Swallow Soul - help me understand

teladoy

Swallow Soul:

Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters
Cost: 2700 Magicka

Skill description
Steal an enemy's life force, dealing 763 Magic Damage and healing you for 35% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds for 10 seconds.

New effect
Drastically increases damage. Heal is decreased and only targets self.


It heals the 35% of the damage over 10 long seconds... A spameable skill that heals over 10 very long seconds and only the 35% of the damage....

I always thought spameable abilities should make sense as spameable, that means if I use Swallow Soul in a row it benefits me in nothing excepting for the small first heal and the rest of the heals if I decide to disengage of combat.

I believe this mechanic make sense in other kind of abilities, like structured entropy but not in this one.

Maybe zos could review this skill and see if they can think in something better.

GhostofDatthaw

They ruined this skill. Swallow sould used to give you a minor mending buff and funnel health used to heal 2 allies also, it was a cool unique spammable that has been made bland over time

OG_Kaveman

You use the skill as part of a rotation. You don't just spam the skill, so you will see more heals then you think.

SipofMaim

Magblade got rekt with repeated applications of nerfhammer and various "play your way" skill changes, and their unique siphon abilities exist in a kind of temporary limbo of good-enough at this point. That's why your kit doesn't make much sense.

You might get some relief when NB gets their "class identity" pass, but so far those haven't been all that for magicka specs.

kathandira

teladoy wrote: »

Swallow Soul:

Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters
Cost: 2700 Magicka

Skill description
Steal an enemy's life force, dealing 763 Magic Damage and healing you for 35% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds for 10 seconds.

New effect
Drastically increases damage. Heal is decreased and only targets self.


It heals the 35% of the damage over 10 long seconds... A spameable skill that heals over 10 very long seconds and only the 35% of the damage....

I always thought spameable abilities should make sense as spameable, that means if I use Swallow Soul in a row it benefits me in nothing excepting for the small first heal and the rest of the heals if I decide to disengage of combat.

I believe this mechanic make sense in other kind of abilities, like structured entropy but not in this one.

Maybe zos could review this skill and see if they can think in something better.

I think this is a result of a black and white view if skills on the communities part.

We have spammables and damage over time. Though really, we also have single strike utility attacks, such as swallow soul. It may not be intended t be spammed, but rather fit into a rotation as a single strike which is to be used each time its utility expires.

teladoy

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

You use the skill as part of a rotation. You don't just spam the skill, so you will see more heals then you think.

Wait... Are you really saying this skill is not intended to be a spameable? I dare to any developer to come here and confirm that!

A part of rotation? You really think that a skill that can be a part of a rotation can do one time damage and then heal over time??? There is already in the resto skill line another skill that heals a lot more! What is the difference? Some damage at the beginning? Really?

kathandira

teladoy wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

You use the skill as part of a rotation. You don't just spam the skill, so you will see more heals then you think.

Wait... Are you really saying this skill is not intended to be a spameable? I dare to any developer to come here and confirm that!

A part of rotation? You really think that a skill that can be a part of a rotation can do one time damage and then heal over time??? There is already in the resto skill line another skill that heals a lot more! What is the difference? Some damage at the beginning? Really?

So you want to equip a Resto Staff on your DPS Character in a Trial?

teladoy

kathandira wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

You use the skill as part of a rotation. You don't just spam the skill, so you will see more heals then you think.

Wait... Are you really saying this skill is not intended to be a spameable? I dare to any developer to come here and confirm that!

A part of rotation? You really think that a skill that can be a part of a rotation can do one time damage and then heal over time??? There is already in the resto skill line another skill that heals a lot more! What is the difference? Some damage at the beginning? Really?

So you want to equip a Resto Staff on your DPS Character in a Trial?

Two things:

I can equip a resto staff in second bar and swap and I don't believe anyone uses this skill not for normal, veteran and trials dungeons.

OG_Kaveman

teladoy wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

You use the skill as part of a rotation. You don't just spam the skill, so you will see more heals then you think.

Wait... Are you really saying this skill is not intended to be a spameable? I dare to any developer to come here and confirm that!

A part of rotation? You really think that a skill that can be a part of a rotation can do one time damage and then heal over time??? There is already in the resto skill line another skill that heals a lot more! What is the difference? Some damage at the beginning? Really?

No, you missunderstand, almost seems purposely, there is a difference between being a spammable and doing nothing but spamming a skill. I thought this was obvious but clearly I overestimated my audience.

kathandira

teladoy wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

You use the skill as part of a rotation. You don't just spam the skill, so you will see more heals then you think.

Wait... Are you really saying this skill is not intended to be a spameable? I dare to any developer to come here and confirm that!

A part of rotation? You really think that a skill that can be a part of a rotation can do one time damage and then heal over time??? There is already in the resto skill line another skill that heals a lot more! What is the difference? Some damage at the beginning? Really?

So you want to equip a Resto Staff on your DPS Character in a Trial?

Two things:

I can equip a resto staff in second bar and swap and I don't believe anyone uses this skill not for normal, veteran and trials dungeons.

I would absolutely use this skill in Dungeons or Trials. I like having a skill that provides me a heal. There are sometimes circumstances where you may not be able to reply on a healer (Example, during a Portal Phase where no healer is with you).

GhostofDatthaw

You bring up the point of "why don't I just throw on a resto staff" that used to actually and still may be, idk now with the destro light attack buffs. But you get a healing passive with resto staff you get healing passive with siphon passive and swallow soul gave minor mending. So I forget the buffs in all number wise but throw swallow soul and cripple on you back resto bar proc mercy then switch to atttack bar. It's how alot of old magblades played.

kathandira

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

You bring up the point of "why don't I just throw on a resto staff" that used to actually and still may be, idk now with the destro light attack buffs. But you get a healing passive with resto staff you get healing passive with siphon passive and swallow soul gave minor mending. So I forget the buffs in all number wise but throw swallow soul and cripple on you back resto bar proc mercy then switch to atttack bar. It's how alot of old magblades played.

The catch I can see to that, is you would be restricting access of Destro Staff Skills on your back bar. Which is where most keep Elemental Blockade so they can get their Back Bar glyph to proc while they are on their front bar.

Let me add that I am specifically talking about in PvE.

Iskiab

OP, let me save you time and trouble. Swallow soul is hot garbage in pve and pvp. The only reasons to use it is for the Siphoning Passives.

Elemental weapon is better, force pulse is better, concealed weapon at least gives you speed.

Don’t even get me started on the other morph funnel health, basicly the same as the MagDK obsidian shard except it heals for less than half shard over 10 seconds and shard is an up front burst heal.

Swallow soul is okay for an overland spammable where you just need a little bit of healing, that’s about it.

FrancisCrawford

I forget -- does the heal tick upon the initial cast, or only start ticking 2 seconds later?

I presume it's the former, or else spamming the skill wouldn't heal at all.

MartiniDaniels

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I forget -- does the heal tick upon the initial cast, or only start ticking 2 seconds later?

I presume it's the former, or else spamming the skill wouldn't heal at all.

It heals instantly on heal for 35% of damage (in PVE). Also if you will spam it each GCD, it will heal each GCD, so often you may outheal big incoming damage with swallow spam. Still good ability imo, last of 2 good things about magblade. (2nd is impale)
All other toolkit is BS. In light of new incoming nerfs, I decided to switch to stamblade (thankfully I am dunmer so can afford this) = +20% dps instantly from first try.

MartiniDaniels

Iskiab wrote: »

OP, let me save you time and trouble. Swallow soul is hot garbage in pve and pvp. The only reasons to use it is for the Siphoning Passives.

Elemental weapon is better, force pulse is better, concealed weapon at least gives you speed.

Don’t even get me started on the other morph funnel health, basicly the same as the MagDK obsidian shard except it heals for less than half shard over 10 seconds and shard is an up front burst heal.

Swallow soul is okay for an overland spammable where you just need a little bit of healing, that’s about it.

Force pulse is not better (same damage, slightly less cost, but doesn't heal, doesn't generate ulti and doesn't provide passive for 8% magicka). Eleweapon... unless you have 50 ping and no lag, eleweapon works only within 10 meters, otherwise it is buggy and unstable. Concealed will be good with decreased cost.. but if you wanna go melee, you may just switch to stam. So I disagree about swallow soul being garbage in PVE. Wherever you are out of stack, it helps a lot, btw this is only available option of self-heal.

Iskiab

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

OP, let me save you time and trouble. Swallow soul is hot garbage in pve and pvp. The only reasons to use it is for the Siphoning Passives.

Elemental weapon is better, force pulse is better, concealed weapon at least gives you speed.

Don’t even get me started on the other morph funnel health, basicly the same as the MagDK obsidian shard except it heals for less than half shard over 10 seconds and shard is an up front burst heal.

Swallow soul is okay for an overland spammable where you just need a little bit of healing, that’s about it.

Force pulse is not better (same damage, slightly less cost, but doesn't heal, doesn't generate ulti and doesn't provide passive for 8% magicka). Eleweapon... unless you have 50 ping and no lag, eleweapon works only within 10 meters, otherwise it is buggy and unstable. Concealed will be good with decreased cost.. but if you wanna go melee, you may just switch to stam. So I disagree about swallow soul being garbage in PVE. Wherever you are out of stack, it helps a lot, btw this is only available option of self-heal.

Maybe pve is different, but for pvp swallow soul is terrible. Yea you get the Siphoning passives, but if you slot another Siphoning ability on the same bar it’s redundant (like debilitate), the only passive you gain is 3% extra healing.

Force pulse is a sizeable dps increase. The cleave damage is a lot plus you get destro staff passives like penetration. Especially in pve the uptime of status effects on targets should be really high. Force pulse also benefits from hitting 3x for procs, one of each elemental damage type, and not being a projectile.

If that’s your only heal then yea, swallow soul is better than not having a heal. In pvp you’ll never be at pen cap without onslaught so expect the heal to be a lot lower. Usually with an 8k tooltip depending on the target you’ll get a 1k heal every two seconds. So about half the hps of refreshing path or dark cloak.

MartiniDaniels

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

OP, let me save you time and trouble. Swallow soul is hot garbage in pve and pvp. The only reasons to use it is for the Siphoning Passives.

Elemental weapon is better, force pulse is better, concealed weapon at least gives you speed.

Don’t even get me started on the other morph funnel health, basicly the same as the MagDK obsidian shard except it heals for less than half shard over 10 seconds and shard is an up front burst heal.

Swallow soul is okay for an overland spammable where you just need a little bit of healing, that’s about it.

Force pulse is not better (same damage, slightly less cost, but doesn't heal, doesn't generate ulti and doesn't provide passive for 8% magicka). Eleweapon... unless you have 50 ping and no lag, eleweapon works only within 10 meters, otherwise it is buggy and unstable. Concealed will be good with decreased cost.. but if you wanna go melee, you may just switch to stam. So I disagree about swallow soul being garbage in PVE. Wherever you are out of stack, it helps a lot, btw this is only available option of self-heal.

Maybe pve is different, but for pvp swallow soul is terrible. Yea you get the Siphoning passives, but if you slot another Siphoning ability on the same bar it’s redundant (like debilitate), the only passive you gain is 3% extra healing.

Force pulse is a sizeable dps increase. The cleave damage is a lot plus you get destro staff passives like penetration. Especially in pve the uptime of status effects on targets should be really high. Force pulse also benefits from hitting 3x for procs, one of each elemental damage type, and not being a projectile.

If that’s your only heal then yea, swallow soul is better than not having a heal. In pvp you’ll never be at pen cap without onslaught so expect the heal to be a lot lower. Usually with an 8k tooltip depending on the target you’ll get a 1k heal every two seconds. So about half the hps of refreshing path or dark cloak.

Oh for PVP of course swallow soul is meh, like all vampiric heals it receives quadruple reduction and we have resto back bar with much better options.

exeeter702

OP, there is some misunderstandings here. Strifes healing component is % of damage done is healed every 2 seconds FOR 10 seconds, not over 10 seconds. The designed incentive to use the skill is that this is the only ability in a NBs kit that makes maximum use of NBs upt gen passive : recasting siphoning attacks nullifies the effect of its sustain restore, malevolent offering every 4 seconds can easily out you at risk of dying if you arent built for healing, cripples cost increases on top of dot damage being universally delayed with each applicaton makes it not wise to throw out any sooner than when it's going to drop off, sap essence while better, is still not as cheap and requires a target in close range and is really not usefull unless you are going to hit at least 3 targets.

Point is, if you want to maximize ult gen on a mag nb, there are no better options then swallow soul despite its numerous nerfs. In pve, there are close contenders for a spammable but weighing the ult gen vs marginally more dps is a crap shoot. In pvp, its application is problematic for a few reasons, however, if you are building to be sustainable and to kite, it's still the better option, if you are trying to build for max damage from range, force pulse MIGHT pull ahead but not by much, ele weapon is meh and only comes close when you count the orb passive. If you are playing a glass cannon setup, you are likely not playing at range or in sight for more than a few seconds, of which swallow soul is not even intended. On a healer or tanky damage build, it's generally 600hps provided you know where to apply it. The main issue is that the skill is not very smart and will not hang on to a stronger application of the hot when you refresh it on a target that mitigated the damage.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

OP, let me save you time and trouble. Swallow soul is hot garbage in pve and pvp. The only reasons to use it is for the Siphoning Passives.

Elemental weapon is better, force pulse is better, concealed weapon at least gives you speed.

Don’t even get me started on the other morph funnel health, basicly the same as the MagDK obsidian shard except it heals for less than half shard over 10 seconds and shard is an up front burst heal.

Swallow soul is okay for an overland spammable where you just need a little bit of healing, that’s about it.

Force pulse is not better (same damage, slightly less cost, but doesn't heal, doesn't generate ulti and doesn't provide passive for 8% magicka). Eleweapon... unless you have 50 ping and no lag, eleweapon works only within 10 meters, otherwise it is buggy and unstable. Concealed will be good with decreased cost.. but if you wanna go melee, you may just switch to stam. So I disagree about swallow soul being garbage in PVE. Wherever you are out of stack, it helps a lot, btw this is only available option of self-heal.

Maybe pve is different, but for pvp swallow soul is terrible. Yea you get the Siphoning passives, but if you slot another Siphoning ability on the same bar it’s redundant (like debilitate), the only passive you gain is 3% extra healing.

Force pulse is a sizeable dps increase. The cleave damage is a lot plus you get destro staff passives like penetration. Especially in pve the uptime of status effects on targets should be really high. Force pulse also benefits from hitting 3x for procs, one of each elemental damage type, and not being a projectile.

If that’s your only heal then yea, swallow soul is better than not having a heal. In pvp you’ll never be at pen cap without onslaught so expect the heal to be a lot lower. Usually with an 8k tooltip depending on the target you’ll get a 1k heal every two seconds. So about half the hps of refreshing path or dark cloak.

Oh for PVP of course swallow soul is meh, like all vampiric heals it receives quadruple reduction and we have resto back bar with much better options.

There is no quadruple reduction if you are implying one of those 4 reductions is battle spirit. The heal component is not reduced by BS and will ALWAYS heal for a % of the damage dealt. The only reduction is the damage via BS. So it is beholden to the same reductions as direct healing. That being said, I still believe "vampiric" heals should bypass the defiles.

f047ys3v3n

teladoy wrote: »

Swallow Soul:

Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters
Cost: 2700 Magicka

Skill description
Steal an enemy's life force, dealing 763 Magic Damage and healing you for 35% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds for 10 seconds.

New effect
Drastically increases damage. Heal is decreased and only targets self.


It heals the 35% of the damage over 10 long seconds... A spameable skill that heals over 10 very long seconds and only the 35% of the damage....

I always thought spameable abilities should make sense as spameable, that means if I use Swallow Soul in a row it benefits me in nothing excepting for the small first heal and the rest of the heals if I decide to disengage of combat.

I believe this mechanic make sense in other kind of abilities, like structured entropy but not in this one.

Maybe zos could review this skill and see if they can think in something better.

You need to understand where this skill came from to sort of understand where it is now.

Swallow soul / Funnel Health, were designed, like most skills originally, to be 2 things. ESO has only 10 skill slots so most abilities originally did 2 things so that you could get all your needs met. This skill was your primary spam-able, and your primary HOT. The skill actually did more damage than force pulse and was cheaper because class skills were always better than general ones (it may have been the strongest skill in the game but nb's DOT's were, and are, garbage, so it was probably fine). Now you have noticed it's nerfed to hell in all regards.

The Swallow soul morph used to boost all your self heals but wasn't used much because funnel health gave out 2x group heals in addition to your self heals. These 2x group heals always targeted your groups lowest health members and put the full HOT on them for the full duration. This group heal did not max out at 2x other players but rather at least 6x. So, you could HOT half your group and would auto-target anybody who went low. I should also mention that it used to double crit (the increased damage from a crit swallow could be crit upon again with the heal to actually be a pretty substantial heal).

So, yea, you have noted that now, if you spam many swallow souls, the heal just overwrites itself and the heal you get is no real bargain for the damage you give up over a different spam-able. In a normal rotation of DOT's though, you will only cast it once per duration so you will get the full heal you paid for. The heal is still not a very strong HOT though and is not going to get you though most solo dps utility roles in trials or though vMA. You will need to slot other defenses in the form of shields and / or other heals.

Overall, you went from an ability that was a cheap solid spamable, sufficient self heal, and great group support (funnel morph) to one that is a weak spamable and weak self heal requiring the slotting of a second ability in most content that requires such. It will be worse next patch when you ditch DOT's for a light / spam-able diet. The lower damage will be totally unacceptable when that damage is so much of your total. Nobody has really played nb in raids for a while now though anyway. They broke it hard.

Deathlord92

Nightblade needs buffs especially magblade imo

GhostofDatthaw

I swear not a single dev plays or even knows how to magnb

Iskiab

exeeter702 wrote: »

OP, there is some misunderstandings here. Strifes healing component is % of damage done is healed every 2 seconds FOR 10 seconds, not over 10 seconds. The designed incentive to use the skill is that this is the only ability in a NBs kit that makes maximum use of NBs upt gen passive : recasting siphoning attacks nullifies the effect of its sustain restore, malevolent offering every 4 seconds can easily out you at risk of dying if you arent built for healing, cripples cost increases on top of dot damage being universally delayed with each applicaton makes it not wise to throw out any sooner than when it's going to drop off, sap essence while better, is still not as cheap and requires a target in close range and is really not usefull unless you are going to hit at least 3 targets.

Point is, if you want to maximize ult gen on a mag nb, there are no better options then swallow soul despite its numerous nerfs. In pve, there are close contenders for a spammable but weighing the ult gen vs marginally more dps is a crap shoot. In pvp, its application is problematic for a few reasons, however, if you are building to be sustainable and to kite, it's still the better option, if you are trying to build for max damage from range, force pulse MIGHT pull ahead but not by much, ele weapon is meh and only comes close when you count the orb passive. If you are playing a glass cannon setup, you are likely not playing at range or in sight for more than a few seconds, of which swallow soul is not even intended. On a healer or tanky damage build, it's generally 600hps provided you know where to apply it. The main issue is that the skill is not very smart and will not hang on to a stronger application of the hot when you refresh it on a target that mitigated the damage.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

OP, let me save you time and trouble. Swallow soul is hot garbage in pve and pvp. The only reasons to use it is for the Siphoning Passives.

Elemental weapon is better, force pulse is better, concealed weapon at least gives you speed.

Don’t even get me started on the other morph funnel health, basicly the same as the MagDK obsidian shard except it heals for less than half shard over 10 seconds and shard is an up front burst heal.

Swallow soul is okay for an overland spammable where you just need a little bit of healing, that’s about it.

Force pulse is not better (same damage, slightly less cost, but doesn't heal, doesn't generate ulti and doesn't provide passive for 8% magicka). Eleweapon... unless you have 50 ping and no lag, eleweapon works only within 10 meters, otherwise it is buggy and unstable. Concealed will be good with decreased cost.. but if you wanna go melee, you may just switch to stam. So I disagree about swallow soul being garbage in PVE. Wherever you are out of stack, it helps a lot, btw this is only available option of self-heal.

Maybe pve is different, but for pvp swallow soul is terrible. Yea you get the Siphoning passives, but if you slot another Siphoning ability on the same bar it’s redundant (like debilitate), the only passive you gain is 3% extra healing.

Force pulse is a sizeable dps increase. The cleave damage is a lot plus you get destro staff passives like penetration. Especially in pve the uptime of status effects on targets should be really high. Force pulse also benefits from hitting 3x for procs, one of each elemental damage type, and not being a projectile.

If that’s your only heal then yea, swallow soul is better than not having a heal. In pvp you’ll never be at pen cap without onslaught so expect the heal to be a lot lower. Usually with an 8k tooltip depending on the target you’ll get a 1k heal every two seconds. So about half the hps of refreshing path or dark cloak.

Oh for PVP of course swallow soul is meh, like all vampiric heals it receives quadruple reduction and we have resto back bar with much better options.

There is no quadruple reduction if you are implying one of those 4 reductions is battle spirit. The heal component is not reduced by BS and will ALWAYS heal for a % of the damage dealt. The only reduction is the damage via BS. So it is beholden to the same reductions as direct healing. That being said, I still believe "vampiric" heals should bypass the defiles.

It was? Stronger than crystal fragments? That’s hard to believe.

exeeter702

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

OP, there is some misunderstandings here. Strifes healing component is % of damage done is healed every 2 seconds FOR 10 seconds, not over 10 seconds. The designed incentive to use the skill is that this is the only ability in a NBs kit that makes maximum use of NBs upt gen passive : recasting siphoning attacks nullifies the effect of its sustain restore, malevolent offering every 4 seconds can easily out you at risk of dying if you arent built for healing, cripples cost increases on top of dot damage being universally delayed with each applicaton makes it not wise to throw out any sooner than when it's going to drop off, sap essence while better, is still not as cheap and requires a target in close range and is really not usefull unless you are going to hit at least 3 targets.

Point is, if you want to maximize ult gen on a mag nb, there are no better options then swallow soul despite its numerous nerfs. In pve, there are close contenders for a spammable but weighing the ult gen vs marginally more dps is a crap shoot. In pvp, its application is problematic for a few reasons, however, if you are building to be sustainable and to kite, it's still the better option, if you are trying to build for max damage from range, force pulse MIGHT pull ahead but not by much, ele weapon is meh and only comes close when you count the orb passive. If you are playing a glass cannon setup, you are likely not playing at range or in sight for more than a few seconds, of which swallow soul is not even intended. On a healer or tanky damage build, it's generally 600hps provided you know where to apply it. The main issue is that the skill is not very smart and will not hang on to a stronger application of the hot when you refresh it on a target that mitigated the damage.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

OP, let me save you time and trouble. Swallow soul is hot garbage in pve and pvp. The only reasons to use it is for the Siphoning Passives.

Elemental weapon is better, force pulse is better, concealed weapon at least gives you speed.

Don’t even get me started on the other morph funnel health, basicly the same as the MagDK obsidian shard except it heals for less than half shard over 10 seconds and shard is an up front burst heal.

Swallow soul is okay for an overland spammable where you just need a little bit of healing, that’s about it.

Force pulse is not better (same damage, slightly less cost, but doesn't heal, doesn't generate ulti and doesn't provide passive for 8% magicka). Eleweapon... unless you have 50 ping and no lag, eleweapon works only within 10 meters, otherwise it is buggy and unstable. Concealed will be good with decreased cost.. but if you wanna go melee, you may just switch to stam. So I disagree about swallow soul being garbage in PVE. Wherever you are out of stack, it helps a lot, btw this is only available option of self-heal.

Maybe pve is different, but for pvp swallow soul is terrible. Yea you get the Siphoning passives, but if you slot another Siphoning ability on the same bar it’s redundant (like debilitate), the only passive you gain is 3% extra healing.

Force pulse is a sizeable dps increase. The cleave damage is a lot plus you get destro staff passives like penetration. Especially in pve the uptime of status effects on targets should be really high. Force pulse also benefits from hitting 3x for procs, one of each elemental damage type, and not being a projectile.

If that’s your only heal then yea, swallow soul is better than not having a heal. In pvp you’ll never be at pen cap without onslaught so expect the heal to be a lot lower. Usually with an 8k tooltip depending on the target you’ll get a 1k heal every two seconds. So about half the hps of refreshing path or dark cloak.

Oh for PVP of course swallow soul is meh, like all vampiric heals it receives quadruple reduction and we have resto back bar with much better options.

There is no quadruple reduction if you are implying one of those 4 reductions is battle spirit. The heal component is not reduced by BS and will ALWAYS heal for a % of the damage dealt. The only reduction is the damage via BS. So it is beholden to the same reductions as direct healing. That being said, I still believe "vampiric" heals should bypass the defiles.

It was? Stronger than crystal fragments? That’s hard to believe.

Im not sure where you got that from.

Iskiab

exeeter702 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

OP, there is some misunderstandings here. Strifes healing component is % of damage done is healed every 2 seconds FOR 10 seconds, not over 10 seconds. The designed incentive to use the skill is that this is the only ability in a NBs kit that makes maximum use of NBs upt gen passive : recasting siphoning attacks nullifies the effect of its sustain restore, malevolent offering every 4 seconds can easily out you at risk of dying if you arent built for healing, cripples cost increases on top of dot damage being universally delayed with each applicaton makes it not wise to throw out any sooner than when it's going to drop off, sap essence while better, is still not as cheap and requires a target in close range and is really not usefull unless you are going to hit at least 3 targets.

Point is, if you want to maximize ult gen on a mag nb, there are no better options then swallow soul despite its numerous nerfs. In pve, there are close contenders for a spammable but weighing the ult gen vs marginally more dps is a crap shoot. In pvp, its application is problematic for a few reasons, however, if you are building to be sustainable and to kite, it's still the better option, if you are trying to build for max damage from range, force pulse MIGHT pull ahead but not by much, ele weapon is meh and only comes close when you count the orb passive. If you are playing a glass cannon setup, you are likely not playing at range or in sight for more than a few seconds, of which swallow soul is not even intended. On a healer or tanky damage build, it's generally 600hps provided you know where to apply it. The main issue is that the skill is not very smart and will not hang on to a stronger application of the hot when you refresh it on a target that mitigated the damage.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

OP, let me save you time and trouble. Swallow soul is hot garbage in pve and pvp. The only reasons to use it is for the Siphoning Passives.

Elemental weapon is better, force pulse is better, concealed weapon at least gives you speed.

Don’t even get me started on the other morph funnel health, basicly the same as the MagDK obsidian shard except it heals for less than half shard over 10 seconds and shard is an up front burst heal.

Swallow soul is okay for an overland spammable where you just need a little bit of healing, that’s about it.

Force pulse is not better (same damage, slightly less cost, but doesn't heal, doesn't generate ulti and doesn't provide passive for 8% magicka). Eleweapon... unless you have 50 ping and no lag, eleweapon works only within 10 meters, otherwise it is buggy and unstable. Concealed will be good with decreased cost.. but if you wanna go melee, you may just switch to stam. So I disagree about swallow soul being garbage in PVE. Wherever you are out of stack, it helps a lot, btw this is only available option of self-heal.

Maybe pve is different, but for pvp swallow soul is terrible. Yea you get the Siphoning passives, but if you slot another Siphoning ability on the same bar it’s redundant (like debilitate), the only passive you gain is 3% extra healing.

Force pulse is a sizeable dps increase. The cleave damage is a lot plus you get destro staff passives like penetration. Especially in pve the uptime of status effects on targets should be really high. Force pulse also benefits from hitting 3x for procs, one of each elemental damage type, and not being a projectile.

If that’s your only heal then yea, swallow soul is better than not having a heal. In pvp you’ll never be at pen cap without onslaught so expect the heal to be a lot lower. Usually with an 8k tooltip depending on the target you’ll get a 1k heal every two seconds. So about half the hps of refreshing path or dark cloak.

Oh for PVP of course swallow soul is meh, like all vampiric heals it receives quadruple reduction and we have resto back bar with much better options.

There is no quadruple reduction if you are implying one of those 4 reductions is battle spirit. The heal component is not reduced by BS and will ALWAYS heal for a % of the damage dealt. The only reduction is the damage via BS. So it is beholden to the same reductions as direct healing. That being said, I still believe "vampiric" heals should bypass the defiles.

It was? Stronger than crystal fragments? That’s hard to believe.

Im not sure where you got that from.

Misquote, someone mentioned funnel health was the strongest spammable in the game. I thought of dizzy and crystal fragments immediately and wondered if it was ever that strong.

universal_wrath

teladoy wrote: »

Swallow Soul:

Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters
Cost: 2700 Magicka

Skill description
Steal an enemy's life force, dealing 763 Magic Damage and healing you for 35% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds for 10 seconds.

New effect
Drastically increases damage. Heal is decreased and only targets self.


It heals the 35% of the damage over 10 long seconds... A spameable skill that heals over 10 very long seconds and only the 35% of the damage....

I always thought spameable abilities should make sense as spameable, that means if I use Swallow Soul in a row it benefits me in nothing excepting for the small first heal and the rest of the heals if I decide to disengage of combat.

I believe this mechanic make sense in other kind of abilities, like structured entropy but not in this one.

Maybe zos could review this skill and see if they can think in something better.

I think you misunderstood what the skill say or it is not clear. The skill gives you 35% of your dmg throughout the 10secs duration. Say you hit dmg for 10k, you heal would be around 3,3k over the duration every 2 secs. Meaning, you heal 3.3k every 2 secs and not 3.3k over 10 secs and that would be some around 660 every 2 secs.

I totaly understand the frustriation, since some time you crit for 20k and get huge heals and to hit again for 10k and heals are down. This factors in the out of combat or if you decided to leave combat. Not sure why heal dot on spammable, but then again, the skill i a shadow of it's former self, nowhere as good as it used to be.

Sahidom

As a spammable skill you overwrite the heal effect. Its poorly designed since it's the only class kit spammable for Magnb.

Honestly, it would be awesome to change the skill to the following:

dealing [x] magic damage and restores health equal to 35% [or x%] of the damage inflicted.

Where you actually stealing life-force that restores health to you, or two others with Funnel Health morph. The percentage would need adjusting since restores are not treated the same than healing under Battle Spirit.

Iskiab

Sahidom wrote: »

As a spammable skill you overwrite the heal effect. Its poorly designed since it's the only class kit spammable for Magnb.

Honestly, it would be awesome to change the skill to the following:

dealing [x] magic damage and restores health equal to 35% [or x%] of the damage inflicted.

Where you actually stealing life-force that restores health to you, or two others with Funnel Health morph. The percentage would need adjusting since restores are not treated the same than healing under Battle Spirit.

I think NBs underestimate how much funnel health sucks because they’re trying to make sense out of something that makes no sense.

The new DK shard is less damage but will heal two targets for a 10-13k tooltip in a pvp healer spec with major mending. For funnel health to be comparable in pvp it would have to be heals target for 6x or so the damage it does right away.

the1andonlyskwex

People comparing Funnel Health to Obsidian Shard are making the wrong comparison. Obsidian Shard is a DK healer's burst heal, while Funnel Health is a heal over time. Speaking as someone who has both DK and NB healers, I basically use Funnel Health as an alternative to Radiating Regeneration, and Obsidian Shard as an alternative to Healing Ward (or Healthy Offering, if comparing directly to my Nightblade).

That said, the nerfs to Funnel Health a couple of years ago are pretty much the reason I leveled my DK healer in the first place. Funnel Health used to combine extremely cheap direct damage with a powerful multi-target HoT. Now, the cost is doubled, the damage is halved, and the healing is reduced significantly because of the reduction in damage.

While the cost nerf was certainly warranted (it used to do the same damage as every other class spammable, while costing half as much), the other nerfs (combined with the removal of damage from Refreshing Path) pretty much gutted the "deal damage to heal" playstyle that drew me to play a NB in the first place.

Sahidom

Iskiab wrote: »

I think NBs underestimate how much funnel health sucks because they’re trying to make sense out of something that makes no sense.

The new DK shard is less damage but will heal two targets for a 10-13k tooltip in a pvp healer spec with major mending. For funnel health to be comparable in pvp it would have to be heals target for 6x or so the damage it does right away.

Funnel Health does suck. I agree with @the1andonlyskwex the cost change was warranted but the other changes gutted the "deal damage to heal" play style. This was one attraction of the class that started the "blood mage" magBlade builds when the game launched.

vesselwiththepestle

I never understood how the heal from Swallow Soul works. Maybe it's because players in game tell me I have to spam it, while the description indicates a hot and not a one-time-heal.

Do I get the heal from the damage I did with Swallow Soul, and I get a hot according to the one hit I did?

Or does any damage count and I just have to damage the enemy to get a heal, while it wouldn't matter how I damage the enemy? Which means all my dots running would support the hot from Swallow Soul?