Close please

mairwen85

Keep animation canceling and dont change it

This thread is still going? But now we're into the bash/block cancel phase of the conversation -- the bit where people claim it can beat GCD? Awesome. I'm going to walk away for a few hours. when I get back, we better be discussing how block cancel should stop your projectiles mid flight, and bar swaps should be on the same cool-down as light attacks or this discussion is invalidated /s

Runkorko

Remove animation canceling

mairwen85 wrote: »

This thread is still going? But now we're into the bash/block cancel phase of the conversation -- the bit where people claim it can beat GCD? Awesome. I'm going to walk away for a few hours. when I get back, we better be discussing how block cancel should stop your projectiles mid flight, and bar swaps should be on the same cool-down as light attacks or this discussion is invalidated /s

Better come back when we start discuss "bullet time"

mairwen85 wrote: »

Or I'll check in at the light attacks cause players to desynch stage.

Or this

mairwen85

Keep animation canceling and dont change it

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

This thread is still going? But now we're into the bash/block cancel phase of the conversation -- the bit where people claim it can beat GCD? Awesome. I'm going to walk away for a few hours. when I get back, we better be discussing how block cancel should stop your projectiles mid flight, and bar swaps should be on the same cool-down as light attacks or this discussion is invalidated /s

Better come back when we start discuss "bullet time"

Or I'll check in at the light attacks cause players to desynch stage.

Avrael

I dont know if you can a/c any instant skill in the game. But what i can say with 100% certainty is, that on my main mag sorc, using Liquid Lightning and then Wall Of Elements while letting their full animations play out, is considerably slower then casting Lightning, block cancel the animation so you DONT do the stupid hand gesture and the skill comes down and seems to do its damage MUCH faster, and then the same for Wall, preferably with a barswap, which also lets you get to other skills faster then doing a barswap AFTER the full animation of laying down Wall Of Elements. It may not seem like much, not even in the range of seconds, but again, in the scope of a long fight it can pool up to probably close to a minute. Even half a minute more skills=more damage is... you guessed it, more damage overall over the same period of time.

At least it feels this way. And honestly thats all i can say, i never did any tests about this myself, ive just seen some tests from streamers etc. and trusted it pretty blindly until now. But for all i know, it could just be the feeling that its faster, or even look faster, but dont actually do damage faster.

@Juhasow I dont play a templar, so i cant be very accurate, but i think Javelin you cant animation cancel, or at least not as well as the skills i mentioned. I play pretty much only my mag sorc and i can say that Liquid Lightning seems to have the biggest change in speed compared with the full animation versus canceling it at the beginning. But also, when i tried templar, the speed of Spear Shards hitting the ground didnt seem to change at all if i canceled it or not. So maybe theres a bigger diffrence for some skills.

Again, i dont know exactly how Javelin and other templar skills behave, but the point where Javelin actually goes off feels close to the end of the animation, in something like Force Pulse, its instant, but that means you can skip the rest of THAT animation to have quicker access to a light attack and other skills.

And im not trying to discredit you or anything, i know that it seems like im saying "Oh you just used the wrong skill, ofc thats not showing a diffrence!" Im really open for any argument and proof in favor of or against animation canceling. I only can say again, im neither opposed to, nor a fan of, a/c.

I dont think im sadistic enough to test this like you did, i dont even think im qualified enough to make a test of this kind because i suuuuucc, with or without a/c. But i have respect for your test, and maaaaaaybe you want to test it with a few other skills, if not for anyone else, maybe for yourself, you seem to be interested enough in this topic and already know how to set a test like this up. But i can already say, i would be happy to see more tests, doesnt matter from which person, and doesnt matter if they show a diffrence of speed/efficiancy or none at all.

Sorry for textwall btw...

ArchMikem

Avrael wrote: »

or a bug/glitch that became normal over 5 years, or even too useful to the game to remove?

This.

It was an unintended side effect of the combat system and game engine that ZOS either never realized how to fix, or sat on it so long that they became too scared to fix it cause doing so would cause the forum to throw the most furious tantrum we've ever seen.

max_only

Other

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Dottzgaming wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Game mechanic.

Block, barswap, and bash cancelling are all integral parts of combat fluidity so we aren't locked into skills for the full animation.

Light Attack Weaving is now explicitly taught in the Level Up Advisor tips and supported by a number of sets. ZOS buffed it in Summerset and now its a substantial portion of DPS.

Heavy Attack Weaving have been necessary since the Morrowind patch when ZOS nerfed all other sustain.

So whatever we think ZOS ought to do, animation cancelling is undoubtedly intended and encouraged.

This.

I can almost guarantee if animation cancelling were removed from the game, you'd see the largest exodus of hardcore and veteran players this game has ever seen.

Animation cancelling can be learned by anyone, you just have to practice it. Here's a guide if you want to learn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMhrzCvFOUg

Light Attack weaving is fine and makes sense from a combat perspective and I believe was intended all along. But blocking air simply to skip animations so you can use skills faster is just dumb to me. I can't imagine anyone leaving the game if they found a way to remove that kind of stupidity from the game.

You cannot use skills faster if You block the animation. Each ability in the game have ~0,9 second global cooldown and barely any animation of the instant cast ability have animation longer then that thus blocking the animation will just remove the visual part but You'll still have to wait remaining time until 0,9 second global cooldown expires.

Whether you actually can or not I can't really speak to - as I don't involve myself in the practice. If you go check out any website that explains how to "animation cancel" in the directions they frequently suggest you follow your skills and attacks with a block to cancel the animations. So they at least believe it speeds up their rotations.

And does any of those websites contains recent guides made in around last 2 years ?

I don't know when it was made.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2KLfR8C3YNdF5cAJXtXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEydGgwaWc2BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM1BHZ0aWQDQjg1ODlfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1568951683/RO=10/RU=https://dottzgaming.com/eso-guides/general/animation-cancelling-guide//RK=2/RS=0cMClLPlWrXBy.FjnXj4WVoC0Xg-

If you want an example: here is one.

Block is listed at no.3 as an example of "animation canceling".

He's never saying that block cancelling alows for faster usage of next ability. He just says You can cancel ability animation with it.

It seems to me you are arguing minutia for the sake of it.

My point was blocking air is being used as a glitch to speed up damage. However exactly that is accomplished is beside the point. The point is blocking air is seen as a form of "animation canceling" and that is what I am referring to.

But what adventage You get because of that ? You wont be able to use next ability until global cooldown ends and instant cast abilities fires instantly so it doesnt matter wheter You cancel it or not. The only adventage is fact You can go to the block instantly after using certain ability but You wont speed up that ability or few abilities in rapid succesion this way. So no block cancelling wont speed up the damage. Bash cancelling will since You apply bash during the same interval of abilities global cooldown but wheter You're bash or block cancelling abilities themselves wont bypass global cooldowns.

Well the other poster said it does a little bit and that adds up over the course of a long fight. Whether it does or not I don't know like I said - because I don't do it. But the other poster makes a compelling argument because I doubt people would trouble doing it or guides would be written about how to do it if it actually didn't do anything.

In any case: whether it actually does anything or not: that is what I was referring to my post. And I can't imagine why anyone would leave the game if they found a way to remove such a silly concept as blocking air to speedup damage from the game.

There is also many people claming earth is flat. Does that make earth flat ? Seriously why people dont have their own brains and cant test something for themselves. This is actually a reason why so many misconceptions is spread out. Because people follow like a sheep one theory without veryfying it simply because somebody they respect or think he is right said that.

Here are some actual numbers :

Parse with pure 1 button mashing. Intervals are : 1,022 ; 0,925 ; 1,086 ; 0,988 ; 0,990 ; 1,022 ; 1,017. Average is 1,007 sec


Parse with la+skill weave. Intervals are : 1,064 ; 0,992 ; 1,077 ; 0,987 ; 1,084 ; 1,039 ; 1,016. Average is 1,037 sec


Parse with la+skill+block cancel. Intervals are : 0,959 ; 1,046 ; 1,012 ; 1,046 ; 0,933 ; 1,054 ; 1,009. Average is 1,008 sec



So basically the difference between spamming 1 ability without weaving , weaving it with light attack and weaving it with light attack and block is non existant. 0,03 sec is more then enough to put it into margin of mistake. That is because global cooldown for the ability keeps everything in check and wont allow for something to get faster. And no it does not keep gettin better with time. It's constant with time if You dont belive me You can check for Yourself.

Next time make sure You have valid knowledge before commenting on things please. Spreading misinformation is why we have so many whiners making some conspiracy theories about animation cancelling these days.

So are you saying I don’t have to Animation Cancel to be good at dps? That’s a relief

Tommy_The_Gun

It is an... "accidental" ? (I think it it the best way to put it) game mechanics that most likely was not planned, but ZOS figured out that they either can not take it away as it was making the combat more fluid and fast paced.

Why do I think that way ? Well lets say that animation cancelling (aka waving) crates situations that are hard to predict and balance out by the developers. In Dark Souls for example, animation cancelling is considered an banable exploit (especially in PvP mode).
I think the closest example I can think of is Warframe in which, during beta testing players discovered a glitch that allowed them to move super fast. But the feedback they provided to the devs was "not to remove it and keep it, because moving fast is fun" - so Warframe devs did that and added the fast-move "exploit" as a regular move you can do in game with fixed animation.

So I do believe that the same goes for animation cancelling in eso. It might have been an exploit in beta / early in the game, that was converted to a feature.

StormeReigns

Remove animation canceling

Only one out of three suphah ceral L337s can animation cancel properly.
Can you spot the pro eso player's character successfully preforming the animation cancel?


Edit:
Jokes aside.... yes that is what it truly looks like with success on AC'ing. If they can smooth it out / make it look more fluid I'll glady change my opinion on it. Till then, all AC just looks like terrible 70s Eurovision groups.

idk

Keep animation canceling and dont change it

Gilvoth wrote: »

animation canceling was never intended, and needs to be removed from combat.

Thx for your opinion. Unfortunately it ignores why we have AC and why we will always have AC. It is because we must be able to block, dodge roll, and interrupt very reactively in this game as combat is much faster pace and requires much more agility than overly simplified games like WoW and FF.

So if someone has an issue with AC I suggest they either get used to it or find a different game. Clearly AC is not going anywhere so the issue on how you deal with it is in your court.

idk

Keep animation canceling and dont change it

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Actually Zos has tweaked it. They said that would happen the day they blessed AC as legitimate and saying it would remain in the game.

max_only

Other

SkerKro wrote: »

Only one out of three suphah ceral L337s can animation cancel properly.
Can you spot the pro eso player's character successfully preforming the animation cancel?

This gif reminds me: when are going to start complaining about CC immunity again, or was that fixed and I missed it?

ZOS_RogerJ

Remember, it’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.

Runkorko

Remove animation canceling

idk wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Do people realize that light attacks proc sets, enchants, and have their own CP tree as well right? How tf can it be an exploit if so many things crutch on doing light attacks? While it might have been an unintentional feature YEARS AGO it's quite clear that it's widely accepted and implemented today. Maybe I'm missing the point of this argument??

if you call 40%<60% widely then i agree
main reason pve players dont go cyro. because most of them dont use macros and scripts.
main reason why some ppl are TOO GOOD IS HARD TO BELIVE / same macros and scripts
main reason why this ppl defend it in forums.
another reason ppl defending it its because they make no diferenece between weaving and animation cansel.

I am a PvE player first and foremost but enjoy PvP. I do not use macros, never have, and I certainly do not use scripts yet I do not seem to have a problem. I think you are just makign excuses.

Exuses on what ? On my pvp performance?
https://imgur.com/a/q4puuRT
As u can see i have no reason to make excuses. Even if play solo with randoms.
The fact i dont like a/c doesnt mean i dont use it.
Stil will be nice if i see it removed.
Will bring lots of macro/script users down to their place.
Peace

Hazurko_RaShan

ZOS_RogerJ wrote: »

Remember, it’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.

except in my thread. then you just shut them down

idk

Keep animation canceling and dont change it

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Do people realize that light attacks proc sets, enchants, and have their own CP tree as well right? How tf can it be an exploit if so many things crutch on doing light attacks? While it might have been an unintentional feature YEARS AGO it's quite clear that it's widely accepted and implemented today. Maybe I'm missing the point of this argument??

if you call 40%<60% widely then i agree
main reason pve players dont go cyro. because most of them dont use macros and scripts.
main reason why some ppl are TOO GOOD IS HARD TO BELIVE / same macros and scripts
main reason why this ppl defend it in forums.
another reason ppl defending it its because they make no diferenece between weaving and animation cansel.

I am a PvE player first and foremost but enjoy PvP. I do not use macros, never have, and I certainly do not use scripts yet I do not seem to have a problem. I think you are just makign excuses.

Exuses on what ? On my pvp performance?
https://imgur.com/a/q4puuRT
As u can see i have no reason to make excuses. Even if play solo with randoms.
The fact i dont like a/c doesnt mean i dont use it.
Stil will be nice if i see it removed.
Will bring lots of macro/script users down to their place.
Peace

Just going off what you said because they all seem to be lines someone would use to make excuses for them struggling in PvP.

darkblue5

Keep animation canceling but change/update some things about it

Just undo cast time ultimates please. Please figure out some other way to balance them. There are some cool fakes you can spend a global cooldown on but esp. in lag they can desync, they can fail to fire, and the cast time stretches out making them even more awkward.

MaleAmazon

" in the directions they frequently suggest you follow your skills and attacks with a block to cancel the animations

Block cancel does not speed up attack interval. It does cause you to, well, block, which is useful vs enemy attacks. Bash cancel, which can be done quickly by assigning 'interrupt' to one press (I have it on RMB and block reassigned to RMB+LMB on my non-tanks) does allow you to squeeze in extra melee damage from the bash. I am unsure on the cooldown from ultimates, I've seen posts suggesting it can be squeezed in or ani canceled but ZOS changes things and when I use my ulti I just spam the button until it fires

But it does not allow you to bypass the GCD!

Now there are occasions (I think) where not weaving causes the game to play an animation that you cannot interrupt with a skill cast (I think some heavy attacks do this when you don't queue up a skill). I am not 100% sure though since I dont think about it and I weave all the time. However in those cases it causes you to wait longer than normal on a skill cast.

Dusk_Coven

Remove animation canceling

ArchMikem wrote: »

This.

It was an unintended side effect of the combat system and game engine that ZOS either never realized how to fix, or sat on it so long that they became too scared to fix it cause doing so would cause the forum to throw the most furious tantrum we've ever seen.

Let's see if the mount speed changes freak people out enough to make them leave first. Maybe that's the canary in the coal mine.

Aznarb

Other

Most lame game mech' I ever seen.
Still fun to read how ppl who think they're skilled to smash a button between skill.
Took me few minute to do it when I've learn about it.

Combat design in this game is bad and clunky. And probably the less skill requirement from all dynamic combat MMORPG I've played.
And, even if it's accepted now, it still a not-attended feature, in other word : another bug who was never fix.

starkerealm

Keep animation canceling and dont change it

ArchMikem wrote: »

Avrael wrote: »

or a bug/glitch that became normal over 5 years, or even too useful to the game to remove?

This.

It was an unintended side effect of the combat system and game engine that ZOS either never realized how to fix, or sat on it so long that they became too scared to fix it cause doing so would cause the forum to throw the most furious tantrum we've ever seen.

Neither. It was an unintended side effect. When it came up, and people started abusing it, ZOS came to the community and asked if it should be removed.

Now, I'll grant you, the post wasn't entirely clear, so some may not have realized the full implications of animation canceling when it was first brought up. (I didn't.) But, it did become a defining trait for how combat works in ESO, and the only reason it stayed in the game was because the community asked for it.

Literally, this was by community request.

There already is a GCD system, and they could have simply put blocking, light and heavy attacks on the same GCD as active abilities and called it a day. The community didn't want that.

They didn't wait, because this happened very shortly after launch.

So, the answer is: It started out as a bug, but the community begged them to leave it in, and it became a feature. That was over five years ago. They didn't wait to ask, this came up almost as soon as the practice started catching on.

starkerealm

Keep animation canceling and dont change it

Avrael wrote: »

I dont know if you can a/c any instant skill in the game. But what i can say with 100% certainty is, that on my main mag sorc, using Liquid Lightning and then Wall Of Elements while letting their full animations play out, is considerably slower then casting Lightning, block cancel the animation so you DONT do the stupid hand gesture and the skill comes down and seems to do its damage MUCH faster, and then the same for Wall, preferably with a barswap, which also lets you get to other skills faster then doing a barswap AFTER the full animation of laying down Wall Of Elements. It may not seem like much, not even in the range of seconds, but again, in the scope of a long fight it can pool up to probably close to a minute. Even half a minute more skills=more damage is... you guessed it, more damage overall over the same period of time.

At least it feels this way. And honestly thats all i can say, i never did any tests about this myself, ive just seen some tests from streamers etc. and trusted it pretty blindly until now. But for all i know, it could just be the feeling that its faster, or even look faster, but dont actually do damage faster.

It's faster (from a damage perspective) to cast wall of zap, then break the animation with a light attack, before casting pool of zap, then light attack out of that, and move on to your next active ability. The practice of ACing with light attacks is called weaving.

There's very few situations where you'd want to block (or dodge) cancel an ability. A big one is if you accidentally start an ability with a cast time, but didn't intend to use it. For example: Hard casting frags. You can't bar swap out of that as the cast timer will block it, but you can cancel the cast with a block. Also with some channeled abilities and mistform, you can block to cancel out of the ability.

Thing is, if you're not weaving, you're not going to see an appreciable damage difference in most cases. The exception here is the Warden, they have some long ass animations. The reason is that all of your active abilities share a 1s global cooldown. This means you can't cast wall of zap more than once a second, no matter how much you want, nor can you cast both wall of zap and pool of zap in the same second. They'll always be one second apart. (Technically, it's 1.1s, but that doesn't matter.) Light and heavy attacks also follow a GCD, but it's seperate from the active abilities GCD. So you can use an ability AND light attack in the same second. This is where animation canceling becomes very important, because you will be canceling the animations of your abilities in order to light attack, and at that point you are double dipping for damage.

Dusk_Coven

Remove animation canceling

starkerealm wrote: »

When it came up, and people started abusing it, ZOS came to the community and asked if it should be removed.

Link your proof please.

starkerealm

Keep animation canceling and dont change it

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

When it came up, and people started abusing it, ZOS came to the community and asked if it should be removed.

Link your proof please.

You can find it with the search function.

coradaelu

Keep animation canceling and dont change it

It will not removed, get used.

Rungar

Remove animation canceling

as ive have said before and given the divisivness of this topic surely we could at least get a pvp server campaign from one of the unused low population ones that has light, heavy, bash and barswap on the global timer.

it doesnt take anything away from anyone. Yet there is still resistance to even that? why?

Runkorko

Remove animation canceling

Rungar wrote: »

as ive have said before and given the divisivness of this topic surely we could at least get a pvp server campaign from one of the unused low population ones that has light, heavy, bash and barswap on the global timer.

it doesnt take anything away from anyone. Yet there is still resistance to even that? why?

because they are one tick pony. so scared that zos can take a/c away from them. then they will need to actualy play to win. not just press 2 putons with macro bids ...

Minyassa

Other

It's a game mechanic, but it's a pain in the tuchus. Hate it.

Cryptical

Remove animation canceling

I just remembered.

Animation cancelling allowed people to halt others from countering.

If you hit with wrecking blow, the old wrecking blow when it did the knock back stun, you could cancel out of the animation and use the other person’s time stunned in the air to build another wrecking blow, which would hit before they landed, tossing them back up into the air, build up another wrecking blow, repeat until dead. If you had the timing right, your enemy never actually made it back to the ground.

Certain enemies still use the old wrecking blow.

Animation cancelling is an exploit of a bug in the combat system, even though the devs really could not come out and say it because then the illiterate (_o_) would be like “loosers caint fixx there own game derp derp”

C’mon. Everyone knows that if the devs acknowledged cancelling as a bug then the a-holes of the forums would be writing a thread each day about the bug that was too big to kill. Just look at all the cataclysmic “oh noes unplayable” and “nerfed into oblivion” threads. You know exactly what sort of howling would be going on.

vestahls

Remove animation canceling

It's clearly a game mechanic, but it's a crappy one. Yes it makes combat more dynamic, but in PVP in particular it just makes it a case of who has better ping.

Removing it would be an improvement overall to the game. People can enjoy a game like WOW - where using an ability takes like 5 minutes, but at least it leads to better server responsiveness (because tbh doing all the flashy moves and calculations, together with rendering the fairly high graphics of ESO, are probably big contributors to the servers being crap and people constantly complaining about low FPS). So I don't see why ESO would become less appealing to players if it did the same thing.
Inb4 "why not have different games catering to different tastes?", agreed but combat in WOW is workable, in ESO it is less so. My argument is that a lengthier combat has more advantages than a 10-actions-per-second one.

Yeah combat would seem a bit more boring, and DSP would drop for everybody, but at least you could actually play the game in most situations, and more people could actually engage in PVP without wanting to pull their hair out because they died to lag.

Ysbriel

Remove animation canceling

When a player uses something in a game that wasn’t intended or in a way other than intended, it is in fact an exploit. Animation canceling was not intended therefore it is an exploit. Sadly people need that to achieve the DPS on which newer content has been created upon. And those PvPers who cancel their way into victory will defend it to the bitter end. Yet it keeps being one of the most common complaint when it comes to gameplay in this game besides performance issues.