ZOS, the playerbase has made it clear that flat dps nerfs aren't acceptable, so stop it

Mathius_Mordred

Keylun wrote: »

If you watched the stream, it seems the combat changes were from the Lead combat PvP designers who don’t consider the PvE side

I spotted that too!

MojaveHeld

Keylun wrote: »

If you watched the stream, it seems the combat changes were from the Lead combat PvP designers who don’t consider the PvE side

And there's nobody at ZOS who caught this? I'm both a PvPer and PvEr, and I could have told them at a quick glance that this was a no-go for how it would damage PvE. They don't have anyone on their staff with even a basic understanding of their own game to tell their PvP designer "Absolutely no" in this case?

maddiniiLuna

Not sure if this belongs here, but a little question to necromancer. What do these changes mean?

First the Information from the developer:

Due to many of the current targeting issues with corpses and tether abilities, we are allowing Shocking Siphon and its morphs, as well as Restoring Tether and its morphs, to bypass the global cooldown. We are currently working on alternative methods to improve the targeting for these abilities, as well as improving the reliability of created corpses and their durations, but are not ready to implement them quite yet. We’re aware of the frustrating nature of attempting to use these abilities, which is why we have added a small stop-gap measure in the meantime until we can properly solve the issue.

Basically saying "Shocking Siphon is bugged and we won't fix it yet". Then it goes:

Shocking Siphon: Decreased the damage per tick of this ability and its morphs by approximately 33%.

So a broken ability that has never worked correctly and will not work correctly after the patch will now also have a damage reduction (same for Skeletal Mage by the way). Which leaves the necromancer with exactly one ability that is partially functioning (terrorist bomber). How exactly are they supposed to actually kill stuff?

That class has no execute. No dmg buff. No burst damage. No damage over time (because bugged) and complete garbage healing, but you still expect people to pay for it? lol...

Stebarnz

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

Not sure if this belongs here, but a little question to necromancer. What do these changes mean?

First the Information from the developer:

Due to many of the current targeting issues with corpses and tether abilities, we are allowing Shocking Siphon and its morphs, as well as Restoring Tether and its morphs, to bypass the global cooldown. We are currently working on alternative methods to improve the targeting for these abilities, as well as improving the reliability of created corpses and their durations, but are not ready to implement them quite yet. We’re aware of the frustrating nature of attempting to use these abilities, which is why we have added a small stop-gap measure in the meantime until we can properly solve the issue.

Basically saying "Shocking Siphon is bugged and we won't fix it yet". Then it goes:

Shocking Siphon: Decreased the damage per tick of this ability and its morphs by approximately 33%.

So a broken ability that has never worked correctly and will not work correctly after the patch will now also have a damage reduction (same for Skeletal Mage by the way). Which leaves the necromancer with exactly one ability that is partially functioning (terrorist bomber). How exactly are they supposed to actually kill stuff?

That class has no execute. No dmg buff. No burst damage. No damage over time (because bugged) and complete garbage healing, but you still expect people to pay for it? lol...

currently number 1 dps stam and mag, soon not to be however.

kargen27

Nobody but ZoS knows what the player base thinks and even they may not know completely.

The forums are not a representation of the player base.

vgabor

As many people multiple times said, the main problem is not the power creep or increasing dps numbers, but the ever widening gap between floor and ceiling. While the top groups simply breeze through the content, your average player has much more difficulty clearing vet content. Just go to a vet crag trial pug and see what's the pug dps there, it's not something which really need to be nerfed...

Flat dps nerfs not gonna do anything good, if ZOS want to solve the "dps in the sky" issue, they need to make nerf in a way which cuts top dps much more than average players dps, to bring the ceiling closer to the floor. Which would require a bit more thoughtful approach, like actually looking at the trial logs and analyse what the major sources of the differences in the dps between top and average groups, and find measurements which would affect the type of damages more prevalent in top groups.

One very radical idea as an example, taking that light attack weaving contribute to much bigger part of the damage in top groups than in average player groups is to either put the light attack under the GCD which would effectively remove light attack weaving or drastically cut down the light attack damage to be like 10-15% of the normal one if there was a skill cast in the previous 1-2 seconds. Steps like this would reduce the gap between floor and ceiling but since they would cause a very loud protest from influencer top players, they never going to happen...

x48rph

FierceSam wrote: »

given its PTS v1, why not give constructive feedback, which might have some effect.

Going rage quit at this point seems somewhat counterproductive.

Because every one knows that while they will surely tweak a few things, along with throwing in some crazy change to an ability or something on the very last patch, almost all of this will remain the same. They aren't going to go back on all their work and reduce the nerfs on everything, it doesn't work like that. PTS isn't full blown testing, it's just a staging area to work out the bugs and tweak. No major changes to this will happen until the following pts cycle in which they will once again decide they need to do yet another major revamp and throw everything into chaos again.

KingZeldaMaster

I'm honestly fine with the proposed damage reductions to Entropy and Soul Trap, as they will still do more damage post-Update 24 than pre-Update 23, but the changes to ground AoEs are simply ridiculous. My main is a magicka necromancer, and with Wall of Elements and Boneyard each receiving approximately a 40% increase in cost in addition to a further 33% reduction in damage per tick, I will be doing even less damage than before while consuming far more of my available magicka pool from JUST TWO SKILLS. That is beyond insane.

pod88kk

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Vet trials groups are furious right now. Making us adjust our rotation and adapt to a new, but equally as good one, is one thing. But just flat out nerfing the amount of dps? Completely unacceptable. That idea was always a non-starter. So who on earth thought it was okay to clearly aim for doing exactly that with the latest design changes? This wasn't a direction the playerbase was willing to go, so whoever at ZOS thought this was a good idea probably shouldn't have a job anymore. Absolutely despicable. The only way to fix it is to admit you were wrong and immediately scrap these plans. Hopefully ZOS will come to its senses and do just that, but most of us aren't real hopeful.

Couldn't agree more!!!!! This isn't lowering the ceiling and raising the floor, it's more of a ceiling stays the same but the floor is in the basement now.
Zos continuously seems unable to comprehend that the OP end game teams will still be able to complete the end game content with scores and titles we can barely dream of. Meanwhile every prog team has been hit with another month or more of regression rather than progression.
Zos' please listen to the mid tier players as we're probably the ones keeping this game alive at the moment.

MajBludd

Sounds great. Good changes, the best yet!

BahometZ

vgabor wrote: »

As many people multiple times said, the main problem is not the power creep or increasing dps numbers, but the ever widening gap between floor and ceiling. While the top groups simply breeze through the content, your average player has much more difficulty clearing vet content. Just go to a vet crag trial pug and see what's the pug dps there, it's not something which really need to be nerfed...

Flat dps nerfs not gonna do anything good, if ZOS want to solve the "dps in the sky" issue, they need to make nerf in a way which cuts top dps much more than average players dps, to bring the ceiling closer to the floor. Which would require a bit more thoughtful approach, like actually looking at the trial logs and analyse what the major sources of the differences in the dps between top and average groups, and find measurements which would affect the type of damages more prevalent in top groups.

One very radical idea as an example, taking that light attack weaving contribute to much bigger part of the damage in top groups than in average player groups is to either put the light attack under the GCD which would effectively remove light attack weaving or drastically cut down the light attack damage to be like 10-15% of the normal one if there was a skill cast in the previous 1-2 seconds. Steps like this would reduce the gap between floor and ceiling but since they would cause a very loud protest from influencer top players, they never going to happen...

I mused on this last patch, the one simple change that would reduce the gap between top and bottom dps would be to reduce the efficacy of light attack weaving. But yeah, the vocal minority of top players would *** a brick. And to be honest, most people would hate it. It really only helps the worst players, who can't light weave.

On that note, these patch notes are diabolical. I'm in several progression trials on console that will probably give up on certain content because it's just not worth the pain. I'd love to know what metrics ZOS are using, because if their baseline is that some groups on PC are breezing through vet dlc trials, just please please don't compare us to that. PC add-ons alone make the comparison impossible.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Vet trials groups are furious right now. Making us adjust our rotation and adapt to a new, but equally as good one, is one thing. But just flat out nerfing the amount of dps? Completely unacceptable. That idea was always a non-starter. So who on earth thought it was okay to clearly aim for doing exactly that with the latest design changes? This wasn't a direction the playerbase was willing to go, so whoever at ZOS thought this was a good idea probably shouldn't have a job anymore. Absolutely despicable. The only way to fix it is to admit you were wrong and immediately scrap these plans. Hopefully ZOS will come to its senses and do just that, but most of us aren't real hopeful.

Yet the same "vet trial groups community" aka the 1% elitists, leader board chasers, complain all the time that content is too easy....

Which the result were in just 2 years we went from 40K DPS as "congrats great performance" to 90K DPS been the norm.

HalvarIronfist

wavingblue wrote: »

Meh, the playerbase made it clear to ZOS multi-bidding wasn't ready for primetime nor really wanted at many levels by many people on many different threads.. they did it anyways.

This is completely accurate. I'm not exactly sure what this process of back and forth nerfs is set to accomplish. A skill may be buffed one patch, and then the next it's nerfed back into irrelevancy. ZOS, (especially with the example of Multi-midding) has shown to have no regard for the feedback they requested over changes they planned to implement. So it's pretty easy to assume at this point they either aren't reading, or they simply don't care about said feedback. (IMO)

I never saw anyone seriously in favor of multi bidding. Not large trade guild GMS, not medium or small trade guild GMs, nor players who had any interest in trader or otherwise. Every thread I ever read about it was mostly in depth explaining why multi-bidding wasn't a good idea, why the playerbase didn't want it, and so forth.

It's getting to the point I see PVP and PVE players alike also responding similarly to these types of patches. Will players adapt, will some quit? Will they be pushed through regardless of our opinions? Yeah. Those things will likely all happen. But the real underlying question: Why?

Sirona_Starr

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

wavingblue wrote: »

Meh, the playerbase made it clear to ZOS multi-bidding wasn't ready for primetime nor really wanted at many levels by many people on many different threads.. they did it anyways.

This is completely accurate. I'm not exactly sure what this process of back and forth nerfs is set to accomplish. A skill may be buffed one patch, and then the next it's nerfed back into irrelevancy. ZOS, (especially with the example of Multi-midding) has shown to have no regard for the feedback they requested over changes they planned to implement. So it's pretty easy to assume at this point they either aren't reading, or they simply don't care about said feedback. (IMO)

I never saw anyone seriously in favor of multi bidding. Not large trade guild GMS, not medium or small trade guild GMs, nor players who had any interest in trader or otherwise. Every thread I ever read about it was mostly in depth explaining why multi-bidding wasn't a good idea, why the playerbase didn't want it, and so forth.

It's getting to the point I see PVP and PVE players alike also responding similarly to these types of patches. Will players adapt, will some quit? Will they be pushed through regardless of our opinions? Yeah. Those things will likely all happen. But the real underlying question: Why?

Well, since the last nerfing patch, I have reskilled and rekitted 1/2 of my characters........ which, I will have to do again, or undo, idk. The good news is I haven't touched 1/2 of them. The bad news is that I tried to ADAPT. When the nerfs/changes happen faster than you can adapt, if you choose to, rather than quit, Houston has a MAJOR problem.... Sick to death of these massive changes.......... well, I guess the nerf everything crowd is happy. Getting my fists ready in advance of the patch after this patch

Hazurko_RaShan

Nerf dps. Thank you. I'm all for nerfing dps. Then maybe healer will be relevant again and get some props. For the dps to not slot vigor as often so they have to use another dps skill in their rotation and actually rely on healers again. I;m all for that. Thank you Zos.

WrathOfInnos

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

Nerf dps. Thank you. I'm all for nerfing dps. Then maybe healer will be relevant again and get some props. For the dps to not slot vigor as often so they have to use another dps skill in their rotation and actually rely on healers again. I;m all for that. Thank you Zos.

Lol, I wouldn’t count on that. If DPS ends up 2/3 of what it used to be then where do you think the 3rd DPS is going to fit in a group of 4? I very much doubt the players are going to simply accept that everything takes much longer than before, and thankful that someone is healing their slow crawl through dungeons and trials.

MartiniDaniels

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

Nerf dps. Thank you. I'm all for nerfing dps. Then maybe healer will be relevant again and get some props. For the dps to not slot vigor as often so they have to use another dps skill in their rotation and actually rely on healers again. I;m all for that. Thank you Zos.

You are wrong..

With so many dots nerfed to uselessness, it is actually MORE bar space for self-heal/utility

3 dd runs which now are just a convenience for faster run will become a must have to meet many dps checks. Or 2dd + dd/healer... pure healer will be inefficient, because it will be easier to do your own damage then buff somebody else damage.

Eirinin

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

Nerf dps. Thank you. I'm all for nerfing dps. Then maybe healer will be relevant again and get some props. For the dps to not slot vigor as often so they have to use another dps skill in their rotation and actually rely on healers again. I;m all for that. Thank you Zos.

No. We just won't run with healers, everyone will slap a self heal or two on their bars, and it'll be three dps and a tank.

maddiniiLuna

vgabor wrote: »

As many people multiple times said, the main problem is not the power creep or increasing dps numbers, but the ever widening gap between floor and ceiling. While the top groups simply breeze through the content, your average player has much more difficulty clearing vet content. Just go to a vet crag trial pug and see what's the pug dps there, it's not something which really need to be nerfed...

Flat dps nerfs not gonna do anything good, if ZOS want to solve the "dps in the sky" issue, they need to make nerf in a way which cuts top dps much more than average players dps, to bring the ceiling closer to the floor. Which would require a bit more thoughtful approach, like actually looking at the trial logs and analyse what the major sources of the differences in the dps between top and average groups, and find measurements which would affect the type of damages more prevalent in top groups.

One very radical idea as an example, taking that light attack weaving contribute to much bigger part of the damage in top groups than in average player groups is to either put the light attack under the GCD which would effectively remove light attack weaving or drastically cut down the light attack damage to be like 10-15% of the normal one if there was a skill cast in the previous 1-2 seconds. Steps like this would reduce the gap between floor and ceiling but since they would cause a very loud protest from influencer top players, they never going to happen...

I'm not happy with all the changes, like everybody else but this? I mean the main difference between a random group and a guild run group is usually communication. You have 90k dps dudes in random groups all the time from being bored, they throw a perfect rotation on every boss and you have those that die at every single lightning in vAA - But you have those in randoms and guild groups.

I do agree, that there is a wide gap between those 2, but the actual difference is that random dudes tend to not even read up on the mechanics, they just blindfolded run in and be carried from the bored 90k dps dudes. With new changes the random dudes will have to learn the eso basics - block and dodge as well as rotation and mechanics - in my opinion this is great news!

jcm2606

kargen27 wrote: »

Nobody but ZoS knows what the player base thinks and even they may not know completely.

The forums are not a representation of the player base.

I can guarantee the rest of the player base is not going to be privy to these changes, and the reaction is pretty much going to be "hang on, why do I deal so much less damage now? Why are my skills so much more expensive now? Why is my pet that I've been building around for 5 years now hitting like a wet noodle? Wait, it scales with stamina now?!"

Mr_Walker

norrisnick wrote: »

Did you see the 14min vMOL that was posted recently? When you see 141k parses on a trial boss you have eclipsed the reasonable window...

Did you see the Monaco GP this year? If those dudes can blast through the streets of Monaco at 300km/h inches away from walls, I can too!

peacenote

Dreyloch wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Why couldn't they have reduced damage by 25% without the cost increase and see how it went, no they have to slash and hack by 50 to 60% and make abilities cost more on top of that.

I agree with this, this right here^^^^, I don't think anyone has a clue at ZoS. The only thing I can even begin to imagine is they're trying to drastically scale back sustain across the board. Less damage, Higher costs, means having to use more skills over time to achieve the same current effect, which means needing more sustain?!? My other thought is absolutely NEEDING the new sets to retain some of the damage we have now?? /shakes head...maybe some number cruncher will youtube some answers, cause I for one am totally lost =/

I'm no expert, but I do feel like I saw quite a few things in these patch notes that had been tweaked the exact opposite way last patch, such as...

"Healing over Time abilities (both single target and Area of Effect) no longer adhere to the Damage over Time standards due to their limited application and accessibility." -- standards applied as a concept last patch (So.. some of the healing feedback might have been correct?)

"Summon Winged Twilight: Increased the heal of this ability and the Twilight Matriarch morph to be closer to the heal power of Rushed Ceremony." -- wasn't this nerfed last patch? (I mean, yay imo, but still...)

I think I've figured it out. What we're seeing is ZoS's attempt at DevOps.... **looks around** Aw, c'mon... where would we be without some IT jokes between friends? :P

In all seriousness, unless they were to double our inventory so I can save WAYYYY more sets "just in case," these changes are just too drastic and frequent. I'd rather they dump them all on us less frequently and give us some cycles in between with no balancing and just fixes.

Also, agree with what others have said about the floor and ceiling. I've mained a healer since beta and am not ashamed to admit that I struggle to get my DPS to 30K. Given that healers were recently gutted, I am a little concerned at all of these DPS abilities being made less effective which could mean that the hybrid builds everyone JUST started to try and make are already non-viable.

I'm not amped up yet, since it's early... but I am concerned.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

peacenote wrote: »

Also, agree with what others have said about the floor and ceiling. I've mained a healer since beta and am not ashamed to admit that I struggle to get my DPS to 30K.

I do not see the reason why 30K isn't good enough, so you do not have to be ashamed. Myself doing half bothered rotation depending content. Is a game not a bloody competition of DPS or who can press the buttons faster.

That mentality and toxicity came from the WoW refugees few years back, and should be limited to the 1% leader board chasers.

SirDopey

MasterSpatula wrote: »

norrisnick wrote: »

[snippity snip]

When the problem they are trying to fix is dmg that has gotten completely out of hand what do you suggest? Buff something not currently used (a la soultrap and entropy) to shift the problem but not fix it?

I would say the problem isn't fixing damage that's gotten completely out of control.. The problem is that they consistently, consistently, consistently attempt to fix out-of-control damage among top-tier players in ways that barely affect these top-tier players but hit mid-and-lower-tier players, casuals, and newbies the hardest.

I'm not up on the PTS changes and haven't seen the data on what the results will be yet. But I do know that the last two years have been a string of attempts to address the excesses of the few by punishing the many who are not guilty of those excesses. This is a thing that you do when you're bad.

(Of course, I'll admit to some bias, as the Scalebreaker changes negatively affected my enjoyment of the gameplay so severely that I've lost any ability I ever had to give ZOS the benefit of the doubt.)

^THIS.

Even back when ESO was going up in VR stages (was it 9 - 16?) ZOS would knee jerk to the 1%ers. But yeah, for those of us that have been around since the beginning this isn't the first time, nor will it be the last. Looking forward to 2020....

MattT1988

Mr_Walker wrote: »

norrisnick wrote: »

Did you see the 14min vMOL that was posted recently? When you see 141k parses on a trial boss you have eclipsed the reasonable window...

Did you see the Monaco GP this year? If those dudes can blast through the streets of Monaco at 300km/h inches away from walls, I can too!

In saying that. Would love to have that opportunity just quietly.....

LoreToo

L2P, this patch is good in terms of dps downgrade, thats what devs should probably do

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

SirDopey wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

norrisnick wrote: »

[snippity snip]

When the problem they are trying to fix is dmg that has gotten completely out of hand what do you suggest? Buff something not currently used (a la soultrap and entropy) to shift the problem but not fix it?

I would say the problem isn't fixing damage that's gotten completely out of control.. The problem is that they consistently, consistently, consistently attempt to fix out-of-control damage among top-tier players in ways that barely affect these top-tier players but hit mid-and-lower-tier players, casuals, and newbies the hardest.

I'm not up on the PTS changes and haven't seen the data on what the results will be yet. But I do know that the last two years have been a string of attempts to address the excesses of the few by punishing the many who are not guilty of those excesses. This is a thing that you do when you're bad.

(Of course, I'll admit to some bias, as the Scalebreaker changes negatively affected my enjoyment of the gameplay so severely that I've lost any ability I ever had to give ZOS the benefit of the doubt.)

^THIS.

Even back when ESO was going up in VR stages (was it 9 - 16?) ZOS would knee jerk to the 1%ers. But yeah, for those of us that have been around since the beginning this isn't the first time, nor will it be the last. Looking forward to 2020....

Tbh VR was fine. Content was well balanced in difficulty (after the June 2014 patch, before that we got one shoted by hoarers at Deshaan ) and VR zones were tough but fun also. Cyrodiil was fun also, when fights lasted substantial amount of time, even 1v1 ones especially between balanced tank/dd and killing someone was an achievement. (now is just a fragfest from COD)

But there was a very vocal crying minority who asked for "progression" better known as "endless grind" so CP was what ZOS thought would be better. But that brought power creep.
The content is designed for VR16/CP160 and we are now at VR81/CP810. So new stupid mechanics in dungeons are implemented to slow down a bit power creep and speed runs, which can be seen clearly when try to do the old dungeons in veteran, let alone normal mode. Hell many vet DLC dungeons now take 8-10 minutes to be done.

However that power creep came on skills and abilities combinations. Back bar dots and buffs, front bar main attack etc, and weaving not light & heavy attacks. So the "elitists" in community demanding from everyone press buttons like a 13 year old playing COD, when the majority of the player base is over the age of 40, with 1/3 over 50, according to a recent poll in here.

And ofc the blind copying of builds without understanding how they work.
(yes pointing to Relequen which is the most useless set in this game, good only for the dummy parses or when 8 stamina dds hit a static not moving, without mechanics, target and is useless on every other content).

TirantLoBlanch

it´s simple.
ZOS is saying that we have to waste insane amounts of time leveling skills and learning new rotations, doing boring parses in skeletons, to be rewarded with a lose of only the 30 per cent of our dps, or the 60 if we dont use our free time in front of the dummies.

And worst, you know it´s really throw your time, because they will put upside down the meta a month later.


Games are suposed to be fun an rewarding.
So bye bye eso plus suscription.
I pay for fun, for feel obliged to do boring things i dont enjoy, i expect to be payed

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

TirantLoBlanch wrote: »

it´s simple.
ZOS is saying that we have to waste insane amounts of time leveling skills and learning new rotations, doing boring parses in skeletons, to be rewarded with a lose of only the 30 per cent of our dps, or the 60 if we dont use our free time in front of the dummies.

And worst, you know it´s really throw your time, because they will put upside down the meta a month later.


Games are suposed to be fun an rewarding.
So bye bye eso plus suscription.
I pay for fun, for feel obliged to do boring things i dont enjoy, i expect to be payed

No ZOS doesn't force you to do anything like that, neither telling you to have to waste insane amount of hours learning rotations and doing dummy training to play the game.

Is the elitist part of the community who forces YOU to do those things, if you want to be accepted in their fold.
The game is simple enough on exploring and questing part, and playing at the Normal difficulty content (and non DLC vet) with Sword, Shield in DPS crafted gear using Bitting Jabs, Pierce Armour, Reverse Slash or Surprise attack.

Yeah the above setup does around 20K DPS, with S&B in HA in Templar, Sorc and NB, while you can tank Normal difficulty dungeons (even DLC ones), and heal also. And take the same toon to Cyrodiil having a blast.

Thats the game ZOS designs and promotes to "play as you like", even hybrid Stamina/Magicka build (the game was designed for those builds). Everything else is the toxic elitist community who brought specific builds and rotations in Elder Scrolls.

squinceybones

Yeah all the good players are making us look bad and I've had enough!