The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Vamp Drain and power levels
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Guys, do you remember the days when in this game you were able to do different things?Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique7 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There are reasons that essentially every Stamina build on live is constantly pounding away on their Dizzying Swing key, but I only ever see Magicka Necromancers and Magicka Wardens using Vamp Drain.
And the reason are pretty similar. Magcro and Magden use Drain because they lack good alternatives. Stamsorc, stamDk, Warden etc. lack good spam alternatives to dizzy. So what? Give former classes a good stun, give the latter a nice spam and you can shove drain and dizzy where the sun don't shine. But until then, maybe, just maybe, lay a little low.3 -
itscompton✭✭✭✭✭
✭I PvP quite a bit and I can't remember this skill ever showing up on my death recap. Sounds like someone trolled you with it and got you worked up.5 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This has to be the dumbest thread I've read in YEARS. We are really chargingvtowards the cliff if vamp drain is now being declared OP. I'm speechless.7 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »OP left out the fact that using this spell traps the caster into a lengthy channel, during which no other actions can be performed. The caster can block/bash cancel to abort the channel, but then he doesn't receive the full benefit of the heals and damage. If you cancel immediately like I do, all you get is 4K or 5K damage and a tiny little heal.
The fact that anybody is actually using this ridiculously clunky spell just goes to show how severely Magicka classes have been CRIPPLED by nerfs.
That's a nice way to say "please don't fix this broken ability because I want to abuse it as long as possible".
Only, Emma doesn't. 90% of Cyrodiil don't, in fact. But I expected nothing else from you.2 -
mursie✭✭✭✭✭This has to be the dumbest thread I've read in YEARS. We are really chargingvtowards the cliff if vamp drain is now being declared OP. I'm speechless.
have you used it recently? do you realize it was buffed last patch?2 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
None of the People in here defending it have, but what do you except from people who were calling magnecro to be completely overpowered on elsweyr pts2 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »OP left out the fact that using this spell traps the caster into a lengthy channel, during which no other actions can be performed. The caster can block/bash cancel to abort the channel, but then he doesn't receive the full benefit of the heals and damage. If you cancel immediately like I do, all you get is 4K or 5K damage and a tiny little heal.
The fact that anybody is actually using this ridiculously clunky spell just goes to show how severely Magicka classes have been CRIPPLED by nerfs.
Actually lots of people use it. But I suspect that with other DoTs being nerfed people won’t have the desired pressure output to then use this skill. CC break aside it was mostly desirable because people could put up soul trap and entropy and a class DoT or two and then put this on to try and abuse the CC being broken along with quite a lot of damage. It’s very cheesy. But I think with other DoTs being nerfed so are you won’t see this happening.0 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭It is a blockable, undodgeable, 3s channel cc that deals half the damage of a spammable per second, heals for (iirc) 18% missing hp per second (missing hp heals are poor in pvp), and gives a pretty high amount of ultimate.
It's not overpowered. The damage is low, it's a channel, and a cc. The strong point of it is the ult gen.
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DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭It was me. I killed this guy with my drain apparently? Lulz le sigh. Didn’t know it was so OP guys. Meh bad mmmkaay.4 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Dizzying Swing's ultra-widespread use on live isn't just due to a lack of alternatives, and I think it's disingenuous to claim otherwise. Sure, Stam Sorcs might still use the ability even if it was junk, but it is 100% not junk. Refer back to the first paragraph of my previous post for a second - how many Stamina players would be willing to trade away Dizzying Swing, even its current PTS iteration, for a Stamina copy of Vamp Drain...complete with the other benefits and drawbacks of Vampirism? I'd wager not very many.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »There are reasons that essentially every Stamina build on live is constantly pounding away on their Dizzying Swing key, but I only ever see Magicka Necromancers and Magicka Wardens using Vamp Drain.
And the reason are pretty similar. Magcro and Magden use Drain because they lack good alternatives. Stamsorc, stamDk, Warden etc. lack good spam alternatives to dizzy. So what? Give former classes a good stun, give the latter a nice spam and you can shove drain and dizzy where the sun don't shine. But until then, maybe, just maybe, lay a little low.
Uh, no, the tactic isn't to just DOT someone up and Vamp Drain them for the kill. The actual main purposes of Vampire Drain on a Magicka Necromancer are, 1) to have a functional CC, and 2) to help Blastbones have a better shot of actually landing sometimes (especially when combo'd with a Meteor or Colossus...and I generally find the former to be superior).
Actually lots of people use it. But I suspect that with other DoTs being nerfed people won’t have the desired pressure output to then use this skill. CC break aside it was mostly desirable because people could put up soul trap and entropy and a class DoT or two and then put this on to try and abuse the CC being broken along with quite a lot of damage. It’s very cheesy. But I think with other DoTs being nerfed so are you won’t see this happening.Emma_Overload wrote: »OP left out the fact that using this spell traps the caster into a lengthy channel, during which no other actions can be performed. The caster can block/bash cancel to abort the channel, but then he doesn't receive the full benefit of the heals and damage. If you cancel immediately like I do, all you get is 4K or 5K damage and a tiny little heal.
The fact that anybody is actually using this ridiculously clunky spell just goes to show how severely Magicka classes have been CRIPPLED by nerfs.
I certainly wouldn't say that Vampire Drain is a "bad" ability in its current iteration, but it's nowhere near what some people are trying to make it out to be. Especially not when you take the extra fire damage into account. I'd wager that many of the people demanding that Vamp Drain be nerfed have rarely - if ever - gone up against a competent Magicka DK in BGs while on a Magicka Warden or Necromancer at Stage 4 Vampirism.3 -
CambionDaemon✭✭✭I swear that most of the skills in this game are nerfed, leaving the game in the state it is now because of L2P issues and these forums.1
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Calboy✭✭✭✭✭Also, to utilise this skill you need to be a vampire. This means taking extra damage from fire and fighters guild abilities while you stand there in a channel.3 -
Casterial✭✭✭✭✭
✭Over the past year many skills lost their CC because hard hitting skills shouldn't be allowed to have a CC or skills with a CC shouldn't do too many things.
How did Vamp Drain escape this?
The skill is cheap costing a mere 1800mag while offering:
A buggy CC that's hard to break
High damage (15k damage on players)
A strong heal
And more ultimate than anything else in the game.
This skill has to go it's a bane that should have never made it to the point where it is right now
Just add a cast time so you VISUALLY can see the stupid cc happen.
🤷🏻♂️Daggerfall Covenant:Casterial Stamplar || Casterial DK || Availed NB || Castyrial Sorc || Spooky Casterial Necro
Member since: August 2013
Kill Counter Developer
For the Daggerfall Covenant
The Last Chillrend Empress
Animation Cancelling0 -
red_emu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sure. Nerf my only single target stun. I can always just hope the enemy goes AFK to kill them.
Yours faithfully,
MagNecrosPC - EU:
Falathren Noctis - AD MagNecro
Falathren - AD StamSorc
Falathren Eryndaer - AD StamDen
Falathren Irimion - AD MagPlar
Talagan Falathren - AD StamDK
Falathren Infernis - AD MagDK
Your-Ex - AD MagBlade2 -
brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Very nice with Cyrodiil's Light. It's a win-win because if you don't get interrupted during the channel you get a good heal but if you do your next skill is free.
I only really see Wardens and Necros using it and it usually has a high cost powerful ultimate attached it.
It really shouldn't have double the distance of Fear though. I think 7m would be more fair.0 -
Squidgaurd✭✭✭Vamp drain seems pretty trash to use tho im sure most players would preffer a stun like shock clench or javelin or draining shot those skills are mainly used for the stuns btw.1
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Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Over the past year many skills lost their CC because hard hitting skills shouldn't be allowed to have a CC or skills with a CC shouldn't do too many things.
How did Vamp Drain escape this?
The skill is cheap costing a mere 1800mag while offering:
A buggy CC that's hard to break
High damage (15k damage on players)
A strong heal
And more ultimate than anything else in the game.
This skill has to go it's a bane that should have never made it to the point where it is right now
Just add a cast time so you VISUALLY can see the stupid cc happen.
🤷🏻♂️
Wait... you want Drain to have both a cast time AND a channel time? Is there any other spell in the game that works that way?
#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Dizzying Swing's ultra-widespread use on live isn't just due to a lack of alternatives, and I think it's disingenuous to claim otherwise. Sure, Stam Sorcs might still use the ability even if it was junk, but it is 100% not junk. Refer back to the first paragraph of my previous post for a second - how many Stamina players would be willing to trade away Dizzying Swing, even its current PTS iteration, for a Stamina copy of Vamp Drain...complete with the other benefits and drawbacks of Vampirism? I'd wager not very many.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »There are reasons that essentially every Stamina build on live is constantly pounding away on their Dizzying Swing key, but I only ever see Magicka Necromancers and Magicka Wardens using Vamp Drain.
And the reason are pretty similar. Magcro and Magden use Drain because they lack good alternatives. Stamsorc, stamDk, Warden etc. lack good spam alternatives to dizzy. So what? Give former classes a good stun, give the latter a nice spam and you can shove drain and dizzy where the sun don't shine. But until then, maybe, just maybe, lay a little low.
And I didn't say they should trash Drain, did I?
It's dishonest to say DS alternatives weren't nerfed the same patch Dizzy was buffed. Puncture and Low Slash gutted, Hidden Blade turned into an utility skill, Dizzy buffed in dmg with now 0.8s cast time and lower cost. Flurry and Imbue are still clunky. So of course the alternatives were/became poor in U23. Don't act like Dizzy was omnipresent before that.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BlackMadara wrote: »It is a blockable, undodgeable, 3s channel cc that deals half the damage of a spammable per second, heals for (iirc) 18% missing hp per second (missing hp heals are poor in pvp), and gives a pretty high amount of ultimate.
It's not overpowered. The damage is low, it's a channel, and a cc. The strong point of it is the ult gen.
It's about the clunky CC with 0.7s ticks, not the morph with the 1s ticks and the ult gen. If you'd ask me, they simply should invest time in fixing their CCs rather than molding skills around bugs.1 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Over the past year many skills lost their CC because hard hitting skills shouldn't be allowed to have a CC or skills with a CC shouldn't do too many things.
How did Vamp Drain escape this?
The skill is cheap costing a mere 1800mag while offering:
A buggy CC that's hard to break
High damage (15k damage on players)
A strong heal
And more ultimate than anything else in the game.
This skill has to go it's a bane that should have never made it to the point where it is right now
I think the range should be 5m not 12m, then it will be balanced.Because I can!0 -
Alidel✭✭✭✭I'd say leave one morph as it is and buff up other morph, remove cc, and decrease channel time. I just wanna meme it as spam in my pve builds.0 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭
None of the People in here defending it have, but what do you except from people who were calling magnecro to be completely overpowered on elsweyr pts
I have and am using it, yes on my magcro. Magcro is semi-playable with Vamp but with the downside of taking heavy fire damage (not only from mDK, but all who front bar Inferno staff and light weave) AND of course DBoS hurts like mad due to the FG passive.
Magcro at Elsweyr PTS first iteration was very strong, when BB actually worked reliably (not meaning the extra crits) and was smooth to combo with it.. atleast for me it felt really nice, then when it was changed and somehow suddenly many of the Necro skills went buggy, well.. we got the magcro we got now, buggy and have to play with gimmicky self Synergy play with buggy corpse mechanic and Blastbones that is supposed to be our "Shalks" but is not reliable most times to hit anything. General concensus is that magcro is below average what comes to PVP competitive play.
Now, boosted DoT patch happened, suddenly Magcro feels semi-playable, not "OP", not FOTM, far from being one of the top picks to anything except maybe as a support/healer.. yes, i use Vamp drain and Mist Form to have fun while playing on a class that feels like needing them currently. Yes, can replace Mist with RAT (would be nice if had options in the game to sometimes using something else than RAT with many classes) but yeah..
..lets nerfffff all different choices so there are 1 left anymore for everyone, 1 class that everyone plays.. You know it goes to that when people have no more choices to build the class they like to play and there is one to pick over others that really works anymore competitively over others with the class kit it has. FOTM will soon turn into permanent picks where small scale teams are all same class because everything else is dead weight because there are no choices on skills to make them competitive outside class options.
Yeah, you can say "well, destroy all such skills and then ZOS will give all classes good options!". Seriously? Can you honestly see that happening? (You know we will just end up with dead skills no one ever uses)
I`m done with this topic.3 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Moonsorrow wrote: »
None of the People in here defending it have, but what do you except from people who were calling magnecro to be completely overpowered on elsweyr pts
I have and am using it, yes on my magcro. Magcro is semi-playable with Vamp but with the downside of taking heavy fire damage (not only from mDK, but all who front bar Inferno staff and light weave) AND of course DBoS hurts like mad due to the FG passive.
Magcro at Elsweyr PTS first iteration was very strong, when BB actually worked reliably (not meaning the extra crits) and was smooth to combo with it.. atleast for me it felt really nice, then when it was changed and somehow suddenly many of the Necro skills went buggy, well.. we got the magcro we got now, buggy and have to play with gimmicky self Synergy play with buggy corpse mechanic and Blastbones that is supposed to be our "Shalks" but is not reliable most times to hit anything. General concensus is that magcro is below average what comes to PVP competitive play.
Now, boosted DoT patch happened, suddenly Magcro feels semi-playable, not "OP", not FOTM, far from being one of the top picks to anything except maybe as a support/healer.. yes, i use Vamp drain and Mist Form to have fun while playing on a class that feels like needing them currently. Yes, can replace Mist with RAT (would be nice if had options in the game to sometimes using something else than RAT with many classes) but yeah..
..lets nerfffff all different choices so there are 1 left anymore for everyone, 1 class that everyone plays.. You know it goes to that when people have no more choices to build the class they like to play and there is one to pick over others that really works anymore competitively over others with the class kit it has. FOTM will soon turn into permanent picks where small scale teams are all same class because everything else is dead weight because there are no choices on skills to make them competitive outside class options.
Yeah, you can say "well, destroy all such skills and then ZOS will give all classes good options!". Seriously? Can you honestly see that happening? (You know we will just end up with dead skills no one ever uses)
I`m done with this topic.
What a lengthy way of saying i need my training wheels don't take them from me.
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Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Starlight_Knight wrote: »Just keep in mind that this is the LAST SKILL the magden can use to reliably CC on demand. after ZoS has nerfed every other CC possible to us. So now you're asking for them to gut this as well.. cheers bro.
Do what sorcs have been doing for ages: use Flame Reach / Clench. According to 99.9% of dodge spamming stamina builds that's a really great stun and literally completely OP.2 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »It is a blockable, undodgeable, 3s channel cc that deals half the damage of a spammable per second, heals for (iirc) 18% missing hp per second (missing hp heals are poor in pvp), and gives a pretty high amount of ultimate.
It's not overpowered. The damage is low, it's a channel, and a cc. The strong point of it is the ult gen.
It's about the clunky CC with 0.7s ticks, not the morph with the 1s ticks and the ult gen. If you'd ask me, they simply should invest time in fixing their CCs rather than molding skills around bugs.
I haven't had any issues breaking the cc. It is sometimes difficult to see, however. The animation of your character in fear isn't that apparent. I'll have to pay attention to issues cc breaking it. As you said, cc bugs should be fixed, instead of skills nerfed or adjusted to function with the bugs.0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭So many people don't know you can block cancel the channel to get the buggiest CC in the game without the channel. (I think it is the combination of the weird channel that you can block cancel with the fear animation that makes the CC so buggy.)
The main reason a lot of people are using it is not that they can't have another CC. It's cause this one is really buggy and has less counter play.
If ZOS just turned Accelerating Drain into Stunning Drain with no cast time and a normal CC animation (the stuff that makes it buggy IMO)... that'd be the best short term solution. The other solution IMO is only CCing after channel (because the skill seems less buggy when a potato casts it on you without block canceling) which would make the skill unusable in PvP.0 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Moonsorrow wrote: »
None of the People in here defending it have, but what do you except from people who were calling magnecro to be completely overpowered on elsweyr pts
I have and am using it, yes on my magcro. Magcro is semi-playable with Vamp but with the downside of taking heavy fire damage (not only from mDK, but all who front bar Inferno staff and light weave) AND of course DBoS hurts like mad due to the FG passive.
Magcro at Elsweyr PTS first iteration was very strong, when BB actually worked reliably (not meaning the extra crits) and was smooth to combo with it.. atleast for me it felt really nice, then when it was changed and somehow suddenly many of the Necro skills went buggy, well.. we got the magcro we got now, buggy and have to play with gimmicky self Synergy play with buggy corpse mechanic and Blastbones that is supposed to be our "Shalks" but is not reliable most times to hit anything. General concensus is that magcro is below average what comes to PVP competitive play.
Now, boosted DoT patch happened, suddenly Magcro feels semi-playable, not "OP", not FOTM, far from being one of the top picks to anything except maybe as a support/healer.. yes, i use Vamp drain and Mist Form to have fun while playing on a class that feels like needing them currently. Yes, can replace Mist with RAT (would be nice if had options in the game to sometimes using something else than RAT with many classes) but yeah..
..lets nerfffff all different choices so there are 1 left anymore for everyone, 1 class that everyone plays.. You know it goes to that when people have no more choices to build the class they like to play and there is one to pick over others that really works anymore competitively over others with the class kit it has. FOTM will soon turn into permanent picks where small scale teams are all same class because everything else is dead weight because there are no choices on skills to make them competitive outside class options.
Yeah, you can say "well, destroy all such skills and then ZOS will give all classes good options!". Seriously? Can you honestly see that happening? (You know we will just end up with dead skills no one ever uses)
I`m done with this topic.
What a lengthy way of saying i need my training wheels don't take them from me.
Well, could have kept it short and used the famous "L2P" directed to you instead, but.. i like some entertaining writing and i am sure you hear that L2P more than enough as your inner voice whispering it to you at Cyrodiil. Some just follow that advice and get better, some make nerf posts. To each their own.
Have a good day though.
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wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
It would be dishonest to say those other skills weren't nerfed that patch...but I never said that. What I did say, is that it's dishonest to claim that Dizzying Swing is only used due to lack of viable alternatives, which is generally why Vamp Drain gets used.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Dizzying Swing's ultra-widespread use on live isn't just due to a lack of alternatives, and I think it's disingenuous to claim otherwise. Sure, Stam Sorcs might still use the ability even if it was junk, but it is 100% not junk. Refer back to the first paragraph of my previous post for a second - how many Stamina players would be willing to trade away Dizzying Swing, even its current PTS iteration, for a Stamina copy of Vamp Drain...complete with the other benefits and drawbacks of Vampirism? I'd wager not very many.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »There are reasons that essentially every Stamina build on live is constantly pounding away on their Dizzying Swing key, but I only ever see Magicka Necromancers and Magicka Wardens using Vamp Drain.
And the reason are pretty similar. Magcro and Magden use Drain because they lack good alternatives. Stamsorc, stamDk, Warden etc. lack good spam alternatives to dizzy. So what? Give former classes a good stun, give the latter a nice spam and you can shove drain and dizzy where the sun don't shine. But until then, maybe, just maybe, lay a little low.
And I didn't say they should trash Drain, did I?
It's dishonest to say DS alternatives weren't nerfed the same patch Dizzy was buffed. Puncture and Low Slash gutted, Hidden Blade turned into an utility skill, Dizzy buffed in dmg with now 0.8s cast time and lower cost. Flurry and Imbue are still clunky. So of course the alternatives were/became poor in U23. Don't act like Dizzy was omnipresent before that.
You claim that Cliff Racer and Imbue Weapon both stink, but guess what? I've used the magicka morphs of both quite extensively on Magicka Warden, since we have never had the option of Dizzying Swing (especially not the current, live version). Lets be honest here, those abilities - along with basically every other "regular" spammable - do roughly half the damage and don't have a CC attached. It isn't that they're particularly bad; it's that the one standout ability is particularly good.
And while Dizzying Swing wasn't as ubiquitous before its buffs + simultaneous nerfs to other skills, it wasn't really "bad" even then, unless you were typically having to play with high ping. 1h/Shield was quite overpowered, though, so of course it was tough for the pre-buffed version of Dizzying Swing to compete in some cases.
The OP tried comparing Vamp Drain to Dizzying Swing, "asking" why the former hasn't been nerfed. That's a really poor comparison, though, since the abilities aren't even in the same ballpark when it comes to actual effectiveness in PvP. Dizzying Swing is used by essentially every Stamina PvP build on live, because it's astoundingly powerful and combos really well with the overpowered Onslaught ultimate.
Vampire Drain sees use primarily because some Magicka classes have no good alternatives for CC (how many Wardens would use it instead of a copy of the Templar's gap closer, for example). While the damage buff last patch certainly helped, the ability is still a CC first and foremost; if that wasn't the case, we wouldn't see it getting self-interrupted nearly so often.
Flame Clench's knockback causes problems for Magicka Wardens and Necromancers, which as I stated before, are the classes with the worst CC options. Even with the old version that had a shorter knockback distance, it wasn't all that rare to push people out of the line of fire of your Shalks, thus counter-playing your own burst attempt. Not to mention the fact that Shalks and Blastbones - which are "required" class skills if you ever want to kill anything - both benefit more from Lightning Staff passives.Starlight_Knight wrote: »Just keep in mind that this is the LAST SKILL the magden can use to reliably CC on demand. after ZoS has nerfed every other CC possible to us. So now you're asking for them to gut this as well.. cheers bro.
Do what sorcs have been doing for ages: use Flame Reach / Clench. According to 99.9% of dodge spamming stamina builds that's a really great stun and literally completely OP.1