first and therefore knows what is involved and can make an informed choice.

2) Excessive Gem exclusives. If the latest shinies were Gem/Crate exclusive but older items regularly cycled to be available for Crowns, I would be totally okay with that. There are many of us who prefer to directly buy what we want rather than RNG, plus there are many other aspects of how the Crates work that are a turn off to me. Numerous things could be changed to get more of my money! But I am not going to buy Crown Crates as they are now, even for Gem exclusives that aren’t extra exorbitantly priced (500 gems?!). Such practices rather make me more stubbornly set against it.

edited for typos

Girl_Number8

This from Op's post is dead on

"I remember when they first released them, you bought yourself a pack of 15 crates and you where pretty much guaranteed an Apex mount or even better a delicious sweetroll."

I think people should make posts about this because crown crates are highly predatory to a lot of players.

I said the same thing "Just don't buy the crates." but the issue is that people are buying them. Which has pushed more crown store items to be sold in the casino crates at outlandish pricing if you have seen the odds.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting the crates to be more fair. It is just mostly cosmetics and if that makes players happy and Zos money, it is a win win situation. It would probably make Zos even more money because more crates would be bought.

Though I would like to see crates completely gone from the crown store all together and the merch just in the crown store for crowns. As it use to be for a very long time.

Merrien

I admit I bought crates too trying to get enough gems to get the pocket watcher pet. I did not get enough gems to get it, I'm still like 47 shy or something like that. I'm tapped out and disappointed-- also disappointed in myself for paying too much for crates and then not even getting my goal from it.

I don't mind the crates, but I mind the gem exclusive stuff. It'd be nice to have crown option on them. I feel like Pacrooti pulled a fast one and is now laughing his cat butt off at me in the Sugar Bowl. And I have sucker on my forehead.

Disappointed.

TelvanniWizard

Scam crates are a scam. The day ZoS decides to earn money offering all their pixel creations for a fixed price in a permanent store, I'll call them honest. Right now, I deem them criminal.

redspecter23

Sorry, stopped reading after your first two lines. You were never essentially guaranteed an apex or sweetroll in 15 crates. If that was your experience, good for you. What you experienced was good RNG. The drop rates have not changed in any way from release and there are resources to show that.

If you start a conversation with inaccurate information, you really don't have much to start with.

Am I a huge fan of lootboxes? No. However, I am a fan of knowledge and statistics and https://www.crowncrates.com/ is an amazing resource that anyone interested in crown crates should check out beforehand. Be educated about your purchases and understand how RNG works.

Maybe one day we'll live in a world without predatory loot boxes, but for now we have to work with what we have and be responsible about it.

LadyAstrum

I agree OP and good post. Crown crates aren't about what you get inside them anymore, they are about tempting players into building their gems in order to purchase gem items. If we got what we wanted from the crates themselves ZoS would make less money. They make money from us spending money on crowns, to purchase crown crates, to build gems.

jaws343

The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.

I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.

You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.

If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.

Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.

Avariprivateer

jaws343 wrote: »

When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.

Where I come from, until this year, matinees cost $5 a head ( 6 evening) and candy was ranged from $1.75- 3.00. The theater walls had hand painted scenery and balconies. No audio ads. Greed is not eternal.

Its now $6 to get in, and the candy is a buck more,and the advertisments annoy, but it remains the best deal by far.

Araneae6537

jaws343 wrote: »

The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.

I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.

You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.

If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.

Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.

I agree 100%. I will never call loot boxes “predatory” or anything else that implies I have no choice or will of my own. I do think some practices are in poor taste but no, it is hyperbolic to call things like loot boxes “criminal.”

I still leave my feedback, for whatever it may be worth, as well as voting with my wallet.

Carbonised

jaws343 wrote: »

They are optional.

It's optional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTitHF6-xlI

It's only cosmetics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce5CDrq4dGg

Please stop repeating the "it's optional" drivel.

LadyAstrum

jaws343 wrote: »

The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.

Just because it is optional (in this instance) it doesn't mean people cannot see and express their distaste with the system.

jaws343

Carbonised wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

They are optional.

It's optional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTitHF6-xlI

It's only cosmetics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce5CDrq4dGg

Please stop repeating the "it's optional" drivel.

Please, explain to me in your own words how you are being forced to pay for crowns. Please, explain to me how it isn't optional.

The fact, and the only fact, is, no one. Not a single person. No one is forcing anyone to spend money on crowns or crown crates. Not once, not ever. Nothing in them is essential to play the game. Not once has anything in a crown crate been essential to play the game. It has never happened. They are optional. They are optional. Because, they are not essential and no one, ever, has been forced to purchase them. Sometimes, they even give them away for free. They provide pretty pixels that your character can wear or ride. Oh no! The horror. They are optional.

redspecter23

jaws343 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

They are optional.

It's optional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTitHF6-xlI

It's only cosmetics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce5CDrq4dGg

Please stop repeating the "it's optional" drivel.

Please, explain to me in your own words how you are being forced to pay for crowns. Please, explain to me how it isn't optional.

The fact, and the only fact, is, no one. Not a single person. No one is forcing anyone to spend money on crowns or crown crates. Not once, not ever. Nothing in them is essential to play the game. Not once has anything in a crown crate been essential to play the game. It has never happened. They are optional. They are optional. Because, they are not essential and no one, ever, has been forced to purchase them. Sometimes, they even give them away for free. They provide pretty pixels that your character can wear or ride. Oh no! The horror. They are optional.

If the endgame for a person is fashion and customization, then these optional items become a part of the game that is locked behind a paywall. There is no mechanical, numerical advantage to crate items. This is true. However, in many games, this game as well, not every player is here for the same reasons. Housing minded players are encouraged to buy houses from the crown store. Not buying them will be a bottleneck for their preferred playstyle. If you enjoy fashion, then you will be bottlenecked by not having access to crates. ZOS is fully aware of this. They are not targetting elite pvp players or pve time trial players with crates. Players with those playstyles will see them as optional as it has no advantage for them. ZOS is targetting players that want to customize their game experience in aesthetic ways. Crates that provide access to these sort of aesthetic advantages also promote warping the game to encourage purchasing them. We have less access to in game aesthetics as a result.

At the end of the day, using the argument that it is optional is only relative to any given playstyle. You are NEVER forced to buy them, but nobody is forced to buy ESO+ and plenty of players do that. Nobody is forced to play the game and plenty of players do that.

Araneae6537

I feel like this thread has gotten way off track...

I am one of those players who would like to purchase these optional virtual cosmetics and is frustrated and disappointed that they can only be gotten through Crown Crates. But that doesn’t make it robbery. Can we not state our dissatisfaction with something and request change without hyperbole and drama?

redspecter23

ErinM31 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

They are optional.

It's optional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTitHF6-xlI

It's only cosmetics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce5CDrq4dGg

Please stop repeating the "it's optional" drivel.

Please, explain to me in your own words how you are being forced to pay for crowns. Please, explain to me how it isn't optional.

The fact, and the only fact, is, no one. Not a single person. No one is forcing anyone to spend money on crowns or crown crates. Not once, not ever. Nothing in them is essential to play the game. Not once has anything in a crown crate been essential to play the game. It has never happened. They are optional. They are optional. Because, they are not essential and no one, ever, has been forced to purchase them. Sometimes, they even give them away for free. They provide pretty pixels that your character can wear or ride. Oh no! The horror. They are optional.

If the endgame for a person is fashion and customization, then these optional items become a part of the game that is locked behind a paywall. There is no mechanical, numerical advantage to crate items. This is true. However, in many games, this game as well, not every player is here for the same reasons. Housing minded players are encouraged to buy houses from the crown store. Not buying them will be a bottleneck for their preferred playstyle. If you enjoy fashion, then you will be bottlenecked by not having access to crates. ZOS is fully aware of this. They are not targetting elite pvp players or pve time trial players with crates. Players with those playstyles will see them as optional as it has no advantage for them. ZOS is targetting players that want to customize their game experience in aesthetic ways. Crates that provide access to these sort of aesthetic advantages also promote warping the game to encourage purchasing them. We have less access to in game aesthetics as a result.

At the end of the day, using the argument that it is optional is only relative to any given playstyle. You are NEVER forced to buy them, but nobody is forced to buy ESO+ and plenty of players do that. Nobody is forced to play the game and plenty of players do that.

This is true and is why I and many others are frustrated and disappointed with how many items are Gem exclusives. I feel like this thread has gotten way off track from that though. I am one of those players who would like to purchase these optional virtual cosmetics and is frustrated and disappointed that they can only be gotten through Crown Crates. But that doesn’t make it robbery. Can we not state our dissatisfaction with something and request change without hyperbole and drama?

A very good point. A system can be completely legal but also be something players disagree with. Whether it's optional or not isn't a factor into whether it is liked or disliked by any individual person. Voicing a dislike for an optional game system is valid feedback. ZOS may not choose to do anything with that feedback, but we should all have the ability to talk about it.

Freddycruz89

It was painful to stop making purchases related to this game other than subscription BECAUSE I lovED the game. It really sucked to see people walking around in an amazing mounts or costume that were simply out of my financial reach because not everyone can cough up the funds for 500 crown gems for ONE item. As a roleplayer, cosmetics are a big part of the experience and it is just plain sickening to see how far the money grab has come.

I HAD TO STOP. HAD TO! A painful, but rational decision. I know it sucks, but all you can do is stop handing your money to them until the market is once again reasonable (at least for you). As some have mentioned, and while I do not like it, they are optional, and you can stop.

MotokoHutt

redspecter23 wrote: »

Sorry, stopped reading after your first two lines. You were never essentially guaranteed an apex or sweetroll in 15 crates. If that was your experience, good for you. What you experienced was good RNG. The drop rates have not changed in any way from release and there are resources to show that.

If you start a conversation with inaccurate information, you really don't have much to start with.

Am I a huge fan of lootboxes? No. However, I am a fan of knowledge and statistics and https://www.crowncrates.com/ is an amazing resource that anyone interested in crown crates should check out beforehand. Be educated about your purchases and understand how RNG works.

Maybe one day we'll live in a world without predatory loot boxes, but for now we have to work with what we have and be responsible about it.

Frankly I think you and whoever made that link of yours are just niave. I call BS on your "statement" if you can call it that, companies change odds of things all the time and can do on the fly threw software. HELL there is even entire companies out there dedicated to helping gaming dev's to marginalise on people based on collected data and spending patterns.

redspecter23

MotokoHutt wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Sorry, stopped reading after your first two lines. You were never essentially guaranteed an apex or sweetroll in 15 crates. If that was your experience, good for you. What you experienced was good RNG. The drop rates have not changed in any way from release and there are resources to show that.

If you start a conversation with inaccurate information, you really don't have much to start with.

Am I a huge fan of lootboxes? No. However, I am a fan of knowledge and statistics and https://www.crowncrates.com/ is an amazing resource that anyone interested in crown crates should check out beforehand. Be educated about your purchases and understand how RNG works.

Maybe one day we'll live in a world without predatory loot boxes, but for now we have to work with what we have and be responsible about it.

Frankly I think you and whoever made that link of yours are just niave. I call BS on your "statement" if you can call it that, companies change odds of things all the time and can do on the fly threw software. HELL there is even entire companies out there dedicated to helping gaming dev's to marginalise on people based on collected data and spending patterns.

I'm sure your "feely feels" about the drop rates are right and the thousands of points of data are fabricated.

Can companies change odds? Sure.

Did they do it in this case? I don't believe so... based on real actual data and not feels.

msalvia

As someone who has never bought a crown crate--because why would I blow IRL money for a random chance at purely cosmetic costumes, mounts, etc.--I know where the line is. It's a simple cost-benefit analysis:

Is the cost of x IRL dollars worth the benefit of (maybe) getting an item that functions EXACTLY THE SAME as the free ones I get in game?

Hard no. I get that this might be predatory for people with obsessive disorders or gambling addictions, but for the vast majority of players, this is a question of personal choice and impulse control.

For real, if you oppose crown crates, your options are 1) don't buy them (and maybe, if enough people stop buying them, they'll stop selling them), or 2) push for some kind of legal intervention like what's happening in Europe.

MotokoHutt

ErinM31 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.

I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.

You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.

If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.

Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.

I agree 100%. I will never call loot boxes “predatory” or anything else that implies I have no choice or will of my own. I do think some practices are in poor taste but no, it is hyperbolic to call things like loot boxes “criminal.”

I still leave my feedback, for whatever it may be worth, as well as voting with my wallet.

Thats like saying an Owl isnt predatory just cus the field mouse got a way. Regardless whether or not you boughtthe crown crates there still predatory, YOU dont get to pick if something preys on people or not, you just chose to get away from the predator if you can. I sware its comments like these that make me loose faith in the human race.

MotokoHutt

redspecter23 wrote: »

MotokoHutt wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Sorry, stopped reading after your first two lines. You were never essentially guaranteed an apex or sweetroll in 15 crates. If that was your experience, good for you. What you experienced was good RNG. The drop rates have not changed in any way from release and there are resources to show that.

If you start a conversation with inaccurate information, you really don't have much to start with.

Am I a huge fan of lootboxes? No. However, I am a fan of knowledge and statistics and https://www.crowncrates.com/ is an amazing resource that anyone interested in crown crates should check out beforehand. Be educated about your purchases and understand how RNG works.

Maybe one day we'll live in a world without predatory loot boxes, but for now we have to work with what we have and be responsible about it.

Frankly I think you and whoever made that link of yours are just niave. I call BS on your "statement" if you can call it that, companies change odds of things all the time and can do on the fly threw software. HELL there is even entire companies out there dedicated to helping gaming dev's to marginalise on people based on collected data and spending patterns.

I'm sure your "feely feels" about the drop rates are right and the thousands of points of data are fabricated.

Can companies change odds? Sure.

Did they do it in this case? I don't believe so... based on real actual data and not feels.

Yeah cus fabricated data is super reliable cus I am sure companies ALWAYS release acurate information and we live in a world full of sun shine and rainbows and unicorns that fart magical glitter that tastes like cup cakes =_=

Carbonised

jaws343 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

They are optional.

It's optional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTitHF6-xlI

It's only cosmetics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce5CDrq4dGg

Please stop repeating the "it's optional" drivel.

Please, explain to me in your own words how you are being forced to pay for crowns. Please, explain to me how it isn't optional.

Why would I write a lengthy explanation when Jim already made two excellent videos (and loads more) explaining exactly why the arguments "it's optional" and "it's only cosmetics" are nothing but a smokescreen and total drivel. A sentiment which I obviously also share.

It is also obvious that apologists like you would go to any lengths to defend multi-billion dollar companies of basically anything and everything. Though why you refuse to see the extremely manipulating and nefarious schemes of these greedy companies, in spite of the massive, massive mounting evidence, is really beyond me. Is it mere stupidity, or simply a belief that large companies are somehow infallible, and thus blame for everything wrong is going to be put on the consumer/individual, since obviously they are the faulty party, for being manipulated, coerced and cajoled into emptying their wallets through every cheap psychological trick possible?
Anywho, it's obvious you didn't watch any of the videos that I linked for a reason, or you wouldn't be asking the exact same questions those videos go a long way in actually responding to.