Ppl asking for buff in MagDK PvP - I don't get it

ZarkingFrued

jcm2606 wrote: »

Frooke wrote: »

Dks got the strongest Dots in game

Now slightly nerfed in damage, and hugely nerfed in cost.

Frooke wrote: »

the best offensive/defensive Ult (Ferocious Leap)

Ferocious Leap is pretty damn good, but I wouldn't consider it the best. Offensively, it is a solid ult that offers high burst with long-ish range, as well as a knockback/stun, but that's about it. Compare to Onslaught which would have about the same burst (when you account for the lack of mitigation from resists with Onslaught), but trades the stun and range for basically max pen to direct damage attacks (ie burst) for 5 seconds (as of the latest PTS), while also still being usable on mag (especially in non-CP), as it gives phys and spell pen, and scales with max stat since it's an ult.

Defensively, it does give a large damage shield and some healing through Battle Roar, but that's it. The healing is abysmal if you've used it as a defensive ult, and while the damage shield is pretty damn big, you could use the resto ult and get a comparable damage shield at low health, with a *** ton of burst and over-time healing.

Frooke wrote: »

the best stun ability (Petrify, considering it got immobilize, and damage too)

Which costs 4k mag at base (fine on magDK, unusable on stamDK), and the immunity protection is being removed next patch (the skill wouldn't let you cast it on a target with CC immunity up, to avoid wasting magicka).

Frooke wrote: »

one of the best spammable abilities

Eh, it's alright. The skill itself in a vacuum is strong, and both morphs make it even stronger, but it doesn't really synergise with the rest of your kit, unlike other class spammables (Nightblade grants max mag, healing done, and some ult gen; Templar grants crit damage, extra damage against blocking targets, Minor Protection for 6 seconds, and basically a free burst skill on top of the spammable; etc).

Both morphs are also fairly telegraphed in how they work, making them easier to counter. Molten requires building the stacks up to amp the damage up, giving your opponent time to counter. Lash is gated behind a CC -> Lash combo in order to get the proc, so a player can break a Petrify and immediately block/dodge the actual Power Lash proc, wasting some resources and a GCD on the part of the DK.

Frooke wrote: »

you don't even have to LA between skills

Uhh, what? Firstly, there's nothing forcing you to LA between other spammables, so this argument works just as well against anything else. Secondly, not LA'ing between whip casts means you're missing out on a ton of free damage, enchant procs, and ult gen.

Frooke wrote: »

and you can use while blocking too

With the exception of skills with a cast time or a channel (I think), you can use other skills through block, too.

Frooke wrote: »

As if it wasn't enough to put a lot of pressure in fights, they now got an EXECUTE, easy and fast to proc

No they don't. Molten is a stacking buff mechanic, similar to Grim Focus or the new Bound Armaments, so you can't be referring to Molten. I can't think of anything else that you'd be thinking of, but they absolutely do not have an execute, not even in the upcoming patch.

Frooke wrote: »

just put on your dots, or spam some cauterize, Leap and Whip and than BOOM! 20k DAMAGE!

Most other classes have access to combos that are just as easy to pull off.

With magplar, you put some DoT's on a target, put Purifying on them, Eclipse them, spam jabs until Purifying is about to explode, then hit beam as Purifying explodes.

With magsorc, you put a DoT or two on your target, put a Curse on your target, hit them with the execute, meteor, streak through them, they should all hit roughly at the same time, target goes boom.

With stamden, you put a DoT or two on your target, put down a Sub Assault, Dizzy, Onslaught, execute, and sub assault should hit roughly as the Onslaught/execute hits, dealing a *** ton of burst that can two-shot people.

DK is honestly pretty tame in comparison.

Frooke wrote: »

But you can block this combo, right? -No! Because you will be fossilized first.

Assuming everything works as it should (if it doesn't, nothing to do with DK, everything to do with the game being shite), Petrify just guarantees that the next attack will land, if you break out of it as soon as you can.

With a DK running Lash, that's going to be an unbuffed Flame Lash to proc Power Lash, followed by a Leap (to ensure it lands, since it's the most expensive part of the combo), following by the buffed Power Lash proc. Break the stun then immediately block/dodge, and you haven't even taken much damage, since you countered the real meat of the combo.

With a DK running Molten, that's going to be Leap, followed by a buffed up Molten. Break the stun then immediately block/dodge, and you would have taken the Leap, but countered the Molten.

Frooke wrote: »

they got Cauterize, that can be spammable and heal the same as a Templar BoL

Uhh, what? Looking at the base heal (tooltips don't mean *** when you can just cheese them and make up numbers to fit your agenda), Cauterize has a base heal of 636, while BoL has a base heal of 1233 (Honor the Dead a bit higher, with 1273). BoL heals for nearly double the amount as Cauterise, while Cauterise costs nearly half as much as BoL.

You're also guaranteed to get the heal from BoL, while Cauterize acts as a smart heal, going to the lowest health ally nearby (if there's an ally in the BoL cone that'd steal the heal from you, pretty sure looking down forces BoL to heal you).

Frooke wrote: »

they got Dragon Blood

Honestly only good when you're in execute range and need to get back to basically max health now. Costs nearly as much as BoL (Coag costs 4320 mag at base, BoL costs 4590), but has a 2k lower tooltip with the same build that I ran on my DK (Pariah, Spinner's, Bloodspawn, just the same to avoid any tooltip shenanigans) outside of execute range, while only having a 300 higher tooltip in execute range.

About the same cost when you consider cost reduction (difference is like 80-100 mag), but 2k lower tooltip out of execute range, and only 300 higher tooltip in execute range. Not that great.

Frooke wrote: »

Burning Embers

The Embers heal is great in a pinch, but is really only an "oh ***" heal if you have it up on a target and it's been on them for a while. It requires active preparation and time to build up, sorta like Rally, but is tied to each target you're fighting. It's also being nerfed next patch, as it's tied to the damage dealt by the skill, and the damage dealt is going down in a few different ways.

Frooke wrote: »

Protective Scales

While it's pretty good when fighting outnumbered, it's nothing compared to what it used to be, and the effect is pretty diminished when you get into stacking high mitigation. Remember that mitigation is multiplicative, so the 50% it says on the tooltip would actually be maybe 10-20-ish% on a high mitigation build, comparing the fully mitigated damage to the unmitigated damage.

Frooke wrote: »

and sometimes they run a resto staff too.

So can the 5 other classes, though, so that's not really a good argument now, is it? Hell, could run resto on Templar, which has even more healing.

Frooke wrote: »

So I don't get it, why does ppl keeping ask for buffs in DK?

Maybe because the people playing it are noticing things you aren't? Maybe because, y'know, playing it actually gives you the full picture, as opposed to the things you want to see based on your observations of the class from playing on the receiving end all the time?

DK offense is heavily tied into DoT pressure (which is being nerfed), ult combos (which are expensive), and CC (which is bound to be nerfed eventually, because this is Elder Scrolls Online, and the Elder Scrolls Online community always cries about strong skills).

DK defense/mitigation is heavily tied into block (a dead playstyle, with the myriad of nerfs over the years and abundance of anti-block mechanics such as oblivion damage, heavy DoT application draining stam rapidly, and sets that punish blocking), passives that are lopsided towards spell resists as opposed to phys resists (you legit end up having like 3-4k more spell resists than phys resists on a magDK), and mechanics that were deemed too OP to stay despite being fun and unique (wings in particular).

DK healing, despite appearing to have an abundance of heals, is pretty meh, if we're being honest. Cauterise is fine, but it's on a 5 second timer and doesn't heal for much. Coag is only really good as a heal to get you out of execute range, else you're left just spamming it, throwing resources down the drain. Embers requires a target to both start the heal building up and to get the heal (unless you let it time out naturally), and requires time to build up, and is tied to the damage you deal. Power Lash is fairly short, and is gated behind a CC, and an extra Flame Lash cast to access Power Lash, which makes it very telegraphed. Using Leap to honestly doesn't heal for that much, it seriously feels as if it goes through Battle Spirit.

DK sustain is pretty crap, despite having a passive that restores resources on ult usage, because of a few different reasons. The class crutches pretty heavily on comboing with your ult so you can't build up enough ult to get a huge burst of resources back, there's not much ult gen built in the class to synergise with the sustain-through-ult-usage mechanic, skills are pretty expensive and keep getting more expensive, the other sustain mechanic is tied to pure RNG that the class offers no help with (applying status effects), etc.

Jump on a DK, both mag and stam (stamDK does exist, despite the devs clearly wanting to kill it with Poop Fist), spend some time with it in both CP and non-CP (I've found they perform very differently between the two), and you'll get the full picture.

Pretty much covers it

NBrookus

Just going to add to jcm2606's excellent coverage that Akinos isn't even using Cauterize.

Iskiab

Vapirko wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Mag DKs tend to be either super down to earth or complete d bags who think they have the worst PvP class and get up all in your face about it if they beat you like they’re not one of the best 1v1 classes.

Unless you been in their shoes, or Sabatons in most DKs case, you don't know the struggle. The MDK must have been running silks of the sun spinners and balrog and would get blown over if fighting someone a little more skilled.

I have a mag DK that I use fairly often. Honestly they’re pretty strong imo. Tough class to play well but still strong. 1v1 they’re great. Definitely more difficult to 1vX though, and group play they don’t offer a whole lot I guess. A bit of a selfish class.

Did, I’d use past tense. Shard is going to be amazing group healing.

Main issue remains sustain, that’s it.

Miloscpolski

Frooke wrote: »

Well, I'm seeing a lot of ppl asking for old wings back, crying about dots, asking for buffs in a strong class, and I have to ask -Are we playing the same game?

Some days ago, I was fighting against a MagDK, testing an Armor Master build, than i got this:



Considering I'm not a vampire and I was with 25k resist and 3.2k crit resist.

That became recurrent.



So I got really upset, and I started to figure out what was going on, so I've found many builds in this patch like this one (with time refference for the Molten Whip part) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--RYtpq4_ec&feature=youtu.be&t=635

Dks got the strongest Dots in game, the best offensive/defensive Ult (Ferocious Leap), the best stun ability (Petrify, considering it got immobilize, and damage too), one of the best spammable abilities, you don't even have to LA between skills, and you can use while blocking too. As if it wasn't enough to put a lot of pressure in fights, they now got an EXECUTE, easy and fast to proc, just put on your dots, or spam some cauterize, Leap and Whip and than BOOM! 20k DAMAGE! But you can block this combo, right? -No! Because you will be fossilized first.

Yeah, but a DK that hits so hard doesn't have a good survivability, right? -Not from what I have experienced, because they got Cauterize, that can be spammable and heal the same as a Templar BoL, they got Dragon Blood, Burning Embers, Protective Scales, and sometimes they run a resto staff too.

So I don't get it, why does ppl keeping ask for buffs in DK? If you play as a MagDK, be honest, are you having any difficult to kill any class in the game, but Magplars?

I don't know what you are doing @Quantum_V , but you should take a look at this and balance it for the next patch, DKs are unkillable and they are hitting harder than a truck

and where does the *** scalebreaker patch? Complaints are coming about the next patch, and for your opponent to have such damage, you need to spend a lot of effort on this, unlike for example magicka templar, play the magica dk in the next patch to find out all the pain that we experience on the magica dk

lucky_Sage

Play a Magdk and come back to us magdks ha e the highest costing abilities in game 3 stacks of searing hits as hard as frags and assassins will and both of those classes can hit you wi Th ther spammable and *** or assassins will pretty close together and they have a execute to finish you if you don’t die. Explain why molten whips is better and leap makes a dk very open to attacks don’t attack or defend while lepaing

Iskiab

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Play a Magdk and come back to us magdks ha e the highest costing abilities in game 3 stacks of searing hits as hard as frags and assassins will and both of those classes can hit you wi Th ther spammable and *** or assassins will pretty close together and they have a execute to finish you if you don’t die. Explain why molten whips is better and leap makes a dk very open to attacks don’t attack or defend while lepaing

What? Can’t attack or defend while leaping? You call that a class weakness?

Only MagDK issue is sustain. The class sustains by using ultimates so plays a little differently. Making up dumb complaints doesn’t help support your opinion.

robpr

Iskiab wrote: »

What? Can’t attack or defend while leaping?

It's true, but it apply only to very rare situations when you are hit mid-leap by Flame Clench, Javelin or Drain Shot. So nothing.

Jodynn

robpr wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

What? Can’t attack or defend while leaping?

It's true, but it apply only to very rare situations when you are hit mid-leap by Flame Clench, Javelin or Drain Shot. So nothing.

I've died several times mid leap during the 1 second transition. It is a weakness.

Lokey0024

I heard to use assassins will now you have to use Ambush 3 times in 5 seconds, but it's cool cuz the timer resets every cast.

Jodynn

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I heard to use assassins will now you have to use Ambush 3 times in 5 seconds, but it's cool cuz the timer resets every cast.

That's a funny comparison but not a 1-1 comparison, molten whip is easy to moderate; Also Nightblade is so dead right now.

Lokey0024

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I heard to use assassins will now you have to use Ambush 3 times in 5 seconds, but it's cool cuz the timer resets every cast.

That's a funny comparison but not a 1-1 comparison, molten whip is easy to moderate; Also Nightblade is so dead right now.

Tounge n Cheek. Just like a NB main to try and sneak hijack a thread 😜

Jodynn

Lokey0024 wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

I heard to use assassins will now you have to use Ambush 3 times in 5 seconds, but it's cool cuz the timer resets every cast.

That's a funny comparison but not a 1-1 comparison, molten whip is easy to moderate; Also Nightblade is so dead right now.

Tounge n Cheek. Just like a NB main to try and sneak hijack a thread 😜

Gotta be good at something right?

lucky_Sage

Iskiab wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Play a Magdk and come back to us magdks ha e the highest costing abilities in game 3 stacks of searing hits as hard as frags and assassins will and both of those classes can hit you wi Th ther spammable and *** or assassins will pretty close together and they have a execute to finish you if you don’t die. Explain why molten whips is better and leap makes a dk very open to attacks don’t attack or defend while lepaing

What? Can’t attack or defend while leaping? You call that a class weakness?

Only MagDK issue is sustain. The class sustains by using ultimates so plays a little differently. Making up dumb complaints doesn’t help support your opinion.

@Iskiab
Not saying not able to attack or defend while leap is a defend I was saying that other burst ults are better mostly 2h.
I was mostly saying how is whip stronger than other spammable a or burst dmg abilities when other classes high dmg burst abilities can be paired with others abilities unlike a dks whip.
Dks needs sustain what I say the most and need a slight defensive buff bexuase sunless we are a perma blocking build they aren’t as ranks as other classes with better defensive abilities

Iskiab

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Play a Magdk and come back to us magdks ha e the highest costing abilities in game 3 stacks of searing hits as hard as frags and assassins will and both of those classes can hit you wi Th ther spammable and *** or assassins will pretty close together and they have a execute to finish you if you don’t die. Explain why molten whips is better and leap makes a dk very open to attacks don’t attack or defend while lepaing

What? Can’t attack or defend while leaping? You call that a class weakness?

Only MagDK issue is sustain. The class sustains by using ultimates so plays a little differently. Making up dumb complaints doesn’t help support your opinion.

@Iskiab
Not saying not able to attack or defend while leap is a defend I was saying that other burst ults are better mostly 2h.
I was mostly saying how is whip stronger than other spammable a or burst dmg abilities when other classes high dmg burst abilities can be paired with others abilities unlike a dks whip.
Dks needs sustain what I say the most and need a slight defensive buff bexuase sunless we are a perma blocking build they aren’t as ranks as other classes with better defensive abilities

Ah okay, yes that makes sense. DKs have self healing up the wazoo but no access to minor or major protection in the class toolkit.

If you’re crazy rich you can use protection, heroism and x pots but keeping that up would be crazy. Best bet is to use BRP dw on your back bar and jorvlunds like I’m planning on doing, but it’s all theoretical until the patch. Doable as a healer but IDK as a dps, it’s not like dps will want to spam shard for the 1k stamina return per hit.