Ppl asking for buff in MagDK PvP - I don't get it

Frooke

Well, I'm seeing a lot of ppl asking for old wings back, crying about dots, asking for buffs in a strong class, and I have to ask -Are we playing the same game?

Some days ago, I was fighting against a MagDK, testing an Armor Master build, than i got this:



Considering I'm not a vampire and I was with 25k resist and 3.2k crit resist.

That became recurrent.



So I got really upset, and I started to figure out what was going on, so I've found many builds in this patch like this one (with time refference for the Molten Whip part) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--RYtpq4_ec&feature=youtu.be&t=635

Dks got the strongest Dots in game, the best offensive/defensive Ult (Ferocious Leap), the best stun ability (Petrify, considering it got immobilize, and damage too), one of the best spammable abilities, you don't even have to LA between skills, and you can use while blocking too. As if it wasn't enough to put a lot of pressure in fights, they now got an EXECUTE, easy and fast to proc, just put on your dots, or spam some cauterize, Leap and Whip and than BOOM! 20k DAMAGE! But you can block this combo, right? -No! Because you will be fossilized first.

Yeah, but a DK that hits so hard doesn't have a good survivability, right? -Not from what I have experienced, because they got Cauterize, that can be spammable and heal the same as a Templar BoL, they got Dragon Blood, Burning Embers, Protective Scales, and sometimes they run a resto staff too.

So I don't get it, why does ppl keeping ask for buffs in DK? If you play as a MagDK, be honest, are you having any difficult to kill any class in the game, but Magplars?

I don't know what you are doing @Quantum_V , but you should take a look at this and balance it for the next patch, DKs are unkillable and they are hitting harder than a truck

Austinseph1

Before you have a voice in balance you need to first make and play a MagDK and then you can show what is and what isn't OP. Textbook "It killed me so it needs a nerf." Balancing a class around a single facet, much less 1v1 against a glass cannon that outplayed Is precisely how you create imbalance in a game and exactly why these posts should not have a hand on balance because "You fought a class and lost".

the1andonlyskwex

My only comment is that the second guy obviously doesn't have Cauterize.

BattleAxe

Keep in mind this is happening on live OP as is after pts goes live as it stands now magdk probably won’t be able to buy a kill

Frooke

I not a fan of duels, I play Cyrodiil in most of time, so I'm not talking about 1v1, both of this prints was in Cyrodiil. MagDKs is strong in openworld as it always was, but now they have a strong combo, they just lack mobility, like any other mag class in the game, but magsorc, and many are mitigating this with Race Against Time or Mist Form. If you play as a MagDK, you should explain why DK needs more buffs. What about this build? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdwzmA3aC80 It doesn't look a glass canon to me. Its not a "It killed me so it needs a nerf", it's more like a "You put an execute in MagDK, it's overperforming, balance it".

NekoN3ko

Sustain is a *** with MagDK. To beat a MagDK one must understand one. They lots of shortcomings and weaknesses to be exploited.

Zer0_CooL

"Arrrrgh it killed me nerf it Zos!!" L2P buddy🤣

Jodynn

Delete this post it's non constructive and ignorant to understanding what perspective they don't have.

Joy_Division

@Akinos please stop farming the PuGs

Ramber

Frooke wrote: »

I not a fan of duels, I play Cyrodiil in most of time, so I'm not talking about 1v1, both of this prints was in Cyrodiil. MagDKs is strong in openworld as it always was, but now they have a strong combo, they just lack mobility, like any other mag class in the game, but magsorc, and many are mitigating this with Race Against Time or Mist Form. If you play as a MagDK, you should explain why DK needs more buffs. What about this build? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdwzmA3aC80 It doesn't look a glass canon to me. Its not a "It killed me so it needs a nerf", it's more like a "You put an execute in MagDK, it's overperforming, balance it".

anyone else belive this? and y the music LOL

SipofMaim

You read all those complaints about wings and completely missed the point. You read all those threads talking about what things will be like next patch and somehow thought they were about this patch, I guess?

So I can see why you're confused, but I don't think we can help you.

Akinos

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Akinos please stop farming the PuGs

lol xD

relentless_turnip

Frooke wrote: »

Well, I'm seeing a lot of ppl asking for old wings back, crying about dots, asking for buffs in a strong class, and I have to ask -Are we playing the same game?

Some days ago, I was fighting against a MagDK, testing an Armor Master build, than i got this:



Considering I'm not a vampire and I was with 25k resist and 3.2k crit resist.

That became recurrent.



So I got really upset, and I started to figure out what was going on, so I've found many builds in this patch like this one (with time refference for the Molten Whip part) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--RYtpq4_ec&feature=youtu.be&t=635

Dks got the strongest Dots in game, the best offensive/defensive Ult (Ferocious Leap), the best stun ability (Petrify, considering it got immobilize, and damage too), one of the best spammable abilities, you don't even have to LA between skills, and you can use while blocking too. As if it wasn't enough to put a lot of pressure in fights, they now got an EXECUTE, easy and fast to proc, just put on your dots, or spam some cauterize, Leap and Whip and than BOOM! 20k DAMAGE! But you can block this combo, right? -No! Because you will be fossilized first.

Yeah, but a DK that hits so hard doesn't have a good survivability, right? -Not from what I have experienced, because they got Cauterize, that can be spammable and heal the same as a Templar BoL, they got Dragon Blood, Burning Embers, Protective Scales, and sometimes they run a resto staff too.

So I don't get it, why does ppl keeping ask for buffs in DK? If you play as a MagDK, be honest, are you having any difficult to kill any class in the game, but Magplars?

I don't know what you are doing @Quantum_V , but you should take a look at this and balance it for the next patch, DKs are unkillable and they are hitting harder than a truck

What in blue bloody *** is this?!?

Another nerf thread by someone recently killed by a class/skill/passive/mob while afk?!.

Well hey i died in Craglorn the other day, I took 80k fall damage.
Should ZOS nerf fall damage or should i learn how not to fall off cliffs?

You'll notice this thread is unique in terms of its complaints, because unfortunately these are just your complaints mate.
The same with the odd person asking for cloak to be nerfed or 'volley is too strong'.

I think when the community are saying the same thing, i.e. costs are too high, dot damage is still too low etc...
That's when the developer needs to step in, when they have to sift through 100+ threads just like this one...
Well we are harming and slowing down any potential progress that can be made.

Learn to counter or build a counter, this game is amazing for that.
If it was WOW you would just have to accept certain classes will always have an advantage over your class.

I would love it if instead of these forum's being utilised for nerf requests, that people would come on here and asked for advice.
On tactics, on builds etc... I promise you would get so much more out of it than this.

There is a bloody treasure trove of experience on here! although that isn't immediately evident sometimes

Vapirko

Mag DKs tend to be either super down to earth or complete d bags who think they have the worst PvP class and get up all in your face about it if they beat you like they’re not one of the best 1v1 classes.

Lokey0024

So this guy hit you with a fiery breath, 2 spams of Foo, a ult and the "execute" while you were doing....what exactly?

This is our super OP burst combo guys. 5 seconds.

And the best part, had you not just stood there what was the MDK next move? A 3k molten whip?

The first death feed, you weren't buffed. In light armor. Debuffed.

Vildebill

What were you doing when that MagDK spammed FoO to buff up his whip? There's a thing called counter play in PvP.

Threads like this are so ridiculous, I don't know why I even bother.

Lokey0024

Vapirko wrote: »

Mag DKs tend to be either super down to earth or complete d bags who think they have the worst PvP class and get up all in your face about it if they beat you like they’re not one of the best 1v1 classes.

Unless you been in their shoes, or Sabatons in most DKs case, you don't know the struggle. The MDK must have been running silks of the sun spinners and balrog and would get blown over if fighting someone a little more skilled.

MartiniDaniels

OP, all you saw in recap is already nerfed for 10% in terms of direct damage and for 40% in dot part. Chill. And what's problematic in 6k leap and 7k whip at second screenshot? those are very moderate values probably from tanky build...NB's bow, frags, average ultis, they all hit same 6-7k on tanky vs tanky.
And 25k resists aren't that much, especially in CP environment.

juhislihis19

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

OP, all you saw in recap is already nerfed for 10% in terms of direct damage and for 40% in dot part. Chill. And what's problematic in 6k leap and 7k whip at second screenshot? those are very moderate values probably from tanky build...NB's bow, frags, average ultis, they all hit same 6-7k on tanky vs tanky.
And 25k resists aren't that much, especially in CP environment.

Yeah I'd agree that 25k resistances are about the minimum you want to have..

mursie

i agree with the first responder. please, roll this class and play it in no-cp bg's. let us then hear all about how OP you believe it still is.

that said - yes, fossilize is absolutely the best CC in game.

Skander

Don't be a vampire. It's vampire that's literally useless.

relentless_turnip

Skander wrote: »

Don't be a vampire. It's vampire that's literally useless.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this?

You get 10% more recovery, take up to 33% less damage under 50%

For loss of health recovery and 20% more fire damage (14% if you are dunmer).
No one runs dawn breaker anymore which makes the benefits pretty fantastic.

I am magdk vampire and I still normally win against most other magdks 😁

Mist form is amazing too!

BlackMadara

@Frooke There are a few misconceptions in your OP.
-mag DK does not have an execute. Molten whip build stacks based on other skills used that increase it's own damage, up to 99%. That 10k whip you took was a buffed whip. It does not deal more damage with lower hp.

-anybody permablocking, and not light attacking, loses a ton of dps. Light attacks with the right weapon deal a lot of relative damage.

- you claim to have 25k resists with armor master. I believe your buff management was poor. Assuming cp allocation of 20% reduced direct damage and 10% reduced magic damage, using the 3500 non crit FoO you took, I'll calculate its original tooltip to give an indication of the build you are fighting.

3500 / (.8 x .9)= 4861
Engulfing flames debuff 4861 / 1.1= 4419
Battle spirit 4419 / .5 = 8838

I have a build with about 7550 total spell power fully buffed(max mag/10.5 + spell damage) and my tooltip for FoO is 8862. Which happens to be extremely close to the value calculated. This build has 10k spell pen and uses major breach, totalling to 15k effective spell pen.

If you are at 25k resists fully buffed with armor master, that means you'd be around 15k without it procced and not having your major resolve up, which happens to be the exact spell pen that damage oriented builds shoot for.

In short, your buff management was poor against a relatively high damage build, and you would died to any other well played build and combo.

Vapirko

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Mag DKs tend to be either super down to earth or complete d bags who think they have the worst PvP class and get up all in your face about it if they beat you like they’re not one of the best 1v1 classes.

Unless you been in their shoes, or Sabatons in most DKs case, you don't know the struggle. The MDK must have been running silks of the sun spinners and balrog and would get blown over if fighting someone a little more skilled.

I have a mag DK that I use fairly often. Honestly they’re pretty strong imo. Tough class to play well but still strong. 1v1 they’re great. Definitely more difficult to 1vX though, and group play they don’t offer a whole lot I guess. A bit of a selfish class.

WillhelmBlack

OMG you died. Are you OK?

fred4

Frooke wrote: »

I not a fan of duels.

That's where your problem is! Playing mag DK yourself would be ideal, but if you - understandably - don't want to level every class, you have to at least duel every class. You have to fight in consistent conditions against people of different skill levels before you can draw conclusions on class balance.

If you have no duelling experience and you're on PC EU, go to Bergama in Alik'r Desert. You will very likely find that almost every player, there, will whoop your a s $ within 20 seconds, regardless of class. In Cyro people tend to build tankier, or for more sustain, but an experienced dueller will still kill you.

What class are you playing anyway?

jcm2606

Frooke wrote: »

Dks got the strongest Dots in game

Now slightly nerfed in damage, and hugely nerfed in cost.

Frooke wrote: »

the best offensive/defensive Ult (Ferocious Leap)

Ferocious Leap is pretty damn good, but I wouldn't consider it the best. Offensively, it is a solid ult that offers high burst with long-ish range, as well as a knockback/stun, but that's about it. Compare to Onslaught which would have about the same burst (when you account for the lack of mitigation from resists with Onslaught), but trades the stun and range for basically max pen to direct damage attacks (ie burst) for 5 seconds (as of the latest PTS), while also still being usable on mag (especially in non-CP), as it gives phys and spell pen, and scales with max stat since it's an ult.

Defensively, it does give a large damage shield and some healing through Battle Roar, but that's it. The healing is abysmal if you've used it as a defensive ult, and while the damage shield is pretty damn big, you could use the resto ult and get a comparable damage shield at low health, with a *** ton of burst and over-time healing.

Frooke wrote: »

the best stun ability (Petrify, considering it got immobilize, and damage too)

Which costs 4k mag at base (fine on magDK, unusable on stamDK), and the immunity protection is being removed next patch (the skill wouldn't let you cast it on a target with CC immunity up, to avoid wasting magicka).

Frooke wrote: »

one of the best spammable abilities

Eh, it's alright. The skill itself in a vacuum is strong, and both morphs make it even stronger, but it doesn't really synergise with the rest of your kit, unlike other class spammables (Nightblade grants max mag, healing done, and some ult gen; Templar grants crit damage, extra damage against blocking targets, Minor Protection for 6 seconds, and basically a free burst skill on top of the spammable; etc).

Both morphs are also fairly telegraphed in how they work, making them easier to counter. Molten requires building the stacks up to amp the damage up, giving your opponent time to counter. Lash is gated behind a CC -> Lash combo in order to get the proc, so a player can break a Petrify and immediately block/dodge the actual Power Lash proc, wasting some resources and a GCD on the part of the DK.

Frooke wrote: »

you don't even have to LA between skills

Uhh, what? Firstly, there's nothing forcing you to LA between other spammables, so this argument works just as well against anything else. Secondly, not LA'ing between whip casts means you're missing out on a ton of free damage, enchant procs, and ult gen.

Frooke wrote: »

and you can use while blocking too

With the exception of skills with a cast time or a channel (I think), you can use other skills through block, too.

Frooke wrote: »

As if it wasn't enough to put a lot of pressure in fights, they now got an EXECUTE, easy and fast to proc

No they don't. Molten is a stacking buff mechanic, similar to Grim Focus or the new Bound Armaments, so you can't be referring to Molten. I can't think of anything else that you'd be thinking of, but they absolutely do not have an execute, not even in the upcoming patch.

Frooke wrote: »

just put on your dots, or spam some cauterize, Leap and Whip and than BOOM! 20k DAMAGE!

Most other classes have access to combos that are just as easy to pull off.

With magplar, you put some DoT's on a target, put Purifying on them, Eclipse them, spam jabs until Purifying is about to explode, then hit beam as Purifying explodes.

With magsorc, you put a DoT or two on your target, put a Curse on your target, hit them with the execute, meteor, streak through them, they should all hit roughly at the same time, target goes boom.

With stamden, you put a DoT or two on your target, put down a Sub Assault, Dizzy, Onslaught, execute, and sub assault should hit roughly as the Onslaught/execute hits, dealing a *** ton of burst that can two-shot people.

DK is honestly pretty tame in comparison.

Frooke wrote: »

But you can block this combo, right? -No! Because you will be fossilized first.

Assuming everything works as it should (if it doesn't, nothing to do with DK, everything to do with the game being shite), Petrify just guarantees that the next attack will land, if you break out of it as soon as you can.

With a DK running Lash, that's going to be an unbuffed Flame Lash to proc Power Lash, followed by a Leap (to ensure it lands, since it's the most expensive part of the combo), following by the buffed Power Lash proc. Break the stun then immediately block/dodge, and you haven't even taken much damage, since you countered the real meat of the combo.

With a DK running Molten, that's going to be Leap, followed by a buffed up Molten. Break the stun then immediately block/dodge, and you would have taken the Leap, but countered the Molten.

Frooke wrote: »

they got Cauterize, that can be spammable and heal the same as a Templar BoL

Uhh, what? Looking at the base heal (tooltips don't mean *** when you can just cheese them and make up numbers to fit your agenda), Cauterize has a base heal of 636, while BoL has a base heal of 1233 (Honor the Dead a bit higher, with 1273). BoL heals for nearly double the amount as Cauterise, while Cauterise costs nearly half as much as BoL.

You're also guaranteed to get the heal from BoL, while Cauterize acts as a smart heal, going to the lowest health ally nearby (if there's an ally in the BoL cone that'd steal the heal from you, pretty sure looking down forces BoL to heal you).

Frooke wrote: »

they got Dragon Blood

Honestly only good when you're in execute range and need to get back to basically max health now. Costs nearly as much as BoL (Coag costs 4320 mag at base, BoL costs 4590), but has a 2k lower tooltip with the same build that I ran on my DK (Pariah, Spinner's, Bloodspawn, just the same to avoid any tooltip shenanigans) outside of execute range, while only having a 300 higher tooltip in execute range.

About the same cost when you consider cost reduction (difference is like 80-100 mag), but 2k lower tooltip out of execute range, and only 300 higher tooltip in execute range. Not that great.

Frooke wrote: »

Burning Embers

The Embers heal is great in a pinch, but is really only an "oh ***" heal if you have it up on a target and it's been on them for a while. It requires active preparation and time to build up, sorta like Rally, but is tied to each target you're fighting. It's also being nerfed next patch, as it's tied to the damage dealt by the skill, and the damage dealt is going down in a few different ways.

Frooke wrote: »

Protective Scales

While it's pretty good when fighting outnumbered, it's nothing compared to what it used to be, and the effect is pretty diminished when you get into stacking high mitigation. Remember that mitigation is multiplicative, so the 50% it says on the tooltip would actually be maybe 10-20-ish% on a high mitigation build, comparing the fully mitigated damage to the unmitigated damage.

Frooke wrote: »

and sometimes they run a resto staff too.

So can the 5 other classes, though, so that's not really a good argument now, is it? Hell, could run resto on Templar, which has even more healing.

Frooke wrote: »

So I don't get it, why does ppl keeping ask for buffs in DK?

Maybe because the people playing it are noticing things you aren't? Maybe because, y'know, playing it actually gives you the full picture, as opposed to the things you want to see based on your observations of the class from playing on the receiving end all the time?

DK offense is heavily tied into DoT pressure (which is being nerfed), ult combos (which are expensive), and CC (which is bound to be nerfed eventually, because this is Elder Scrolls Online, and the Elder Scrolls Online community always cries about strong skills).

DK defense/mitigation is heavily tied into block (a dead playstyle, with the myriad of nerfs over the years and abundance of anti-block mechanics such as oblivion damage, heavy DoT application draining stam rapidly, and sets that punish blocking), passives that are lopsided towards spell resists as opposed to phys resists (you legit end up having like 3-4k more spell resists than phys resists on a magDK), and mechanics that were deemed too OP to stay despite being fun and unique (wings in particular).

DK healing, despite appearing to have an abundance of heals, is pretty meh, if we're being honest. Cauterise is fine, but it's on a 5 second timer and doesn't heal for much. Coag is only really good as a heal to get you out of execute range, else you're left just spamming it, throwing resources down the drain. Embers requires a target to both start the heal building up and to get the heal (unless you let it time out naturally), and requires time to build up, and is tied to the damage you deal. Power Lash is fairly short, and is gated behind a CC, and an extra Flame Lash cast to access Power Lash, which makes it very telegraphed. Using Leap to honestly doesn't heal for that much, it seriously feels as if it goes through Battle Spirit.

DK sustain is pretty crap, despite having a passive that restores resources on ult usage, because of a few different reasons. The class crutches pretty heavily on comboing with your ult so you can't build up enough ult to get a huge burst of resources back, there's not much ult gen built in the class to synergise with the sustain-through-ult-usage mechanic, skills are pretty expensive and keep getting more expensive, the other sustain mechanic is tied to pure RNG that the class offers no help with (applying status effects), etc.

Jump on a DK, both mag and stam (stamDK does exist, despite the devs clearly wanting to kill it with Poop Fist), spend some time with it in both CP and non-CP (I've found they perform very differently between the two), and you'll get the full picture.

irstarkey57

Frooke wrote: »

Well, I'm seeing a lot of ppl asking for old wings back, crying about dots, asking for buffs in a strong class, and I have to ask -Are we playing the same game?

Some days ago, I was fighting against a MagDK, testing an Armor Master build, than i got this:



Considering I'm not a vampire and I was with 25k resist and 3.2k crit resist.

That became recurrent.



So I got really upset, and I started to figure out what was going on, so I've found many builds in this patch like this one (with time refference for the Molten Whip part) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--RYtpq4_ec&feature=youtu.be&t=635

Dks got the strongest Dots in game, the best offensive/defensive Ult (Ferocious Leap), the best stun ability (Petrify, considering it got immobilize, and damage too), one of the best spammable abilities, you don't even have to LA between skills, and you can use while blocking too. As if it wasn't enough to put a lot of pressure in fights, they now got an EXECUTE, easy and fast to proc, just put on your dots, or spam some cauterize, Leap and Whip and than BOOM! 20k DAMAGE! But you can block this combo, right? -No! Because you will be fossilized first.

Yeah, but a DK that hits so hard doesn't have a good survivability, right? -Not from what I have experienced, because they got Cauterize, that can be spammable and heal the same as a Templar BoL, they got Dragon Blood, Burning Embers, Protective Scales, and sometimes they run a resto staff too.

So I don't get it, why does ppl keeping ask for buffs in DK? If you play as a MagDK, be honest, are you having any difficult to kill any class in the game, but Magplars?

I don't know what you are doing @Quantum_V , but you should take a look at this and balance it for the next patch, DKs are unkillable and they are hitting harder than a truck

Come across any magplars recently?

FENGRUSH

@Akinos killed me too I agree let's get this nerf in place and destroy his enjoyment.

ZarkingFrued

Frooke wrote: »

Well, I'm seeing a lot of ppl asking for old wings back, crying about dots, asking for buffs in a strong class, and I have to ask -Are we playing the same game?

Some days ago, I was fighting against a MagDK, testing an Armor Master build, than i got this:



Considering I'm not a vampire and I was with 25k resist and 3.2k crit resist.

That became recurrent.



So I got really upset, and I started to figure out what was going on, so I've found many builds in this patch like this one (with time refference for the Molten Whip part) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--RYtpq4_ec&feature=youtu.be&t=635

Dks got the strongest Dots in game, the best offensive/defensive Ult (Ferocious Leap), the best stun ability (Petrify, considering it got immobilize, and damage too), one of the best spammable abilities, you don't even have to LA between skills, and you can use while blocking too. As if it wasn't enough to put a lot of pressure in fights, they now got an EXECUTE, easy and fast to proc, just put on your dots, or spam some cauterize, Leap and Whip and than BOOM! 20k DAMAGE! But you can block this combo, right? -No! Because you will be fossilized first.

Yeah, but a DK that hits so hard doesn't have a good survivability, right? -Not from what I have experienced, because they got Cauterize, that can be spammable and heal the same as a Templar BoL, they got Dragon Blood, Burning Embers, Protective Scales, and sometimes they run a resto staff too.

So I don't get it, why does ppl keeping ask for buffs in DK? If you play as a MagDK, be honest, are you having any difficult to kill any class in the game, but Magplars?

I don't know what you are doing @Quantum_V , but you should take a look at this and balance it for the next patch, DKs are unkillable and they are hitting harder than a

ZarkingFrued

It works in a 1v1 or if you wanna be a support troll in a group. Solo is junk. You dont have time to dot up every enemy with all of your dots to get a kill lol