L2P Issues Making Game Less Fun?

Skoomah

We’ve seen the cycle far too many times. Experienced players feel that at different moments in time, that the game was relatively well balanced. The experienced players spent the time learning the intricacies of combat mechanics and counters and were content with where the game was in terms of balance.

But then there was larger chunk of the community that was not proactive enough to learn the intracracies of combat mechanics and counters. They didn’t go online and research strategies and tactics to improve and raise their compete level.

ZOS makes a business decision and says we will always try to make the most people as possible happy. So they cater to the players who refuse to L2P and lower the learning curve, homogenizing the classes and skills and passives. And on top of that, make other game breaking changes that upsets most of the community, experienced players and L2P crowd alike.

I blame ourselves for this mess. If the huge chunk of the community wasn’t so lazy to L2P, the game would still be fun to play.

VaranisArano

Heaven forbid that maybe the Devs actually get better at teaching players how to play at different levels of PVE content...


(I'll admit they are trying. As much as I hate starting in a new tutorial every Chapter, Elsweyr's was the best combat tutorial so far. The Skills Advisor was a step in the right direction. But if I'm honest, PVP is still an incredbly steep learning curve and ZOS hasn't figured out how to teach PVEers to do group content effectively, while if you want to learn a "rotation" used for everything in end game PVE, you have to use outside sources.)

Idinuse

Yes

The whining L2P crowd has literally destroyed this game. Time and time over.

Skoomah

Yes

I can attest to the fact that game balance was achieved multiple times over 5 years. But there was always that chunk of the player base that had a loud voice on the forums and was effective in getting ZOS to change the game for the worse... making it less fun to play the game.

Alienoutlaw

No

its a game and not a requirement to meet the "elite meta" if ppl choose not thats for them, sure it impacts my game for a few days till i figure out how to re=balance but ultimately the game is ment to be fun, and as with all things you have to cater to the lowest common denominator not the niche

Rungar

so you want the average player to sit in front of a combat dummy and franticly mash buttons until it becomes natural to do so?

ESO is its own worst enemy. lol.

Kadoin

Yes

In this game "L2P" usually involves knowing how to bug a system or do something unintended, because the content itself might be buggy.

If that's the case, exactly how can anyone find it fun?

Also, the game is mostly a dumb DPS race, even in PvP now. ZOS reinforced that with the last DLC (Scalebreaker)...

Alienoutlaw

No

Rungar wrote: »

so you want the average player to sit in front of a combat dummy and franticly mash buttons until it becomes natural to do so?

ESO is its own worst enemy. lol.

is that not all the "elites" do with cookie cutter builds?

Berserkerkitten

Other

Yay for more division! ZOS did something stupid with the balancing, so let's automatically assume it's in the name of casual players and all hate each other, because reasons I guess.

bmnoble

Other

Skoomah wrote: »

We’ve seen the cycle far too many times. Experienced players feel that at different moments in time, that the game was relatively well balanced. The experienced players spent the time learning the intricacies of combat mechanics and counters and were content with where the game was in terms of balance.

But then there was larger chunk of the community that was not proactive enough to learn the intracracies of combat mechanics and counters. They didn’t go online and research strategies and tactics to improve and raise their compete level.

ZOS makes a business decision and says we will always try to make the most people as possible happy. So they cater to the players who refuse to L2P and lower the learning curve, homogenizing the classes and skills and passives. And on top of that, make other game breaking changes that upsets most of the community, experienced players and L2P crowd alike.

I blame ourselves for this mess. If the huge chunk of the community wasn’t so lazy to L2P, the game would still be fun to play.

Like you said they went with the option to make the most people happy, they want more customers in the hopes of hooking more whales who will spend a lot in game. They don't make the game to make everyone happy, they make it to make money.

There are a lot more casual players than those experienced players you speak of.

Without that large chunk of the community there would be no game, you need lots of paying customers to make an MMO viable not just the hardcore players who commit as much time to the game as a second job.

If the game lost those casual players all that would change is you would be creating a thread like this one on another MMO's forums, casual players will outnumber experienced players no matter which game you decide to play.

While if the game loses the experienced players who make these complaints, cold hard fact is, they got your money and they got you hooked, you may leave for awhile but most will always come back to try and justify the amount of time and money wasted on the game.

Ultimately the hardcore players are a minority, they get most of their revenue from casuals and whales, they will always be given priority when it comes to game design.

that's my 2 cents

These polls will never show a complete picture, since the vast majority of players never bother with the forums until something goes wrong and even then only the most interested will browse on a regular basis.

jainiadral

...wat...

Nerfs hit casuals harder than high end players. The biggest nerfs were to petsorcs, who are supposed to be the easy-peasy cheeseball toons to play according to the forum warriors.

Sometimes I read posts here and I feel like I'm Alice on the wrong side of the looking glass

Vlad9425

Lag is making the game not fun to play then there’s the bad balancing issues but honestly if the game was actually playable in the first place then people would work around the bad balancing.

GrimTheReaper45

Yes

Im a bit mixed on this. Like yes, without a doubt their are stupid nerfs or just game changes that have come from players who think they know the game or are struggling to learn the game or have just experienced a portion of what combat is like for some classes.

Honestly though, most of why combat is worst is just poor changes from zos that not a large amount of players wanted. Just a few mentions. Morrowind sustain nerf, crystal frag loosing stun, buff/nerf to runecage, offbalance nerf, morrowind templar nerfs, surge nerf, racial balance changes, nb loosing berserk, dark deal/exchange being made a half over time effect. Shall I go on?

Like ya, some of those were a result of trying to address problems. Warden being bad at healing with the templar nerf, magsorc being op in trials for a time with off balance, Nightblade being the go to in trials with the berserk change. Most of them were out of nowhere though and the ones that were to address issues didnt really relate to what was being complained about and effected more than just the problems they were trying to address.

Bouldercleave

Other

A VAST majority of the community doesn't take this (or any other) game seriously enough to study videos, character builds, blueprints, mechanics, field journals, etc. and enjoy playing the game for the simple relaxation of getting out of the real world.

I already have a 50+ hour a week job and have completed all the schooling that I am going to in this life time.

If I feel the need to study and train for the "privilege" of being able to be included in the elitist 1% I'll just go find something else to play - the operative word here being PLAY.

If you want to be on the leaderboard, by all means do your thing. But the majority of us that just want to have fun really wish the meta chasing elitists would just STFU.

Linaleah

Idinuse wrote: »

The whining L2P crowd has literally destroyed this game. Time and time over.

THIS.

especialy seeing how all these nerfs and class adjustments predominantly make the game less fun to play for the so called l2p players NOT the elitists at the top, who simply adjust and raise the dps ceiling even more.

Iluvrien

Other

Balance without homogenization is a myth.

ZOS keeps chasing it because the competitive content crowd keeps complaining.

And since that group contains many of the most visible members of the community (GMs, streamers, class reps) ZOS will keep trying new things. That ZOS seem to be capable of making changes due to the calls for “balance”, while simultaneously ignoring the feedback of the people they’ve involved in the search for it, is both hilarious and tragic.

The calls for “balance” will never stop. Perfect balance will never be achieved.

I have come to the conclusion that it is a cycle that has one of two outcomes:

1) The game ends with ZOS still fruitlessly chasing perfect balance.

2) ZOS gives up on perfect balance and aims for best fun instead.

In the mean time... we all lose.

Blobsky

No

Voted no because of how bias the poll is xD

bearbelly

Ah, the eternal whine of "hard-core" video-gamers in ALL the games: "filthy casuals are ruining my game!"

angrylizard

Yes

Bouldercleave wrote: »

A VAST majority of the community doesn't take this (or any other) game seriously enough to study videos, character builds, blueprints, mechanics, field journals, etc. and enjoy playing the game for the simple relaxation of getting out of the real world.

I already have a 50+ hour a week job and have completed all the schooling that I am going to in this life time.

If I feel the need to study and train for the "privilege" of being able to be included in the elitist 1% I'll just go find something else to play - the operative word here being PLAY.

If you want to be on the leaderboard, by all means do your thing. But the majority of us that just want to have fun really wish the meta chasing elitists would just STFU.

No they shouldn't stfu, the end of the day if they put in the hours to learn how to play the game, they should have every right to write their opinion. Who would rather listen to someone that been playing the game for a few months with a few hours a week or someone who worked hours upon hours since beta trying to find the meta. I know who I would listen to.

However I am not saying that those people should be ignored. They also have some decent opinions that can make this game better for us all.

TheHsN

Yes

It is more like, Change the play issue... EVery 2 months I have to change my playing style, my races, my skills, my gears,

I WANT TO PLAY THE GAME... LEAVE ME ZOS PLAY THE GAME

Kiralyn2000

Skoomah wrote: »

So they cater to the players who refuse to L2P...
...If the huge chunk of the community wasn’t so lazy to L2P...

Oh, look. A l33t-d00d "casuals suck" thread. Charming.

Vicinia

Yes

Why is there no in-between? Why is it that you are either a "casual" or a "elitist"? Why can't we expect people to simply be competent at their respective role?

There are people who don't understand and/or care to understand the basic combat mechanics in this game. You don't need to be an elitist to be competent. You don't need to do ridiculous amounts of research either.

Just contribute adequately to the dungeon that's all. I'm more than happy to explain mechanics, I'm no stickler for DPS either. I just want to complete the dungeon. I don't need to have an 810 only using snipe when I'm trying to do vCoA2. Or a stamsorc spamming crystal frags. if you try to be nice and explain things to them, they throw a temper tantrum. Those types of players who choose to be willfully ignorant shouldn't be catered to, because they'll just continue to be as they are because they skate by as it is.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Other

Idinuse wrote: »

The whining L2P crowd has literally destroyed this game. Time and time over.

If by L2P means 2 DD jokers CP160+ can try to do vDoM with their combined DPS of 14,000 and the Tank has no saying nor complain, you are totally wrong.

Cavedog

Maybe the real problem is so many people looking for a reason to tell the community to L2P.

winged_tortoise

Game mechanics are compelling and a lot of fun. Eventually even the biggest noob is going to surrender to their lure.

I don’t blame ZOS. It’s more on us, the game community.

JumpmanLane

Most folks I know who’ve played a long time and are skilled at the game are running around happy, saying “best patch ever!” Or “I’m having FUN!” Because no matter what nerfs came down the pike with Turdbreaker they theory crafted something that works.

People waiting for Alcast to define the new meta, people running cookie cutter builds, and people crutching or running cheese are mad.

Clueless casuals don’t seem to notice any changes and are blissfully puttering about as usual.

LuxLunae

Skoomah wrote: »

We’ve seen the cycle far too many times. Experienced players feel that at different moments in time, that the game was relatively well balanced. The experienced players spent the time learning the intricacies of combat mechanics and counters and were content with where the game was in terms of balance.

But then there was larger chunk of the community that was not proactive enough to learn the intracracies of combat mechanics and counters. They didn’t go online and research strategies and tactics to improve and raise their compete level.

ZOS makes a business decision and says we will always try to make the most people as possible happy. So they cater to the players who refuse to L2P and lower the learning curve, homogenizing the classes and skills and passives. And on top of that, make other game breaking changes that upsets most of the community, experienced players and L2P crowd alike.

I blame ourselves for this mess. If the huge chunk of the community wasn’t so lazy to L2P, the game would still be fun to play.

I don't give a damn what this post is about.. Breaking free twice after being stunned then feared is BS... wtf happend to CC immunity?

You can't l2p a *** up

SirAndy

Other

Skoomah wrote: »

If the huge chunk of the community wasn’t so lazy to L2P, the game would still be fun to play.

karekiz

No

Skoomah wrote: »

I blame ourselves for this mess. If the huge chunk of the community wasn’t so PvP focused, the game would still be fun to play.

Fixed that for you

Aznarb

No

L2P is not the problem, power-creep is.

Beardimus

Yes

Skoomah wrote: »

We’ve seen the cycle far too many times. Experienced players feel that at different moments in time, that the game was relatively well balanced. The experienced players spent the time learning the intricacies of combat mechanics and counters and were content with where the game was in terms of balance.

But then there was larger chunk of the community that was not proactive enough to learn the intracracies of combat mechanics and counters. They didn’t go online and research strategies and tactics to improve and raise their compete level.

ZOS makes a business decision and says we will always try to make the most people as possible happy. So they cater to the players who refuse to L2P and lower the learning curve, homogenizing the classes and skills and passives. And on top of that, make other game breaking changes that upsets most of the community, experienced players and L2P crowd alike.

I blame ourselves for this mess. If the huge chunk of the community wasn’t so lazy to L2P, the game would still be fun to play.

Yep, look at sorc wards. People wouldn't learn to counter and kept moaning, sorcs adapted to nerfmire and now are less glass cannon with wards down as have resistances and impen, so harder to kill with then down, Lol.