DOT META vs. The Sloads Aprocalypse

TBois

So how would y'all compare this new pvp dot meta versus the sload's meta (sloads in it's original form)? They seem similar to me. There is a ton of passive stacking damage going around in both cases, one based off of skills and one based off of sets. Does the difference in origin make a difference in how you feel about it? I'd prefer to discuss this in terms of pros and cons, but I understand if this devolves into a pissing match.

TheBonesXXX

Personally I think Unfathomable Darkness should have been stronger so we had a Murder Meta.

NBrookus

Both issues were about the ease of application of powerful mechanics. Same for the Proctopia patches.

The dots we're talking about don't do huge damage, especially when we see what hots are doing now. But they are so easy to apply from max range, with no need to specialize or build for them, their impact is outsized compared to the damage.

Bosov

NBrookus wrote: »

Both issues were about the ease of application of powerful mechanics. Same for the Proctopia patches.

The dots we're talking about don't do huge damage, especially when we see what hots are doing now. But they are so easy to apply from max range, with no need to specialize or build for them, their impact is outsized compared to the damage.

Dont do huge damage? On average i think one cast of entropy does about 1k damage per second and so does soul trap.

There are screenshots of 12k entropy dots. I had a 10k fetcher dot from a mag warden on my recap today.

Just one dot can be outhealed by a hot but all those dots? It is just too much to outheal.

Vapirko

For me there's really just one big offender rn and thats Entropy. It's so overloaded. It is now the strongest or one of the strongest single target dots, it gives major sorcery along with 2% max mag and mag recovery and heals. It was a useful skill before and I am still unclear as to why an already good utility skill got such a massive dot especially when mag builds weren't exactly hurting for dots. What gets me is that ZOS was just talking about how skills should be either high damage or high in utility and not both.

For me soul trap is not so bad though perhaps a bit strong. At least its still usable on both mag and stam and it doesn't have any passives in that skill line to synergize with and only provides small secondary effects which are both useful.

Sloads was still worse though imo. But it was also compounded by the glyph bugs at that time.

WuffyCerulei

Sload's was worse because:
1) It's oblivion damage. So it ignores your resists and shields.
2) The set is craftable, so ANYONE could wear it and proc it from just dealing any damage.
3) It stacked on top of other people's Sload's. So imagine many dots hitting you while ignoring both shields and resists.
4) It didn't require a skill slot or even aiming at the target to damage them.
5) IT IGNORED BATTLE SPIRIT.

The dots from skills eat a skill slot, actually have to be targeted, don't ignore resistances or shields, and is affected by Battle Spirit. I have no idea if they can stack fo sho.

No_Division

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Sload's was worse because:
1) It's oblivion damage. So it ignores your resists and shields.
2) The set is craftable, so ANYONE could wear it and proc it from just dealing any damage.
3) It stacked on top of other people's Sload's. So imagine many dots hitting you while ignoring both shields and resists.
4) It didn't require a skill slot or even aiming at the target to damage them.
5) IT IGNORED BATTLE SPIRIT.

The dots from skills eat a skill slot, actually have to be targeted, don't ignore resistances or shields, and is affected by Battle Spirit. I have no idea if they can stack fo sho.

They are both pretty accessible, but there mitigation is true. Sadly it only there was a jewel trait or major protection set that could help us mitigate these tooltips . Oh wait! The "balance brigade" got those nerfed first week of pts lulz.

Emma_Overload

Sload's was worse. Although there is one similarity:

Nightblades get a free exemption from damage as usual.

1) Sload's got nerfed (twice) so that it wouldn't bring them out of stealth and so stamblades could dodge it anyway.

2) DOTs are brutal against everyone except purgebot Templars and, you guessed it, Nightblades, who somehow get to "suppress" DOTs whenever they feel like it!

brandonv516

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Sload's was worse. Although there is one similarity:

Nightblades get a free exemption from damage as usual.

1) Sload's got nerfed (twice) so that it wouldn't bring them out of stealth and so stamblades couold dodge it anyway.

2) DOTs are brutal against everyone except purgebot Templars and, you guessed it, Nightblades, who somehow get to "suppress" DOTs whenever they feel like it!

This was the trade off for giving up the cleanse morph of Cloak.

Firstmep

On my magplar im hitting some ppl for 1,8k 2k entropy ticks in no cp.
Considering that ppl were doing that much damage with bleeds before its not unreasonable. I do find it weird it tho that both entropy and consuming trap do more damage than for example sun fire.
Again in no cp my sun fire has a 18k tooltip, my entropy has 26k. Not exactly standardised as was promised.

Emma_Overload

Firstmep wrote: »

On my magplar im hitting some ppl for 1,8k 2k entropy ticks in no cp.
Considering that ppl were doing that much damage with bleeds before its not unreasonable. I do find it weird it tho that both entropy and consuming trap do more damage than for example sun fire.
Again in no cp my sun fire has a 18k tooltip, my entropy has 26k. Not exactly standardised as was promised.

Sun Fire is only 8 seconds, right? Entropy is 12 seconds. Because it is 50% longer duration, it SHOULD have a 50% higher tooltip. Therefore, the dps of these two spells is about the same.

Working as intended!

Vapirko

Firstmep wrote: »

On my magplar im hitting some ppl for 1,8k 2k entropy ticks in no cp.
Considering that ppl were doing that much damage with bleeds before its not unreasonable. I do find it weird it tho that both entropy and consuming trap do more damage than for example sun fire.
Again in no cp my sun fire has a 18k tooltip, my entropy has 26k. Not exactly standardised as was promised.

Here's the differences:

1) stamina classes in general do not have access to many dots some have none at all so bleeds was probably the only dot you were getting hit with unless they scarified a 5th piece trait. even then bleeds were only really strong in the case of Master DW sometimes.

2) bleeds cannot be applied at range.

3) bleeds were the secondary effect. not like entropy where you're getting major brutality a heal and 2% max mag and mag recovery alongside a huge dot.

4) the entropy dot is larger than any bleed I know of including the main damage portion of rending slashes. At best I only ever remember bleeds hitting for about 1k per tick so 1.8 to 2k is quite an increase from that not to mention all the other benefits from entropy.

ll_Rev

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

On my magplar im hitting some ppl for 1,8k 2k entropy ticks in no cp.
Considering that ppl were doing that much damage with bleeds before its not unreasonable. I do find it weird it tho that both entropy and consuming trap do more damage than for example sun fire.
Again in no cp my sun fire has a 18k tooltip, my entropy has 26k. Not exactly standardised as was promised.

Sun Fire is only 8 seconds, right? Entropy is 12 seconds. Because it is 50% longer duration, it SHOULD have a 50% higher tooltip. Therefore, the dps of these two spells is about the same.

Working as intended!

you really are clueless...

Emma_Overload

ll_Rev wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

On my magplar im hitting some ppl for 1,8k 2k entropy ticks in no cp.
Considering that ppl were doing that much damage with bleeds before its not unreasonable. I do find it weird it tho that both entropy and consuming trap do more damage than for example sun fire.
Again in no cp my sun fire has a 18k tooltip, my entropy has 26k. Not exactly standardised as was promised.

Sun Fire is only 8 seconds, right? Entropy is 12 seconds. Because it is 50% longer duration, it SHOULD have a 50% higher tooltip. Therefore, the dps of these two spells is about the same.

Working as intended!

you really are clueless...

How about explaining why you think I'm wrong instead of just tossing an insult?

Austinseph1

It would have been fine if vigor buffs were left but too much forum outcry so balance will be in the Magicka side for a while

red_emu

I wouldn't worry. I have a feeling, that with this Monday's patch, all the DoT's will be halved again.

OtarTheMad

red_emu wrote: »

I wouldn't worry. I have a feeling, that with this Monday's patch, all the DoT's will be halved again.

So, in other words, stamina is going to be on top again?

WuffyCerulei

red_emu wrote: »

I wouldn't worry. I have a feeling, that with this Monday's patch, all the DoT's will be halved again.

If they didn’t change the dots on the PTS, they aren’t just gonna do it now. Maybe bext big update.

Thanatos_inside

Dots even worse. ZOS destroyed pvp and pve rotation. Game is so bad now. This is the worst patch ever

Asmael

Emma_Overload wrote: »

ll_Rev wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

On my magplar im hitting some ppl for 1,8k 2k entropy ticks in no cp.
Considering that ppl were doing that much damage with bleeds before its not unreasonable. I do find it weird it tho that both entropy and consuming trap do more damage than for example sun fire.
Again in no cp my sun fire has a 18k tooltip, my entropy has 26k. Not exactly standardised as was promised.

Sun Fire is only 8 seconds, right? Entropy is 12 seconds. Because it is 50% longer duration, it SHOULD have a 50% higher tooltip. Therefore, the dps of these two spells is about the same.

Working as intended!

you really are clueless...

How about explaining why you think I'm wrong instead of just tossing an insult?

@Emma_Overload



Althought he said "Sun fire", which is the base ability and not a morph. I don't play magplar regularly, but I wouldn't be surprised if Entropy had a bigger tooltip than even Vamp bane. Entropy has a bigger tooltip than even Venomous claw. Not to mention it being ranged results in it being on the top of damage done in pretty much all my fights.

Kadoin

OtarTheMad wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

I wouldn't worry. I have a feeling, that with this Monday's patch, all the DoT's will be halved again.

So, in other words, stamina is going to be on top again?

It still is on top for anyone that didn't always run around a tree...

Koensol

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Sload's was worse. Although there is one similarity:

Nightblades get a free exemption from damage as usual.

1) Sload's got nerfed (twice) so that it wouldn't bring them out of stealth and so stamblades could dodge it anyway.

2) DOTs are brutal against everyone except purgebot Templars and, you guessed it, Nightblades, who somehow get to "suppress" DOTs whenever they feel like it!

Alex Jones, that you?

OT: I personally think neither sloads patch nor this patch hold a candle to the abomination that was nerfmire release. The double dw infused torugs cancer in the middle of a snare and root meta was the worst pvp this game has ever seen. I think people forgot about that because ZOS fixed it "relatively" fast.

NBrookus

Bosov wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Both issues were about the ease of application of powerful mechanics. Same for the Proctopia patches.

The dots we're talking about don't do huge damage, especially when we see what hots are doing now. But they are so easy to apply from max range, with no need to specialize or build for them, their impact is outsized compared to the damage.

Dont do huge damage? On average i think one cast of entropy does about 1k damage per second and so does soul trap.

There are screenshots of 12k entropy dots. I had a 10k fetcher dot from a mag warden on my recap today.

Just one dot can be outhealed by a hot but all those dots? It is just too much to outheal.

1k dps is not huge damage. Just because it ticks on you for a long time doesn't make it huge. If 8 people apply 1k dps dot to you, it's still not huge -- it's 8 people attacking you. Would you rather eat 8 Snipes?

The problem is that those 8 people are at max range at zero risk.

Vapirko wrote: »

For me there's really just one big offender rn and thats Entropy. It's so overloaded. It is now the strongest or one of the strongest single target dots, it gives major sorcery along with 2% max mag and mag recovery and heals. It was a useful skill before and I am still unclear as to why an already good utility skill got such a massive dot especially when mag builds weren't exactly hurting for dots.

Entropy is a tough one. It's the go-to source (in same cases the ONLY source) for Major Sorcery. But it requires a target. Those mag toons don't get to pre-buff before a fight, automatically they are losing 1 GCD just to get an essential buff; 1 second of losing the initiative in a fight is not minor.

Entropy having some damage seems reasonable so it's isn't a dead slot that does nothing else. But the damage portion ticking over ~6 seconds perhaps would be more appropriate. You aren't going to give up 1/6 GCDs for 1dps.

MyGTX

make sload great again

coletas

I simply hate every "automatic damage" skills. So i hate this patch. It makes fights boring as hell. Also unplayable for most players . Im lucky that my main is a magplar, but even with a magplar is hard to survive to everybody shooting dots, dots and more dots. You need to add cleanse ritual to rotation lol and even with that most damage is still from dots from people that is in the orher side of the map. Boring, very boring.

OtarTheMad

Kadoin wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

I wouldn't worry. I have a feeling, that with this Monday's patch, all the DoT's will be halved again.

So, in other words, stamina is going to be on top again?

It still is on top for anyone that didn't always run around a tree...

Very true. My stamblade does just fine even in this DoT meta.

Vapirko

NBrookus wrote: »

Bosov wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Both issues were about the ease of application of powerful mechanics. Same for the Proctopia patches.

The dots we're talking about don't do huge damage, especially when we see what hots are doing now. But they are so easy to apply from max range, with no need to specialize or build for them, their impact is outsized compared to the damage.

Dont do huge damage? On average i think one cast of entropy does about 1k damage per second and so does soul trap.

There are screenshots of 12k entropy dots. I had a 10k fetcher dot from a mag warden on my recap today.

Just one dot can be outhealed by a hot but all those dots? It is just too much to outheal.

1k dps is not huge damage. Just because it ticks on you for a long time doesn't make it huge. If 8 people apply 1k dps dot to you, it's still not huge -- it's 8 people attacking you. Would you rather eat 8 Snipes?

The problem is that those 8 people are at max range at zero risk.

Vapirko wrote: »

For me there's really just one big offender rn and thats Entropy. It's so overloaded. It is now the strongest or one of the strongest single target dots, it gives major sorcery along with 2% max mag and mag recovery and heals. It was a useful skill before and I am still unclear as to why an already good utility skill got such a massive dot especially when mag builds weren't exactly hurting for dots.

Entropy is a tough one. It's the go-to source (in same cases the ONLY source) for Major Sorcery. But it requires a target. Those mag toons don't get to pre-buff before a fight, automatically they are losing 1 GCD just to get an essential buff; 1 second of losing the initiative in a fight is not minor.

Entropy having some damage seems reasonable so it's isn't a dead slot that does nothing else. But the damage portion ticking over ~6 seconds perhaps would be more appropriate. You aren't going to give up 1/6 GCDs for 1dps.

Ok yeah you can’t prebuff. Idk about you personally but when I play mag toons, I’m never ever ever thinking to myself, man applying entropy at range is a real problem. In fact it’s no issue at all so I really don’t think that’s a pain point. Entropy was worth slotting on a lot of builds last patch and for a long time before that and not just for the major sorcery. It was a well rounded utility skill. There’s really no reason for the massive dot. Because now it’s just moved into the one skill does everything category which is not good for the game. No abilities should be like. Living Dark has definitely moved into that category as well. That’s like adding major brutality to rending slashes along with max stam and stam recovery bonuses. Would I love that as a stam player? Sure. But I’d never advocate for it because it would be overloaded as hell.

BaByDontHurtMe

Time for dots and Sloads, embrace the meta. Dots just leveled magicka closer to stamina and everyone loses their minds, love the drama.

Ozazz

the dot's should have never been introduced into the game especially as single target healing has gotten worse.
Benefit that mass, not the solo.
Typically the trend which is horrible!

BlackMadara

Firstmep wrote: »

On my magplar im hitting some ppl for 1,8k 2k entropy ticks in no cp.
Considering that ppl were doing that much damage with bleeds before its not unreasonable. I do find it weird it tho that both entropy and consuming trap do more damage than for example sun fire.
Again in no cp my sun fire has a 18k tooltip, my entropy has 26k. Not exactly standardised as was promised.

The DoTs are balanced based on total DPS over the entire duration with no additional passives. Sun Fire's direct damage is taken into account. Therefore, with no passives and abilities leveled up to IV, they should deal almost the exact same DPS. I tested this with my magDK. Entropy, Soul Trap, and Burning Embers all deal the same DPS with no passives. The DoT from BE ticks for less damage due to the direct damage portion of the skill.

kpittsniperb14_ESO

Firstmep wrote: »

On my magplar im hitting some ppl for 1,8k 2k entropy ticks in no cp.
Considering that ppl were doing that much damage with bleeds before its not unreasonable. I do find it weird it tho that both entropy and consuming trap do more damage than for example sun fire.
Again in no cp my sun fire has a 18k tooltip, my entropy has 26k. Not exactly standardised as was promised.

Yeah, but then again they aren't selling the Templar skill lines in the crown store yet.