We'll Never Allow This Game to be Balanced AND Fun

Ksariyu

Without a doubt, every single thread I see that tries to address class identity and balance falls into one of two categories. Either they feel that each class should be statistically balanced around a single playstyle with only one gear setup (Also known as what we have on live. . . zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz), or that each class should have a specific role it fills and pretty much all the other skill lines should be taken out of the game.

Now, I won't say I agree with all the changes so far, and I can't say that the transparency from the devs has been stellar in regards to what their end goal is. But if as a playerbase we refuse to even CONSIDER alternative outcomes to these changes, and perhaps be more open to accepting that the way we play might have to change a bit, then there's no point in even patching the game anymore. Just revert it to Elsweyr, put the servers in maintenance mode and move on.

I, for one, would very much like to hear in more detail what the devs have envisioned for the post-audit gameplay, and also more of what other players would like to see overall, not just specific to this one patch. But we have to realize that the game isn't going to become perfect overnight, and that maybe it's more worth it to take a break and see how things pan out over the next few months rather than flaming the forums all day because your perfect idea of the game isn't in the patch notes.

VaranisArano

Since One Tamriel, "balance" in ESO has been based around Horizontal Progression, briefly summarized as "constant minor and/or major changes so it doesn't feel like the game is stagnating even though you aren't leveling up anymore."

Until ZOS moves away from Horizontal Progression, any sort of "balance" is ultimately temporary until the next time they shake the snowglobe to make the game seem fresh.

I'll be very surprised if ZOS ever hits a "perfect" balance and lets it stick around for more than an update or two as long as this game is being actively worked on.

Rehdaun

Where is this transparency? Is it them saying "we heard you and we think cast times slow down combat" one patch then imposing cast times on ults the next? Or is it the other times where they completely lie to us in some rah rah forum post only to contradict themselves 3 months later?

Totally agree that the game won't become perfect overnight, but we have to see some progress other than this yo-yo, shoot at a dart board approach they have right now where everything changes every 3 months.

SipofMaim

We don't allow the game to be anything. ZOS is going to do what ZOS is going to do.

People focusing on numerical differences between equivalent class abilities are using the terminology and concepts the devs have given us. They brought this down by decreeing all abilities must fit in certain categories, and all abilities in each category shall be equal to all the others. Every class will have a burst heal, a group heal, a self-heal for tanks, and they will all be equally good but in their own special class-specific way, because that's what "play the way you want" means.

So that's the feedback they're going to get. Of course it is. (And this is a PTS cycle, theoretically they want our feedback.) That's what they've said they're going to focus on and do, so everybody's elbowing to make sure they don't get shorted, since we're all LOSING things to gain this homogeneity. We didn't choose the great simplification: they did.

I too would love to hear what they have in mind going forward, because I'm honestly pretty alarmed about the narrowing of choices, particularly for magicka specs since they have only one weapon. They don't want to share, yet. We'll find out eventually, they'll tell us more some day. As for what we have in mind? It doesn't much matter. We don't know the roadmap. We're going wherever they're taking us.

So what can we do. Focus on numerical minutia and the new standards. Commiserate about the bumpy ride.

LiquidPony

Ksariyu wrote: »

Now, I won't say I agree with all the changes so far, and I can't say that the transparency from the devs has been stellar in regards to what their end goal is.

Can you briefly summarize what their "end goal" is?

kalunte

As far as i can see there are many viable build in both pvp and pve, and even if some skills are more used than others there not everyone is cloning each other like some ppl on this forum says.

At this point, the game looks somehow balanced.

i'm talking about actual pvp/pve, not 1v1 pvp, not 1vX around rocks or in towers overexploiting game's latency issues, not dummy smashing.

Lucky28

VaranisArano wrote: »

Since One Tamriel, "balance" in ESO has been based around Horizontal Progression, briefly summarized as "constant minor and/or major changes so it doesn't feel like the game is stagnating even though you aren't leveling up anymore."

Until ZOS moves away from Horizontal Progression, any sort of "balance" is ultimately temporary until the next time they shake the snowglobe to make the game seem fresh.

I'll be very surprised if ZOS ever hits a "perfect" balance and lets it stick around for more than an update or two as long as this game is being actively worked on.

this is true. between 1.6 and homestead the game had reached a point of "almost being balanced" Morrowind was where *** just started to go down hill fast.

JinMori

Lucky28 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Since One Tamriel, "balance" in ESO has been based around Horizontal Progression, briefly summarized as "constant minor and/or major changes so it doesn't feel like the game is stagnating even though you aren't leveling up anymore."

Until ZOS moves away from Horizontal Progression, any sort of "balance" is ultimately temporary until the next time they shake the snowglobe to make the game seem fresh.

I'll be very surprised if ZOS ever hits a "perfect" balance and lets it stick around for more than an update or two as long as this game is being actively worked on.

this is true. between 1.6 and homestead the game had reached a point of "almost being balanced" Morrowind was where *** just started to go down hill fast.

Morrowind was the turning point for the worse to me, when they started to nerf sustain i knew this game was gonna go down the drain in a few years, they seemed to have done a nice job in elsweyr, but then they dropped 2 absolutely trash patches back to back.

Ksariyu

VaranisArano wrote: »

Since One Tamriel, "balance" in ESO has been based around Horizontal Progression, briefly summarized as "constant minor and/or major changes so it doesn't feel like the game is stagnating even though you aren't leveling up anymore."

Unfortunately you're right that this has been the case, and is definitely something that should be addressed in the near future. Personally, I think some more competitive elements would help give players that feeling of progression without necessarily needing to constantly increase level caps. But we'll see.

SipofMaim wrote: »

We don't allow the game to be anything. ZOS is going to do what ZOS is going to do.

While yes, ZOS has the final say in exactly what gets put into the game, we can't honestly argue that they've never added or changed something in response to player's ideas. Case in point, two responses here say that Homestead-Morrowind was the most balanced the game was, yet they drastically changed it, and I can't imagine that was because everyone was so happy with it at the time. Also worth noting is that Sorcs have, since day one, been the target of countless "OP plz nerf" threads, which I really think just showcases how players will never be content with any changes made.

kalunte wrote: »

As far as i can see there are many viable build in both pvp and pve, and even if some skills are more used than others there not everyone is cloning each other like some ppl on this forum says.

It's true that there are many "viable" builds out there. Really, most of the content outside of vet DLC stuff isn't particularly demanding in terms of stats. The problem is that the gap between what's even "decent" in harder content compared to what's "optimized" is so large, and that's where we start seeing more of the "clone builds." I won't presume to speak for every player, but I don't know if I've ever seen a parse come through my guilds' discords that didn't have a bow or two flame staffs.

And to the people mentioning transparency: Note the original post says the devs have NOT been great about transparency, and that's something I'd like to see change.

SipofMaim

Ksariyu wrote: »

SipofMaim wrote: »

We don't allow the game to be anything. ZOS is going to do what ZOS is going to do.

While yes, ZOS has the final say in exactly what gets put into the game, we can't honestly argue that they've never added or changed something in response to player's ideas. Case in point, two responses here say that Homestead-Morrowind was the most balanced the game was, yet they drastically changed it, and I can't imagine that was because everyone was so happy with it at the time. Also worth noting is that Sorcs have, since day one, been the target of countless "OP plz nerf" threads, which I really think just showcases how players will never be content with any changes made.

Morrowind's big feature was a gigantic nerf to everybody's sustain. Other than the usual handful of people complaining that everything is just too easy for their amazingness, nobody wanted that change. It was a mountain of suck. Entire guilds left the game, and PVP became the ghost town it still is despite lowering the population cap.

That's a great patch to illustrate my point. They didn't do that because we asked them to. They did it because they thought it should be done.

The complaining never really ends, you're right. There's no state of community-wide contentment we're going to get. I don't think that has much impact. Requested feedback and bug testing don't even have much impact.

TheNightflame

which is why we quit

all zos needs are the rp-ers

KingExecration

JinMori wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Since One Tamriel, "balance" in ESO has been based around Horizontal Progression, briefly summarized as "constant minor and/or major changes so it doesn't feel like the game is stagnating even though you aren't leveling up anymore."

Until ZOS moves away from Horizontal Progression, any sort of "balance" is ultimately temporary until the next time they shake the snowglobe to make the game seem fresh.

I'll be very surprised if ZOS ever hits a "perfect" balance and lets it stick around for more than an update or two as long as this game is being actively worked on.

this is true. between 1.6 and homestead the game had reached a point of "almost being balanced" Morrowind was where *** just started to go down hill fast.

Morrowind was the turning point for the worse to me, when they started to nerf sustain i knew this game was gonna go down the drain in a few years, they seemed to have done a nice job in elsweyr, but then they dropped 2 absolutely trash patches back to back.

I noticed the biggest decline in player population after morrowind dropped. People said they’d bounce back but campaign and areas didn’t fill up the same.
The excuse was people was grinding the new class which was partially true. After that update Xbox NA felt like a bucket of water that has a hole in it.

JinMori

KingExecration wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Since One Tamriel, "balance" in ESO has been based around Horizontal Progression, briefly summarized as "constant minor and/or major changes so it doesn't feel like the game is stagnating even though you aren't leveling up anymore."

Until ZOS moves away from Horizontal Progression, any sort of "balance" is ultimately temporary until the next time they shake the snowglobe to make the game seem fresh.

I'll be very surprised if ZOS ever hits a "perfect" balance and lets it stick around for more than an update or two as long as this game is being actively worked on.

this is true. between 1.6 and homestead the game had reached a point of "almost being balanced" Morrowind was where *** just started to go down hill fast.

Morrowind was the turning point for the worse to me, when they started to nerf sustain i knew this game was gonna go down the drain in a few years, they seemed to have done a nice job in elsweyr, but then they dropped 2 absolutely trash patches back to back.

I noticed the biggest decline in player population after morrowind dropped. People said they’d bounce back but campaign and areas didn’t fill up the same.
The excuse was people was grinding the new class which was partially true. After that update Xbox NA felt like a bucket of water that has a hole in it.

Ah don't worry, people are just gonna point out that the game has more players than ever because they said that they now have 12 million registered accounts, or something like that....

Lol, registered accounts, how many are actually playing though? That i think much less than one tamriel.

Shantu

I'm just another bean on a hill, but one thing I can definitely point to as true is since this nerf-a-rama began several patches ago, my enthusiasm has slowly ebbed away. My playing time amounts to about 10-15% of what i was before all this started. The combat changes in this patch give me little hope or reason to think that trend will reverse itself.

This dev team has become a sad and unfortunate parody of what it should be. They've become a mockery to almost anyone you talk to about game changes to combat. Imagine, if you will, a dev patch that actually empowers players with creative combat options instead of this insidious drag of skill nerfs, increased costs, decreased sustain, character rebuilding, etc. Now it's a fact that you can never please everybody, and that should never be the goal. But when players both in game and in the forums indicate these changes to are pleasing essentially NO ONE, perhaps consideration should be given to the idea that the strategy isn't working. If the end result of the goals is a dramatic decrease in enthusiasm, then we all lose.

I do regret the cynicism, but cramming game play into the sum zero (balance) of mathematical structures, indicates a rigid and unyielding mindset and a disturbing lack of creativity. It's simply hard to visualize these changes resulting a long and prosperous future for anyone involved.

Nordic__Knights

SipofMaim wrote: »

We don't allow the game to be anything. ZOS is going to do what ZOS is going to do.

People focusing on numerical differences between equivalent class abilities are using the terminology and concepts the devs have given us. They brought this down by decreeing all abilities must fit in certain categories, and all abilities in each category shall be equal to all the others. Every class will have a burst heal, a group heal, a self-heal for tanks, and they will all be equally good but in their own special class-specific way, because that's what "play the way you want" means.

So that's the feedback they're going to get. Of course it is. (And this is a PTS cycle, theoretically they want our feedback.) That's what they've said they're going to focus on and do, so everybody's elbowing to make sure they don't get shorted, since we're all LOSING things to gain this homogeneity. We didn't choose the great simplification: they did.

I too would love to hear what they have in mind going forward, because I'm honestly pretty alarmed about the narrowing of choices, particularly for magicka specs since they have only one weapon. They don't want to share, yet. We'll find out eventually, they'll tell us more some day. As for what we have in mind? It doesn't much matter. We don't know the roadmap. We're going wherever they're taking us.

So what can we do. Focus on numerical minutia and the new standards. Commiserate about the bumpy ride.

Ever take into mind that skill lines fit magic better then stam and had they made necromancer an skill line not an class you'd even have more to work with
Necromancer doesn't even fit as an class as in the main quest line of game all classes has to use necromancy to move forward in quest and that 1 of the 5 Champions is an Imperial necromancer , then take the fact that in elsywer the main necromancer is an Khajiit so how does it fit as an class ?

BigBragg

Realistically balance is always a moving target, and gamers know this. The problem lies in the myriad of approaches that have been applied in going after that. It has left much of the community feeling like they are being pulled in multiple directions. I personally feel like the amount of work it takes to keep up with a game I truly enjoy is just become less and less rewarding. We all want yet have different ideas on how to get there. It's the responsibility of ZOS to take this ocean of feedback and navigate the ship in the right direction. Right now it feels like Captain Ahab is at the helm, and everything else be damned.

hakan

VaranisArano wrote: »

Since One Tamriel, "balance" in ESO has been based around Horizontal Progression, briefly summarized as "constant minor and/or major changes so it doesn't feel like the game is stagnating even though you aren't leveling up anymore."

Until ZOS moves away from Horizontal Progression, any sort of "balance" is ultimately temporary until the next time they shake the snowglobe to make the game seem fresh.

I'll be very surprised if ZOS ever hits a "perfect" balance and lets it stick around for more than an update or two as long as this game is being actively worked on.

no. i love it being horizontal. since other games have the same issue, i dont think it is about being horizontal or anything.

a lot of games i see/hear does the same thingz i guess thats what happens when they change developers or hire people who doesnt know ***.

constantly changing just for sake of changing is dumb.

Shantu

I don't care about the balance. It's become more of a buzz word excuse for making changes nobody understands. However, preserving a little fun would be nice though.

nafensoriel

Ksariyu wrote: »

Without a doubt, every single thread I see that tries to address class identity and balance falls into one of two categories. Either they feel that each class should be statistically balanced around a single playstyle with only one gear setup (Also known as what we have on live. . . zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz), or that each class should have a specific role it fills and pretty much all the other skill lines should be taken out of the game.

Now, I won't say I agree with all the changes so far, and I can't say that the transparency from the devs has been stellar in regards to what their end goal is. But if as a playerbase we refuse to even CONSIDER alternative outcomes to these changes, and perhaps be more open to accepting that the way we play might have to change a bit, then there's no point in even patching the game anymore. Just revert it to Elsweyr, put the servers in maintenance mode and move on.

I, for one, would very much like to hear in more detail what the devs have envisioned for the post-audit gameplay, and also more of what other players would like to see overall, not just specific to this one patch. But we have to realize that the game isn't going to become perfect overnight, and that maybe it's more worth it to take a break and see how things pan out over the next few months rather than flaming the forums all day because your perfect idea of the game isn't in the patch notes.

Fun fact. Perfectly balanced games are dead because perfectly balanced games are no longer in development.

Miraslova

Witar

We? What does it have to do with us? Zos never listens to the playerbase. They don't even listen to the representatives, lol.

Master_Kas

Before CP system was added every class was more fun