Swallow Soul - help me understand

Juhasow

teladoy wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

You use the skill as part of a rotation. You don't just spam the skill, so you will see more heals then you think.

Wait... Are you really saying this skill is not intended to be a spameable? I dare to any developer to come here and confirm that!

A part of rotation? You really think that a skill that can be a part of a rotation can do one time damage and then heal over time??? There is already in the resto skill line another skill that heals a lot more! What is the difference? Some damage at the beginning? Really?

I think what You're saying is huge assumption on Your side based on Your tunel visioned idea of what spammable ability should or shouldnt be.

If something is called spammable ability that doesnt mean You have to spam it 100% of a time. Most of the time if You want to get the most out of Your class You will use it maybe 20-30% of a time inbetween other abilities in both PvE and PvP. Swallow soul also when spammed heals You faster then when You let if to heal You with a HoT because interval of HoT heal is 2 seconds but when You spam it You'll get the heal every recast which is every 1 second.

Juhasow

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

OP, there is some misunderstandings here. Strifes healing component is % of damage done is healed every 2 seconds FOR 10 seconds, not over 10 seconds. The designed incentive to use the skill is that this is the only ability in a NBs kit that makes maximum use of NBs upt gen passive : recasting siphoning attacks nullifies the effect of its sustain restore, malevolent offering every 4 seconds can easily out you at risk of dying if you arent built for healing, cripples cost increases on top of dot damage being universally delayed with each applicaton makes it not wise to throw out any sooner than when it's going to drop off, sap essence while better, is still not as cheap and requires a target in close range and is really not usefull unless you are going to hit at least 3 targets.

Point is, if you want to maximize ult gen on a mag nb, there are no better options then swallow soul despite its numerous nerfs. In pve, there are close contenders for a spammable but weighing the ult gen vs marginally more dps is a crap shoot. In pvp, its application is problematic for a few reasons, however, if you are building to be sustainable and to kite, it's still the better option, if you are trying to build for max damage from range, force pulse MIGHT pull ahead but not by much, ele weapon is meh and only comes close when you count the orb passive. If you are playing a glass cannon setup, you are likely not playing at range or in sight for more than a few seconds, of which swallow soul is not even intended. On a healer or tanky damage build, it's generally 600hps provided you know where to apply it. The main issue is that the skill is not very smart and will not hang on to a stronger application of the hot when you refresh it on a target that mitigated the damage.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

OP, let me save you time and trouble. Swallow soul is hot garbage in pve and pvp. The only reasons to use it is for the Siphoning Passives.

Elemental weapon is better, force pulse is better, concealed weapon at least gives you speed.

Don’t even get me started on the other morph funnel health, basicly the same as the MagDK obsidian shard except it heals for less than half shard over 10 seconds and shard is an up front burst heal.

Swallow soul is okay for an overland spammable where you just need a little bit of healing, that’s about it.

Force pulse is not better (same damage, slightly less cost, but doesn't heal, doesn't generate ulti and doesn't provide passive for 8% magicka). Eleweapon... unless you have 50 ping and no lag, eleweapon works only within 10 meters, otherwise it is buggy and unstable. Concealed will be good with decreased cost.. but if you wanna go melee, you may just switch to stam. So I disagree about swallow soul being garbage in PVE. Wherever you are out of stack, it helps a lot, btw this is only available option of self-heal.

Maybe pve is different, but for pvp swallow soul is terrible. Yea you get the Siphoning passives, but if you slot another Siphoning ability on the same bar it’s redundant (like debilitate), the only passive you gain is 3% extra healing.

Force pulse is a sizeable dps increase. The cleave damage is a lot plus you get destro staff passives like penetration. Especially in pve the uptime of status effects on targets should be really high. Force pulse also benefits from hitting 3x for procs, one of each elemental damage type, and not being a projectile.

If that’s your only heal then yea, swallow soul is better than not having a heal. In pvp you’ll never be at pen cap without onslaught so expect the heal to be a lot lower. Usually with an 8k tooltip depending on the target you’ll get a 1k heal every two seconds. So about half the hps of refreshing path or dark cloak.

Oh for PVP of course swallow soul is meh, like all vampiric heals it receives quadruple reduction and we have resto back bar with much better options.

There is no quadruple reduction if you are implying one of those 4 reductions is battle spirit. The heal component is not reduced by BS and will ALWAYS heal for a % of the damage dealt. The only reduction is the damage via BS. So it is beholden to the same reductions as direct healing. That being said, I still believe "vampiric" heals should bypass the defiles.

It was? Stronger than crystal fragments? That’s hard to believe.

Im not sure where you got that from.

Misquote, someone mentioned funnel health was the strongest spammable in the game. I thought of dizzy and crystal fragments immediately and wondered if it was ever that strong.

Crystal frag is spammable now ? OK...

OG_Kaveman

. As a spammable skill you overwrite the heal effect. Its poorly designed since it's the only class kit spammable for Magnb.

Because concealed weapon is not part of The nightblade kit. K.

Iskiab

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

People comparing Funnel Health to Obsidian Shard are making the wrong comparison. Obsidian Shard is a DK healer's burst heal, while Funnel Health is a heal over time. Speaking as someone who has both DK and NB healers, I basically use Funnel Health as an alternative to Radiating Regeneration, and Obsidian Shard as an alternative to Healing Ward (or Healthy Offering, if comparing directly to my Nightblade).

That said, the nerfs to Funnel Health a couple of years ago are pretty much the reason I leveled my DK healer in the first place. Funnel Health used to combine extremely cheap direct damage with a powerful multi-target HoT. Now, the cost is doubled, the damage is halved, and the healing is reduced significantly because of the reduction in damage.

While the cost nerf was certainly warranted (it used to do the same damage as every other class spammable, while costing half as much), the other nerfs (combined with the removal of damage from Refreshing Path) pretty much gutted the "deal damage to heal" playstyle that drew me to play a NB in the first place.

Yea you’re right. That’s likely the intent of the classes in how they’re designed, but if you look at how the classes will actually play one class will come out far ahead in pvp.

Pvp setting:
- high burst damage
- CC’s being thrown around constantly

Design NB:
- uses Healthy Offering as the healing spammable
- heals themselves with hots to offset the health dot

Actual play:
- uses healthy Offering as a minor mending buff or emergency heal
- class hots are pretty much useless to keep yourself alive
- Uses resto staff heals to keep themselves alive
- From higher magicka costs on class defense, no/little sustain advantage from using healthy offering
- prone to getting bursted from the lack of a strong self heal
- defensive buffs spread out amongst abilities taking up too much bar space

Result is why play a NB healer? I’m not saying don’t buff DKs, they’re one of the weaker healing classes right now. I’m saying post PTS patch NBs will be the weakest healers.

the1andonlyskwex

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

Iskiab

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

Very true, I PvE heal as well though. I’ve done all the vet dungeons and easier vet trials including HoF (hardest part was finding people to let a magblade heal). Funnel health is just as bad in those settings for the same reason as pvp, healers don’t use pen or work on massive tooltips. The only people who I’ve seen use funnel health are magblade dps, even then most don’t like it.

exeeter702

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

the1andonlyskwex

exeeter702 wrote: »

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Aside from issues relating to a self heal costing health to cast, I'm not sure I see why. All of the other class burst heals are capable of self healing and they don't really cause problems.

With respect to interactions between the self heal and the health cost, I actually think trading health over time for health immediately would be an interesting gameplay mechanic (although it would probably need some adjustments to prevent people from simply spamming it).

Iskiab

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Probably but not necessarily. With game changes to burst it’s a lot tougher to be a tanky magblade. With the burst these days I haven’t seen a spec that doesn’t go down fast in a battleground.

Post patch dizzy likely won’t be as popular but onslaught will probably become more popular then now on live as more people catch up to the meta. It’s also still really effective to attack NB’s stamina, I don’t think it’s possible to make an immortal NB spec and major defile is popular. Major defile reduces the healing amount but not the health drain.

In my Cyro spec healthy Offering is only at 13k. In my tanky BG spec 10k. Post patch specs I’ve been testing have been 13k shard tooltips (with major mending) for DKs and 18k matriarch heals for sorcs.

sly007

teladoy wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

You use the skill as part of a rotation. You don't just spam the skill, so you will see more heals then you think.

Wait... Are you really saying this skill is not intended to be a spameable? I dare to any developer to come here and confirm that!

A part of rotation? You really think that a skill that can be a part of a rotation can do one time damage and then heal over time??? There is already in the resto skill line another skill that heals a lot more! What is the difference? Some damage at the beginning? Really?

Spammable is concealed weapon.

exeeter702

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Aside from issues relating to a self heal costing health to cast, I'm not sure I see why. All of the other class burst heals are capable of self healing and they don't really cause problems.

With respect to interactions between the self heal and the health cost, I actually think trading health over time for health immediately would be an interesting gameplay mechanic (although it would probably need some adjustments to prevent people from simply spamming it).

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Probably but not necessarily. With game changes to burst it’s a lot tougher to be a tanky magblade. With the burst these days I haven’t seen a spec that doesn’t go down fast in a battleground.

Post patch dizzy likely won’t be as popular but onslaught will probably become more popular then now on live as more people catch up to the meta. It’s also still really effective to attack NB’s stamina, I don’t think it’s possible to make an immortal NB spec and major defile is popular. Major defile reduces the healing amount but not the health drain.

In my Cyro spec healthy Offering is only at 13k. In my tanky BG spec 10k. Post patch specs I’ve been testing have been 13k shard tooltips (with major mending) for DKs and 18k matriarch heals for sorcs.

One has no business talking about balance and patch meta if they truly believe self targeting malevolent offering with the ability functioning as it does on live would be a good idea.

Regardless of any preconceived ideas about the direction pvp is going to be in come a given patch that you convince yourself to be true doesnt change this. Healthy offering is still the strongest burst heal in the game, full stop, and it will continue being so next patch as of now. There is nothing so radical that will represent a major shift and create a scenario where the skill becomes invalid just as I remember an equally ridiculous nonsense comment about how offering was doa because the dot meta was too much.

Other burst heals in the game are non comparable as they have a life span tied to magicka, regardless of how well you are built to sustain, under normal pressure even the most frugal of templars will go oom from constant breath spam. Self healing offering would have no interesting trade off because you are negating the health dot with the heal itself, even at max stacks, you are looking at effectively 6k healing a second with battle spirit with no magicka cost, and that value is on the low end non crits and adding in max stack self dot per second. There would be no trade off, you simply heal tank the opposition until allies respawn or arrive at which point you can easily float off the oblivion stacks when no one is on you. This does not even mention standing in path, bogdan proc, dark cloak up, or even running a brp ward setup.

I dont even know why I'm indulging this now. Magblade self sustain could use some help in certian builds, but they are not gimped, and frankly, a self targeting offering is the last thing they need.

Iskiab

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Aside from issues relating to a self heal costing health to cast, I'm not sure I see why. All of the other class burst heals are capable of self healing and they don't really cause problems.

With respect to interactions between the self heal and the health cost, I actually think trading health over time for health immediately would be an interesting gameplay mechanic (although it would probably need some adjustments to prevent people from simply spamming it).

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Probably but not necessarily. With game changes to burst it’s a lot tougher to be a tanky magblade. With the burst these days I haven’t seen a spec that doesn’t go down fast in a battleground.

Post patch dizzy likely won’t be as popular but onslaught will probably become more popular then now on live as more people catch up to the meta. It’s also still really effective to attack NB’s stamina, I don’t think it’s possible to make an immortal NB spec and major defile is popular. Major defile reduces the healing amount but not the health drain.

In my Cyro spec healthy Offering is only at 13k. In my tanky BG spec 10k. Post patch specs I’ve been testing have been 13k shard tooltips (with major mending) for DKs and 18k matriarch heals for sorcs.

One has no business talking about balance and patch meta if they truly believe self targeting malevolent offering with the ability functioning as it does on live would be a good idea.

Regardless of any preconceived ideas about the direction pvp is going to be in come a given patch that you convince yourself to be true doesnt change this. Healthy offering is still the strongest burst heal in the game, full stop, and it will continue being so next patch as of now. There is nothing so radical that will represent a major shift and create a scenario where the skill becomes invalid just as I remember an equally ridiculous nonsense comment about how offering was doa because the dot meta was too much.

Other burst heals in the game are non comparable as they have a life span tied to magicka, regardless of how well you are built to sustain, under normal pressure even the most frugal of templars will go oom from constant breath spam. Self healing offering would have no interesting trade off because you are negating the health dot with the heal itself, even at max stacks, you are looking at effectively 6k healing a second with battle spirit with no magicka cost, and that value is on the low end non crits and adding in max stack self dot per second. There would be no trade off, you simply heal tank the opposition until allies respawn or arrive at which point you can easily float off the oblivion stacks when no one is on you. This does not even mention standing in path, bogdan proc, dark cloak up, or even running a brp ward setup.

I dont even know why I'm indulging this now. Magblade self sustain could use some help in certian builds, but they are not gimped, and frankly, a self targeting offering is the last thing they need.

You're way overestimating the value and cost of healthy offering. The health cost is about 1/3 of the healing value (depending on spec, lowest is 1/4 and can be higher than 1/3) spread out over 8 seconds.

It's also not the best burst heal in the game outside pve. With some classes having to spec more defensively then others - NBs - other classes will have better burst heals, they just cost magicka and not health.

exeeter702

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Aside from issues relating to a self heal costing health to cast, I'm not sure I see why. All of the other class burst heals are capable of self healing and they don't really cause problems.

With respect to interactions between the self heal and the health cost, I actually think trading health over time for health immediately would be an interesting gameplay mechanic (although it would probably need some adjustments to prevent people from simply spamming it).

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Probably but not necessarily. With game changes to burst it’s a lot tougher to be a tanky magblade. With the burst these days I haven’t seen a spec that doesn’t go down fast in a battleground.

Post patch dizzy likely won’t be as popular but onslaught will probably become more popular then now on live as more people catch up to the meta. It’s also still really effective to attack NB’s stamina, I don’t think it’s possible to make an immortal NB spec and major defile is popular. Major defile reduces the healing amount but not the health drain.

In my Cyro spec healthy Offering is only at 13k. In my tanky BG spec 10k. Post patch specs I’ve been testing have been 13k shard tooltips (with major mending) for DKs and 18k matriarch heals for sorcs.

One has no business talking about balance and patch meta if they truly believe self targeting malevolent offering with the ability functioning as it does on live would be a good idea.

Regardless of any preconceived ideas about the direction pvp is going to be in come a given patch that you convince yourself to be true doesnt change this. Healthy offering is still the strongest burst heal in the game, full stop, and it will continue being so next patch as of now. There is nothing so radical that will represent a major shift and create a scenario where the skill becomes invalid just as I remember an equally ridiculous nonsense comment about how offering was doa because the dot meta was too much.

Other burst heals in the game are non comparable as they have a life span tied to magicka, regardless of how well you are built to sustain, under normal pressure even the most frugal of templars will go oom from constant breath spam. Self healing offering would have no interesting trade off because you are negating the health dot with the heal itself, even at max stacks, you are looking at effectively 6k healing a second with battle spirit with no magicka cost, and that value is on the low end non crits and adding in max stack self dot per second. There would be no trade off, you simply heal tank the opposition until allies respawn or arrive at which point you can easily float off the oblivion stacks when no one is on you. This does not even mention standing in path, bogdan proc, dark cloak up, or even running a brp ward setup.

I dont even know why I'm indulging this now. Magblade self sustain could use some help in certian builds, but they are not gimped, and frankly, a self targeting offering is the last thing they need.

You're way overestimating the value and cost of healthy offering. The health cost is about 1/3 of the healing value (depending on spec, lowest is 1/4 and can be higher than 1/3) spread out over 8 seconds.

It's also not the best burst heal in the game outside pve. With some classes having to spec more defensively then others - NBs - other classes will have better burst heals, they just cost magicka and not health.

It's the only heal in its catagory that goes through LOS and ignores elevation limitations(nerfs that were specifically lodged at breath of life in the past before your time here). I'm not over estimating anything. And you keep shoehorning in your idea about general gameplan for a given patch as if it's a granted rule. Theorycraft and speculate all you want, but dont apply your general expectations as a foundation for which to judge the worth of skills on.

Iskiab

exeeter702 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Aside from issues relating to a self heal costing health to cast, I'm not sure I see why. All of the other class burst heals are capable of self healing and they don't really cause problems.

With respect to interactions between the self heal and the health cost, I actually think trading health over time for health immediately would be an interesting gameplay mechanic (although it would probably need some adjustments to prevent people from simply spamming it).

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Probably but not necessarily. With game changes to burst it’s a lot tougher to be a tanky magblade. With the burst these days I haven’t seen a spec that doesn’t go down fast in a battleground.

Post patch dizzy likely won’t be as popular but onslaught will probably become more popular then now on live as more people catch up to the meta. It’s also still really effective to attack NB’s stamina, I don’t think it’s possible to make an immortal NB spec and major defile is popular. Major defile reduces the healing amount but not the health drain.

In my Cyro spec healthy Offering is only at 13k. In my tanky BG spec 10k. Post patch specs I’ve been testing have been 13k shard tooltips (with major mending) for DKs and 18k matriarch heals for sorcs.

One has no business talking about balance and patch meta if they truly believe self targeting malevolent offering with the ability functioning as it does on live would be a good idea.

Regardless of any preconceived ideas about the direction pvp is going to be in come a given patch that you convince yourself to be true doesnt change this. Healthy offering is still the strongest burst heal in the game, full stop, and it will continue being so next patch as of now. There is nothing so radical that will represent a major shift and create a scenario where the skill becomes invalid just as I remember an equally ridiculous nonsense comment about how offering was doa because the dot meta was too much.

Other burst heals in the game are non comparable as they have a life span tied to magicka, regardless of how well you are built to sustain, under normal pressure even the most frugal of templars will go oom from constant breath spam. Self healing offering would have no interesting trade off because you are negating the health dot with the heal itself, even at max stacks, you are looking at effectively 6k healing a second with battle spirit with no magicka cost, and that value is on the low end non crits and adding in max stack self dot per second. There would be no trade off, you simply heal tank the opposition until allies respawn or arrive at which point you can easily float off the oblivion stacks when no one is on you. This does not even mention standing in path, bogdan proc, dark cloak up, or even running a brp ward setup.

I dont even know why I'm indulging this now. Magblade self sustain could use some help in certian builds, but they are not gimped, and frankly, a self targeting offering is the last thing they need.

You're way overestimating the value and cost of healthy offering. The health cost is about 1/3 of the healing value (depending on spec, lowest is 1/4 and can be higher than 1/3) spread out over 8 seconds.

It's also not the best burst heal in the game outside pve. With some classes having to spec more defensively then others - NBs - other classes will have better burst heals, they just cost magicka and not health.

It's the only heal in its catagory that goes through LOS and ignores elevation limitations(nerfs that were specifically lodged at breath of life in the past before your time here). I'm not over estimating anything. And you keep shoehorning in your idea about general gameplan for a given patch as if it's a granted rule. Theorycraft and speculate all you want, but dont apply your general expectations as a foundation for which to judge the worth of skills on.

What other way is there to judge skills then how they’ll be used.

In PvE healers are tied to sets and don’t stray too far from them for debuffs/buffs. In pvp you have more flexibility and every sorc healer will use necropence.

Since the matriarch scales only with magicka and not spell power it was buffed. It now scales better with magicka then healthy Offering. A tanky sorc will absolutely have an 18k tooltip on the matriarch and the best burst heal, to say otherwise is to stick your head in the sand and ignore changes to the game.

exeeter702

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Aside from issues relating to a self heal costing health to cast, I'm not sure I see why. All of the other class burst heals are capable of self healing and they don't really cause problems.

With respect to interactions between the self heal and the health cost, I actually think trading health over time for health immediately would be an interesting gameplay mechanic (although it would probably need some adjustments to prevent people from simply spamming it).

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Probably but not necessarily. With game changes to burst it’s a lot tougher to be a tanky magblade. With the burst these days I haven’t seen a spec that doesn’t go down fast in a battleground.

Post patch dizzy likely won’t be as popular but onslaught will probably become more popular then now on live as more people catch up to the meta. It’s also still really effective to attack NB’s stamina, I don’t think it’s possible to make an immortal NB spec and major defile is popular. Major defile reduces the healing amount but not the health drain.

In my Cyro spec healthy Offering is only at 13k. In my tanky BG spec 10k. Post patch specs I’ve been testing have been 13k shard tooltips (with major mending) for DKs and 18k matriarch heals for sorcs.

One has no business talking about balance and patch meta if they truly believe self targeting malevolent offering with the ability functioning as it does on live would be a good idea.

Regardless of any preconceived ideas about the direction pvp is going to be in come a given patch that you convince yourself to be true doesnt change this. Healthy offering is still the strongest burst heal in the game, full stop, and it will continue being so next patch as of now. There is nothing so radical that will represent a major shift and create a scenario where the skill becomes invalid just as I remember an equally ridiculous nonsense comment about how offering was doa because the dot meta was too much.

Other burst heals in the game are non comparable as they have a life span tied to magicka, regardless of how well you are built to sustain, under normal pressure even the most frugal of templars will go oom from constant breath spam. Self healing offering would have no interesting trade off because you are negating the health dot with the heal itself, even at max stacks, you are looking at effectively 6k healing a second with battle spirit with no magicka cost, and that value is on the low end non crits and adding in max stack self dot per second. There would be no trade off, you simply heal tank the opposition until allies respawn or arrive at which point you can easily float off the oblivion stacks when no one is on you. This does not even mention standing in path, bogdan proc, dark cloak up, or even running a brp ward setup.

I dont even know why I'm indulging this now. Magblade self sustain could use some help in certian builds, but they are not gimped, and frankly, a self targeting offering is the last thing they need.

You're way overestimating the value and cost of healthy offering. The health cost is about 1/3 of the healing value (depending on spec, lowest is 1/4 and can be higher than 1/3) spread out over 8 seconds.

It's also not the best burst heal in the game outside pve. With some classes having to spec more defensively then others - NBs - other classes will have better burst heals, they just cost magicka and not health.

It's the only heal in its catagory that goes through LOS and ignores elevation limitations(nerfs that were specifically lodged at breath of life in the past before your time here). I'm not over estimating anything. And you keep shoehorning in your idea about general gameplan for a given patch as if it's a granted rule. Theorycraft and speculate all you want, but dont apply your general expectations as a foundation for which to judge the worth of skills on.

What other way is there to judge skills then how they’ll be used.

In PvE healers are tied to sets and don’t stray too far from them for debuffs/buffs. In pvp you have more flexibility and every sorc healer will use necropence.

Since the matriarch scales only with magicka and not spell power it was buffed. It now scales better with magicka then healthy Offering. A tanky sorc will absolutely have an 18k tooltip on the matriarch and the best burst heal, to say otherwise is to stick your head in the sand and ignore changes to the game.

I'm not talking about judging skills in how they will be used, I'm simply saying you often spout theories and assumptions and use them as a base for gauging the tier of skills in question. Healthy offering was far more useful to me this last patch than it has ever been in pvp. And there are no game changing massive overhauls so extreme to the point where magblades all the sudden cant be as tanky, *** is fine and only marginally shifted which will require some slight adjustments. This preaching that the skill is losing value when it's not, because nb healers wont be able to safely front the cost anymore (they can and will) is pure conjecture.

Matratich requires commiting 2 bar slots, microing the pet, and in the worst case, you have to commit to a hard cast to regain access to it AND cannot crit.......

There is more to a valuable burst heal than its raw tooltip throughput. Matriarch was always solid and back when it was initially introduced in theives guild, most sorcs were working max magicka builds and those that decided to use matriarch quickly realized it was more potent than breath, and nothing changed. It is a great heal it always has been. But its vices are still very much present.

And frankly none of this matters, as the point was that self targeting offering will absolutely be overpowered. 10k tooltip buffed no magicka cost critable self burst heal in no cp nb healer with 26k hp and 26-30k resistance would not be fine.

Koensol

Lol, if people cannot see why a selfheal without the possibility of running out of the resource to cast that heal would be broken OP, then I don't know what to say. With 1 or 2 hots on you, and spamming offering on self, it is impossible to run out of health unless you are being seriously zerged.

rabidmyers

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

They ruined this skill. Swallow sould used to give you a minor mending buff and funnel health used to heal 2 allies also, it was a cool unique spammable that has been made bland over time

funnel health is back to healing 2 allies btw, i been wanting that change back forever now and yeah i love it

Koensol

rabidrufus64 wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

They ruined this skill. Swallow sould used to give you a minor mending buff and funnel health used to heal 2 allies also, it was a cool unique spammable that has been made bland over time

funnel health is back to healing 2 allies btw, i been wanting that change back forever now and yeah i love it

The reduced damage on it still makes it worthless to be used in pvp. Which is a shame considering it would be the dream spammable for a healer/dd hybrid.

the1andonlyskwex

Koensol wrote: »

Lol, if people cannot see why a selfheal without the possibility of running out of the resource to cast that heal would be broken OP, then I don't know what to say. With 1 or 2 hots on you, and spamming offering on self, it is impossible to run out of health unless you are being seriously zerged.

It's not that I don't see the problem, it's that I think the problem is solvable. Here are some options:
1) Increase the cost (probably not desirable)
2) Increase the cost only when self healing (this might be too unpredictable with smart targeting)
3) Add a cost increase mechanic like bolt escape to prevent spamming (this may be problematic in PvE)
4) Increase the health cost (possibly by increasing the duration rather than the rate of the DoT), but also increase the number of targets. (As long as the cost is comparable to the self healing, there won't be a PvP problem, and as long as the total healing is significantly greater than the cost there won't be a PvE problem.)
5) Add a magicka cost in addition to the health cost
6) Replace the health cost with a magicka cost (All classes should really have some sort of reliable burst heal that isn't limited to non-self targets for PvE healing. If this is what it takes to prevent PvP problems, so be it.)

Edit: Also, Battle Spirit will help significantly in achieving balance. The health cost only needs to be comparable to half of the PvE heal, not the full thing, to prevent PvP problems.

Iskiab

Well, with no stuns or incoming damage you could keep yourself alive. Accomplishing that doesn’t seem like an accomplishment.

I’m pretty sure NB healers will play out how I think they will. From one of the strongest pvp healers a couple patches ago to the weakest one.

There aren’t enough NB healers to make 20 page complaint threads about it, but you’ll see. It takes a while to adjust after each patch, right before the next patch you’ll likely think back and remember what I said.

Koensol

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Lol, if people cannot see why a selfheal without the possibility of running out of the resource to cast that heal would be broken OP, then I don't know what to say. With 1 or 2 hots on you, and spamming offering on self, it is impossible to run out of health unless you are being seriously zerged.

It's not that I don't see the problem, it's that I think the problem is solvable. Here are some options:
1) Increase the cost (probably not desirable)
2) Increase the cost only when self healing (this might be too unpredictable with smart targeting)
3) Add a cost increase mechanic like bolt escape to prevent spamming (this may be problematic in PvE)
4) Increase the health cost (possibly by increasing the duration rather than the rate of the DoT), but also increase the number of targets. (As long as the cost is comparable to the self healing, there won't be a PvP problem, and as long as the total healing is significantly greater than the cost there won't be a PvE problem.)
5) Add a magicka cost in addition to the health cost
6) Replace the health cost with a magicka cost (All classes should really have some sort of reliable burst heal that isn't limited to non-self targets for PvE healing. If this is what it takes to prevent PvP problems, so be it.)

Edit: Also, Battle Spirit will help significantly in achieving balance. The health cost only needs to be comparable to half of the PvE heal, not the full thing, to prevent PvP problems.

So basically a lot of hassle just to make the ability into something it isn't, by design. If you want it to be castable on self, it would need to cost magicka. Health cost on something that restores more health than it costs is very bad design.

Koensol

Iskiab wrote: »

Well, with no stuns or incoming damage you could keep yourself alive. Accomplishing that doesn’t seem like an accomplishment.

I’m pretty sure NB healers will play out how I think they will. From one of the strongest pvp healers a couple patches ago to the weakest one.

There aren’t enough NB healers to make 20 page complaint threads about it, but you’ll see. It takes a while to adjust after each patch, right before the next patch you’ll likely think back and remember what I said.

Basically, in any smaller scale combat, a tankspecced nb healer would be immortal. With all the amount of healing multipliers, lingering vitality pots, heal ults and a massive self heal that can crit for 12k in no cp on a heavy armor build, and that restores far more than it costs, it could be spammed ad nauseum. It would be beyond broken. Just the fact it restores more of the resource that it costs is reason enough to call it a dumb idea.

Iskiab

exeeter702 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Aside from issues relating to a self heal costing health to cast, I'm not sure I see why. All of the other class burst heals are capable of self healing and they don't really cause problems.

With respect to interactions between the self heal and the health cost, I actually think trading health over time for health immediately would be an interesting gameplay mechanic (although it would probably need some adjustments to prevent people from simply spamming it).

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Probably but not necessarily. With game changes to burst it’s a lot tougher to be a tanky magblade. With the burst these days I haven’t seen a spec that doesn’t go down fast in a battleground.

Post patch dizzy likely won’t be as popular but onslaught will probably become more popular then now on live as more people catch up to the meta. It’s also still really effective to attack NB’s stamina, I don’t think it’s possible to make an immortal NB spec and major defile is popular. Major defile reduces the healing amount but not the health drain.

In my Cyro spec healthy Offering is only at 13k. In my tanky BG spec 10k. Post patch specs I’ve been testing have been 13k shard tooltips (with major mending) for DKs and 18k matriarch heals for sorcs.

One has no business talking about balance and patch meta if they truly believe self targeting malevolent offering with the ability functioning as it does on live would be a good idea.

Regardless of any preconceived ideas about the direction pvp is going to be in come a given patch that you convince yourself to be true doesnt change this. Healthy offering is still the strongest burst heal in the game, full stop, and it will continue being so next patch as of now. There is nothing so radical that will represent a major shift and create a scenario where the skill becomes invalid just as I remember an equally ridiculous nonsense comment about how offering was doa because the dot meta was too much.

Other burst heals in the game are non comparable as they have a life span tied to magicka, regardless of how well you are built to sustain, under normal pressure even the most frugal of templars will go oom from constant breath spam. Self healing offering would have no interesting trade off because you are negating the health dot with the heal itself, even at max stacks, you are looking at effectively 6k healing a second with battle spirit with no magicka cost, and that value is on the low end non crits and adding in max stack self dot per second. There would be no trade off, you simply heal tank the opposition until allies respawn or arrive at which point you can easily float off the oblivion stacks when no one is on you. This does not even mention standing in path, bogdan proc, dark cloak up, or even running a brp ward setup.

I dont even know why I'm indulging this now. Magblade self sustain could use some help in certian builds, but they are not gimped, and frankly, a self targeting offering is the last thing they need.

You're way overestimating the value and cost of healthy offering. The health cost is about 1/3 of the healing value (depending on spec, lowest is 1/4 and can be higher than 1/3) spread out over 8 seconds.

It's also not the best burst heal in the game outside pve. With some classes having to spec more defensively then others - NBs - other classes will have better burst heals, they just cost magicka and not health.

It's the only heal in its catagory that goes through LOS and ignores elevation limitations(nerfs that were specifically lodged at breath of life in the past before your time here). I'm not over estimating anything. And you keep shoehorning in your idea about general gameplan for a given patch as if it's a granted rule. Theorycraft and speculate all you want, but dont apply your general expectations as a foundation for which to judge the worth of skills on.

What other way is there to judge skills then how they’ll be used.

In PvE healers are tied to sets and don’t stray too far from them for debuffs/buffs. In pvp you have more flexibility and every sorc healer will use necropence.

Since the matriarch scales only with magicka and not spell power it was buffed. It now scales better with magicka then healthy Offering. A tanky sorc will absolutely have an 18k tooltip on the matriarch and the best burst heal, to say otherwise is to stick your head in the sand and ignore changes to the game.

I'm not talking about judging skills in how they will be used, I'm simply saying you often spout theories and assumptions and use them as a base for gauging the tier of skills in question. Healthy offering was far more useful to me this last patch than it has ever been in pvp. And there are no game changing massive overhauls so extreme to the point where magblades all the sudden cant be as tanky, *** is fine and only marginally shifted which will require some slight adjustments. This preaching that the skill is losing value when it's not, because nb healers wont be able to safely front the cost anymore (they can and will) is pure conjecture.

Matratich requires commiting 2 bar slots, microing the pet, and in the worst case, you have to commit to a hard cast to regain access to it AND cannot crit.......

There is more to a valuable burst heal than its raw tooltip throughput. Matriarch was always solid and back when it was initially introduced in theives guild, most sorcs were working max magicka builds and those that decided to use matriarch quickly realized it was more potent than breath, and nothing changed. It is a great heal it always has been. But its vices are still very much present.

And frankly none of this matters, as the point was that self targeting offering will absolutely be overpowered. 10k tooltip buffed no magicka cost critable self burst heal in no cp nb healer with 26k hp and 26-30k resistance would not be fine.

By the way, just to clarify. The matriarch heal absolutely can crit. Just tested it again on PTS to verify.

exeeter702

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Aside from issues relating to a self heal costing health to cast, I'm not sure I see why. All of the other class burst heals are capable of self healing and they don't really cause problems.

With respect to interactions between the self heal and the health cost, I actually think trading health over time for health immediately would be an interesting gameplay mechanic (although it would probably need some adjustments to prevent people from simply spamming it).

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@Iskiab

1) Not every skill needs to be a PvP skill.
2) The biggest problems with NB healing are a lack of identity and the fact that Malevolent Offering can't self-heal.

If malevolent offering self healed, magblades would be grossly overpowered. There is a reason it's a selfless heal by design, otherwise tanky healing NB builds would become borderline immortal unless piled up on.

Probably but not necessarily. With game changes to burst it’s a lot tougher to be a tanky magblade. With the burst these days I haven’t seen a spec that doesn’t go down fast in a battleground.

Post patch dizzy likely won’t be as popular but onslaught will probably become more popular then now on live as more people catch up to the meta. It’s also still really effective to attack NB’s stamina, I don’t think it’s possible to make an immortal NB spec and major defile is popular. Major defile reduces the healing amount but not the health drain.

In my Cyro spec healthy Offering is only at 13k. In my tanky BG spec 10k. Post patch specs I’ve been testing have been 13k shard tooltips (with major mending) for DKs and 18k matriarch heals for sorcs.

One has no business talking about balance and patch meta if they truly believe self targeting malevolent offering with the ability functioning as it does on live would be a good idea.

Regardless of any preconceived ideas about the direction pvp is going to be in come a given patch that you convince yourself to be true doesnt change this. Healthy offering is still the strongest burst heal in the game, full stop, and it will continue being so next patch as of now. There is nothing so radical that will represent a major shift and create a scenario where the skill becomes invalid just as I remember an equally ridiculous nonsense comment about how offering was doa because the dot meta was too much.

Other burst heals in the game are non comparable as they have a life span tied to magicka, regardless of how well you are built to sustain, under normal pressure even the most frugal of templars will go oom from constant breath spam. Self healing offering would have no interesting trade off because you are negating the health dot with the heal itself, even at max stacks, you are looking at effectively 6k healing a second with battle spirit with no magicka cost, and that value is on the low end non crits and adding in max stack self dot per second. There would be no trade off, you simply heal tank the opposition until allies respawn or arrive at which point you can easily float off the oblivion stacks when no one is on you. This does not even mention standing in path, bogdan proc, dark cloak up, or even running a brp ward setup.

I dont even know why I'm indulging this now. Magblade self sustain could use some help in certian builds, but they are not gimped, and frankly, a self targeting offering is the last thing they need.

You're way overestimating the value and cost of healthy offering. The health cost is about 1/3 of the healing value (depending on spec, lowest is 1/4 and can be higher than 1/3) spread out over 8 seconds.

It's also not the best burst heal in the game outside pve. With some classes having to spec more defensively then others - NBs - other classes will have better burst heals, they just cost magicka and not health.

It's the only heal in its catagory that goes through LOS and ignores elevation limitations(nerfs that were specifically lodged at breath of life in the past before your time here). I'm not over estimating anything. And you keep shoehorning in your idea about general gameplan for a given patch as if it's a granted rule. Theorycraft and speculate all you want, but dont apply your general expectations as a foundation for which to judge the worth of skills on.

What other way is there to judge skills then how they’ll be used.

In PvE healers are tied to sets and don’t stray too far from them for debuffs/buffs. In pvp you have more flexibility and every sorc healer will use necropence.

Since the matriarch scales only with magicka and not spell power it was buffed. It now scales better with magicka then healthy Offering. A tanky sorc will absolutely have an 18k tooltip on the matriarch and the best burst heal, to say otherwise is to stick your head in the sand and ignore changes to the game.

I'm not talking about judging skills in how they will be used, I'm simply saying you often spout theories and assumptions and use them as a base for gauging the tier of skills in question. Healthy offering was far more useful to me this last patch than it has ever been in pvp. And there are no game changing massive overhauls so extreme to the point where magblades all the sudden cant be as tanky, *** is fine and only marginally shifted which will require some slight adjustments. This preaching that the skill is losing value when it's not, because nb healers wont be able to safely front the cost anymore (they can and will) is pure conjecture.

Matratich requires commiting 2 bar slots, microing the pet, and in the worst case, you have to commit to a hard cast to regain access to it AND cannot crit.......

There is more to a valuable burst heal than its raw tooltip throughput. Matriarch was always solid and back when it was initially introduced in theives guild, most sorcs were working max magicka builds and those that decided to use matriarch quickly realized it was more potent than breath, and nothing changed. It is a great heal it always has been. But its vices are still very much present.

And frankly none of this matters, as the point was that self targeting offering will absolutely be overpowered. 10k tooltip buffed no magicka cost critable self burst heal in no cp nb healer with 26k hp and 26-30k resistance would not be fine.

By the way, just to clarify. The matriarch heal absolutely can crit. Just tested it again on PTS to verify.

Good enough call. Obviously a change that went unnoticed as this ability did not crit up throughout morrowind.

OG_Kaveman

exeeter702 wrote: »

Good enough call. Obviously a change that went unnoticed as this ability did not crit up throughout morrowind.

what are you talking about? the matriarchs heal ALWAYS crit. always. never did it NOT crit.

exeeter702

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Good enough call. Obviously a change that went unnoticed as this ability did not crit up throughout morrowind.

what are you talking about? the matriarchs heal ALWAYS crit. always. never did it NOT crit.

This was fairly spoken about when it first hit pts during TGs, I'm not talking out of my ass, unless there was something I'm misremembering. It's obvious what I'm talking about.

Ender1310

The skill sucks as is. This is irrefutable. All of the dispute over semantics does nothing to negate this fact.

OG_Kaveman

exeeter702 wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Good enough call. Obviously a change that went unnoticed as this ability did not crit up throughout morrowind.

what are you talking about? the matriarchs heal ALWAYS crit. always. never did it NOT crit.

This was fairly spoken about when it first hit pts during TGs, I'm not talking out of my ass, unless there was something I'm misremembering. It's obvious what I'm talking about.

first off, to the bold, please read this- https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/what-are-you-talking-about


second, there has never been a day in this game, on live, that the matriarchs heal did not crit. it always has. like every single day. we are talking about the duel burst heal. not the old " If your health falls below 35%, she can heal you for 120, but only once every 30 seconds." heal.

exeeter702

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Good enough call. Obviously a change that went unnoticed as this ability did not crit up throughout morrowind.

what are you talking about? the matriarchs heal ALWAYS crit. always. never did it NOT crit.

This was fairly spoken about when it first hit pts during TGs, I'm not talking out of my ass, unless there was something I'm misremembering. It's obvious what I'm talking about.

first off, to the bold, please read this- https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/what-are-you-talking-about


second, there has never been a day in this game, on live, that the matriarchs heal did not crit. it always has. like every single day. we are talking about the duel burst heal. not the old " If your health falls below 35%, she can heal you for 120, but only once every 30 seconds." heal.

I dont speak out of my ass on these forums, never have, if I said it didn't crit with conviction, then I did so for a reason. If my wires were crossed then so be it. And just to be clear I'm fully aware of matriarchs power as I was one of its staunch defenders when it was updated. Its possible I was conflating aspects of the older hp based heals with the post TG matriarch heal since it was years ago.

Take your smart ass remarks elsewhere.

Iskiab

exeeter702 wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Good enough call. Obviously a change that went unnoticed as this ability did not crit up throughout morrowind.

what are you talking about? the matriarchs heal ALWAYS crit. always. never did it NOT crit.

This was fairly spoken about when it first hit pts during TGs, I'm not talking out of my ass, unless there was something I'm misremembering. It's obvious what I'm talking about.

first off, to the bold, please read this- https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/what-are-you-talking-about


second, there has never been a day in this game, on live, that the matriarchs heal did not crit. it always has. like every single day. we are talking about the duel burst heal. not the old " If your health falls below 35%, she can heal you for 120, but only once every 30 seconds." heal.

I dont speak out of my ass on these forums, never have, if I said it didn't crit with conviction, then I did so for a reason. If my wires were crossed then so be it. And just to be clear I'm fully aware of matriarchs power as I was one of its staunch defenders when it was updated. Its possible I was conflating aspects of the older hp based heals with the post TG matriarch heal since it was years ago.

Take your smart ass remarks elsewhere.

Likely came from saying other people shouldn’t comment on things as an authority, but one of your base assumptions was wrong.

Shields cannot crit so Sorcs have traditionally not worried about crit, since it doesn’t effect their shield size. I looked at it and came from another direction and and the first magsorc spec I’m going to try is Necropence + Morher’s Sorrow and Chudan