Where do we draw the line?
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Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MotokoHutt wrote: »The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.
I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.
You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.
If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.
Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.
I agree 100%. I will never call loot boxes “predatory” or anything else that implies I have no choice or will of my own. I do think some practices are in poor taste but no, it is hyperbolic to call things like loot boxes “criminal.”
I still leave my feedback, for whatever it may be worth, as well as voting with my wallet.
Thats like saying an Owl isnt predatory just cus the field mouse got a way. Regardless whether or not you boughtthe crown crates there still predatory, YOU dont get to pick if something preys on people or not, you just chose to get away from the predator if you can. I sware its comments like these that make me loose faith in the human race.
Wow. Okay, so there are people who are actually preyed on, deceived and worse. They don’t get a choice in the matter. Calling innocuous things like selling some silly thing in a game predatory diminishes people who have actually been preyed upon as well as people generally, implying we have no ability to control impulses and decide what is and isn’t worth our money.
It is comments like yours that make me lose faith in the human race.
It seems to me quite a privilege to live in a time and place that selling RNG virtual cosmetics can be considered predatory.Edited by Araneae6537 on October 11, 2019 12:30AM8 -
Lady_Lindel✭✭✭✭Personally, I don't buy the crates, but am annoyed about people having to buy things for gems. So I don't bother. I would like to see all things listed on different special NPCs (like the Golden) but all listings for all time. No more limited time things, no more gem purchases. This way people can save their crowns till they have enough for what they want. I always buy crowns when they are on sale and it would be nice to have the option of saving for specific things.2 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It’s optional.
It’s only cosmetics.
You don’t have to pay real life money for crates with crown gifting ...4 -
Zacuel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Another one of these...
Great!!!
Just don't buy them. You might not have your shiny Apex mount. But you'll save some cash irl and still be able to play.
It's a choice that nobody is forcing you to make. Buy or don't buy it's up to you. If it's a rip-off (which they are) then don't. If you have disposable income then go for it.
Was I clear enough?8 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MotokoHutt wrote: »The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.
I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.
You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.
If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.
Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.
I agree 100%. I will never call loot boxes “predatory” or anything else that implies I have no choice or will of my own. I do think some practices are in poor taste but no, it is hyperbolic to call things like loot boxes “criminal.”
I still leave my feedback, for whatever it may be worth, as well as voting with my wallet.
Thats like saying an Owl isnt predatory just cus the field mouse got a way. Regardless whether or not you boughtthe crown crates there still predatory, YOU dont get to pick if something preys on people or not, you just chose to get away from the predator if you can. I sware its comments like these that make me loose faith in the human race.
Wow. Okay, so there are people who are actually preyed on, deceived and worse. They don’t get a choice in the matter. Calling innocuous things like selling some silly thing in a game predatory diminishes people who have actually been preyed upon as well as people generally, implying we have no ability to control impulses and decide what is and isn’t worth our money.
It is comments like yours that make me lose faith in the human race.
It seems to me quite a privilege to live in a time and place that selling RNG virtual cosmetics can be considered predatory.
We're on a video game forum discussing methods of buying cosmetics. I think most of us understand that we're discussing1st World Problems, yeah?
So let's clarify what's meant by predatory.
When discussing Crown Crates and other Loot Boxes, the "predatory" part comes from the usage of the same tactics as gambling, namely, the way crown crates and other "gamble for what you want" mechanics play on and encourage the same addictive tendencies and human weaknesse that get people into trouble with actual gambling, which is one reason why most soceities have deemed it important to highly regulate actual gambling.
It's one of the reasons why its a big deal that Crown Crates and most other loot boxes aren't technically gambling under legal definitions. They don't fall under gambling regulations even though they use many of the same techniques. Legally, Crown Crates aren't treated as "predatory" in the same way that gambling is, even though they play on the same addictive behaviors and use many of the same techniques as actual gambling. For example, unlike my state lottery, ESO doesn't have to publish their official Crown Crate odds, so we have to rely on player-generated data instead.
That's also why there are a number of pushes to update those gambling laws to regulate loot boxes as well, or to push gaming companies to self-regulate before various legislatures do it for them. Its because loot boxes use many of the same techniques as gambling to fuel addictive tendencies, but are much less regulated, and consumers and lawmakers don't necessarily approve of companies using those techniques without regulation and oversight - especially not when some of those companies (not ESO) are marketing loot boxes to kids. (Gotta love the "think of the children" argument!)
Now, if you don't regard gambling as "predatory" because its completely optional, well, you probably won't agree that Crown Crates are "predatory" either. But hey, at least you know why they are called predatory, and why lots of people would like loot boxes to face greater regulations similar to actual gambling.10 -
Kiyakotari✭✭✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »MotokoHutt wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »Sorry, stopped reading after your first two lines. You were never essentially guaranteed an apex or sweetroll in 15 crates. If that was your experience, good for you. What you experienced was good RNG. The drop rates have not changed in any way from release and there are resources to show that.
If you start a conversation with inaccurate information, you really don't have much to start with.
Am I a huge fan of lootboxes? No. However, I am a fan of knowledge and statistics and https://www.crowncrates.com/ is an amazing resource that anyone interested in crown crates should check out beforehand. Be educated about your purchases and understand how RNG works.
Maybe one day we'll live in a world without predatory loot boxes, but for now we have to work with what we have and be responsible about it.
Frankly I think you and whoever made that link of yours are just niave. I call BS on your "statement" if you can call it that, companies change odds of things all the time and can do on the fly threw software. HELL there is even entire companies out there dedicated to helping gaming dev's to marginalise on people based on collected data and spending patterns.
I'm sure your "feely feels" about the drop rates are right and the thousands of points of data are fabricated.
Can companies change odds? Sure.
Did they do it in this case? I don't believe so... based on real actual data and not feels.
I'm sorry, but I have to point out the errors in this, as someone who has been watching the data accumulated by the Crown Crate Tracker from the very beginning, and has indeed watched the drop rates of the Apex and Radiant Apex mounts fall off. They seem (when you look back on the older crate seasons now) as if they have not done so, but keep in mind that that data (which is kept current and up to date) includes the re-releases of those crate seasons, in which the drop rates have indeed been lower than they originally were.4 -
ChunkyCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like to go to the beach and walk around in long sleeves and skinny jeans. As I’m walking, I also use a stick to draw lines everywhere.
When people look at me weird, I just tell them “this is where I draw the line in the sand.”
Then I move onto another spot and do it all over again.6 -
Kelces✭✭✭✭✭My grandfather always kept saying "Gambling is a tax for stupid people..."
How right he was. Too much scamming going on with the fake videos with manipulated drop chance etc. Just leave it and you'll keep your money and nerves.
You reveal yourself best in how you play.
Kelces - Argonian Templar
Farel Donvu - Dark Elf Sorcerer
Navam Llervu - Dark Elf Dragonknight
Aniseth - Wood Elf Warden
Therediel - Wood Elf Templar
Nilonwy - Wood Elf Nightblade
Jurupari - Argonian Warden
Kú-Chulainn - Argonian Sorcerer
PC - EU
For the Pact!13 -
Skitamine✭✭✭Well they do have to get the cash for TES 6 and make up for Fallout 76 from somewhere (I just hope TES6 won't get one of those cash shop and let modders still be a thing).
On the plus side eso+ get free stuff too, but damn some mounts/pets are way too expenssives for what it is.0 -
haelene✭✭✭✭✭
✭MotokoHutt wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »MotokoHutt wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »Sorry, stopped reading after your first two lines. You were never essentially guaranteed an apex or sweetroll in 15 crates. If that was your experience, good for you. What you experienced was good RNG. The drop rates have not changed in any way from release and there are resources to show that.
If you start a conversation with inaccurate information, you really don't have much to start with.
Am I a huge fan of lootboxes? No. However, I am a fan of knowledge and statistics and https://www.crowncrates.com/ is an amazing resource that anyone interested in crown crates should check out beforehand. Be educated about your purchases and understand how RNG works.
Maybe one day we'll live in a world without predatory loot boxes, but for now we have to work with what we have and be responsible about it.
Frankly I think you and whoever made that link of yours are just niave. I call BS on your "statement" if you can call it that, companies change odds of things all the time and can do on the fly threw software. HELL there is even entire companies out there dedicated to helping gaming dev's to marginalise on people based on collected data and spending patterns.
I'm sure your "feely feels" about the drop rates are right and the thousands of points of data are fabricated.
Can companies change odds? Sure.
Did they do it in this case? I don't believe so... based on real actual data and not feels.
Yeah cus fabricated data is super reliable cus I am sure companies ALWAYS release acurate information and we live in a world full of sun shine and rainbows and unicorns that fart magical glitter that tastes like cup cakes =_=
??? The data on that website is from an addon made by a third party that tracks the content players actually get when opening crates - it's not from ZOS itself. Maybe read up on the link before going with a wild conspiracy theory that ZOS has released incorrect numbers. The truth is that Zos has released no odds, period (which is a problem in and of itself).
That said, I do believe you are partially correct in that crates have become more and more weighted towards the "lesser" rewards. It would be interesting to see a direct comparison of the Storm Atronach Crates when they were first released, versus their subsequent re-releases.2 -
haelene✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Mr_Walker is correct. That and : *Any addictive personality including non-gambling addictions, children, people with depression or manic disorders, bi-polar, borderline, ect.
Also the idea that regular well balanced individuals can't fall prey to the biological science behind why these boxes work is ... well... incorrect as well. Not at the same level as someone else - but yes, it is still an issue.
Do I think lootboxes should be outlawed completely? No. But I do agree they should be tightly regulated and have warnings associated with them so that people can make more informed decisions. The fact that ZOS is not required to post the odd's of their boxes is preposterous.
Please stop downplaying the seriousness of this. It is a problem. Saying it isn't a problem for everyone because it isn't for you and the people you know is ridiculous and indicative of some serious tunnel vision. Statements like yours are why they can put literal slots in games without regulation.Edited by haelene on October 13, 2019 5:09PM8 -
beadabow✭✭✭I had to stop buying them after the Murkmire crates. I didn't realize how much money I had spent until after I bought wayyyy too many crates. After "buyer's remorse" set in, I vowed "never again." So far, it has worked out well for me. I won't even look at that section in the crown store anymore. It's just too tempting.3 -
LadyAstrum✭✭✭✭✭
✭Another one of these...
Great!!!
Just don't buy them. You might not have your shiny Apex mount. But you'll save some cash irl and still be able to play.
It's a choice that nobody is forcing you to make. Buy or don't buy it's up to you. If it's a rip-off (which they are) then don't. If you have disposable income then go for it.
Was I clear enough?
People don't understand that by locking items, except plain horses, behind crates/gems etc is that a chunk of the game experience is not within reach...unless you put your hands in your pocket (bank account). In times gone by such items would be earnable in game. Psychologically people feel an experience is denied to them because they cannot earn it with effort in the game, they must instead be granted or denied based on their luck or based on how big their bank balance is. So yes, it's a choice, but it also feels like you're missing items you might otherwise have if you were able to earn items.
ZoS understands the psychological element even if some of their customers don't.Edited by LadyAstrum on October 13, 2019 7:17PM~ "You think me brutish? How do you imagine I view you?" - Molag Bal #misunderstood ~6 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Traditionally, in sand...MotokoHutt wrote: »Where do we draw the line?
But whatever makes you think the powers that be ever would care about any line we draw???
With the crown crates... yeah, I too wish them gone, but I accept that they are here to stay for the forseeable future. And will remain thus as long as they get ZOS the profit they desire...
Me, I ignore them until I see something I want, then buy some and turn the crap I get into gems until I can purchase what I want. And if its too expensive (yes, like the pocket watcher...) - well... then I obviously don't want it badly enough, and do without.
3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The line won't be drawn until more and more gamers realize they are being exploited and taken advantage of by this "games as service" rubbish which would be more accurately be described as "play to pay." This game is beyond saving. They will not turn around and improve their monetization model. The only solution at this point is to stop playing to pay.
Never gonna happen.
Obviously, the studios do not think they are doing anything wrong. It does not matter whether 90% of the players ignore monetization as long as the studio caters to and nurtures the top spenders. When the studio can do that, they are justified in their thinking. The monetization methods stay, and improve to better service those who are paying.
Meanwhile, the rest of us get to suffer through a reduction in what is considered "part of the game" so that the studio can monetize it by pulling that part out, putting an additional price tag on it, and labeling it as "cosmetic" and "optional". For many people, those cosmetic items were the reason for buying the game in the first place, and now they have to pay extra for something they once considered part of the game.
The person I quote below totally gets what I want in a game. I want games where they aren't ransacking things that could be in the game so that they can monetize them. At best, I have to pay extra. At worst, this stuff is crammed into a loot box system. I don't care if it is cosmetic, or "optional", it used to be part of the game. For more and more games, now it is not. Worse, because this is where the studio makes the money, this is where they focus efforts.Players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.
5 -
Sailor_Palutena✭✭✭✭
I almost never buy those, except when I see cheap gem things I want like a emote or personality, so I just extract gems from whatever comes inside. I think I hit the Jackpot last time I did. Bought four boxes and ended up with 2 emotes, 2 pets, 1 mount and 1 personality.VaranisArano wrote: »Draw the line where,you want to.
My line was not relying on RNG to get what I want to buy, so I've never bought a Crown Crate.0 -
wenchmore420b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭“When the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, they end up running the companies. The product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products.”
_Steve Jobs (The Lost Interview)Drakon Koryn~Oryndill, Rogue~Mage,- CP ~Doesn't matter any more
NA / PC Beta Member since Nov 2013
GM~Conclave-of-Shadows, EP Social Guild, ~Proud member of: The Wandering Merchants, Phoenix Rising, Imperial Trade Union & Celestials of Nirn
Sister Guilds with: Coroner's Report, Children of Skyrim, Sunshine Daydream, Tamriel Fisheries, Knights Arcanum and more
"Not All Who Wander are Lost"
#MOREHOUSINGSLOTS“When the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, they end up running the companies. The product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products.”
_Steve Jobs (The Lost Interview)6 -
Imryll✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Draw the line where,you want to.
My line was not relying on RNG to get what I want to buy, so I've never bought a Crown Crate.
I thought that was my line, too, but recently I bought four crates feeling confident that they would give me enough gems so that I'd have enough to buy the (rather inexpensive) item I wanted.
0 -
Veinblood1965✭✭✭✭✭
✭Carbonised wrote: »They are optional.
It's optional
It's only cosmetics
Please stop repeating the "it's optional" drivel.
Please, explain to me in your own words how you are being forced to pay for crowns. Please, explain to me how it isn't optional.
The fact, and the only fact, is, no one. Not a single person. No one is forcing anyone to spend money on crowns or crown crates. Not once, not ever. Nothing in them is essential to play the game. Not once has anything in a crown crate been essential to play the game. It has never happened. They are optional. They are optional. Because, they are not essential and no one, ever, has been forced to purchase them. Sometimes, they even give them away for free. They provide pretty pixels that your character can wear or ride. Oh no! The horror. They are optional.
It's not optional, I heard a noise in my house the other night and I snuck into the living room only to discover a dark elf rifling through my wallet and at the same time my PS4 was fired up with the enter your credit card screen showing. Where in that was it optional?2 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Veinblood1965 wrote: »Carbonised wrote: »They are optional.
It's optional
It's only cosmetics
Please stop repeating the "it's optional" drivel.
Please, explain to me in your own words how you are being forced to pay for crowns. Please, explain to me how it isn't optional.
The fact, and the only fact, is, no one. Not a single person. No one is forcing anyone to spend money on crowns or crown crates. Not once, not ever. Nothing in them is essential to play the game. Not once has anything in a crown crate been essential to play the game. It has never happened. They are optional. They are optional. Because, they are not essential and no one, ever, has been forced to purchase them. Sometimes, they even give them away for free. They provide pretty pixels that your character can wear or ride. Oh no! The horror. They are optional.
It's not optional, I heard a noise in my house the other night and I snuck into the living room only to discover a dark elf rifling through my wallet and at the same time my PS4 was fired up with the enter your credit card screen showing. Where in that was it optional?
Yes, they are optional, and I say this as someone very into customizing my characters. Most of the mounts are not worth the price to me and nothing will induce me to buy Crown Crates because items are automatically unlocked whether you want them or not (no option to trade in, much less sell to another player) and I feel they are pushed on us too much as the only way to get stuff, which just makes me more stubborn.
People must take what steps are necessary to protect their own assets and, even more importantly, to impress upon their children what is right and wrong. I don’t say that as judgement; everyone has weaknesses and different lessons to learn, preferably while still young and the consequences not yet dire.1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, they are optional, and I say this as someone very into customizing my characters. Most of the mounts are not worth the price to me and nothing will induce me to buy Crown Crates because items are automatically unlocked whether you want them or not (no option to trade in, much less sell to another player) and I feel they are pushed on us too much as the only way to get stuff, which just makes me more stubborn.
People must take what steps are necessary to protect their own assets and, even more importantly, to impress upon their children what is right and wrong. I don’t say that as judgement; everyone has weaknesses and different lessons to learn, preferably while still young and the consequences not yet dire.
I get that you believe that they are not optional, but why should we have to protect ourselves, and our family, from the people who make the games that entertain us?3 -
Kalik_Gold✭✭✭✭✭
✭Once you start buying with in game gold. Doesn’t bother you that much.Main: (PvP & PvE)PS5/NA - Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar - Daggerfall Covenant • 1550+ Champion
Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar, the Vestige
PvP:
Aurik Siet'ka a Redguard Necromancer
Cacique the Sage of Ius a Redguard Warden
Jux Blackheart a Redguard Nightblade
Goliath of Hammerfell a Redguard Dragonknight
Kaotik Von Dae'mon a Redguard* Sorcerer
PvP: (Specialty)
Tyrus Septim an Imperial Lycan Sorcerer
Tsar af-Bomba a Redguard Vampiric Nightblade
Movárth Piquine a Nord Vampiric Necromancer
Uri Ice-Heart the Twin a Nord Vampiric Warden
PvE:
Cinan Tharn an Imperial Dragonknight
Bates Vesuius of Dawnstar an Imperial Dragonknight
Herzog Zwei the Genesis an Akavari* Templar
Tav'i at-Shinji a Redguard** Warden
Lucky Hunch the Gambler - a Redguard Nightblade
Leveling...
Zenovia at-Tura a Redguard** Sorcerer
Yesi af-Kalik a Redguard Templar
Voa a Priest of Sep a Redguard* Necromancer
======
Passives of another race used. (RP)
*Breton
**Imperial
__________________________Backstories:_________________________
Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard warrior; He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. Over many years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r.
Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from the undead zombies, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; was asked to assist the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting living enemies on the battlefield if he so desired. Goliath being a Yokudan warrior wields a massive sword in respect to the Ansei, a gift given by the Imperial, Cinan Tharn. Not many soldiers are able to wield double two handed weapons, but Goliath loves to get up and personal in a fight, so he also carries a giant maul, both weapons laced with magical flames.
Jux Blackheart is a master thief that masquerades as a Bard at the Sisters of the Sands inn, with his younger sidekick Lucky Hunch for pilfering and gambling during this time. Jux was known to infiltrate any towns bank vault he came across and even delved into Ayelid ruins without detection. Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the famed thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of his greed and the glimmer of his golden armor in the moonlight. He lost his left pinky fingertip as a lesson! But in return, he gained a new friend, as it was his first time since a child being caught red-handed...
Upon arrival back in the Alik'r after many moons of adventuring, Ras Kalik ventures to Bergama. Visiting The Winking Jackal, he runs into Jux Blackheart, who introduces him to the coin game Crowns vs Forebearers (Heads vs Tails) and Golden Dwemer (RBG).... Jux constantly takes gold from the unfortunate thru theft or gambling, his biggest gambling victim is actually his partner in crime known as Lucky Hunch the Gambler. Lucky doesn't mind losing any gold coins to Jux... as Jux saved him from Altmer slavers in Summerset, by stealing a key and sending him on a boat to the mainland years prior. Lucky spent years in slavery with Khajiits in Summerset and picked up the art of subterfuge, using illusion magic disguises and stealing there.
Kaotik Von’Daemon an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon caravan to be a soldier in the war in Cyrodiil. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r, during this long caravan ride the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.
The other men rescued were a Dunmer banker, an Imperial mercenary and two other soldiers, an Imperial and a Breton Knight, stating proudly he was an Akavir descendent. One of the Imperials, Cinan, claimed to be related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (One of Ras Kalik's mentors in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn was really Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son. He was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder of the two Imperials was Tyrus Septim a retired Imperial navy battle-mage (now a Lycan mercenary living in the city of Rimmen) and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son Cinan more. Tyrus now a ruffian and privateer had been paid by Abnur Tharn to watch over Cinan as much as possible. Cinan Tharn a drunkard, loves to drink at least a quarter barrel of Nord mead before he raids various delves and dungeons for relics to sell on the black market. Cinan also plans to one day, run an illegal gambling ring... which he thinks will net him more gold for his wares.
The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperial soldiers. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be an imprisoned servant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.
Herzog Zwei the Genesis a reknown Imperial/Akavirri battle-mage. His roots going back to Akavir through his mother’s bloodline. (His mother is descended from the Akaviri, through Versidue-Shae, and his Imperial father met her in Hakoshae, while traveling) Herzog earned the nickname "the Genesis" from his father as a child, as he was his mother's first born child, and last, as she tragically died in child-birth.
Herzog was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture and was meeting Tyrus while in Rimmen, who introduced him to Cinan. This artifact being the Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Akavir descendant really wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had read in scrolls that the Sword would give him magical powers to meet his mothers spirit, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure but Ras Kalik, did indeed notice the sword however and instead sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)
And so the Redguard, Imperial and Akaviri men parted ways ... While Ras Kalik went off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little did Ras Kalik know a few people were awaiting him in Senchal besides Sai. A necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, while in Alik'r. The necromancer known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits and Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (a Redguard God) and Ius (the Animal God), after being burned severely by the escaped dragons in Elsywer, is awaiting his arrival also. Aurik is a soldier of the Daggerfall Covenant that was introduced to necromancy while in the military, even though this magicka art is not spoken of openly by most of the Military leaders. He came to Alik'r and worked with the Withered Hand before Ras Kalik intervened on their plans. After the defeat of the Withered Hand, he aligned with the Worm Cult, and is constantly adapting and perfecting his necromantic arts.
After his journey to Rimmen, Kalik heads south to Senchal, in the southern regions of Elyswer. This new adventure will also put him on a path to meet a strange Redguard man. The stranger which was infected with an untreated Peyrite disease and also was the exiled from the Order of the New Moon cult, due to his sickness. He originally joined the cult to worship Laatvulon, the green dragon, mistakenly thinking it was the Daedric prince Peyrite. This confused and suffering cultist is known as Tsar al-Bomba and he is on a path to spread the disease. He was originally infected in Orccrest while recruiting members there. Can Ras Kalik and the shaman Cacique cure this poor soul, only time will tell. Little does Tsar al-Bomba know, that his infection is tied to Vampirism, and eventually the desire for blood will take over his mind. Senchal also offers Kalik his latest love interest... Aeliah. Whom he fondly led thru battles with the Dragonguard.
After the trek thru the heat, tropical and desert climate of Northern and Southern Elyswer, Ras Kalik heads north to the cold mountain range of Skyrim. His companion friend Lyris beckons for him with a letter sent by crow...
Movárth Piquine - a former vampire hunter (now infected), within the Fighter's Guild (and a secretive necromancer) was in Skyrim working with the Morthaal Guard. On a patrol mission he was caught in Frewien's ice curse outside of Morthaal with the frozen undead. Movárth's vampiric infection kept him from becoming an undead minion to the curse. He was able to use necromantic ice-magic to encase himself safely until he was freed with Freiwen, when the Vestige Ras Kalik broke the curse.
Uri Ice-Heart - brother of Urfon Ice-Heart. The twin sons of Atli and Oljourn Ice-Heart. The Ice-Heart family are originally from Markarth but now reside on the Jerall Mountain range near Cyrodiil, with their younger sister Araki. The twins had joined the Winterborn Reachmen while living in Markarth. Urfon pushed west to Orsinium with the Winterborn Clan, leaving his family behind. Uri stayed behind with his parents and sister to live in the family cabin for safety, avoiding the Vampire plague infiltrating the Reach. After news reaches him and he hears of Urfon's death... Uri leaves and heads home and is seeking vengeance. Meanwhile, his sister has also moved on to Windhelm to join the Fighter's guild. He will visit his sister, once before going to seek vengeance and she will craft him armor mixed with ice, called Stalhrim armor. Uri fearing death, after his brother's passing, falls victim to the convincing talk of Movárth at a Nordic tavern, and will also becomes a vampire.
{time moves forward through the hour-glass}1 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »MotokoHutt wrote: »The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.
I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.
You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.
If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.
Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.
I agree 100%. I will never call loot boxes “predatory” or anything else that implies I have no choice or will of my own. I do think some practices are in poor taste but no, it is hyperbolic to call things like loot boxes “criminal.”
I still leave my feedback, for whatever it may be worth, as well as voting with my wallet.
Thats like saying an Owl isnt predatory just cus the field mouse got a way. Regardless whether or not you boughtthe crown crates there still predatory, YOU dont get to pick if something preys on people or not, you just chose to get away from the predator if you can. I sware its comments like these that make me loose faith in the human race.
Wow. Okay, so there are people who are actually preyed on, deceived and worse. They don’t get a choice in the matter. Calling innocuous things like selling some silly thing in a game predatory diminishes people who have actually been preyed upon as well as people generally, implying we have no ability to control impulses and decide what is and isn’t worth our money.
It is comments like yours that make me lose faith in the human race.
It seems to me quite a privilege to live in a time and place that selling RNG virtual cosmetics can be considered predatory.
We're on a video game forum discussing methods of buying cosmetics. I think most of us understand that we're discussing1st World Problems, yeah?
So let's clarify what's meant by predatory.
When discussing Crown Crates and other Loot Boxes, the "predatory" part comes from the usage of the same tactics as gambling, namely, the way crown crates and other "gamble for what you want" mechanics play on and encourage the same addictive tendencies and human weaknesse that get people into trouble with actual gambling, which is one reason why most soceities have deemed it important to highly regulate actual gambling.
It's one of the reasons why its a big deal that Crown Crates and most other loot boxes aren't technically gambling under legal definitions. They don't fall under gambling regulations even though they use many of the same techniques. Legally, Crown Crates aren't treated as "predatory" in the same way that gambling is, even though they play on the same addictive behaviors and use many of the same techniques as actual gambling. For example, unlike my state lottery, ESO doesn't have to publish their official Crown Crate odds, so we have to rely on player-generated data instead.
That's also why there are a number of pushes to update those gambling laws to regulate loot boxes as well, or to push gaming companies to self-regulate before various legislatures do it for them. Its because loot boxes use many of the same techniques as gambling to fuel addictive tendencies, but are much less regulated, and consumers and lawmakers don't necessarily approve of companies using those techniques without regulation and oversight - especially not when some of those companies (not ESO) are marketing loot boxes to kids. (Gotta love the "think of the children" argument!)
Now, if you don't regard gambling as "predatory" because its completely optional, well, you probably won't agree that Crown Crates are "predatory" either. But hey, at least you know why they are called predatory, and why lots of people would like loot boxes to face greater regulations similar to actual gambling.
I do understand the psychology of it and believe that some companies do employ distasteful practices, but IMHO the law should only step in when deceit is employed. People have different psychological and physiological weaknesses, certainly. I have my own and do not judge anyone for theirs. But is it not better if we decide where to draw boundaries for ourselves and teach our children to do likewise? If I had stolen from my parents growing up not being allowed to play a video game further would have been only the beginning of the consequences I can assure you! What is the other option? Should governments, run by people no less fallible and corruptible than any who run corporations, I might add, draw the lines for us? How intrusive should they be? Is it not also human weakness to tend to eat too much, to like sweet things, to not exercise as we should, etc., etc.? Obesity and increasing diabetes are real problems, no? We could have a monitor a la 1984, making sure we do our daily exercise. I do not intend to be hyperbolic, but asking in turn where would you draw the line?Edited by Araneae6537 on October 14, 2019 8:21PM1 -
xTarrant✭Another one of these...
Great!!!
Just don't buy them. You might not have your shiny Apex mount. But you'll save some cash irl and still be able to play.
It's a choice that nobody is forcing you to make. Buy or don't buy it's up to you. If it's a rip-off (which they are) then don't. If you have disposable income then go for it.
Was I clear enough?
I don't think there's ever going to be an answer that satisfies either side here. But I think this "WELL JUST DONT BUY IT" mentality is destructive. I don't believe that any significant portion of the player base of any game is innately excited about a cash shop or microtransactions. They get sucked in by exclusives, and shiny cosmetics. And these are intentionally designed to be enticing. So "don't buy it" doesn't really work on a larger scale.
As someone who really just wants to play and support this game, I think it's incredibly fatiguing to pay a sub, buy expansions, and still be presented with a large amount of money gated cool stuff. As so many people have said before- putting this stuff into the cash shop takes away from meaningful game content and rewards. I don't think "just buy it through crown selling" is the answer either. Crowns are limited, not based on game content, and have inflated more than 100/per in the last 6 months.
The other major spam I see here in opposition is "WELL ZOS HAS TO MAKE MONEY." They do make money. And they made money before the gamble boxes too. I understand that the gamble boxes probably bring in huge binges of cash, and that's why they've expanded. It's honestly ridiculous that people who enjoy playing games are trying to find ways to defend this frankly predatory business practice.
I was able to defend the gambleboxes and the gems for myself for a while by considering crowns the reward for subbing. The game wants to reward people who support it, and some people have most things. Why should people not have something interesting to spend their sub crowns on? But I don't think I can defend it that way anymroe. Do the math. It doesn't matter if you're only interested in the boxes. You're looking at a max of 4 sets of crates per year with your sub, and given
-the low rates of anything meaningful
-you're not going to get many gems unless you spend your crowns on the same generation of crates
It's not defensible using that argument.
I'm not going to stop playing the game. I'm not an angry child. I'm not trying to tell people they're bad or good for spending or avoiding this.
I just think this is bad but popular business, and unhealthy for the game.
9 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »Yes, they are optional, and I say this as someone very into customizing my characters. Most of the mounts are not worth the price to me and nothing will induce me to buy Crown Crates because items are automatically unlocked whether you want them or not (no option to trade in, much less sell to another player) and I feel they are pushed on us too much as the only way to get stuff, which just makes me more stubborn.
People must take what steps are necessary to protect their own assets and, even more importantly, to impress upon their children what is right and wrong. I don’t say that as judgement; everyone has weaknesses and different lessons to learn, preferably while still young and the consequences not yet dire.
I get that you believe that they are not optional, but why should we have to protect ourselves, and our family, from the people who make the games that entertain us?
I agree that some of these practices are in poor taste (see my first post in this thread ) and from what I hear, other online games do far worse than ZOS (which isn’t a defense of them). However, there seems to me a deeper problem here that would be better addressed than attacking one of the manifestations or consequences. Are we, children included, not always wanting something? If we do not learn some restraint and evaluation (and more importantly, that it is wrong to steal) as children, when will we? I am sure there are more challenges now with the ease of buying things online with credit cards. I believe some games (and consoles?) have options to turn off spending real money in game and I fully support such measures both to make it easier for parents and also if one wishes to provide a check on one’s impulses.
I am not saying I think things are just fine as they currently are, but I do not know the best way to change. I do know that I prefer empowering people to make better choices rather than taking away options from everyone, but how can that be made to happen? And, even though they are optional, I do not like that options to obtain many things in ESO seem to be increasingly monetized. I would like to see more mounts available in-game and certainly not locked behind buying a mountain of RNG boxes.
2 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »The line won't be drawn until more and more gamers realize they are being exploited and taken advantage of by this "games as service" rubbish which would be more accurately be described as "play to pay." This game is beyond saving. They will not turn around and improve their monetization model. The only solution at this point is to stop playing to pay.
Never gonna happen.
Obviously, the studios do not think they are doing anything wrong. It does not matter whether 90% of the players ignore monetization as long as the studio caters to and nurtures the top spenders. When the studio can do that, they are justified in their thinking. The monetization methods stay, and improve to better service those who are paying.
Meanwhile, the rest of us get to suffer through a reduction in what is considered "part of the game" so that the studio can monetize it by pulling that part out, putting an additional price tag on it, and labeling it as "cosmetic" and "optional". For many people, those cosmetic items were the reason for buying the game in the first place, and now they have to pay extra for something they once considered part of the game.
The person I quote below totally gets what I want in a game. I want games where they aren't ransacking things that could be in the game so that they can monetize them. At best, I have to pay extra. At worst, this stuff is crammed into a loot box system. I don't care if it is cosmetic, or "optional", it used to be part of the game. For more and more games, now it is not. Worse, because this is where the studio makes the money, this is where they focus efforts.Players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.
Two years ago when I played and posted here, you and I saw eye to eye on many things.
I left the game due to bad montetization and what felt like them constantly digging into my pockets.
I came back two months ago, you and have had some less than stellar back and forth (sadly).
That being said. Your post is spot on! (although I disagree where studios think they are doing nothing wrong...anyone who is human and not a serial killer should be able to see how the current approach to game monetization is appalling).
+1
EDIT:
I would bet that secretly, in private thoughts most of the devs (if not all) also see the issue...but we all know what happens when you question your boss or company direction (you suddenly find yourself out of employment, and everyone has bills). Sadly the good creative minds who could make ESO the best MMO to ever exist are subject to the desires of the CEO and private share holders.Edited by Raideen on October 14, 2019 8:01PM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »MotokoHutt wrote: »The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.
I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.
You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.
If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.
Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.
I agree 100%. I will never call loot boxes “predatory” or anything else that implies I have no choice or will of my own. I do think some practices are in poor taste but no, it is hyperbolic to call things like loot boxes “criminal.”
I still leave my feedback, for whatever it may be worth, as well as voting with my wallet.
Thats like saying an Owl isnt predatory just cus the field mouse got a way. Regardless whether or not you boughtthe crown crates there still predatory, YOU dont get to pick if something preys on people or not, you just chose to get away from the predator if you can. I sware its comments like these that make me loose faith in the human race.
Wow. Okay, so there are people who are actually preyed on, deceived and worse. They don’t get a choice in the matter. Calling innocuous things like selling some silly thing in a game predatory diminishes people who have actually been preyed upon as well as people generally, implying we have no ability to control impulses and decide what is and isn’t worth our money.
It is comments like yours that make me lose faith in the human race.
It seems to me quite a privilege to live in a time and place that selling RNG virtual cosmetics can be considered predatory.
We're on a video game forum discussing methods of buying cosmetics. I think most of us understand that we're discussing1st World Problems, yeah?
So let's clarify what's meant by predatory.
When discussing Crown Crates and other Loot Boxes, the "predatory" part comes from the usage of the same tactics as gambling, namely, the way crown crates and other "gamble for what you want" mechanics play on and encourage the same addictive tendencies and human weaknesse that get people into trouble with actual gambling, which is one reason why most soceities have deemed it important to highly regulate actual gambling.
It's one of the reasons why its a big deal that Crown Crates and most other loot boxes aren't technically gambling under legal definitions. They don't fall under gambling regulations even though they use many of the same techniques. Legally, Crown Crates aren't treated as "predatory" in the same way that gambling is, even though they play on the same addictive behaviors and use many of the same techniques as actual gambling. For example, unlike my state lottery, ESO doesn't have to publish their official Crown Crate odds, so we have to rely on player-generated data instead.
That's also why there are a number of pushes to update those gambling laws to regulate loot boxes as well, or to push gaming companies to self-regulate before various legislatures do it for them. Its because loot boxes use many of the same techniques as gambling to fuel addictive tendencies, but are much less regulated, and consumers and lawmakers don't necessarily approve of companies using those techniques without regulation and oversight - especially not when some of those companies (not ESO) are marketing loot boxes to kids. (Gotta love the "think of the children" argument!)
Now, if you don't regard gambling as "predatory" because its completely optional, well, you probably won't agree that Crown Crates are "predatory" either. But hey, at least you know why they are called predatory, and why lots of people would like loot boxes to face greater regulations similar to actual gambling.
I appreciate your rational reply. I felt your first post went too far in equating enticements or however we should call them with actual predation. But I detracted from my own argument by implying there are not worse problems even in the “first world.”
In any case, I do understand the psychology of it and believe that some companies do employ distasteful practices, but IMHO the law should only step in when deceit is employed. People have different psychological and physiological weaknesses, certainly. I have my own and do not judge anyone for theirs. But is it not better if we decide where to draw boundaries for ourselves and teach our children to do likewise? If I had stolen from my parents growing up not being allowed to play a video game further would have been only the beginning of the consequences I can assure you! What is the other option? Should governments, run by people no less fallible and corruptible than any who run corporations, I might add, draw the lines for us? How intrusive should they be? Is it not also human weakness to tend to eat too much, to like sweet things, to not exercise as we should, etc., etc.? Obesity and increasing diabetes are real problems, no? We could have a monitor a la 1984, making sure we do our daily exercise. I do not intend to be hyperbolic, but asking in turn where would you draw the line?
First off, I suspect you mixed me up with someone earlier in that conversation thread. That's fine - I only popped in to explain the predatory/gambling connection since I didnt think anyone had properly explained that argument yet.
Personally, I already stated my line in the sand. I'm not spending money on RNG crates. Ever.
On the other hand, this "but people have to be responsible or we're headed towards dystopia" handwringing is seriously missing the point.
RNG Crates suck. Unregulated RNG crates really suck.
You want players to show some responsibility?
Okay. Now, how about asking the Gaming Companies (in general, because this is a bigger issue than ESO) to self-regulate? To be transparent about the terrible odds on their loot crates? To refrain from giving rigged crates to their influencers? To not put Pay-To-Win stuff in loot crates? To not market their "it's-basically-gambling" loot crates to children?
Responsibility. Its not just for players. Its for game companies too.
If game companies weren't showing themselves to be completely scummy in their implementation of loot crates, there wouldn't be a large push to regulate them through laws. Game companies have a choice - take responsibility and regulate yourselves, or eventually governments are going to do it for the whole industry.
Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are smart enough to see the writing on the wall, smart enough to start self-regulating because of the PR pressure. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/296293-sony-microsoft-and-nintendo-will-require-loot-box-drop-rate-disclosures
So frankly, I find the argument of "personal responsibility" to be lacking. Sure, players should take responsibility. So should gaming companies! History is filled with examples of corporations who happily ducked their responsibility until people stood up and made them behave ethically. I'd rather that gaming companies self-regulated, but if they don't self-regulate and clean up their act, I won't weep for them when legislatures start doing it for them.Edited by VaranisArano on October 14, 2019 8:00PM1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MotokoHutt wrote: »The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.
I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.
You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.
If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.
Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.
I agree 100%. I will never call loot boxes “predatory” or anything else that implies I have no choice or will of my own. I do think some practices are in poor taste but no, it is hyperbolic to call things like loot boxes “criminal.”
I still leave my feedback, for whatever it may be worth, as well as voting with my wallet.
Thats like saying an Owl isnt predatory just cus the field mouse got a way. Regardless whether or not you boughtthe crown crates there still predatory, YOU dont get to pick if something preys on people or not, you just chose to get away from the predator if you can. I sware its comments like these that make me loose faith in the human race.
Wow. Okay, so there are people who are actually preyed on, deceived and worse. They don’t get a choice in the matter. Calling innocuous things like selling some silly thing in a game predatory diminishes people who have actually been preyed upon as well as people generally, implying we have no ability to control impulses and decide what is and isn’t worth our money.
It is comments like yours that make me lose faith in the human race.
It seems to me quite a privilege to live in a time and place that selling RNG virtual cosmetics can be considered predatory.
We're on a video game forum discussing methods of buying cosmetics. I think most of us understand that we're discussing1st World Problems, yeah?
So let's clarify what's meant by predatory.
When discussing Crown Crates and other Loot Boxes, the "predatory" part comes from the usage of the same tactics as gambling, namely, the way crown crates and other "gamble for what you want" mechanics play on and encourage the same addictive tendencies and human weaknesse that get people into trouble with actual gambling, which is one reason why most soceities have deemed it important to highly regulate actual gambling.
It's one of the reasons why its a big deal that Crown Crates and most other loot boxes aren't technically gambling under legal definitions. They don't fall under gambling regulations even though they use many of the same techniques. Legally, Crown Crates aren't treated as "predatory" in the same way that gambling is, even though they play on the same addictive behaviors and use many of the same techniques as actual gambling. For example, unlike my state lottery, ESO doesn't have to publish their official Crown Crate odds, so we have to rely on player-generated data instead.
That's also why there are a number of pushes to update those gambling laws to regulate loot boxes as well, or to push gaming companies to self-regulate before various legislatures do it for them. Its because loot boxes use many of the same techniques as gambling to fuel addictive tendencies, but are much less regulated, and consumers and lawmakers don't necessarily approve of companies using those techniques without regulation and oversight - especially not when some of those companies (not ESO) are marketing loot boxes to kids. (Gotta love the "think of the children" argument!)
Now, if you don't regard gambling as "predatory" because its completely optional, well, you probably won't agree that Crown Crates are "predatory" either. But hey, at least you know why they are called predatory, and why lots of people would like loot boxes to face greater regulations similar to actual gambling.
I appreciate your rational reply. I felt your first post went too far in equating enticements or however we should call them with actual predation. But I detracted from my own argument by implying there are not worse problems even in the “first world.”
In any case, I do understand the psychology of it and believe that some companies do employ distasteful practices, but IMHO the law should only step in when deceit is employed. People have different psychological and physiological weaknesses, certainly. I have my own and do not judge anyone for theirs. But is it not better if we decide where to draw boundaries for ourselves and teach our children to do likewise? If I had stolen from my parents growing up not being allowed to play a video game further would have been only the beginning of the consequences I can assure you! What is the other option? Should governments, run by people no less fallible and corruptible than any who run corporations, I might add, draw the lines for us? How intrusive should they be? Is it not also human weakness to tend to eat too much, to like sweet things, to not exercise as we should, etc., etc.? Obesity and increasing diabetes are real problems, no? We could have a monitor a la 1984, making sure we do our daily exercise. I do not intend to be hyperbolic, but asking in turn where would you draw the line?
First off, I suspect you mixed me up with someone earlier in that conversation thread. That's fine - I only popped in to explain the predatory/gambling connection since I didnt think anyone had properly explained that argument yet.
Personally, I already stated my line in the sand. I'm not spending money on RNG crates. Ever.
On the other hand, this "but people have to be responsible or we're headed towards dystopia" handwringing is seriously missing the point.
RNG Crates suck. Unregulated RNG crates really suck.
You want players to show some responsibility?
Okay. Now, how about asking the Gaming Companies (in general, because this is a bigger issue than ESO) to self-regulate? To be transparent about the terrible odds on their loot crates? To refrain from giving rigged crates to their influencers? To not put Pay-To-Win stuff in loot crates? To not market their "it's-basically-gambling" loot crates to children?
Responsibility. Its not just for players. Its for game companies too.
If game companies weren't showing themselves to be completely scummy in their implementation of loot crates, there wouldn't be a large push to regulate them through laws. Game companies have a choice - take responsibility and regulate yourselves, or eventually governments are going to do it for the whole industry.
Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are smart enough to see the writing on the wall, smart enough to start self-regulating because of the PR pressure. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/296293-sony-microsoft-and-nintendo-will-require-loot-box-drop-rate-disclosures
So frankly, I find the argument of "personal responsibility" to be lacking. Sure, players should take responsibility. So should gaming companies! History is filled with examples of corporations who happily ducked their responsibility until people stood up and made them behave ethically. I'd rather that gaming companies self-regulated, but if they don't self-regulate and clean up their act, I won't weep for them when legislatures start doing it for them.
Well said, well said!
The subject is also much deeper than can really be expressed on forums because it involves abusing human psychology.
I believe WOW had 20 psychologists hired to make the game addictive during its development. Although everyone has some ability to take personal responsibility, its also the companies responsibility to treat their customers with respect and value them.
The current trend in many games (I would argue this one) is to make as much money as they can off a person until that person gets sick, and moves on...only so they can prey on the next person.
The devs may see value in their customers/players, but I highly doubt marketing does. Once someone has spent their life savings on crowns to get all the shiny goodies, they are not going to spend much more. NEXT CUSTOMER PLEASE!2 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MotokoHutt wrote: »The only place to draw the line is if they start reaching into your bank account and forcing you to spend money on the crates. They are optional.
I have to pay for water every month. A regulated by the government necessity. Sometimes, I want to treat myself and I buy flavored or sparkling water that costs much much more than the extremely cheap water that comes out of my faucet.
You know what's great? The more expensive options are just that optional.
If you think the crown store items are overpriced, don't buy them. Smart people don't spend money on things they deem over priced. You know what happens in a market when people aren't buying things? The seller lowers prices or offers discounts. Smart consumers spend their money smartly. Be a smart consumer. Complaining about prices on the forums, acting like you are being scammed, or being otherwise derogatory over the crown store is infantile. Especially when the thing being complained about is 100% optional.
Like, movie theater concessions are expensive. But you know what? When I walk into the theater to see a movie I can walk right past the concessions and go straight to the movie. No one is ushering me into a line to buy overpriced popcorn. It's there if I want it. And if enough people don't want it, maybe they lower the prices.
I agree 100%. I will never call loot boxes “predatory” or anything else that implies I have no choice or will of my own. I do think some practices are in poor taste but no, it is hyperbolic to call things like loot boxes “criminal.”
I still leave my feedback, for whatever it may be worth, as well as voting with my wallet.
Thats like saying an Owl isnt predatory just cus the field mouse got a way. Regardless whether or not you boughtthe crown crates there still predatory, YOU dont get to pick if something preys on people or not, you just chose to get away from the predator if you can. I sware its comments like these that make me loose faith in the human race.
Wow. Okay, so there are people who are actually preyed on, deceived and worse. They don’t get a choice in the matter. Calling innocuous things like selling some silly thing in a game predatory diminishes people who have actually been preyed upon as well as people generally, implying we have no ability to control impulses and decide what is and isn’t worth our money.
It is comments like yours that make me lose faith in the human race.
It seems to me quite a privilege to live in a time and place that selling RNG virtual cosmetics can be considered predatory.
We're on a video game forum discussing methods of buying cosmetics. I think most of us understand that we're discussing1st World Problems, yeah?
So let's clarify what's meant by predatory.
When discussing Crown Crates and other Loot Boxes, the "predatory" part comes from the usage of the same tactics as gambling, namely, the way crown crates and other "gamble for what you want" mechanics play on and encourage the same addictive tendencies and human weaknesse that get people into trouble with actual gambling, which is one reason why most soceities have deemed it important to highly regulate actual gambling.
It's one of the reasons why its a big deal that Crown Crates and most other loot boxes aren't technically gambling under legal definitions. They don't fall under gambling regulations even though they use many of the same techniques. Legally, Crown Crates aren't treated as "predatory" in the same way that gambling is, even though they play on the same addictive behaviors and use many of the same techniques as actual gambling. For example, unlike my state lottery, ESO doesn't have to publish their official Crown Crate odds, so we have to rely on player-generated data instead.
That's also why there are a number of pushes to update those gambling laws to regulate loot boxes as well, or to push gaming companies to self-regulate before various legislatures do it for them. Its because loot boxes use many of the same techniques as gambling to fuel addictive tendencies, but are much less regulated, and consumers and lawmakers don't necessarily approve of companies using those techniques without regulation and oversight - especially not when some of those companies (not ESO) are marketing loot boxes to kids. (Gotta love the "think of the children" argument!)
Now, if you don't regard gambling as "predatory" because its completely optional, well, you probably won't agree that Crown Crates are "predatory" either. But hey, at least you know why they are called predatory, and why lots of people would like loot boxes to face greater regulations similar to actual gambling.
I appreciate your rational reply. I felt your first post went too far in equating enticements or however we should call them with actual predation. But I detracted from my own argument by implying there are not worse problems even in the “first world.”
In any case, I do understand the psychology of it and believe that some companies do employ distasteful practices, but IMHO the law should only step in when deceit is employed. People have different psychological and physiological weaknesses, certainly. I have my own and do not judge anyone for theirs. But is it not better if we decide where to draw boundaries for ourselves and teach our children to do likewise? If I had stolen from my parents growing up not being allowed to play a video game further would have been only the beginning of the consequences I can assure you! What is the other option? Should governments, run by people no less fallible and corruptible than any who run corporations, I might add, draw the lines for us? How intrusive should they be? Is it not also human weakness to tend to eat too much, to like sweet things, to not exercise as we should, etc., etc.? Obesity and increasing diabetes are real problems, no? We could have a monitor a la 1984, making sure we do our daily exercise. I do not intend to be hyperbolic, but asking in turn where would you draw the line?
First off, I suspect you mixed me up with someone earlier in that conversation thread. That's fine - I only popped in to explain the predatory/gambling connection since I didnt think anyone had properly explained that argument yet.
Personally, I already stated my line in the sand. I'm not spending money on RNG crates. Ever.
On the other hand, this "but people have to be responsible or we're headed towards dystopia" handwringing is seriously missing the point.
RNG Crates suck. Unregulated RNG crates really suck.
You want players to show some responsibility?
Okay. Now, how about asking the Gaming Companies (in general, because this is a bigger issue than ESO) to self-regulate? To be transparent about the terrible odds on their loot crates? To refrain from giving rigged crates to their influencers? To not put Pay-To-Win stuff in loot crates? To not market their "it's-basically-gambling" loot crates to children?
Responsibility. Its not just for players. Its for game companies too.
If game companies weren't showing themselves to be completely scummy in their implementation of loot crates, there wouldn't be a large push to regulate them through laws. Game companies have a choice - take responsibility and regulate yourselves, or eventually governments are going to do it for the whole industry.
Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are smart enough to see the writing on the wall, smart enough to start self-regulating because of the PR pressure. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/296293-sony-microsoft-and-nintendo-will-require-loot-box-drop-rate-disclosures
So frankly, I find the argument of "personal responsibility" to be lacking. Sure, players should take responsibility. So should gaming companies! History is filled with examples of corporations who happily ducked their responsibility until people stood up and made them behave ethically. I'd rather that gaming companies self-regulated, but if they don't self-regulate and clean up their act, I won't weep for them when legislatures start doing it for them.
I agree with most of that, certainly! Customers should have accurate information at least. And I wish that the negative response to these latest exorbitant Gem-exclusives would motivate ZOS to better practices, but I guess it makes them enough money? Does whatever percentage buy enough that it’s worth it to ZOS to cut out those of us who don’t buy RNG crates? That is boggling... and unfortunate.
And my apologies for confusing you with a previous poster! I should have thought to check instead of wondering that the person I had originally replied to had replied with a much more rational reply!
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