is ZOS developing inconvenient content to make money?

Wing

I have been a long time sub and supporter of *most* things ZOS has done. I personally moved to ESO from a "F2P" mmo that I was literally spending lots of money on every week to stay competitive and nickle and dimed you for every tiny convenience or bit of content it could.

so anytime anyone has been like "ESO is pay to win" I just throw my head back and laugh.

HOWEVER

as I sat looking at the motifs in the crown store because a cursory search of guild stores not only didn't have the motif I was looking for, the pieces they did have were AMAZINGLY overpriced, I sat pondering to myself "hmm okay 4k crowns well that's not that bad I. . .WAIT A MINUTE!"

all of a sudden I thought: "is the content BS so that we will drop real money for the rewards. . .?!"

this was touched on back when the psijic skill line (among others) was added to the crown store, the fact that it might set a trend of designing BS content to get people to pay real money to skip it. the same thing can be said of motifs.

dungeon DLC's are by far the least popular and most complained about DLC content we get. are widely considered by the majority of average players to be too hard (something in fact ZOS devs brought up themselves, saying outright that people are not playing them) and are the sole location for many motifs. the amount of motifs being acquired by players compared to the amount of people able to access them is a COLLOSAL difference, and one only need to go search for the motifs in guild stores (if they are even for sale in the first place) to see the absolute crazy prices created by the rarity and scarcity.

but don't worry, the crown store is here to help. . .for 39.99 (or insert your appropriate price here to make a point)

Taleof2Cities

Though I often don't agree with your views, @Wing, you make a great point about the Psijic skill line.

In my opinion, the Psijic skill line was probably the first example of developing content with a future 'time-saving' crown store convenience offering in mind.

As the Psijic line was high on the negative feedback list during PTS testing of Summerset.

ZOS released the content anyway. And (even today) there are complaints in-game and in the forums ... that the quest line is too grindy and boring.

Let's hope this doesn't repeat itself in the future.


Dungeon DLCs are a bit different, IMO.

Players just don't want take 5 minutes to learn the mechanics online or with their groupmates.

However, the same players don't want to run the dungeons on normal mode because they feel entitled to better rewards.

If you learn the mechanics and complete the dungeon, future runs go a lot better (even with random groupies from the dungeon finder).

Which then, by the way, leads to better rewards such as motif page drops.

Morgul667

It feels like it with psijic line yeah

corpseblade

I think the money people are separate from the content people. At least I hope they are. The money people as money people tend to see oportunities in our reactions. They see player impatience, they monetize speed. You can skip this content for a fee. They see player desire to look special, they monetize costumes, motifs, and cosmetics. If the player doesn't want to obtain them in game, make them available for a price. Then they create scarcity by listing in the store for a few days.

If the crown store existed in the real world would you give it your patronage?

Red_Feather

Maybe. I don't know.

Warframe does it for sure. I know that.

Jhalin

All it takes is one look at the welkynar motif to know the answer: yes

Beastygrowls

Pfft. I don't want to run the dungeons at ALL. I have enough to do playing and I'm having a great time. I love the ideas in the game and I can find all kinds of looks and motifs I DO like that I don't have to spend $39.99 (or insert price here) in the crown store NOR do I have to spend time feeling anxious and unnerved by going into dungeons. There's plenty here for everyone. If you want more, you're going to have to go get it, however it is presented.

Jaraal

If you think a multi-billion dollar company doesn't plan it's marketing strategy down to the most minute detail, you'd be quite naive. They absolutely consider the difficulty and player acceptance of content when trying to maximize microtransaction profitability.

Iluvrien

Yes, of course it is. ZOS has been doing this since the Glass Motif came out.

I mean, a double RNG (RNG on fragment drop, RNG on page creation) acquisition that could easily be circumvented by a Crown Store purchase that was released almost concurrently?

ZOS has been doing this for years. They've just been pushing the boundary each time until people finally took notice of it.

Siohwenoeht

Everyone that complained that these skills/skyshards are too grindy is directly responsible for the current state of affairs.

Despite the warnings of myself and others, we are now stuck with a company that is not only willing to put progression for sale, but has now been given carte blanche to sell whatever they want to.

You have received what you deserved.

jainiadral

Honestly, I think you're giving ZOS too much credit. Everything in this game has tons of old-school grind and mentality attached to it. I get the feeling it's part of the core design philosophy. You grind skyshards, skills, skill lines, pieces of motifs and pets. You ride out time gates on mount training, research, fencing stolen materials, etc.

I get the feeling every new skill line added to the game is at the mercy of an automated checklist. Does it have a timer or gating? If the programners answer no, the code automatically won't be added

The monetization is a later feature, maybe some punishment imposed by another department within ZOS. So, players, you don't like our core design? Take this to the wallet! Money assuages their wounded egos.

Or something nothing like that

WrathOfInnos

Jhalin wrote: »

All it takes is one look at the welkynar motif to know the answer: yes

I actually liked the way the Welkynar motif was handled. It was nice to receive a reward from a vet HM trial that was both tradeable and valuable. It gave incentive to keep doing the content after obtaining the skin/achievement/gear. That was a far better experience than the motif from MoL, which was massively farmed by groups in normal and instantly became worthless.

Kiralyn2000

From one point of view, every MMO since the beginning developed "inconvenient content" in order to make money.

Think about it - the first MMOs all required a subscription (money). And they all contained multiple Really Long Grinds that required you to play the game for a long time - thereby needing to subscribe longer (money).



That said, I haven't run into anything yet in the game that seems like it'd be worth the crowns to buy the skill line (or whatever). They honestly seem like a total waste of $ to me, since you can just grind it out in-game more easily. So, no - I pretty much disagree with your idea. /shrug


(there is nothing in this game that I think is worth 4k crowns/$40. I feel like people spending that much clearly have $ to burn. Because no-one else would do it. They're priced much too high for the "people could just casually buy this to skip farming it in-game" thing to make sense.)


edit: personally, I think $10 would be a 'reasonable' price. But I still wouldn't pay that much. They're easy enough to farm.

Iluvrien

jainiadral wrote: »

Honestly, I think you're giving ZOS too much credit. Everything in this game has tons of old-school grind and mentality attached to it. I get the feeling it's part of the core design philosophy. You grind skyshards, skills, skill lines, pieces of motifs and pets. You ride out time gates on mount training, research, fencing stolen materials, etc.

Bolded for my own emphasis, as it relates to my own point in an earlier post.

But pieces of motifs wasn't an original part of the game. The initial motifs (racial) and the original "rare" motifs (Primal, Barbaric, Daedric and Ancient Elf) were all books. Single use items that taught you the whole of the motif style. The first chapter based motif was Dwemer and that was only introduced in later 2014 (i.e. about 6 months after release). With Glass, the one that really crossed the line for me, being introduced with Orsinium in late 2015.

You see, I don't think that piece/chapter motifs were part of the original core design. But as soon as ZOS had decided on OT and making the sub optional, new revenue streams were being explored. Hence the shift.

Varkal2112

Wing wrote: »

dungeon DLC's are by far the least popular and most complained about DLC content we get. are widely considered by the majority of average players to be too hard (something in fact ZOS devs brought up themselves, saying outright that people are not playing them) and are the sole location for many motifs. the amount of motifs being acquired by players compared to the amount of people able to access them is a COLLOSAL difference, and one only need to go search for the motifs in guild stores (if they are even for sale in the first place) to see the absolute crazy prices created by the rarity and scarcity.

but don't worry, the crown store is here to help. . .for 39.99 (or insert your appropriate price here to make a point)

If you can't do dlc vet dungeons at cp 810, uninstall the game mate. I hit cp 300 yesterday and had no problem getting Zaan, then doing WGT for the daily and today farming CoS for a few hours. If it can be done at cp 300, it can sure be done at cp 810. This game is already too easy, it shouldn't be watered down even more.

Ozby

This game is very grindy especially if you have 18 toons, putting these skill lines and sky shards in crown store is a good thing imo but they are just to expensive for me sadly.

redspecter23

I think the Welkynar motif very easily falls into this category. It was made intentionally difficult and monotonous to acquire only to be found as a single click away in the crown store. The existence of the store altered the implementation of the drops in game quite obviously in that case.

ZOS has to be very careful not to step too far over the line where convenience becomes the norm and the in game methods of progressing become a slow slog by comparison. I'd say they have been doing fairly well overall relative to other games but this will be subjective. I personally didn't mind the Psijic grind (did it on 18 toons) but I completely understand how it would be a horrible experience for other players to do that on multiple toons. With it now buyable in the store, ZOS has created not a convenience but what many will view as the "normal" way of acquiring the skill line on alts with the in game method being too grindy to think about.

If this trend continues then we'll see many players grow tired of what will be viewed as a massive push to go to the store instead of playing the game which should always be the preferred method. Convenience has to be careful to remain convenience which is hard when every player has a different perception of convenience to start with.

redspecter23

Varkal2112 wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

dungeon DLC's are by far the least popular and most complained about DLC content we get. are widely considered by the majority of average players to be too hard (something in fact ZOS devs brought up themselves, saying outright that people are not playing them) and are the sole location for many motifs. the amount of motifs being acquired by players compared to the amount of people able to access them is a COLLOSAL difference, and one only need to go search for the motifs in guild stores (if they are even for sale in the first place) to see the absolute crazy prices created by the rarity and scarcity.

but don't worry, the crown store is here to help. . .for 39.99 (or insert your appropriate price here to make a point)

If you can't do dlc vet dungeons at cp 810, uninstall the game mate. I hit cp 300 yesterday and had no problem getting Zaan, then doing WGT for the daily and today farming CoS for a few hours. If it can be done at cp 300, it can sure be done at cp 810. This game is already too easy, it shouldn't be watered down even more.

I don't think he's even suggesting that the content be made easier. Only suggesting that the vast majority of the player base can not complete vet dlc dungeons and I agree completely. Those that are inclined to progress and enjoy the challenge of harder content will have no issue with it, but remember that this game has a very large casual player base. Some people log in, spend 8 hours doing crafting and housing and log off completely happy with that game experience. They are not able to acquire the DLC dungeon motifs in the traditional farming method. The point is that for some players who are just not into vet DLC content, there will be at least some semblance of a push toward the crown store in this situation. Suggesting that anyone not willing to grind vet dungeons to complete a motif set should uninstall the game is very short sighted and we should be happy that ZOS doesn't take that approach. We'd be left with a small handful of hardcore players in an empty game world.

kargen27

Short answer... no they are not.

AlnilamE

I just want to point out that, unlike Welkynar, the dungeon motifs drop in normal too (just less frequently).

And one of my guildies started tanking dungeons because he wanted the Mazzatun motifs and now he spends his days tanking DLC dungeons because he started to really enjoy them.

I will never buy a motif from the store, whether its available in game or not. For Welkynar, I waited for the Jubilee event and bought all the pieces I didn't get from the boxes.

Jhalin

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

All it takes is one look at the welkynar motif to know the answer: yes

I actually liked the way the Welkynar motif was handled. It was nice to receive a reward from a vet HM trial that was both tradeable and valuable. It gave incentive to keep doing the content after obtaining the skin/achievement/gear. That was a far better experience than the motif from MoL, which was massively farmed by groups in normal and instantly became worthless.

Except, due to the motif book being released on the store the same day as it was released in-game, the ability to find value in it was hard limited from the start.

Ri_Khan

This is what MMO's are, yes?

Van_Winkle

Ri_Khan wrote: »

This is what MMO's are, yes?

No.

Starlock

Ri_Khan wrote: »

This is what MMO's are, yes?

Only if that stands for “microtransaction milking online.”

MLGProPlayer

as I sat looking at the motifs in the crown store because a cursory search of guild stores not only didn't have the motif I was looking for, the pieces they did have were AMAZINGLY overpriced, I sat pondering to myself "hmm okay 4k crowns well that's not that bad I. . .WAIT A MINUTE!"

Motifs are dirt cheap. The most expensive pages are maybe 100k, which you can farm in 2 hours if you're poor. Then there is the anniversary event every year which literally tanks the price of every motif to the point that they are basically being given away for free. If you can't afford motifs, then go make some gold. Money is incredibly easy to make in this game.

dungeon DLC's are by far the least popular and most complained about DLC content we get. are widely considered by the majority of average players to be too hard (something in fact ZOS devs brought up themselves, saying outright that people are not playing them) and are the sole location for many motifs. the amount of motifs being acquired by players compared to the amount of people able to access them is a COLLOSAL difference, and one only need to go search for the motifs in guild stores (if they are even for sale in the first place) to see the absolute crazy prices created by the rarity and scarcity.

Quit complaining. Casuals get an entire expansion and story DLC each year. That's 40 hours of content. Endgame players need something to do in this game as well. That's why we get a handful of dungeons each year. If anything, there should be more dungeons. And running difficult content should be rewarding. That's why the motifs drop from there.

Want the motifs? You have two options:

1. Learn the dungeon mechanics
2. Buy them from people who have learned the dungeon mechanics

You can't have everything you want for free. Either go make some gold or learn to complete difficult content.

MLGProPlayer

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

From one point of view, every MMO since the beginning developed "inconvenient content" in order to make money.

Think about it - the first MMOs all required a subscription (money). And they all contained multiple Really Long Grinds that required you to play the game for a long time - thereby needing to subscribe longer (money).



That said, I haven't run into anything yet in the game that seems like it'd be worth the crowns to buy the skill line (or whatever). They honestly seem like a total waste of $ to me, since you can just grind it out in-game more easily. So, no - I pretty much disagree with your idea. /shrug


(there is nothing in this game that I think is worth 4k crowns/$40. I feel like people spending that much clearly have $ to burn. Because no-one else would do it. They're priced much too high for the "people could just casually buy this to skip farming it in-game" thing to make sense.)


edit: personally, I think $10 would be a 'reasonable' price. But I still wouldn't pay that much. They're easy enough to farm.

This entire genre is designed around grind. If you don't like grind, you're playing the wrong game.

If anything, ESO is probably the least grindy MMO out there.

Kel

Time will tell.

If the next thing they introduce is incredibly tedious, boring, grindy and lackluster...and they offer an option to pay to skip it, we'll know it's by design.

Nemesis7884

which developper doesnt do this these days unfortunately...

bmnoble

When it comes to buying motifs, if people try to over price them on guild stores its drives people to paying less gold for crowns to get the whole motif gifted to them. Not going to pay my own real money for the motifs.

The only thing I have spent real money on aside from the sub was extra character slots.

I don't really have a problem with the pay to skip stuff but it says a lot about the game design when people actively ask for those options.

Would have personally preferred a dual approach to the skill lines and sky-shards (I know I can go and play and unlock them) But an option to pay large amounts of gold instead of crowns would have been nice as well.

Would not surprise me at this point, if they added an instant level 50 token but if they did it would be stupidly overpriced.

MLGProPlayer

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I don't really have a problem with the pay to skip stuff but it says a lot about the game design when people actively ask for those options.

This.

Lore book grinding, skyshard grinding, Undaunted grinding, etc. were all in the game from release, long before pay-to-skip items entered the crown store. Hell, long before we even had a crown store.

MMOs are designed to make you spend inordinate amounts of time on mundane tasks. There is not a single MMO on the market that doesn't do this (ESO is probably the least egregious, if anything).

nafensoriel

Wing wrote: »

/snipsnip

There are far far better ways to make money than to annoy your clients and customers.

In no way shape or form would it make sense for them to do this.

What you are most likely experiencing is gating mechanics.. which is in every MMO and RPG game since the beginning of video games.