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DEVELOPER DEEP DIVE – LET’S TALK ABOUT CLASS IDENTITY - feedback from a StamDK

  • Rahar
    Rahar
    ✭✭✭✭
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Controversial opinion warning.

    The fact that they've even updated stone fist to be a lava ball is a pretty big indicator that yeah, they're listening. If you've played a decent amount of time into any MMO you should know that developers changing the way that skills look for the community's sake is a big deal. As a developer myself, and knowing how much that skill set can make hourly, it's a bit of an investment to do something like that purely for the sake of looks and theme. And they've promised more.

    So I'd say they're listening and we can count on further bits and pieces here and there; think of it as little baby steps that will eventually work into the bigger picture, the "flame and fury". They've only just announced that they want to pay more attention to themes, so it might be a bit of time before we see anything really substantial.

    Where this unfortunately breaks down is when players don't have the patience to wait for things to change or are too entitled to accept changes in general. I saw a lot of this when the stone fist update came out, e.g., "I don't like the fireball because it's not perfect/it's not exactly what I wanted". You asked for change and you got it; that should be a sign to you. Keep pushing.

    So, yes. I think the article was less damage control than you think it is.

    That is a load of crap.

    Stonefist as a spammable has one goal to achieve;

    Its to provide stamDK a tool to be relevant in trial groups. Done. Players will slot it not because they have been dying to weave some stonefist, but because they have no other option now.

    As for this whole we being impatient thing.. Lets make one thing very, very clear. I've asked for this yes, I've asked for a class alternative of heroic slash(when it was near suprise attack in tooltip), I always strongly disagreed with stonefist spammable , and went way out of my way to point out that I do not like the idea, nor anybody will. Do you know how long it has been since I've asked for a spammable though? Almost 3 years. So am I really impatient? 3 years is enough to make an entire game from nothing. I'm not impatient, not at all.

    We asked for stamina whip, emphasis on more poison/dragon themed abilities.

    And we got a rock + promise of more focus on earth theme.

    I don't think you're any good at paying attention to detail.

    It's kind of ironic that you accuse me of paying no attention to detail when, in the same post, you've paid no attention to what I'm arguing for. The point I put forward is that the developers changed the look of stonefist according to a sizable DK outcry. This has nothing to do with how the ability works (i.e., it is now a spammable), which is what for some strange reason you've decided to argue for when I've said nothing to the contrary.

    Regardless, I'll go up to bat for a point I didn't even put forward for your sake.

    DKs have, for a while, asked for a spammable. It doesn't matter that it's not your ideal of what a spammable should be on the class, or that it's not a stamina whip. The point I'd like to make abundantly clear to you is that, despite this, they've now changed it according to what the community has asked for. This is a world of difference from the team's response before the article was released, which was to do nothing for the most part -- So no, I'm sorry, you haven't been waiting for this change for three years because there was no statement put forward or even an effort to change it in the first place. You've just been asking for three years, and now they're changing things according to what you're asking for. How is this a step in the wrong direction? How is this proof that what they wrote in the article is not what they're just now focusing on? Instead, you've decided to chastise this new leadership based on what the old combat team did or did not do and reject any changes that the new team puts forward, even if it is better than you had. It makes no sense. It's borderline insanity, and petulant to boot.

    It might not be what you want now, but I think I'm relatively safe in thinking that we can see more changes later. That's the point I've been trying to get across.

    First off, Dks asked in a spammable in an era where weapon spammables outside of heroic slash was pure garbage. That was already a non-issue when this spammable we asked YEARS AGO, got added. The real reason this was added was, as I said to provide stamDk a guaranteed spot in trials without making it top DPS.

    As for the whole ''they changed the animation because they care and listen'' thing, They used the default stonefist animation for money saving purposes or laziness, and only after the outrage they panicked and added some flame effect to it.

    They did it because quite literally EVERYONE was meme'ing about it, stonefist even got its own emote on twitch and discord. What was supposed to bring the community and developers closer, ended up splitting them apart. Literally everyone hates stonefist, and Its only you and a few others(including developers unfortunately) that can't see why.

    (a little hint though; the color of the rock has not much to do with it)

    It also adds salt to the wound that the step in the ''right'' direction came with massive dot cost nerfs, nerfing and standartizing of corrosive armor(previously unique stamDk ability,now available to everyone in a cheaper, stronger form, onslaught.) and nerfing the cost of fossilize making it unsustainable for stamDk.

    The class flavor is absolutely ruined and you're telling me I'm insane for not being head over heels about it.

    Its not just about one ability though, I wouldn't mind stonefist all that much if there were other, meaningful changes. They could have done a lot of things to make it look like they truly cared and tried. They could have reduces the cost of molten armaments, or done something about the micro-shield of fragmented shield, or add weapon crit to cauterize, g ive igneous weapons a secondary effect of sorts...

    Look at all the things they could have done without changing any animations.

    If you're still too dense in the skull to understand my point, I'll put it on bold text one last time just for you.

    Stonefist is a spammable that exists to give stamDk a guaranteed spot in trial groups and finally be able to proc its own passives in PvE. The stun is slapped in there as a last second solution to the question of ''But what about PvP players?'' You're lying to yourself and calling me insane for pointing you at the truth, they do NOT care.

    I can't have a reasonable discussion with you when you refuse to read what I've stated and just keep repeating the same point I've already made an attempt to break down. I understand why you and others don't like the new stonefist, and I feel like I made that pretty clear in my last post. I'm not saying you have to be head over heels, gung-***, or whatever other positive turn of phrase when regarding the developers and the development direction. What I am saying is that something is better than nothing, and many DK players are either saying they prefer having nothing, or saying that the article is the wrong outlook to take, which is simply not true where the interests of class identity are concerned. Any point to the contrary you've made based on the quantifiable parts of a skill (e.g., how much damage it does, what it costs, what numerical effects it entails) is not even remotely on topic both in the context of this thread and in the article the OP mentions. That's a completely different kind of effort on ZOS's end, and one I am sure we can agree is not going as well as it could.

    The bottom line is getting upset this early in the game is a knee-jerk reaction, especially when the article was just released a month or so ago at the time of this post. This is a step in the right direction. It doesn't mean ZOS is out of the woods; it means we can finally count on change because they've stuck their necks out.
    NeRf MaGsOrC
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Controversial opinion warning.

    The fact that they've even updated stone fist to be a lava ball is a pretty big indicator that yeah, they're listening. If you've played a decent amount of time into any MMO you should know that developers changing the way that skills look for the community's sake is a big deal. As a developer myself, and knowing how much that skill set can make hourly, it's a bit of an investment to do something like that purely for the sake of looks and theme. And they've promised more.

    So I'd say they're listening and we can count on further bits and pieces here and there; think of it as little baby steps that will eventually work into the bigger picture, the "flame and fury". They've only just announced that they want to pay more attention to themes, so it might be a bit of time before we see anything really substantial.

    Where this unfortunately breaks down is when players don't have the patience to wait for things to change or are too entitled to accept changes in general. I saw a lot of this when the stone fist update came out, e.g., "I don't like the fireball because it's not perfect/it's not exactly what I wanted". You asked for change and you got it; that should be a sign to you. Keep pushing.

    So, yes. I think the article was less damage control than you think it is.

    That is a load of crap.

    Stonefist as a spammable has one goal to achieve;

    Its to provide stamDK a tool to be relevant in trial groups. Done. Players will slot it not because they have been dying to weave some stonefist, but because they have no other option now.

    As for this whole we being impatient thing.. Lets make one thing very, very clear. I've asked for this yes, I've asked for a class alternative of heroic slash(when it was near suprise attack in tooltip), I always strongly disagreed with stonefist spammable , and went way out of my way to point out that I do not like the idea, nor anybody will. Do you know how long it has been since I've asked for a spammable though? Almost 3 years. So am I really impatient? 3 years is enough to make an entire game from nothing. I'm not impatient, not at all.

    We asked for stamina whip, emphasis on more poison/dragon themed abilities.

    And we got a rock + promise of more focus on earth theme.

    I don't think you're any good at paying attention to detail.

    It's kind of ironic that you accuse me of paying no attention to detail when, in the same post, you've paid no attention to what I'm arguing for. The point I put forward is that the developers changed the look of stonefist according to a sizable DK outcry. This has nothing to do with how the ability works (i.e., it is now a spammable), which is what for some strange reason you've decided to argue for when I've said nothing to the contrary.

    Regardless, I'll go up to bat for a point I didn't even put forward for your sake.

    DKs have, for a while, asked for a spammable. It doesn't matter that it's not your ideal of what a spammable should be on the class, or that it's not a stamina whip. The point I'd like to make abundantly clear to you is that, despite this, they've now changed it according to what the community has asked for. This is a world of difference from the team's response before the article was released, which was to do nothing for the most part -- So no, I'm sorry, you haven't been waiting for this change for three years because there was no statement put forward or even an effort to change it in the first place. You've just been asking for three years, and now they're changing things according to what you're asking for. How is this a step in the wrong direction? How is this proof that what they wrote in the article is not what they're just now focusing on? Instead, you've decided to chastise this new leadership based on what the old combat team did or did not do and reject any changes that the new team puts forward, even if it is better than you had. It makes no sense. It's borderline insanity, and petulant to boot.

    It might not be what you want now, but I think I'm relatively safe in thinking that we can see more changes later. That's the point I've been trying to get across.

    First off, Dks asked in a spammable in an era where weapon spammables outside of heroic slash was pure garbage. That was already a non-issue when this spammable we asked YEARS AGO, got added. The real reason this was added was, as I said to provide stamDk a guaranteed spot in trials without making it top DPS.

    As for the whole ''they changed the animation because they care and listen'' thing, They used the default stonefist animation for money saving purposes or laziness, and only after the outrage they panicked and added some flame effect to it.

    They did it because quite literally EVERYONE was meme'ing about it, stonefist even got its own emote on twitch and discord. What was supposed to bring the community and developers closer, ended up splitting them apart. Literally everyone hates stonefist, and Its only you and a few others(including developers unfortunately) that can't see why.

    (a little hint though; the color of the rock has not much to do with it)

    It also adds salt to the wound that the step in the ''right'' direction came with massive dot cost nerfs, nerfing and standartizing of corrosive armor(previously unique stamDk ability,now available to everyone in a cheaper, stronger form, onslaught.) and nerfing the cost of fossilize making it unsustainable for stamDk.

    The class flavor is absolutely ruined and you're telling me I'm insane for not being head over heels about it.

    Its not just about one ability though, I wouldn't mind stonefist all that much if there were other, meaningful changes. They could have done a lot of things to make it look like they truly cared and tried. They could have reduces the cost of molten armaments, or done something about the micro-shield of fragmented shield, or add weapon crit to cauterize, g ive igneous weapons a secondary effect of sorts...

    Look at all the things they could have done without changing any animations.

    If you're still too dense in the skull to understand my point, I'll put it on bold text one last time just for you.

    Stonefist is a spammable that exists to give stamDk a guaranteed spot in trial groups and finally be able to proc its own passives in PvE. The stun is slapped in there as a last second solution to the question of ''But what about PvP players?'' You're lying to yourself and calling me insane for pointing you at the truth, they do NOT care.

    I can't have a reasonable discussion with you when you refuse to read what I've stated and just keep repeating the same point I've already made an attempt to break down. I understand why you and others don't like the new stonefist, and I feel like I made that pretty clear in my last post. I'm not saying you have to be head over heels, gung-***, or whatever other positive turn of phrase when regarding the developers and the development direction. What I am saying is that something is better than nothing, and many DK players are either saying they prefer having nothing, or saying that the article is the wrong outlook to take, which is simply not true where the interests of class identity are concerned. Any point to the contrary you've made based on the quantifiable parts of a skill (e.g., how much damage it does, what it costs, what numerical effects it entails) is not even remotely on topic both in the context of this thread and in the article the OP mentions. That's a completely different kind of effort on ZOS's end, and one I am sure we can agree is not going as well as it could.

    The bottom line is getting upset this early in the game is a knee-jerk reaction, especially when the article was just released a month or so ago at the time of this post. This is a step in the right direction. It doesn't mean ZOS is out of the woods; it means we can finally count on change because they've stuck their necks out.

    A lot of the things you said are out of logic here. Doing something in a bad way is worse than not doing anything at all, Its especially worse after waiting for so long as it will upset the community, case in point, moving on.

    And functionality of an ability is half of its identity, so it DOES matter. What made wing so epic? The reflect and animation, how they complimented each other. Reflect is gone and now wings is the most boring ability ever in the game. Another example is dizzying swing, knock-up is gone and the ability completely lost its identity, regardless of its viability that is the case.

    So functionality of your abilities DOES contribute to class identity. When my ''class spammable'' looks bad, and also functions bad, then that means its an absolute failure. This is NOT a step in the right direction, your entire argument is based on the idea that It will get better in future, while up untill this point, things have been getting consistently worse for the class. It lost identity, not gained it. I gave you tons of examples which you COMPLETELY ignored because I guess its an hard to swallow pill?

    You can put your head in sand and pretend its not happening though. The class identity dev post wouldn't even happen if it was not for the Dk outcry. You should be thankful to the people who complained enough to make it happen, not bash and insult them.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on November 5, 2019 8:11PM
  • Rahar
    Rahar
    ✭✭✭✭
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Controversial opinion warning.

    The fact that they've even updated stone fist to be a lava ball is a pretty big indicator that yeah, they're listening. If you've played a decent amount of time into any MMO you should know that developers changing the way that skills look for the community's sake is a big deal. As a developer myself, and knowing how much that skill set can make hourly, it's a bit of an investment to do something like that purely for the sake of looks and theme. And they've promised more.

    So I'd say they're listening and we can count on further bits and pieces here and there; think of it as little baby steps that will eventually work into the bigger picture, the "flame and fury". They've only just announced that they want to pay more attention to themes, so it might be a bit of time before we see anything really substantial.

    Where this unfortunately breaks down is when players don't have the patience to wait for things to change or are too entitled to accept changes in general. I saw a lot of this when the stone fist update came out, e.g., "I don't like the fireball because it's not perfect/it's not exactly what I wanted". You asked for change and you got it; that should be a sign to you. Keep pushing.

    So, yes. I think the article was less damage control than you think it is.

    That is a load of crap.

    Stonefist as a spammable has one goal to achieve;

    Its to provide stamDK a tool to be relevant in trial groups. Done. Players will slot it not because they have been dying to weave some stonefist, but because they have no other option now.

    As for this whole we being impatient thing.. Lets make one thing very, very clear. I've asked for this yes, I've asked for a class alternative of heroic slash(when it was near suprise attack in tooltip), I always strongly disagreed with stonefist spammable , and went way out of my way to point out that I do not like the idea, nor anybody will. Do you know how long it has been since I've asked for a spammable though? Almost 3 years. So am I really impatient? 3 years is enough to make an entire game from nothing. I'm not impatient, not at all.

    We asked for stamina whip, emphasis on more poison/dragon themed abilities.

    And we got a rock + promise of more focus on earth theme.

    I don't think you're any good at paying attention to detail.

    It's kind of ironic that you accuse me of paying no attention to detail when, in the same post, you've paid no attention to what I'm arguing for. The point I put forward is that the developers changed the look of stonefist according to a sizable DK outcry. This has nothing to do with how the ability works (i.e., it is now a spammable), which is what for some strange reason you've decided to argue for when I've said nothing to the contrary.

    Regardless, I'll go up to bat for a point I didn't even put forward for your sake.

    DKs have, for a while, asked for a spammable. It doesn't matter that it's not your ideal of what a spammable should be on the class, or that it's not a stamina whip. The point I'd like to make abundantly clear to you is that, despite this, they've now changed it according to what the community has asked for. This is a world of difference from the team's response before the article was released, which was to do nothing for the most part -- So no, I'm sorry, you haven't been waiting for this change for three years because there was no statement put forward or even an effort to change it in the first place. You've just been asking for three years, and now they're changing things according to what you're asking for. How is this a step in the wrong direction? How is this proof that what they wrote in the article is not what they're just now focusing on? Instead, you've decided to chastise this new leadership based on what the old combat team did or did not do and reject any changes that the new team puts forward, even if it is better than you had. It makes no sense. It's borderline insanity, and petulant to boot.

    It might not be what you want now, but I think I'm relatively safe in thinking that we can see more changes later. That's the point I've been trying to get across.

    First off, Dks asked in a spammable in an era where weapon spammables outside of heroic slash was pure garbage. That was already a non-issue when this spammable we asked YEARS AGO, got added. The real reason this was added was, as I said to provide stamDk a guaranteed spot in trials without making it top DPS.

    As for the whole ''they changed the animation because they care and listen'' thing, They used the default stonefist animation for money saving purposes or laziness, and only after the outrage they panicked and added some flame effect to it.

    They did it because quite literally EVERYONE was meme'ing about it, stonefist even got its own emote on twitch and discord. What was supposed to bring the community and developers closer, ended up splitting them apart. Literally everyone hates stonefist, and Its only you and a few others(including developers unfortunately) that can't see why.

    (a little hint though; the color of the rock has not much to do with it)

    It also adds salt to the wound that the step in the ''right'' direction came with massive dot cost nerfs, nerfing and standartizing of corrosive armor(previously unique stamDk ability,now available to everyone in a cheaper, stronger form, onslaught.) and nerfing the cost of fossilize making it unsustainable for stamDk.

    The class flavor is absolutely ruined and you're telling me I'm insane for not being head over heels about it.

    Its not just about one ability though, I wouldn't mind stonefist all that much if there were other, meaningful changes. They could have done a lot of things to make it look like they truly cared and tried. They could have reduces the cost of molten armaments, or done something about the micro-shield of fragmented shield, or add weapon crit to cauterize, g ive igneous weapons a secondary effect of sorts...

    Look at all the things they could have done without changing any animations.

    If you're still too dense in the skull to understand my point, I'll put it on bold text one last time just for you.

    Stonefist is a spammable that exists to give stamDk a guaranteed spot in trial groups and finally be able to proc its own passives in PvE. The stun is slapped in there as a last second solution to the question of ''But what about PvP players?'' You're lying to yourself and calling me insane for pointing you at the truth, they do NOT care.

    I can't have a reasonable discussion with you when you refuse to read what I've stated and just keep repeating the same point I've already made an attempt to break down. I understand why you and others don't like the new stonefist, and I feel like I made that pretty clear in my last post. I'm not saying you have to be head over heels, gung-***, or whatever other positive turn of phrase when regarding the developers and the development direction. What I am saying is that something is better than nothing, and many DK players are either saying they prefer having nothing, or saying that the article is the wrong outlook to take, which is simply not true where the interests of class identity are concerned. Any point to the contrary you've made based on the quantifiable parts of a skill (e.g., how much damage it does, what it costs, what numerical effects it entails) is not even remotely on topic both in the context of this thread and in the article the OP mentions. That's a completely different kind of effort on ZOS's end, and one I am sure we can agree is not going as well as it could.

    The bottom line is getting upset this early in the game is a knee-jerk reaction, especially when the article was just released a month or so ago at the time of this post. This is a step in the right direction. It doesn't mean ZOS is out of the woods; it means we can finally count on change because they've stuck their necks out.

    A lot of the things you said are out of logic here. Doing something in a bad way is worse than not doing anything at all, Its especially worse after waiting for so long as it will upset the community, case in point, moving on.

    And functionality of an ability is half of its identity, so it DOES matter. What made wing so epic? The reflect and animation, how they complimented each other. Reflect is gone and now wings is the most boring ability ever in the game. Another example is dizzying swing, knock-up is gone and the ability completely lost its identity, regardless of its viability that is the case.

    So functionality of your abilities DOES contribute to class identity. When my ''class spammable'' looks bad, and also functions bad, then that means its an absolute failure. This is NOT a step in the right direction, your entire argument is based on the idea that It will get better in future, while up untill this point, things have been getting consistently worse for the class. It lost identity, not gained it. I gave you tons of examples which you COMPLETELY ignored because I guess its an hard to swallow pill?

    You can put your head in sand and pretend its not happening though. The class identity dev post wouldn't even happen if it was not for the Dk outcry. You should be thankful to the people who complained enough to make it happen, not bash and insult them.

    I think we fundamentally disagree. Not only have I made an effort to not insult anyone (which has not been reciprocated, thanks for talking to me like a child), the absolute unwillingness to dissect and analyze skills by the basis of the OPs topic (the article by ZOS) means that we can't discuss class identity in a topic-relevant way.

    I'll take a step back. In the context of sheer effectiveness (which is OFF-topic, if we go by the metrics the article details, which is in short the look and feel), I would concede that you have a point with wings and fossilize, but I would argue that their adjustments were made because of their effectiveness, and it has nothing to do with the line of discussion I'm attempting to go down. For example, fossilize has the exact look and feel it had before, because the cost was the only thing that changed. You can still use it on a stamdk; it's still there, and many do. It still looks the same and is exactly as satisfying as it was before. Now you just have to choose between using it and using wings instead of getting both. This isn't a consequence of stamdk losing identity, because in the end, the identity of the skill was never touched. Wings is a slightly different case and didn't get so lucky because its identity was so heavily tied to oppressing all semblance of other classes' identities (magblade, anyone?). Class identities don't work in a vacuum.

    We have to treat balance and identity separately because balance doesn't always imply that gameplay is going to be fun, as you've so aptly stated. The way you want to approach identity means that we'll end up with more skills like wings, where balance overrides identity... or worse, a rock-paper-scissors kind of balance we haven't seen since the likes of 2005-era MMOs, where identity overrides balance and mages beat warriors. I believe that there is a sweet spot we can reach where one isn't sacrificed at the expense of the other, but first we need to consider the problem in halves.

    I'll summarize, then I'm walking away: It's good that ZOS is finally on this page. At the very least, they've given us some ground and a PR statement we can hold them to later.

    Relevant parts of the article backing me up:
    ZOS wrote:
    Power fantasy refers to the fictional justification of your character's power and how it’s expressed through the look and feel of abilities.
    [...]
    This power fantasy, however, should not dictate or constrain your character's role in battle. One of our mantras for ESO is "play the way you want," and in this case, it means any class can fulfill any role (tank, dps, support/healer). To better achieve this ideal while also maintaining the unique fantasy flavor of each class, all class kits need to include the basic tools required to fulfill each role. To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines.
    [...]
    The second component of class identity focuses on play patterns, which are the specific mechanics and behaviors you have to learn, engage with, and master to achieve objectives in battle. While all healers might have an objective of "prevent ally health from reaching zero," you can achieve this through several effect behaviors: direct heals, heal over time, damage shields, and damage reduction, to name a few. Each of these effect behaviors exhibit benefits and limitations that, when combined with a triggering method, make them more or less effective in various contexts.
    [...]
    The triggering method itself is the other major factor of play patterns since it defines the inputs and conditions you must satisfy to trigger the effect behavior. Most abilities include conditions related to range, targeting, resource type, and resource cost.
    [...]
    That combination of triggering method and effect behavior establishes the mechanical feel of an ability, and when you string together several abilities in conjunction with core mechanics (movement, attack, block, etc.), a play pattern emerges. These play patterns are critical to reinforcing class identity by differentiating the experience along three axis: playing the same role with different classes, playing different roles with the same class, and engaging in PvE vs. PvP activities.
    [...]
    Hopefully we’ve shed light on how we use the term “class identity” internally. In summary, we define success as delivering class kits that combine cohesive, satisfying power fantasies with unique and effective play patterns. The end result should be the ability to fill any role with any class while retaining the look and feel of that class. You can expect future updates to include changes with this goal in mind.
    NeRf MaGsOrC
  • OrderoftheDarkness
    OrderoftheDarkness
    ✭✭✭
    [
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Controversial opinion warning.

    The fact that they've even updated stone fist to be a lava ball is a pretty big indicator that yeah, they're listening. If you've played a decent amount of time into any MMO you should know that developers changing the way that skills look for the community's sake is a big deal. As a developer myself, and knowing how much that skill set can make hourly, it's a bit of an investment to do something like that purely for the sake of looks and theme. And they've promised more.

    So I'd say they're listening and we can count on further bits and pieces here and there; think of it as little baby steps that will eventually work into the bigger picture, the "flame and fury". They've only just announced that they want to pay more attention to themes, so it might be a bit of time before we see anything really substantial.

    Where this unfortunately breaks down is when players don't have the patience to wait for things to change or are too entitled to accept changes in general. I saw a lot of this when the stone fist update came out, e.g., "I don't like the fireball because it's not perfect/it's not exactly what I wanted". You asked for change and you got it; that should be a sign to you. Keep pushing.

    So, yes. I think the article was less damage control than you think it is.

    That is a load of crap.

    Stonefist as a spammable has one goal to achieve;

    Its to provide stamDK a tool to be relevant in trial groups. Done. Players will slot it not because they have been dying to weave some stonefist, but because they have no other option now.

    As for this whole we being impatient thing.. Lets make one thing very, very clear. I've asked for this yes, I've asked for a class alternative of heroic slash(when it was near suprise attack in tooltip), I always strongly disagreed with stonefist spammable , and went way out of my way to point out that I do not like the idea, nor anybody will. Do you know how long it has been since I've asked for a spammable though? Almost 3 years. So am I really impatient? 3 years is enough to make an entire game from nothing. I'm not impatient, not at all.

    We asked for stamina whip, emphasis on more poison/dragon themed abilities.

    And we got a rock + promise of more focus on earth theme.

    I don't think you're any good at paying attention to detail.

    It's kind of ironic that you accuse me of paying no attention to detail when, in the same post, you've paid no attention to what I'm arguing for. The point I put forward is that the developers changed the look of stonefist according to a sizable DK outcry. This has nothing to do with how the ability works (i.e., it is now a spammable), which is what for some strange reason you've decided to argue for when I've said nothing to the contrary.

    Regardless, I'll go up to bat for a point I didn't even put forward for your sake.

    DKs have, for a while, asked for a spammable. It doesn't matter that it's not your ideal of what a spammable should be on the class, or that it's not a stamina whip. The point I'd like to make abundantly clear to you is that, despite this, they've now changed it according to what the community has asked for. This is a world of difference from the team's response before the article was released, which was to do nothing for the most part -- So no, I'm sorry, you haven't been waiting for this change for three years because there was no statement put forward or even an effort to change it in the first place. You've just been asking for three years, and now they're changing things according to what you're asking for. How is this a step in the wrong direction? How is this proof that what they wrote in the article is not what they're just now focusing on? Instead, you've decided to chastise this new leadership based on what the old combat team did or did not do and reject any changes that the new team puts forward, even if it is better than you had. It makes no sense. It's borderline insanity, and petulant to boot.

    It might not be what you want now, but I think I'm relatively safe in thinking that we can see more changes later. That's the point I've been trying to get across.

    First off, Dks asked in a spammable in an era where weapon spammables outside of heroic slash was pure garbage. That was already a non-issue when this spammable we asked YEARS AGO, got added. The real reason this was added was, as I said to provide stamDk a guaranteed spot in trials without making it top DPS.

    As for the whole ''they changed the animation because they care and listen'' thing, They used the default stonefist animation for money saving purposes or laziness, and only after the outrage they panicked and added some flame effect to it.

    They did it because quite literally EVERYONE was meme'ing about it, stonefist even got its own emote on twitch and discord. What was supposed to bring the community and developers closer, ended up splitting them apart. Literally everyone hates stonefist, and Its only you and a few others(including developers unfortunately) that can't see why.

    (a little hint though; the color of the rock has not much to do with it)

    It also adds salt to the wound that the step in the ''right'' direction came with massive dot cost nerfs, nerfing and standartizing of corrosive armor(previously unique stamDk ability,now available to everyone in a cheaper, stronger form, onslaught.) and nerfing the cost of fossilize making it unsustainable for stamDk.

    The class flavor is absolutely ruined and you're telling me I'm insane for not being head over heels about it.

    Its not just about one ability though, I wouldn't mind stonefist all that much if there were other, meaningful changes. They could have done a lot of things to make it look like they truly cared and tried. They could have reduces the cost of molten armaments, or done something about the micro-shield of fragmented shield, or add weapon crit to cauterize, g ive igneous weapons a secondary effect of sorts...

    Look at all the things they could have done without changing any animations.

    If you're still too dense in the skull to understand my point, I'll put it on bold text one last time just for you.

    Stonefist is a spammable that exists to give stamDk a guaranteed spot in trial groups and finally be able to proc its own passives in PvE. The stun is slapped in there as a last second solution to the question of ''But what about PvP players?'' You're lying to yourself and calling me insane for pointing you at the truth, they do NOT care.

    I can't have a reasonable discussion with you when you refuse to read what I've stated and just keep repeating the same point I've already made an attempt to break down. I understand why you and others don't like the new stonefist, and I feel like I made that pretty clear in my last post. I'm not saying you have to be head over heels, gung-***, or whatever other positive turn of phrase when regarding the developers and the development direction. What I am saying is that something is better than nothing, and many DK players are either saying they prefer having nothing, or saying that the article is the wrong outlook to take, which is simply not true where the interests of class identity are concerned. Any point to the contrary you've made based on the quantifiable parts of a skill (e.g., how much damage it does, what it costs, what numerical effects it entails) is not even remotely on topic both in the context of this thread and in the article the OP mentions. That's a completely different kind of effort on ZOS's end, and one I am sure we can agree is not going as well as it could.

    The bottom line is getting upset this early in the game is a knee-jerk reaction, especially when the article was just released a month or so ago at the time of this post. This is a step in the right direction. It doesn't mean ZOS is out of the woods; it means we can finally count on change because they've stuck their necks out.

    A lot of the things you said are out of logic here. Doing something in a bad way is worse than not doing anything at all, Its especially worse after waiting for so long as it will upset the community, case in point, moving on.

    And functionality of an ability is half of its identity, so it DOES matter. What made wing so epic? The reflect and animation, how they complimented each other. Reflect is gone and now wings is the most boring ability ever in the game. Another example is dizzying swing, knock-up is gone and the ability completely lost its identity, regardless of its viability that is the case.

    So functionality of your abilities DOES contribute to class identity. When my ''class spammable'' looks bad, and also functions bad, then that means its an absolute failure. This is NOT a step in the right direction, your entire argument is based on the idea that It will get better in future, while up untill this point, things have been getting consistently worse for the class. It lost identity, not gained it. I gave you tons of examples which you COMPLETELY ignored because I guess its an hard to swallow pill?

    You can put your head in sand and pretend its not happening though. The class identity dev post wouldn't even happen if it was not for the Dk outcry. You should be thankful to the people who complained enough to make it happen, not bash and insult them.

    I think we fundamentally disagree. Not only have I made an effort to not insult anyone (which has not been reciprocated, thanks for talking to me like a child), the absolute unwillingness to dissect and analyze skills by the basis of the OPs topic (the article by ZOS) means that we can't discuss class identity in a topic-relevant way.

    I'll take a step back. In the context of sheer effectiveness (which is OFF-topic, if we go by the metrics the article details, which is in short the look and feel), I would concede that you have a point with wings and fossilize, but I would argue that their adjustments were made because of their effectiveness, and it has nothing to do with the line of discussion I'm attempting to go down. For example, fossilize has the exact look and feel it had before, because the cost was the only thing that changed. You can still use it on a stamdk; it's still there, and many do. It still looks the same and is exactly as satisfying as it was before. Now you just have to choose between using it and using wings instead of getting both. This isn't a consequence of stamdk losing identity, because in the end, the identity of the skill was never touched. Wings is a slightly different case and didn't get so lucky because its identity was so heavily tied to oppressing all semblance of other classes' identities (magblade, anyone?). Class identities don't work in a vacuum.

    We have to treat balance and identity separately because balance doesn't always imply that gameplay is going to be fun, as you've so aptly stated. The way you want to approach identity means that we'll end up with more skills like wings, where balance overrides identity... or worse, a rock-paper-scissors kind of balance we haven't seen since the likes of 2005-era MMOs, where identity overrides balance and mages beat warriors. I believe that there is a sweet spot we can reach where one isn't sacrificed at the expense of the other, but first we need to consider the problem in halves.

    I'll summarize, then I'm walking away: It's good that ZOS is finally on this page. At the very least, they've given us some ground and a PR statement we can hold them to later.

    Relevant parts of the article backing me up:
    ZOS wrote:
    Power fantasy refers to the fictional justification of your character's power and how it’s expressed through the look and feel of abilities.
    [...]
    This power fantasy, however, should not dictate or constrain your character's role in battle. One of our mantras for ESO is "play the way you want," and in this case, it means any class can fulfill any role (tank, dps, support/healer). To better achieve this ideal while also maintaining the unique fantasy flavor of each class, all class kits need to include the basic tools required to fulfill each role. To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines.
    [...]
    The second component of class identity focuses on play patterns, which are the specific mechanics and behaviors you have to learn, engage with, and master to achieve objectives in battle. While all healers might have an objective of "prevent ally health from reaching zero," you can achieve this through several effect behaviors: direct heals, heal over time, damage shields, and damage reduction, to name a few. Each of these effect behaviors exhibit benefits and limitations that, when combined with a triggering method, make them more or less effective in various contexts.
    [...]
    The triggering method itself is the other major factor of play patterns since it defines the inputs and conditions you must satisfy to trigger the effect behavior. Most abilities include conditions related to range, targeting, resource type, and resource cost.
    [...]
    That combination of triggering method and effect behavior establishes the mechanical feel of an ability, and when you string together several abilities in conjunction with core mechanics (movement, attack, block, etc.), a play pattern emerges. These play patterns are critical to reinforcing class identity by differentiating the experience along three axis: playing the same role with different classes, playing different roles with the same class, and engaging in PvE vs. PvP activities.
    [...]
    Hopefully we’ve shed light on how we use the term “class identity” internally. In summary, we define success as delivering class kits that combine cohesive, satisfying power fantasies with unique and effective play patterns. The end result should be the ability to fill any role with any class while retaining the look and feel of that class. You can expect future updates to include changes with this goal in mind.

    Good post. For some, going beyond is an opportunity, but for some it’s crazy. I am glad that here I am not forced to follow the interests of one group.
    Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on November 6, 2019 4:33PM
  • Davadin
    Davadin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Controversial opinion warning.

    The fact that they've even updated stone fist to be a lava ball is a pretty big indicator that yeah, they're listening. If you've played a decent amount of time into any MMO you should know that developers changing the way that skills look for the community's sake is a big deal. As a developer myself, and knowing how much that skill set can make hourly, it's a bit of an investment to do something like that purely for the sake of looks and theme. And they've promised more.

    So I'd say they're listening and we can count on further bits and pieces here and there; think of it as little baby steps that will eventually work into the bigger picture, the "flame and fury". They've only just announced that they want to pay more attention to themes, so it might be a bit of time before we see anything really substantial.

    Where this unfortunately breaks down is when players don't have the patience to wait for things to change or are too entitled to accept changes in general. I saw a lot of this when the stone fist update came out, e.g., "I don't like the fireball because it's not perfect/it's not exactly what I wanted". You asked for change and you got it; that should be a sign to you. Keep pushing.

    So, yes. I think the article was less damage control than you think it is.

    That is a load of crap.

    Stonefist as a spammable has one goal to achieve;

    Its to provide stamDK a tool to be relevant in trial groups. Done. Players will slot it not because they have been dying to weave some stonefist, but because they have no other option now.

    As for this whole we being impatient thing.. Lets make one thing very, very clear. I've asked for this yes, I've asked for a class alternative of heroic slash(when it was near suprise attack in tooltip), I always strongly disagreed with stonefist spammable , and went way out of my way to point out that I do not like the idea, nor anybody will. Do you know how long it has been since I've asked for a spammable though? Almost 3 years. So am I really impatient? 3 years is enough to make an entire game from nothing. I'm not impatient, not at all.

    We asked for stamina whip, emphasis on more poison/dragon themed abilities.

    And we got a rock + promise of more focus on earth theme.

    I don't think you're any good at paying attention to detail.

    It's kind of ironic that you accuse me of paying no attention to detail when, in the same post, you've paid no attention to what I'm arguing for. The point I put forward is that the developers changed the look of stonefist according to a sizable DK outcry. This has nothing to do with how the ability works (i.e., it is now a spammable), which is what for some strange reason you've decided to argue for when I've said nothing to the contrary.

    Regardless, I'll go up to bat for a point I didn't even put forward for your sake.

    DKs have, for a while, asked for a spammable. It doesn't matter that it's not your ideal of what a spammable should be on the class, or that it's not a stamina whip. The point I'd like to make abundantly clear to you is that, despite this, they've now changed it according to what the community has asked for. This is a world of difference from the team's response before the article was released, which was to do nothing for the most part -- So no, I'm sorry, you haven't been waiting for this change for three years because there was no statement put forward or even an effort to change it in the first place. You've just been asking for three years, and now they're changing things according to what you're asking for. How is this a step in the wrong direction? How is this proof that what they wrote in the article is not what they're just now focusing on? Instead, you've decided to chastise this new leadership based on what the old combat team did or did not do and reject any changes that the new team puts forward, even if it is better than you had. It makes no sense. It's borderline insanity, and petulant to boot.

    It might not be what you want now, but I think I'm relatively safe in thinking that we can see more changes later. That's the point I've been trying to get across.

    First off, Dks asked in a spammable in an era where weapon spammables outside of heroic slash was pure garbage. That was already a non-issue when this spammable we asked YEARS AGO, got added. The real reason this was added was, as I said to provide stamDk a guaranteed spot in trials without making it top DPS.

    As for the whole ''they changed the animation because they care and listen'' thing, They used the default stonefist animation for money saving purposes or laziness, and only after the outrage they panicked and added some flame effect to it.

    They did it because quite literally EVERYONE was meme'ing about it, stonefist even got its own emote on twitch and discord. What was supposed to bring the community and developers closer, ended up splitting them apart. Literally everyone hates stonefist, and Its only you and a few others(including developers unfortunately) that can't see why.

    (a little hint though; the color of the rock has not much to do with it)

    It also adds salt to the wound that the step in the ''right'' direction came with massive dot cost nerfs, nerfing and standartizing of corrosive armor(previously unique stamDk ability,now available to everyone in a cheaper, stronger form, onslaught.) and nerfing the cost of fossilize making it unsustainable for stamDk.

    The class flavor is absolutely ruined and you're telling me I'm insane for not being head over heels about it.

    Its not just about one ability though, I wouldn't mind stonefist all that much if there were other, meaningful changes. They could have done a lot of things to make it look like they truly cared and tried. They could have reduces the cost of molten armaments, or done something about the micro-shield of fragmented shield, or add weapon crit to cauterize, g ive igneous weapons a secondary effect of sorts...

    Look at all the things they could have done without changing any animations.

    If you're still too dense in the skull to understand my point, I'll put it on bold text one last time just for you.

    Stonefist is a spammable that exists to give stamDk a guaranteed spot in trial groups and finally be able to proc its own passives in PvE. The stun is slapped in there as a last second solution to the question of ''But what about PvP players?'' You're lying to yourself and calling me insane for pointing you at the truth, they do NOT care.

    I can't have a reasonable discussion with you when you refuse to read what I've stated and just keep repeating the same point I've already made an attempt to break down. I understand why you and others don't like the new stonefist, and I feel like I made that pretty clear in my last post. I'm not saying you have to be head over heels, gung-***, or whatever other positive turn of phrase when regarding the developers and the development direction. What I am saying is that something is better than nothing, and many DK players are either saying they prefer having nothing, or saying that the article is the wrong outlook to take, which is simply not true where the interests of class identity are concerned. Any point to the contrary you've made based on the quantifiable parts of a skill (e.g., how much damage it does, what it costs, what numerical effects it entails) is not even remotely on topic both in the context of this thread and in the article the OP mentions. That's a completely different kind of effort on ZOS's end, and one I am sure we can agree is not going as well as it could.

    The bottom line is getting upset this early in the game is a knee-jerk reaction, especially when the article was just released a month or so ago at the time of this post. This is a step in the right direction. It doesn't mean ZOS is out of the woods; it means we can finally count on change because they've stuck their necks out.

    A lot of the things you said are out of logic here. Doing something in a bad way is worse than not doing anything at all, Its especially worse after waiting for so long as it will upset the community, case in point, moving on.

    And functionality of an ability is half of its identity, so it DOES matter. What made wing so epic? The reflect and animation, how they complimented each other. Reflect is gone and now wings is the most boring ability ever in the game. Another example is dizzying swing, knock-up is gone and the ability completely lost its identity, regardless of its viability that is the case.

    So functionality of your abilities DOES contribute to class identity. When my ''class spammable'' looks bad, and also functions bad, then that means its an absolute failure. This is NOT a step in the right direction, your entire argument is based on the idea that It will get better in future, while up untill this point, things have been getting consistently worse for the class. It lost identity, not gained it. I gave you tons of examples which you COMPLETELY ignored because I guess its an hard to swallow pill?

    You can put your head in sand and pretend its not happening though. The class identity dev post wouldn't even happen if it was not for the Dk outcry. You should be thankful to the people who complained enough to make it happen, not bash and insult them.

    I think we fundamentally disagree. Not only have I made an effort to not insult anyone (which has not been reciprocated, thanks for talking to me like a child), the absolute unwillingness to dissect and analyze skills by the basis of the OPs topic (the article by ZOS) means that we can't discuss class identity in a topic-relevant way.

    I'll take a step back. In the context of sheer effectiveness (which is OFF-topic, if we go by the metrics the article details, which is in short the look and feel), I would concede that you have a point with wings and fossilize, but I would argue that their adjustments were made because of their effectiveness, and it has nothing to do with the line of discussion I'm attempting to go down. For example, fossilize has the exact look and feel it had before, because the cost was the only thing that changed. You can still use it on a stamdk; it's still there, and many do. It still looks the same and is exactly as satisfying as it was before. Now you just have to choose between using it and using wings instead of getting both. This isn't a consequence of stamdk losing identity, because in the end, the identity of the skill was never touched. Wings is a slightly different case and didn't get so lucky because its identity was so heavily tied to oppressing all semblance of other classes' identities (magblade, anyone?). Class identities don't work in a vacuum.

    We have to treat balance and identity separately because balance doesn't always imply that gameplay is going to be fun, as you've so aptly stated. The way you want to approach identity means that we'll end up with more skills like wings, where balance overrides identity... or worse, a rock-paper-scissors kind of balance we haven't seen since the likes of 2005-era MMOs, where identity overrides balance and mages beat warriors. I believe that there is a sweet spot we can reach where one isn't sacrificed at the expense of the other, but first we need to consider the problem in halves.

    I'll summarize, then I'm walking away: It's good that ZOS is finally on this page. At the very least, they've given us some ground and a PR statement we can hold them to later.

    Relevant parts of the article backing me up:
    ZOS wrote:
    Power fantasy refers to the fictional justification of your character's power and how it’s expressed through the look and feel of abilities.
    [...]
    This power fantasy, however, should not dictate or constrain your character's role in battle. One of our mantras for ESO is "play the way you want," and in this case, it means any class can fulfill any role (tank, dps, support/healer). To better achieve this ideal while also maintaining the unique fantasy flavor of each class, all class kits need to include the basic tools required to fulfill each role. To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines.
    [...]
    The second component of class identity focuses on play patterns, which are the specific mechanics and behaviors you have to learn, engage with, and master to achieve objectives in battle. While all healers might have an objective of "prevent ally health from reaching zero," you can achieve this through several effect behaviors: direct heals, heal over time, damage shields, and damage reduction, to name a few. Each of these effect behaviors exhibit benefits and limitations that, when combined with a triggering method, make them more or less effective in various contexts.
    [...]
    The triggering method itself is the other major factor of play patterns since it defines the inputs and conditions you must satisfy to trigger the effect behavior. Most abilities include conditions related to range, targeting, resource type, and resource cost.
    [...]
    That combination of triggering method and effect behavior establishes the mechanical feel of an ability, and when you string together several abilities in conjunction with core mechanics (movement, attack, block, etc.), a play pattern emerges. These play patterns are critical to reinforcing class identity by differentiating the experience along three axis: playing the same role with different classes, playing different roles with the same class, and engaging in PvE vs. PvP activities.
    [...]
    Hopefully we’ve shed light on how we use the term “class identity” internally. In summary, we define success as delivering class kits that combine cohesive, satisfying power fantasies with unique and effective play patterns. The end result should be the ability to fill any role with any class while retaining the look and feel of that class. You can expect future updates to include changes with this goal in mind.
    you and Rag are like the wife and I.

    W:"I'm NOT HAPPY with how the car mechanic fix our car after we paid him SO MUCH MONEY!"
    M:"yeah me too, but hey I chat with him on the phone and he knows it's not great and promised he'll do better. he even wrote something on a piece of paper with his promise."
    W:"we should get another mechanic!"
    M:"and risk having somebody worse? Like i said, i like where this is going..."
    W:"BUT im not happy with the result! and ALL the works he did in the past!!!"
    M:"All?"
    W:"YES! Well, maybe not all he even did something that i like BUT THATS NOT TEEHH PPOOOIINNT!"
    M:"aight I'm gonna go make coffee."


    to clarify: you're both right. maybe half empty half full disagreement, but you're actually not really contradicting each other lol
    Edited by Davadin on November 6, 2019 4:19PM
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
  • Rahar
    Rahar
    ✭✭✭✭
    Davadin wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Rahar wrote: »
    Controversial opinion warning.

    The fact that they've even updated stone fist to be a lava ball is a pretty big indicator that yeah, they're listening. If you've played a decent amount of time into any MMO you should know that developers changing the way that skills look for the community's sake is a big deal. As a developer myself, and knowing how much that skill set can make hourly, it's a bit of an investment to do something like that purely for the sake of looks and theme. And they've promised more.

    So I'd say they're listening and we can count on further bits and pieces here and there; think of it as little baby steps that will eventually work into the bigger picture, the "flame and fury". They've only just announced that they want to pay more attention to themes, so it might be a bit of time before we see anything really substantial.

    Where this unfortunately breaks down is when players don't have the patience to wait for things to change or are too entitled to accept changes in general. I saw a lot of this when the stone fist update came out, e.g., "I don't like the fireball because it's not perfect/it's not exactly what I wanted". You asked for change and you got it; that should be a sign to you. Keep pushing.

    So, yes. I think the article was less damage control than you think it is.

    That is a load of crap.

    Stonefist as a spammable has one goal to achieve;

    Its to provide stamDK a tool to be relevant in trial groups. Done. Players will slot it not because they have been dying to weave some stonefist, but because they have no other option now.

    As for this whole we being impatient thing.. Lets make one thing very, very clear. I've asked for this yes, I've asked for a class alternative of heroic slash(when it was near suprise attack in tooltip), I always strongly disagreed with stonefist spammable , and went way out of my way to point out that I do not like the idea, nor anybody will. Do you know how long it has been since I've asked for a spammable though? Almost 3 years. So am I really impatient? 3 years is enough to make an entire game from nothing. I'm not impatient, not at all.

    We asked for stamina whip, emphasis on more poison/dragon themed abilities.

    And we got a rock + promise of more focus on earth theme.

    I don't think you're any good at paying attention to detail.

    It's kind of ironic that you accuse me of paying no attention to detail when, in the same post, you've paid no attention to what I'm arguing for. The point I put forward is that the developers changed the look of stonefist according to a sizable DK outcry. This has nothing to do with how the ability works (i.e., it is now a spammable), which is what for some strange reason you've decided to argue for when I've said nothing to the contrary.

    Regardless, I'll go up to bat for a point I didn't even put forward for your sake.

    DKs have, for a while, asked for a spammable. It doesn't matter that it's not your ideal of what a spammable should be on the class, or that it's not a stamina whip. The point I'd like to make abundantly clear to you is that, despite this, they've now changed it according to what the community has asked for. This is a world of difference from the team's response before the article was released, which was to do nothing for the most part -- So no, I'm sorry, you haven't been waiting for this change for three years because there was no statement put forward or even an effort to change it in the first place. You've just been asking for three years, and now they're changing things according to what you're asking for. How is this a step in the wrong direction? How is this proof that what they wrote in the article is not what they're just now focusing on? Instead, you've decided to chastise this new leadership based on what the old combat team did or did not do and reject any changes that the new team puts forward, even if it is better than you had. It makes no sense. It's borderline insanity, and petulant to boot.

    It might not be what you want now, but I think I'm relatively safe in thinking that we can see more changes later. That's the point I've been trying to get across.

    First off, Dks asked in a spammable in an era where weapon spammables outside of heroic slash was pure garbage. That was already a non-issue when this spammable we asked YEARS AGO, got added. The real reason this was added was, as I said to provide stamDk a guaranteed spot in trials without making it top DPS.

    As for the whole ''they changed the animation because they care and listen'' thing, They used the default stonefist animation for money saving purposes or laziness, and only after the outrage they panicked and added some flame effect to it.

    They did it because quite literally EVERYONE was meme'ing about it, stonefist even got its own emote on twitch and discord. What was supposed to bring the community and developers closer, ended up splitting them apart. Literally everyone hates stonefist, and Its only you and a few others(including developers unfortunately) that can't see why.

    (a little hint though; the color of the rock has not much to do with it)

    It also adds salt to the wound that the step in the ''right'' direction came with massive dot cost nerfs, nerfing and standartizing of corrosive armor(previously unique stamDk ability,now available to everyone in a cheaper, stronger form, onslaught.) and nerfing the cost of fossilize making it unsustainable for stamDk.

    The class flavor is absolutely ruined and you're telling me I'm insane for not being head over heels about it.

    Its not just about one ability though, I wouldn't mind stonefist all that much if there were other, meaningful changes. They could have done a lot of things to make it look like they truly cared and tried. They could have reduces the cost of molten armaments, or done something about the micro-shield of fragmented shield, or add weapon crit to cauterize, g ive igneous weapons a secondary effect of sorts...

    Look at all the things they could have done without changing any animations.

    If you're still too dense in the skull to understand my point, I'll put it on bold text one last time just for you.

    Stonefist is a spammable that exists to give stamDk a guaranteed spot in trial groups and finally be able to proc its own passives in PvE. The stun is slapped in there as a last second solution to the question of ''But what about PvP players?'' You're lying to yourself and calling me insane for pointing you at the truth, they do NOT care.

    I can't have a reasonable discussion with you when you refuse to read what I've stated and just keep repeating the same point I've already made an attempt to break down. I understand why you and others don't like the new stonefist, and I feel like I made that pretty clear in my last post. I'm not saying you have to be head over heels, gung-***, or whatever other positive turn of phrase when regarding the developers and the development direction. What I am saying is that something is better than nothing, and many DK players are either saying they prefer having nothing, or saying that the article is the wrong outlook to take, which is simply not true where the interests of class identity are concerned. Any point to the contrary you've made based on the quantifiable parts of a skill (e.g., how much damage it does, what it costs, what numerical effects it entails) is not even remotely on topic both in the context of this thread and in the article the OP mentions. That's a completely different kind of effort on ZOS's end, and one I am sure we can agree is not going as well as it could.

    The bottom line is getting upset this early in the game is a knee-jerk reaction, especially when the article was just released a month or so ago at the time of this post. This is a step in the right direction. It doesn't mean ZOS is out of the woods; it means we can finally count on change because they've stuck their necks out.

    A lot of the things you said are out of logic here. Doing something in a bad way is worse than not doing anything at all, Its especially worse after waiting for so long as it will upset the community, case in point, moving on.

    And functionality of an ability is half of its identity, so it DOES matter. What made wing so epic? The reflect and animation, how they complimented each other. Reflect is gone and now wings is the most boring ability ever in the game. Another example is dizzying swing, knock-up is gone and the ability completely lost its identity, regardless of its viability that is the case.

    So functionality of your abilities DOES contribute to class identity. When my ''class spammable'' looks bad, and also functions bad, then that means its an absolute failure. This is NOT a step in the right direction, your entire argument is based on the idea that It will get better in future, while up untill this point, things have been getting consistently worse for the class. It lost identity, not gained it. I gave you tons of examples which you COMPLETELY ignored because I guess its an hard to swallow pill?

    You can put your head in sand and pretend its not happening though. The class identity dev post wouldn't even happen if it was not for the Dk outcry. You should be thankful to the people who complained enough to make it happen, not bash and insult them.

    I think we fundamentally disagree. Not only have I made an effort to not insult anyone (which has not been reciprocated, thanks for talking to me like a child), the absolute unwillingness to dissect and analyze skills by the basis of the OPs topic (the article by ZOS) means that we can't discuss class identity in a topic-relevant way.

    I'll take a step back. In the context of sheer effectiveness (which is OFF-topic, if we go by the metrics the article details, which is in short the look and feel), I would concede that you have a point with wings and fossilize, but I would argue that their adjustments were made because of their effectiveness, and it has nothing to do with the line of discussion I'm attempting to go down. For example, fossilize has the exact look and feel it had before, because the cost was the only thing that changed. You can still use it on a stamdk; it's still there, and many do. It still looks the same and is exactly as satisfying as it was before. Now you just have to choose between using it and using wings instead of getting both. This isn't a consequence of stamdk losing identity, because in the end, the identity of the skill was never touched. Wings is a slightly different case and didn't get so lucky because its identity was so heavily tied to oppressing all semblance of other classes' identities (magblade, anyone?). Class identities don't work in a vacuum.

    We have to treat balance and identity separately because balance doesn't always imply that gameplay is going to be fun, as you've so aptly stated. The way you want to approach identity means that we'll end up with more skills like wings, where balance overrides identity... or worse, a rock-paper-scissors kind of balance we haven't seen since the likes of 2005-era MMOs, where identity overrides balance and mages beat warriors. I believe that there is a sweet spot we can reach where one isn't sacrificed at the expense of the other, but first we need to consider the problem in halves.

    I'll summarize, then I'm walking away: It's good that ZOS is finally on this page. At the very least, they've given us some ground and a PR statement we can hold them to later.

    Relevant parts of the article backing me up:
    ZOS wrote:
    Power fantasy refers to the fictional justification of your character's power and how it’s expressed through the look and feel of abilities.
    [...]
    This power fantasy, however, should not dictate or constrain your character's role in battle. One of our mantras for ESO is "play the way you want," and in this case, it means any class can fulfill any role (tank, dps, support/healer). To better achieve this ideal while also maintaining the unique fantasy flavor of each class, all class kits need to include the basic tools required to fulfill each role. To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines.
    [...]
    The second component of class identity focuses on play patterns, which are the specific mechanics and behaviors you have to learn, engage with, and master to achieve objectives in battle. While all healers might have an objective of "prevent ally health from reaching zero," you can achieve this through several effect behaviors: direct heals, heal over time, damage shields, and damage reduction, to name a few. Each of these effect behaviors exhibit benefits and limitations that, when combined with a triggering method, make them more or less effective in various contexts.
    [...]
    The triggering method itself is the other major factor of play patterns since it defines the inputs and conditions you must satisfy to trigger the effect behavior. Most abilities include conditions related to range, targeting, resource type, and resource cost.
    [...]
    That combination of triggering method and effect behavior establishes the mechanical feel of an ability, and when you string together several abilities in conjunction with core mechanics (movement, attack, block, etc.), a play pattern emerges. These play patterns are critical to reinforcing class identity by differentiating the experience along three axis: playing the same role with different classes, playing different roles with the same class, and engaging in PvE vs. PvP activities.
    [...]
    Hopefully we’ve shed light on how we use the term “class identity” internally. In summary, we define success as delivering class kits that combine cohesive, satisfying power fantasies with unique and effective play patterns. The end result should be the ability to fill any role with any class while retaining the look and feel of that class. You can expect future updates to include changes with this goal in mind.
    you and Rag are like the wife and I.

    W:"I'm NOT HAPPY with how the car mechanic fix our car after we paid him SO MUCH MONEY!"
    M:"yeah me too, but hey I chat with him on the phone and he knows it's not great and promised he'll do better. he even wrote something on a piece of paper with his promise."
    W:"we should get another mechanic!"
    M:"and risk having somebody worse? Like i said, i like where this is going..."
    W:"BUT im not happy with the result! and ALL the works he did in the past!!!"
    M:"All?"
    W:"YES! Well, maybe not all he even did something that i like BUT THATS NOT TEEHH PPOOOIINNT!"
    M:"aight I'm gonna go make coffee."


    to clarify: you're both right. maybe half empty half full disagreement, but you're actually not really contradicting each other lol

    big true
    NeRf MaGsOrC
  • Sahidom
    Sahidom
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    I'm chiming in on the conversation.

    First, Dragon Knights are not the burst damage dealers as Sorcerers or Nightblades; Nor should they be. The class, whether it's stamina or magic, are "masters" of the attrition warfare: Immobilizing or snaring adversaries to lock them into prolonged encounters, using skills that counter ranged combat and fortifying their resistances, or using DOT damage to pressure opponents to consume valuable resources to purge/heal/defend against this pressure, and those few skill/passive synergies to build up burst combos when the opponent unwisely stays too close to them.

    This is the Dragon Knight, in a nut shell. Also. The class itself has probably the best balanced class kit under the current build that remains fairly close to it's own distinct class identity.

    Second, I sympathize with the discussion about Stone Fist.

    The Stone Fist (stamina) has a) a stack limitation/cap of three (3) so there's no meaningful build-up and b) the Stun should seriously be changed to Disoriented (the similar stun effect that cannot be blocked). It's cost should be reduced by 10% minimum, or more, without Helping Hands passive consideration on the skill cost. At least then, you gain a ST stamina ability similar to cost advantages of the Draw Essence skill, where it then supports attrition battles.

    Optimally, Stone Fist would have a) have a stack cap of five (5) to have a better, meaningful build-up and b) on the fifth hit should consume and reset the Staggering stack count to Disorient the target, and c) have a cheaper casting cost instead of using Helping Hands to reduce it's casting cost with a higher upfront cost with an anticipated cost refund.
    Edited by Sahidom on November 8, 2019 3:12AM
  • Davadin
    Davadin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sahidom wrote: »
    I'm chiming in on the conversation.

    First, Dragon Knights are not the burst damage dealers as Sorcerers or Nightblades; Nor should they be.....

    right.
    using DOT damage to pressure opponents ...and ...to build up burst combos when the opponent unwisely stays too close to them.

    This is the Dragon Knight, in a nut shell.
    ...but you just said it's not a burst class.



    DK IMHO should be a balanced class. they can do decent burst, and great attrition.

    our burst now are stiffled thanks to the healing buff couple patches ago, and our "great" attrition/DoT has been nerfed beyond the pre-Elswyr-buff values, making us completely absolutely utterly no better than other classes.

    a.k.a. we lost our identity.


    and the Stone Fist? while I DO appreciate their effort and it does somewhat works in PvE, is still completely utterly unbelievably impeccably useless in PvP.
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
  • Rampeal
    Rampeal
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    StamDK needs Green Dragonblood to be a stam morph.
  • Zacuel
    Zacuel
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    Are we still talking about dk?

    Seeing a bit of a drawn out quote war....
  • Sahidom
    Sahidom
    ✭✭✭✭
    Davadin wrote: »
    Sahidom wrote: »
    I'm chiming in on the conversation.

    First, Dragon Knights are not the burst damage dealers as Sorcerers or Nightblades; Nor should they be.....

    right.
    using DOT damage to pressure opponents ...and ...to build up burst combos when the opponent unwisely stays too close to them.

    This is the Dragon Knight, in a nut shell.
    ...but you just said it's not a burst class.



    DK IMHO should be a balanced class. they can do decent burst, and great attrition.

    our burst now are stiffled thanks to the healing buff couple patches ago, and our "great" attrition/DoT has been nerfed beyond the pre-Elswyr-buff values, making us completely absolutely utterly no better than other classes.

    a.k.a. we lost our identity.


    and the Stone Fist? while I DO appreciate their effort and it does somewhat works in PvE, is still completely utterly unbelievably impeccably useless in PvP.

    All classes have their own "burst" oriented skills, including Dragon Knights; however, "burst combos" can be created by using various direct damage sources: class and non-class skills, damage proc item sets, ultimate with direct damage... While I'm referencing "burst combos" then this was my preconception on how to generate more direct damage on any target that's not source exclusive to the class kit skills and passives. So, I do agree the class should be balanced. Everything I've listed is the class in a nutshell - the class kit does have skill/passive synergies to help create those burst combos.

    I don't feel the class completely lost it's identity. The class kit still has about the same attrition capacity except more skills are involved that restricts other slot choices. The healing buff and Update 24 essentially turned DOT damage into a counter-healing role, so damage done possibly negates the healing received. We did lose some identity under the current conditions - even with the Update 24 concession that increases our class DOT skills.

    Compared to other classes, whether its stamina or magic builds, the Dragon Knight are in a better place. Stone Fist does need tuning, should it's purpose be the class's stamina combat attrition skill. And, It's usefulness in PVP is unreliable and expensive: 11K+ stamina and 3 GCD to get one stun effect on the target. That's too much compared to other stunning hit skills. You'd would have more benefit with a higher Staggered stack count that cannot be purged/cleansed e.g. a stacking "status effect" to prevent multiple Staggering stacking effects on one target and remove the stun effect. That would change the skill would be a damage amplifier for solo or group play.

    Then, Fossilize, and it's morphs, would need to have an increased range (at least 15 meters) to help lock distant targets down.
    Edited by Sahidom on November 8, 2019 12:05PM
  • Davadin
    Davadin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    Sahidom wrote: »
    I'm chiming in on the conversation.

    First, Dragon Knights are not the burst damage dealers as Sorcerers or Nightblades; Nor should they be.....

    right.
    using DOT damage to pressure opponents ...and ...to build up burst combos when the opponent unwisely stays too close to them.

    This is the Dragon Knight, in a nut shell.
    ...but you just said it's not a burst class.



    DK IMHO should be a balanced class. they can do decent burst, and great attrition.

    our burst now are stiffled thanks to the healing buff couple patches ago, and our "great" attrition/DoT has been nerfed beyond the pre-Elswyr-buff values, making us completely absolutely utterly no better than other classes.

    a.k.a. we lost our identity.


    and the Stone Fist? while I DO appreciate their effort and it does somewhat works in PvE, is still completely utterly unbelievably impeccably useless in PvP.

    All classes have their own "burst" oriented skills, including Dragon Knights; however, "burst combos" can be created by using various direct damage sources: class and non-class skills, damage proc item sets, ultimate with direct damage... While I'm referencing "burst combos" then this was my preconception on how to generate more direct damage on any target that's not source exclusive to the class kit skills and passives. So, I do agree the class should be balanced. Everything I've listed is the class in a nutshell - the class kit does have skill/passive synergies to help create those burst combos..

    can you give an example of a stamDK "burst" oriented skills?
    Also, another example of stamDK's skill/pasive that can help create a (class and non-class skills) burst combos?

    lastly, what do you think is stamDK's unique strength compared to other classes?
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
  • Sahidom
    Sahidom
    ✭✭✭✭
    Davadin wrote: »
    can you give an example of a stamDK "burst" oriented skills?
    Also, another example of stamDK's skill/pasive that can help create a (class and non-class skills) burst combos?
    Your first two question are difficult to answer b/c it's heavily dependent on weapon skills and ultimate. You're either building for direct damage, or building to let sets work for you, or you're blending proc and direct damage. Stamina versions share the same estranged relationship as the stamina sorcerers, in which they're more reliant on non-class skills for any decent-to-high damage hits. But, we could also get into a circular discussion about what he/she should do for "burst," or gear setups, so I will gracefully decline to go down that rabbit hole.
    lastly, what do you think is stamDK's unique strength compared to other classes?
    Let's cut to the chase here, the original stamina version was designed to be tanks. So, their unique strengths are centered around the numerous attrition skills available to them. Down side though, you're hard press to fully utilize those attrition skills with an "all-in" for max. stamina builds. Also. Heavy armor have a strong synergy with the class kit skills.

    Edited: Deleted the unnecessary.
    Edited by Sahidom on November 10, 2019 9:36PM
  • Vlad9425
    Vlad9425
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    ✭✭
    Stam DK can throw flaming turds now so obviously class identity is restored.
  • juhislihis19
    juhislihis19
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    To give DK more identity, the class passives should be looked at. Necro's passives are ALL useful and directed at both mag and stam. And IMO they work for PVP and PVE.

    1st issue: Some of DK's passives are flawed (PVP wise):

    Elder Dragon: you get nothing from slotting skills. Ridiculous Elder Dragon gives you 5% health recovery for slotting Draconic Power skills but who really cares about this? Only someone who would want to try a HP rec tank. Spiked Armor and Leap are often used, so you get 10% HP recovery from slotting your class skills, yippee!

    Then there's "Increase range of your instant melee attacks by 2 meters." in the same passive. This was brought after we DK's cried enough. For a stam character, this only affects the 2H execute, Venomous Claw (only class skill lol) and few SnB skills - which were drastically changed.

    World in Ruin: Increases Poison and Flame AoE damage 6%. Which skills are these exactly? Only skills for sDK affected is Corrosive. IMO this passive is inferior compared to other classes "damage done" or "increases weapon/spell damage" passives.

    Eternal Mountain: increases the duration of Earthen Heart abilities by 20%. So 2 seconds more to Magma Armor, 3s to Ash Cloud (who no one uses). No need to mention Molten Weapons. This passive is just plain lazy.


    2nd issue: lack of stamina morphs

    So for a sDK, my lack of identity is lack of stamina morphs. We got a stamina spammable, but no one asked it to be a flaming poop. 4k magicka Fossilize is too much for a stamina character. Either that or Spiked Armor should have stamina morphs. Which other class (apart from stamsorc) has a stamina-based resistance skill? I really like Hurricane. Stamina-based Ward/Resolve, AoE DoT, Minor Expedition. This skill would solve so many sDK problems (mobility, stamina morph, more DoTs for a DoT class). I don't think I need to mention how Spiked Armor doesn't offer sDK any secondary effect as the DoT is terrible and the damage shield useless.

    Wouldn't mind a stamina morph for Inhale, as the skill itself is aesthetically cool.


    3rd issue: mobility

    Yea yea there's Fiery Grip, and it sucks. The whole skill should be reworked since FG already offers a chain pull skill. Looking at Cloak, Bolt Escape (and Hurricane's Expedition), Falcon's Swiftness.. DK again needs to rely on weapon or guild skills if you want to move faster.
  • Davadin
    Davadin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    can you give an example of a stamDK "burst" oriented skills?
    Also, another example of stamDK's skill/pasive that can help create a (class and non-class skills) burst combos?
    Your first two question are difficult to answer b/c it's heavily dependent on weapon skills and ultimate. You're either building for direct damage, or building to let sets work for you, or you're blending proc and direct damage. Stamina versions share the same estranged relationship as the stamina sorcerers, in which they're more reliant on non-class skills for any decent-to-high damage hits. But, we could also get into a circular discussion about what he/she should do for "burst," or gear setups, so I will gracefully decline to go down that rabbit hole.
    i agree and disagree.

    while i agree, similarly to stamsorc, we (stamDK) relies on on-class skills, i disagree we can be as effective as stamsorcs.

    why?
    lastly, what do you think is stamDK's unique strength compared to other classes?
    Let's cut to the chase here, the original stamina version was designed to be tanks. So, their unique strengths are centered around the numerous attrition skills available to them. Down side though, you're hard press to fully utilize those attrition skills with an "all-in" for max. stamina builds. Also. Heavy armor have a strong synergy with the class kit skills.

    Edited: Deleted the unnecessary.

    that's right.

    stamDK are build to be tanks. we are comfortable in heavy armor. our passives are build for attrition. we are born and bred to wield a shield.

    and guess what? the last couple of months, attrition has been shot dead. dead like a *** door nail.


    thats why, yes, we can do "burst", but we will never be as good as similarly build other stamina classes. and also why our identity, our strength, have been bleached into non-existant, so much that other class can easily - EASILY - build a class just as tanky as stamDK.


    TLDR; stamDK isn't any better than all other class when it comes to burst OR attrition. bye bye identity.
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
  • Sahidom
    Sahidom
    ✭✭✭✭
    Davadin wrote: »
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    can you give an example of a stamDK "burst" oriented skills?
    Also, another example of stamDK's skill/pasive that can help create a (class and non-class skills) burst combos?
    Your first two question are difficult to answer b/c it's heavily dependent on weapon skills and ultimate. You're either building for direct damage, or building to let sets work for you, or you're blending proc and direct damage. Stamina versions share the same estranged relationship as the stamina sorcerers, in which they're more reliant on non-class skills for any decent-to-high damage hits. But, we could also get into a circular discussion about what he/she should do for "burst," or gear setups, so I will gracefully decline to go down that rabbit hole.
    i agree and disagree.

    while i agree, similarly to stamsorc, we (stamDK) relies on on-class skills, i disagree we can be as effective as stamsorcs.

    why?
    lastly, what do you think is stamDK's unique strength compared to other classes?
    Let's cut to the chase here, the original stamina version was designed to be tanks. So, their unique strengths are centered around the numerous attrition skills available to them. Down side though, you're hard press to fully utilize those attrition skills with an "all-in" for max. stamina builds. Also. Heavy armor have a strong synergy with the class kit skills.

    Edited: Deleted the unnecessary.

    that's right.

    stamDK are build to be tanks. we are comfortable in heavy armor. our passives are build for attrition. we are born and bred to wield a shield.

    and guess what? the last couple of months, attrition has been shot dead. dead like a *** door nail.


    thats why, yes, we can do "burst", but we will never be as good as similarly build other stamina classes. and also why our identity, our strength, have been bleached into non-existant, so much that other class can easily - EASILY - build a class just as tanky as stamDK.


    TLDR; stamDK isn't any better than all other class when it comes to burst OR attrition. bye bye identity.

    I agree and understand your disagreements. The class was meant to be tanks, however, this classic definition for tanks is inapplicable in player-versus-player content. Excluding non-class skills, the class has poor unique strengths that separates them from other heavy armor combatants: whether it's s/b, 2H or DW and using Bow for ranged engagements. Others have similar +resistances, burst healing, ranged defensive skills, damage shields..., and the class's affinity for poisons imposes limitations on the skill and gear setups; and doing so under Update 24 costs more than it's worth.

    That's sort of known without needing to be said.

    The developer's need to make tough choices on how their going approach class identity. We are comfortable in heavy armor, and IF this is the direction the class is moving towards (not exclusive to stamina) THEN our passives should include some offensive benefits while we're gearing up. For instance, replacing replaced World in Ruin passive something more beneficial, such as the old Wrath passive, except scaled similar to Alessian Order but +SD/WD scaling to 0.01% of their total resistances. Then, this type of change does multiple things, and would indirectly provide similar benefits under the current passive description; but also expand the passive's ability into stamina class and non-class abilities to provide a unique strength of the Dragon Knight.

    I feel this passive change wouldn't be too overpowering and would be significant enough to lend support to either medium or heavy armor class builds. IF, we're meant to be more optimal using a shield then this passive would at least help our s/b attacks deal better damage.

    The class has good attrition skills; even with the changes to wings when you calculate in damage mitigation. Where the challenge is for stamina users is the cost-to-use limitations due to the limited magic resource pool. So some cost mitigation on the skills is needed; such as, possibly replacing Eternal Mountain to a similar effect of the Summoner's Armor except the passive would reduce the next casting cost of Spiked Armor, Obsidian Shield, and Protective Scales by -15% while an Earth skill is active. These are the three main attrition skills for defense, and the passive change supports wearing heavy armor.

    All of these suggestions are centered around heavy armor because it's the most common denominator of the class. The passive change on Eternal Mountain doesn't caste type you into using heavy armor; it offers better resource management whether you're stamina or magic oriented. ...and resource management plays into attrition warfare.

    Would this be enough to improve the stamina oriented class identity?
    Edited by Sahidom on November 12, 2019 5:25PM
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    can you give an example of a stamDK "burst" oriented skills?
    Also, another example of stamDK's skill/pasive that can help create a (class and non-class skills) burst combos?
    Your first two question are difficult to answer b/c it's heavily dependent on weapon skills and ultimate. You're either building for direct damage, or building to let sets work for you, or you're blending proc and direct damage. Stamina versions share the same estranged relationship as the stamina sorcerers, in which they're more reliant on non-class skills for any decent-to-high damage hits. But, we could also get into a circular discussion about what he/she should do for "burst," or gear setups, so I will gracefully decline to go down that rabbit hole.
    i agree and disagree.

    while i agree, similarly to stamsorc, we (stamDK) relies on on-class skills, i disagree we can be as effective as stamsorcs.

    why?
    lastly, what do you think is stamDK's unique strength compared to other classes?
    Let's cut to the chase here, the original stamina version was designed to be tanks. So, their unique strengths are centered around the numerous attrition skills available to them. Down side though, you're hard press to fully utilize those attrition skills with an "all-in" for max. stamina builds. Also. Heavy armor have a strong synergy with the class kit skills.

    Edited: Deleted the unnecessary.

    that's right.

    stamDK are build to be tanks. we are comfortable in heavy armor. our passives are build for attrition. we are born and bred to wield a shield.

    and guess what? the last couple of months, attrition has been shot dead. dead like a *** door nail.


    thats why, yes, we can do "burst", but we will never be as good as similarly build other stamina classes. and also why our identity, our strength, have been bleached into non-existant, so much that other class can easily - EASILY - build a class just as tanky as stamDK.


    TLDR; stamDK isn't any better than all other class when it comes to burst OR attrition. bye bye identity.

    I agree and understand your disagreements. The class was meant to be tanks, however, this classic definition for tanks is inapplicable in player-versus-player content. Excluding non-class skills, the class has poor unique strengths that separates them from other heavy armor combatants: whether it's s/b, 2H or DW and using Bow for ranged engagements. Others have similar +resistances, burst healing, ranged defensive skills, damage shields..., and the class's affinity for poisons imposes limitations on the skill and gear setups; and doing so under Update 24 costs more than it's worth.

    That's sort of known without needing to be said.

    The developer's need to make tough choices on how their going approach class identity. We are comfortable in heavy armor, and IF this is the direction the class is moving towards (not exclusive to stamina) THEN our passives should include some offensive benefits while we're gearing up. For instance, replacing replaced World in Ruin passive something more beneficial, such as the old Wrath passive, except scaled similar to Alessian Order but +SD/WD scaling to 0.01% of their total resistances. Then, this type of change does multiple things, and would indirectly provide similar benefits under the current passive description; but also expand the passive's ability into stamina class and non-class abilities to provide a unique strength of the Dragon Knight.

    I feel this passive change wouldn't be too overpowering and would be significant enough to lend support to either medium or heavy armor class builds. IF, we're meant to be more optimal using a shield then this passive would at least help our s/b attacks deal better damage.

    The class has good attrition skills; even with the changes to wings when you calculate in damage mitigation. Where the challenge is for stamina users is the cost-to-use limitations due to the limited magic resource pool. So some cost mitigation on the skills is needed; such as, possibly replacing Eternal Mountain to a similar effect of the Summoner's Armor except the passive would reduce the next casting cost of Spiked Armor, Obsidian Shield, and Protective Scales by -15% while an Earth skill is active. These are the three main attrition skills for defense, and the passive change supports wearing heavy armor.

    All of these suggestions are centered around heavy armor because it's the most common denominator of the class. The passive change on Eternal Mountain doesn't caste type you into using heavy armor; it offers better resource management whether you're stamina or magic oriented. ...and resource management plays into attrition warfare.

    Would this be enough to improve the stamina oriented class identity?

    Regarding heavy armor synergy, stamDk used to have max stamina scaling on battle roar and helping hands, rewarding them for stacking max stamina and using heavy armor / SnB combo.

    Abilities like green dragon blood, talons,molten armaments etc also used to work well on stamDk but either got changed/nerfed or fell out of meta.

    corrosive having dot penetration, reverb bash having defile and pre-nerf heroic slash were also very clearly designed with stamDk tank builds in mind.

    This was Wrobel's intended design choice for stamDks in PvP. It was never really supposed to be an ''attrition class''. But rather It was a tank class that happened to do moderate damage.

    Its all down to TTK really. Before the dawn of tank meta stamDk was the only stam class that was actively encouraged to use heavy armor. It was the ''brawler class''. That is the identity of stamDk. You don't spam stonefist and scream ATTRITION at your screen. You play stamDK because you want to fight, you want to stand your ground, get in their face be the unstoppable force. Thats all there is to it.

    But lets focus more on playstyles based on time to kill(TTK), and how that affects your build and gameplay as a whole.

    There are two ways to kill a player in ESO.

    1. You burst them.

    2. You run them out of resources.

    First is obvious, you have the tools to burst so you burst people to death, which is faster and more efficient. This is how sorcs, nightblades,wardens play right now. They burst you down. For the less fortunate , you have the second option, run them out of resources. Use defiles, CC, debuffs, dots , everything you can to choke your opponent. This is how Dks and templars used to play. Right now Dks pretty much mimic other classes because high TTK is dead in the current meta with healing out of control and defile nowhere to be seen.

    So stamDk wasn't always an ''attrition'' class as they refer to it. wrecking blow into leap and 2h/bow medium armor was the root of how this class used to be played. Thats a burst build btw, not attrition, ONLY after they nerfed that combination and buffed heavy armor, stamDks pretty much went for the second, high TTK model because they no longer had good enough burst. The game gave them tools to play high TTK; innate tankyness, class dots, and SnB/2h giving them everything else they lack.(execute, spammable,CC, burst heal/major brutality/gapcloser... Really It was just a tank class that used weapon abilities.)

    Problem began after they destroyed many things stamDk compensated from weapon abilities, and when they gave stonefist in return of all the indirect nerfs, It was the ultimate b**** slap.

    So when they say ''we're gonna improve class identity for stamina dragonknights'', thats essentially building a new class out of nothing but two dots and half baked ideas like ''attrition'', but Its even harder than that because they have to make sure they don't hurt magDks too much in the process. Its not an easy job, It really requires passion and an unbreakable will cause even if they make a perfect job with stamDK, magDks will complain that they lost some of their abilities, no matter how good of a job they do, somebody will complain in the end.

    (And what do they get for doing a good job? They'll gain the trust of like what?.... the last 10 stamDk mains left or something like that. I can't really blame them for doing a lazy job and taking the least favourite ability from magDks.)

    Now here's the problem with all that though, when you think of stamDK, what do you think? Tanky guy right?

    What exactly gives me tankyness?

    hardened/volatile armor(enables healing received passive)
    Fragmented shield(major mending, a must have.)
    Cauterize(heal over time, again must have after momentum nerfs)
    Wings(%50 projectile mitigation for 6 sec, must have since Dk has no mobility.)

    See the theme yet? These are all magicka based abilities. All the utility abilities like fossilize, talons etc are also magicka based. Pretty much everything in Dk kit is magicka based. If you give Dks more magicka sustain in their kit, you're not giving stamDK more identity, you're basically giving them even more reasons to reroll magDk since both classes share same abilities.

    So thats why your idea will not really work out as you think, unless its tied specificly to stamina abilities. But even then Its sad that volatile armor doesn't have a physical damage counterpart, cauterize doesn't have weapon crit, FoO/standart deals fire damage not poison, never poison. Fragmented shield is basically old igneous shield without the fat shield.(They could have done something interesting with one of the morphs here, Its lost opportunity,frag shield used to explode and deal damage, they could take away the AoE shield from it and do something cool with it in return, Its as I said, lost opportunity. Nobody but trial tanks use igneous shield, nobody but stamDK use fragmented shield. Its a bad way to diversify morphs.)...

    Overall they said they want classes to be viable at all roles so thats why they nerfed stamDk's ''attrition'' tools, I'm guessing. But if that is the case they're gonna give us some form of mobility and damage options. Unfortunately stonefist doesn't do any of that. Its essentially an ability I will not be using, or even if I use it won't do anything that weapon spammables don't, which is why I'm so mad over this.

    The identity for stamina Dk MUST come from new stamina morphs or passives SPECIFICLY designed for stamina players to use. Not for tank DKs, not for magicka DKs, specificly stamina Dks. I'd mainly appreciate the option to give up some of the built-in tankyness for mobility/burst tools.

    I don't see it happening though.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on November 12, 2019 7:18PM
  • Davadin
    Davadin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    can you give an example of a stamDK "burst" oriented skills?
    Also, another example of stamDK's skill/pasive that can help create a (class and non-class skills) burst combos?
    Your first two question are difficult to answer b/c it's heavily dependent on weapon skills and ultimate. You're either building for direct damage, or building to let sets work for you, or you're blending proc and direct damage. Stamina versions share the same estranged relationship as the stamina sorcerers, in which they're more reliant on non-class skills for any decent-to-high damage hits. But, we could also get into a circular discussion about what he/she should do for "burst," or gear setups, so I will gracefully decline to go down that rabbit hole.
    i agree and disagree.

    while i agree, similarly to stamsorc, we (stamDK) relies on on-class skills, i disagree we can be as effective as stamsorcs.

    why?
    lastly, what do you think is stamDK's unique strength compared to other classes?
    Let's cut to the chase here, the original stamina version was designed to be tanks. So, their unique strengths are centered around the numerous attrition skills available to them. Down side though, you're hard press to fully utilize those attrition skills with an "all-in" for max. stamina builds. Also. Heavy armor have a strong synergy with the class kit skills.

    Edited: Deleted the unnecessary.

    that's right.

    stamDK are build to be tanks. we are comfortable in heavy armor. our passives are build for attrition. we are born and bred to wield a shield.

    and guess what? the last couple of months, attrition has been shot dead. dead like a *** door nail.


    thats why, yes, we can do "burst", but we will never be as good as similarly build other stamina classes. and also why our identity, our strength, have been bleached into non-existant, so much that other class can easily - EASILY - build a class just as tanky as stamDK.


    TLDR; stamDK isn't any better than all other class when it comes to burst OR attrition. bye bye identity.

    I agree and understand your disagreements. The class was meant to be tanks, however, this classic definition for tanks is inapplicable in player-versus-player content. Excluding non-class skills, the class has poor unique strengths that separates them from other heavy armor combatants: whether it's s/b, 2H or DW and using Bow for ranged engagements. Others have similar +resistances, burst healing, ranged defensive skills, damage shields..., and the class's affinity for poisons imposes limitations on the skill and gear setups; and doing so under Update 24 costs more than it's worth.

    That's sort of known without needing to be said.

    The developer's need to make tough choices on how their going approach class identity. We are comfortable in heavy armor, and IF this is the direction the class is moving towards (not exclusive to stamina) THEN our passives should include some offensive benefits while we're gearing up. For instance, replacing replaced World in Ruin passive something more beneficial, such as the old Wrath passive, except scaled similar to Alessian Order but +SD/WD scaling to 0.01% of their total resistances. Then, this type of change does multiple things, and would indirectly provide similar benefits under the current passive description; but also expand the passive's ability into stamina class and non-class abilities to provide a unique strength of the Dragon Knight.

    I feel this passive change wouldn't be too overpowering and would be significant enough to lend support to either medium or heavy armor class builds. IF, we're meant to be more optimal using a shield then this passive would at least help our s/b attacks deal better damage.

    The class has good attrition skills; even with the changes to wings when you calculate in damage mitigation. Where the challenge is for stamina users is the cost-to-use limitations due to the limited magic resource pool. So some cost mitigation on the skills is needed; such as, possibly replacing Eternal Mountain to a similar effect of the Summoner's Armor except the passive would reduce the next casting cost of Spiked Armor, Obsidian Shield, and Protective Scales by -15% while an Earth skill is active. These are the three main attrition skills for defense, and the passive change supports wearing heavy armor.

    All of these suggestions are centered around heavy armor because it's the most common denominator of the class. The passive change on Eternal Mountain doesn't caste type you into using heavy armor; it offers better resource management whether you're stamina or magic oriented. ...and resource management plays into attrition warfare.

    Would this be enough to improve the stamina oriented class identity?

    Regarding heavy armor synergy, stamDk used to have max stamina scaling on battle roar and helping hands, rewarding them for stacking max stamina and using heavy armor / SnB combo.

    Abilities like green dragon blood, talons,molten armaments etc also used to work well on stamDk but either got changed/nerfed or fell out of meta.

    corrosive having dot penetration, reverb bash having defile and pre-nerf heroic slash were also very clearly designed with stamDk tank builds in mind.

    This was Wrobel's intended design choice for stamDks in PvP. It was never really supposed to be an ''attrition class''. But rather It was a tank class that happened to do moderate damage.

    Its all down to TTK really. Before the dawn of tank meta stamDk was the only stam class that was actively encouraged to use heavy armor. It was the ''brawler class''. That is the identity of stamDk. You don't spam stonefist and scream ATTRITION at your screen. You play stamDK because you want to fight, you want to stand your ground, get in their face be the unstoppable force. Thats all there is to it.

    But lets focus more on playstyles based on time to kill(TTK), and how that affects your build and gameplay as a whole.

    There are two ways to kill a player in ESO.

    1. You burst them.

    2. You run them out of resources.

    First is obvious, you have the tools to burst so you burst people to death, which is faster and more efficient. This is how sorcs, nightblades,wardens play right now. They burst you down. For the less fortunate , you have the second option, run them out of resources. Use defiles, CC, debuffs, dots , everything you can to choke your opponent. This is how Dks and templars used to play. Right now Dks pretty much mimic other classes because high TTK is dead in the current meta with healing out of control and defile nowhere to be seen.

    So stamDk wasn't always an ''attrition'' class as they refer to it. wrecking blow into leap and 2h/bow medium armor was the root of how this class used to be played. Thats a burst build btw, not attrition, ONLY after they nerfed that combination and buffed heavy armor, stamDks pretty much went for the second, high TTK model because they no longer had good enough burst. The game gave them tools to play high TTK; innate tankyness, class dots, and SnB/2h giving them everything else they lack.(execute, spammable,CC, burst heal/major brutality/gapcloser... Really It was just a tank class that used weapon abilities.)

    Problem began after they destroyed many things stamDk compensated from weapon abilities, and when they gave stonefist in return of all the indirect nerfs, It was the ultimate b**** slap.

    So when they say ''we're gonna improve class identity for stamina dragonknights'', thats essentially building a new class out of nothing but two dots and half baked ideas like ''attrition'', but Its even harder than that because they have to make sure they don't hurt magDks too much in the process. Its not an easy job, It really requires passion and an unbreakable will cause even if they make a perfect job with stamDK, magDks will complain that they lost some of their abilities, no matter how good of a job they do, somebody will complain in the end.

    (And what do they get for doing a good job? They'll gain the trust of like what?.... the last 10 stamDk mains left or something like that. I can't really blame them for doing a lazy job and taking the least favourite ability from magDks.)

    Now here's the problem with all that though, when you think of stamDK, what do you think? Tanky guy right?

    What exactly gives me tankyness?

    hardened/volatile armor(enables healing received passive)
    Fragmented shield(major mending, a must have.)
    Cauterize(heal over time, again must have after momentum nerfs)
    Wings(%50 projectile mitigation for 6 sec, must have since Dk has no mobility.)

    See the theme yet? These are all magicka based abilities. All the utility abilities like fossilize, talons etc are also magicka based. Pretty much everything in Dk kit is magicka based. If you give Dks more magicka sustain in their kit, you're not giving stamDK more identity, you're basically giving them even more reasons to reroll magDk since both classes share same abilities.

    So thats why your idea will not really work out as you think, unless its tied specificly to stamina abilities. But even then Its sad that volatile armor doesn't have a physical damage counterpart, cauterize doesn't have weapon crit, FoO/standart deals fire damage not poison, never poison. Fragmented shield is basically old igneous shield without the fat shield.(They could have done something interesting with one of the morphs here, Its lost opportunity)...

    Overall they said they want classes to be viable at all roles so thats why they nerfed stamDk's ''attrition'' tools, I'm guessing. But if that is the case they're gonna give us some form of mobility and damage options. Unfortunately stonefist doesn't do any of that. Its essentially an ability I will not be using, or even if I use it won't do anything that weapon spammables don't, which is why I'm so mad over this.

    The identity for stamina Dk MUST come from new stamina morphs or passives SPECIFICLY designed for stamina players to use. Not for tank DKs, not for magicka DKs, specificly stamina Dks. I'd mainly appreciate the option to give up some of the built-in tankyness for mobility/burst tools.

    I don't see it happening though.

    source.gif

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett
    Edited by Davadin on November 12, 2019 7:20PM
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
  • juhislihis19
    juhislihis19
    ✭✭✭✭
    Davadin wrote: »
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    can you give an example of a stamDK "burst" oriented skills?
    Also, another example of stamDK's skill/pasive that can help create a (class and non-class skills) burst combos?
    Your first two question are difficult to answer b/c it's heavily dependent on weapon skills and ultimate. You're either building for direct damage, or building to let sets work for you, or you're blending proc and direct damage. Stamina versions share the same estranged relationship as the stamina sorcerers, in which they're more reliant on non-class skills for any decent-to-high damage hits. But, we could also get into a circular discussion about what he/she should do for "burst," or gear setups, so I will gracefully decline to go down that rabbit hole.
    i agree and disagree.

    while i agree, similarly to stamsorc, we (stamDK) relies on on-class skills, i disagree we can be as effective as stamsorcs.

    why?
    lastly, what do you think is stamDK's unique strength compared to other classes?
    Let's cut to the chase here, the original stamina version was designed to be tanks. So, their unique strengths are centered around the numerous attrition skills available to them. Down side though, you're hard press to fully utilize those attrition skills with an "all-in" for max. stamina builds. Also. Heavy armor have a strong synergy with the class kit skills.

    Edited: Deleted the unnecessary.

    that's right.

    stamDK are build to be tanks. we are comfortable in heavy armor. our passives are build for attrition. we are born and bred to wield a shield.

    and guess what? the last couple of months, attrition has been shot dead. dead like a *** door nail.


    thats why, yes, we can do "burst", but we will never be as good as similarly build other stamina classes. and also why our identity, our strength, have been bleached into non-existant, so much that other class can easily - EASILY - build a class just as tanky as stamDK.


    TLDR; stamDK isn't any better than all other class when it comes to burst OR attrition. bye bye identity.

    I agree and understand your disagreements. The class was meant to be tanks, however, this classic definition for tanks is inapplicable in player-versus-player content. Excluding non-class skills, the class has poor unique strengths that separates them from other heavy armor combatants: whether it's s/b, 2H or DW and using Bow for ranged engagements. Others have similar +resistances, burst healing, ranged defensive skills, damage shields..., and the class's affinity for poisons imposes limitations on the skill and gear setups; and doing so under Update 24 costs more than it's worth.

    That's sort of known without needing to be said.

    The developer's need to make tough choices on how their going approach class identity. We are comfortable in heavy armor, and IF this is the direction the class is moving towards (not exclusive to stamina) THEN our passives should include some offensive benefits while we're gearing up. For instance, replacing replaced World in Ruin passive something more beneficial, such as the old Wrath passive, except scaled similar to Alessian Order but +SD/WD scaling to 0.01% of their total resistances. Then, this type of change does multiple things, and would indirectly provide similar benefits under the current passive description; but also expand the passive's ability into stamina class and non-class abilities to provide a unique strength of the Dragon Knight.

    I feel this passive change wouldn't be too overpowering and would be significant enough to lend support to either medium or heavy armor class builds. IF, we're meant to be more optimal using a shield then this passive would at least help our s/b attacks deal better damage.

    The class has good attrition skills; even with the changes to wings when you calculate in damage mitigation. Where the challenge is for stamina users is the cost-to-use limitations due to the limited magic resource pool. So some cost mitigation on the skills is needed; such as, possibly replacing Eternal Mountain to a similar effect of the Summoner's Armor except the passive would reduce the next casting cost of Spiked Armor, Obsidian Shield, and Protective Scales by -15% while an Earth skill is active. These are the three main attrition skills for defense, and the passive change supports wearing heavy armor.

    All of these suggestions are centered around heavy armor because it's the most common denominator of the class. The passive change on Eternal Mountain doesn't caste type you into using heavy armor; it offers better resource management whether you're stamina or magic oriented. ...and resource management plays into attrition warfare.

    Would this be enough to improve the stamina oriented class identity?

    Regarding heavy armor synergy, stamDk used to have max stamina scaling on battle roar and helping hands, rewarding them for stacking max stamina and using heavy armor / SnB combo.

    Abilities like green dragon blood, talons,molten armaments etc also used to work well on stamDk but either got changed/nerfed or fell out of meta.

    corrosive having dot penetration, reverb bash having defile and pre-nerf heroic slash were also very clearly designed with stamDk tank builds in mind.

    This was Wrobel's intended design choice for stamDks in PvP. It was never really supposed to be an ''attrition class''. But rather It was a tank class that happened to do moderate damage.

    Its all down to TTK really. Before the dawn of tank meta stamDk was the only stam class that was actively encouraged to use heavy armor. It was the ''brawler class''. That is the identity of stamDk. You don't spam stonefist and scream ATTRITION at your screen. You play stamDK because you want to fight, you want to stand your ground, get in their face be the unstoppable force. Thats all there is to it.

    But lets focus more on playstyles based on time to kill(TTK), and how that affects your build and gameplay as a whole.

    There are two ways to kill a player in ESO.

    1. You burst them.

    2. You run them out of resources.

    First is obvious, you have the tools to burst so you burst people to death, which is faster and more efficient. This is how sorcs, nightblades,wardens play right now. They burst you down. For the less fortunate , you have the second option, run them out of resources. Use defiles, CC, debuffs, dots , everything you can to choke your opponent. This is how Dks and templars used to play. Right now Dks pretty much mimic other classes because high TTK is dead in the current meta with healing out of control and defile nowhere to be seen.

    So stamDk wasn't always an ''attrition'' class as they refer to it. wrecking blow into leap and 2h/bow medium armor was the root of how this class used to be played. Thats a burst build btw, not attrition, ONLY after they nerfed that combination and buffed heavy armor, stamDks pretty much went for the second, high TTK model because they no longer had good enough burst. The game gave them tools to play high TTK; innate tankyness, class dots, and SnB/2h giving them everything else they lack.(execute, spammable,CC, burst heal/major brutality/gapcloser... Really It was just a tank class that used weapon abilities.)

    Problem began after they destroyed many things stamDk compensated from weapon abilities, and when they gave stonefist in return of all the indirect nerfs, It was the ultimate b**** slap.

    So when they say ''we're gonna improve class identity for stamina dragonknights'', thats essentially building a new class out of nothing but two dots and half baked ideas like ''attrition'', but Its even harder than that because they have to make sure they don't hurt magDks too much in the process. Its not an easy job, It really requires passion and an unbreakable will cause even if they make a perfect job with stamDK, magDks will complain that they lost some of their abilities, no matter how good of a job they do, somebody will complain in the end.

    (And what do they get for doing a good job? They'll gain the trust of like what?.... the last 10 stamDk mains left or something like that. I can't really blame them for doing a lazy job and taking the least favourite ability from magDks.)

    Now here's the problem with all that though, when you think of stamDK, what do you think? Tanky guy right?

    What exactly gives me tankyness?

    hardened/volatile armor(enables healing received passive)
    Fragmented shield(major mending, a must have.)
    Cauterize(heal over time, again must have after momentum nerfs)
    Wings(%50 projectile mitigation for 6 sec, must have since Dk has no mobility.)

    See the theme yet? These are all magicka based abilities. All the utility abilities like fossilize, talons etc are also magicka based. Pretty much everything in Dk kit is magicka based. If you give Dks more magicka sustain in their kit, you're not giving stamDK more identity, you're basically giving them even more reasons to reroll magDk since both classes share same abilities.

    So thats why your idea will not really work out as you think, unless its tied specificly to stamina abilities. But even then Its sad that volatile armor doesn't have a physical damage counterpart, cauterize doesn't have weapon crit, FoO/standart deals fire damage not poison, never poison. Fragmented shield is basically old igneous shield without the fat shield.(They could have done something interesting with one of the morphs here, Its lost opportunity)...

    Overall they said they want classes to be viable at all roles so thats why they nerfed stamDk's ''attrition'' tools, I'm guessing. But if that is the case they're gonna give us some form of mobility and damage options. Unfortunately stonefist doesn't do any of that. Its essentially an ability I will not be using, or even if I use it won't do anything that weapon spammables don't, which is why I'm so mad over this.

    The identity for stamina Dk MUST come from new stamina morphs or passives SPECIFICLY designed for stamina players to use. Not for tank DKs, not for magicka DKs, specificly stamina Dks. I'd mainly appreciate the option to give up some of the built-in tankyness for mobility/burst tools.

    I don't see it happening though.

    source.gif

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett

    Great post!

    I'd like to mention that this patch it is even harder to wear your opponent down by pressuring DoTs.

    1. DoTs were nerfed way too much (they tried to compensate by making stamDK DoTs better than others)
    2. Defile (also CC) is harder to come by, and in order to get it, you will likely need to wear a set that provides it
    3. Heals are better
    4. For some reason, ZOS is giving purges to other classes. First they gave it to Necro (fine, nobody cared about Necros when they launched). But now they gave it to Warden as well (and none of the Wardens asked for this). Weak DoTs without Defile and 50% of the classes able to purge makes the mentioned option 2 a lot harder, nigh impossible.
    Edited by juhislihis19 on November 13, 2019 10:16AM
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Davadin wrote: »
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    can you give an example of a stamDK "burst" oriented skills?
    Also, another example of stamDK's skill/pasive that can help create a (class and non-class skills) burst combos?
    Your first two question are difficult to answer b/c it's heavily dependent on weapon skills and ultimate. You're either building for direct damage, or building to let sets work for you, or you're blending proc and direct damage. Stamina versions share the same estranged relationship as the stamina sorcerers, in which they're more reliant on non-class skills for any decent-to-high damage hits. But, we could also get into a circular discussion about what he/she should do for "burst," or gear setups, so I will gracefully decline to go down that rabbit hole.
    i agree and disagree.

    while i agree, similarly to stamsorc, we (stamDK) relies on on-class skills, i disagree we can be as effective as stamsorcs.

    why?
    lastly, what do you think is stamDK's unique strength compared to other classes?
    Let's cut to the chase here, the original stamina version was designed to be tanks. So, their unique strengths are centered around the numerous attrition skills available to them. Down side though, you're hard press to fully utilize those attrition skills with an "all-in" for max. stamina builds. Also. Heavy armor have a strong synergy with the class kit skills.

    Edited: Deleted the unnecessary.

    that's right.

    stamDK are build to be tanks. we are comfortable in heavy armor. our passives are build for attrition. we are born and bred to wield a shield.

    and guess what? the last couple of months, attrition has been shot dead. dead like a *** door nail.


    thats why, yes, we can do "burst", but we will never be as good as similarly build other stamina classes. and also why our identity, our strength, have been bleached into non-existant, so much that other class can easily - EASILY - build a class just as tanky as stamDK.


    TLDR; stamDK isn't any better than all other class when it comes to burst OR attrition. bye bye identity.

    I agree and understand your disagreements. The class was meant to be tanks, however, this classic definition for tanks is inapplicable in player-versus-player content. Excluding non-class skills, the class has poor unique strengths that separates them from other heavy armor combatants: whether it's s/b, 2H or DW and using Bow for ranged engagements. Others have similar +resistances, burst healing, ranged defensive skills, damage shields..., and the class's affinity for poisons imposes limitations on the skill and gear setups; and doing so under Update 24 costs more than it's worth.

    That's sort of known without needing to be said.

    The developer's need to make tough choices on how their going approach class identity. We are comfortable in heavy armor, and IF this is the direction the class is moving towards (not exclusive to stamina) THEN our passives should include some offensive benefits while we're gearing up. For instance, replacing replaced World in Ruin passive something more beneficial, such as the old Wrath passive, except scaled similar to Alessian Order but +SD/WD scaling to 0.01% of their total resistances. Then, this type of change does multiple things, and would indirectly provide similar benefits under the current passive description; but also expand the passive's ability into stamina class and non-class abilities to provide a unique strength of the Dragon Knight.

    I feel this passive change wouldn't be too overpowering and would be significant enough to lend support to either medium or heavy armor class builds. IF, we're meant to be more optimal using a shield then this passive would at least help our s/b attacks deal better damage.

    The class has good attrition skills; even with the changes to wings when you calculate in damage mitigation. Where the challenge is for stamina users is the cost-to-use limitations due to the limited magic resource pool. So some cost mitigation on the skills is needed; such as, possibly replacing Eternal Mountain to a similar effect of the Summoner's Armor except the passive would reduce the next casting cost of Spiked Armor, Obsidian Shield, and Protective Scales by -15% while an Earth skill is active. These are the three main attrition skills for defense, and the passive change supports wearing heavy armor.

    All of these suggestions are centered around heavy armor because it's the most common denominator of the class. The passive change on Eternal Mountain doesn't caste type you into using heavy armor; it offers better resource management whether you're stamina or magic oriented. ...and resource management plays into attrition warfare.

    Would this be enough to improve the stamina oriented class identity?

    Regarding heavy armor synergy, stamDk used to have max stamina scaling on battle roar and helping hands, rewarding them for stacking max stamina and using heavy armor / SnB combo.

    Abilities like green dragon blood, talons,molten armaments etc also used to work well on stamDk but either got changed/nerfed or fell out of meta.

    corrosive having dot penetration, reverb bash having defile and pre-nerf heroic slash were also very clearly designed with stamDk tank builds in mind.

    This was Wrobel's intended design choice for stamDks in PvP. It was never really supposed to be an ''attrition class''. But rather It was a tank class that happened to do moderate damage.

    Its all down to TTK really. Before the dawn of tank meta stamDk was the only stam class that was actively encouraged to use heavy armor. It was the ''brawler class''. That is the identity of stamDk. You don't spam stonefist and scream ATTRITION at your screen. You play stamDK because you want to fight, you want to stand your ground, get in their face be the unstoppable force. Thats all there is to it.

    But lets focus more on playstyles based on time to kill(TTK), and how that affects your build and gameplay as a whole.

    There are two ways to kill a player in ESO.

    1. You burst them.

    2. You run them out of resources.

    First is obvious, you have the tools to burst so you burst people to death, which is faster and more efficient. This is how sorcs, nightblades,wardens play right now. They burst you down. For the less fortunate , you have the second option, run them out of resources. Use defiles, CC, debuffs, dots , everything you can to choke your opponent. This is how Dks and templars used to play. Right now Dks pretty much mimic other classes because high TTK is dead in the current meta with healing out of control and defile nowhere to be seen.

    So stamDk wasn't always an ''attrition'' class as they refer to it. wrecking blow into leap and 2h/bow medium armor was the root of how this class used to be played. Thats a burst build btw, not attrition, ONLY after they nerfed that combination and buffed heavy armor, stamDks pretty much went for the second, high TTK model because they no longer had good enough burst. The game gave them tools to play high TTK; innate tankyness, class dots, and SnB/2h giving them everything else they lack.(execute, spammable,CC, burst heal/major brutality/gapcloser... Really It was just a tank class that used weapon abilities.)

    Problem began after they destroyed many things stamDk compensated from weapon abilities, and when they gave stonefist in return of all the indirect nerfs, It was the ultimate b**** slap.

    So when they say ''we're gonna improve class identity for stamina dragonknights'', thats essentially building a new class out of nothing but two dots and half baked ideas like ''attrition'', but Its even harder than that because they have to make sure they don't hurt magDks too much in the process. Its not an easy job, It really requires passion and an unbreakable will cause even if they make a perfect job with stamDK, magDks will complain that they lost some of their abilities, no matter how good of a job they do, somebody will complain in the end.

    (And what do they get for doing a good job? They'll gain the trust of like what?.... the last 10 stamDk mains left or something like that. I can't really blame them for doing a lazy job and taking the least favourite ability from magDks.)

    Now here's the problem with all that though, when you think of stamDK, what do you think? Tanky guy right?

    What exactly gives me tankyness?

    hardened/volatile armor(enables healing received passive)
    Fragmented shield(major mending, a must have.)
    Cauterize(heal over time, again must have after momentum nerfs)
    Wings(%50 projectile mitigation for 6 sec, must have since Dk has no mobility.)

    See the theme yet? These are all magicka based abilities. All the utility abilities like fossilize, talons etc are also magicka based. Pretty much everything in Dk kit is magicka based. If you give Dks more magicka sustain in their kit, you're not giving stamDK more identity, you're basically giving them even more reasons to reroll magDk since both classes share same abilities.

    So thats why your idea will not really work out as you think, unless its tied specificly to stamina abilities. But even then Its sad that volatile armor doesn't have a physical damage counterpart, cauterize doesn't have weapon crit, FoO/standart deals fire damage not poison, never poison. Fragmented shield is basically old igneous shield without the fat shield.(They could have done something interesting with one of the morphs here, Its lost opportunity)...

    Overall they said they want classes to be viable at all roles so thats why they nerfed stamDk's ''attrition'' tools, I'm guessing. But if that is the case they're gonna give us some form of mobility and damage options. Unfortunately stonefist doesn't do any of that. Its essentially an ability I will not be using, or even if I use it won't do anything that weapon spammables don't, which is why I'm so mad over this.

    The identity for stamina Dk MUST come from new stamina morphs or passives SPECIFICLY designed for stamina players to use. Not for tank DKs, not for magicka DKs, specificly stamina Dks. I'd mainly appreciate the option to give up some of the built-in tankyness for mobility/burst tools.

    I don't see it happening though.

    source.gif

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett

    Great post!

    I'd like to mention that this patch it is even harder to wear your opponent down by pressuring DoTs.

    1. DoTs were nerfed way too much (they tried to compensate by making stamDK DoTs better than others)
    2. Defile (also CC) is harder to come by, and in order to get it, you will likely need to wear a set that provides it
    3. Heals are better
    4. For some reason, ZOS is giving purges to other classes. First they gave it to Necro (fine, nobody cared about Necros when they launched). But now they gave it to Warden as well (and none of the Wardens asked for this). Weak DoTs without Defile and 50% of the classes able to purge makes the mentioned option 2 a lot harder, nigh impossible.

    Honestly, dots are dead, stamden getting purge was just beating the dead horse. I've finally made the switch to a stamden and I don't think I will look back, since the direction this class is headed towards is clear and I'm getting called all sorts of names for pointing out the obvious truth.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    ✭✭
    all stam DKs at this moment

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvX4k_3Cmvs
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • bakermir
    bakermir
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    quj261j7hx2t.png


    we got the best identity guys, we are now throwing R O C C that costs more than any other spamable or skill :trollface:


    why not change the class name from Dragonknight to Siegeknight. I see no difference between setting up a siege weapon in a 1v1 fight and using stonefists. Both are subnormal and not worth.

    Our identity is strong dots, strong wings. DK is nothing but a trashcan now compared to wardens, templars, necros and everything else tbh
    EU PC SOTHA SIL/BAHLOKDAAN
    • DC * imperial stamdk/emperor magdk * twitch-bakermir
    • DC * breton magsorc * twitch bakermir
    • DC * orcerer * Tyro Tyro Tyro Tyro
    • DC * altmer bomblade * Brings-you-democracy

    <REMOVE FACTION LOCK>
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    bakermir wrote: »

    quj261j7hx2t.png


    we got the best identity guys, we are now throwing R O C C that costs more than any other spamable or skill :trollface:


    why not change the class name from Dragonknight to Siegeknight. I see no difference between setting up a siege weapon in a 1v1 fight and using stonefists. Both are subnormal and not worth.

    Our identity is strong dots, strong wings. DK is nothing but a trashcan now compared to wardens, templars, necros and everything else tbh

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    R O C C
  • Davadin
    Davadin
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    Xvorg wrote: »

    i dont get it.

    we're nerfed.

    why do we want trial by combat?

    we'll get bloody slaughtered!



    Ahhh is it because we're like dwarves... thanks to the rock ***?
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
  • Davadin
    Davadin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    PS: I'm tired of PvP, so now I'm building my PvE build with Releq and Spriggan.... back to DoT and putting CP points into Thaumaturge....

    that what you want, right @ZOS_RobGarrett ?

    I mean, I do about 30~40% of damage in a classic tank-healer-2DPS setup when matched with another comparable DPS (non-DK)....

    maybe i should just be happy with that....


    PPS: I used to be able to carry 50-70% of the party's DPS on a good day with my Flame, Fury and DoT....
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭✭✭
    Davadin wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »

    i dont get it.

    we're nerfed.

    why do we want trial by combat?

    we'll get bloody slaughtered!



    Ahhh is it because we're like dwarves... thanks to the rock ***?

    Nah, we'll just let stamdens fight for ourselves.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭✭✭
    Davadin wrote: »
    PS: I'm tired of PvP, so now I'm building my PvE build with Releq and Spriggan.... back to DoT and putting CP points into Thaumaturge....

    that what you want, right @ZOS_RobGarrett ?

    I mean, I do about 30~40% of damage in a classic tank-healer-2DPS setup when matched with another comparable DPS (non-DK)....

    maybe i should just be happy with that....


    PPS: I used to be able to carry 50-70% of the party's DPS on a good day with my Flame, Fury and DoT....

    To give them credit, even though I absolutely hate stonefist, Its still 10 times better than double slotting molten whip and spamming noxious breath to try and keep it up. I still believe that seething fury was a good design choice but the way they implemented it(magicka spammable on stamina class that needs to be double barred) was the real issue. And by not making molten whip a stamina morph, they missed the golden opportunity to give stamDk a poison spammable of sorts. They could have easily buffed lava whip to compensate magDks if they needed.

    If that mechanic was tied to something like say, igneous weapons, where you can have it on one bar , on an ability that you can actually use and benefit from, that would have been received in a much more positive way. Why igneous weapons? I truly don't know. Maybe cause I feel like the ability is absolutely useless compared to its alternatives, yet it comes down to a choice between ''Do I want an optimal build or do I want to a useless roleplaying build''. No other class has this issue, at least not to this degree.

    So all things considered some of the design choices are very smart on paper,both stagger and seething fury, I can see what they're trying to achieve here, stamDk is a very simple and boring class, so they're trying to innovate things, make it more interesting, Its just that the way they end up implementing these mechanics is what makes them bad.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on November 14, 2019 11:29PM
  • Davadin
    Davadin
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    oh wow, what a dream to have Seething Fury AND stagger on my Molten Armaments.....
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
  • Davadin
    Davadin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Davadin wrote: »
    PS: I'm tired of PvP, so now I'm building my PvE build with Releq and Spriggan.... back to DoT and putting CP points into Thaumaturge....

    that what you want, right @ZOS_RobGarrett ?

    I mean, I do about 30~40% of damage in a classic tank-healer-2DPS setup when matched with another comparable DPS (non-DK)....

    maybe i should just be happy with that....


    PPS: I used to be able to carry 50-70% of the party's DPS on a good day with my Flame, Fury and DoT....

    To give them credit, even though I absolutely hate stonefist, Its still 10 times better than double slotting molten whip and spamming noxious breath to try and keep it up. I still believe that seething fury was a good design choice but the way they implemented it(magicka spammable on stamina class that needs to be double barred) was the real issue. And by not making molten whip a stamina morph, they missed the golden opportunity to give stamDk a poison spammable of sorts. They could have easily buffed lava whip to compensate magDks if they needed.

    If that mechanic was tied to something like say, igneous weapons, where you can have it on one bar , on an ability that you can actually use and benefit from, that would have been received in a much more positive way. Why igneous weapons? I truly don't know. Maybe cause I feel like the ability is absolutely useless compared to its alternatives, yet it comes down to a choice between ''Do I want an optimal build or do I want to a useless roleplaying build''. No other class has this issue, at least not to this degree.

    So all things considered some of the design choices are very smart on paper,both stagger and seething fury, I can see what they're trying to achieve here, stamDk is a very simple and boring class, so they're trying to innovate things, make it more interesting, Its just that the way they end up implementing these mechanics is what makes them bad.

    yes, i got Stonefist in my rotation. its good. but for most 4-man vet dungeon, my Master 2H Axe with Carve/Brawler is still a better contribution to the team.

    so i got my add-on to switch the skill and weapon (2H to DW) right before we hit a boss.
    August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
    Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
    Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
    March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber
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