Next time you see popular streamers open a bunch of crown crates ...

Carbonised

... you may want to consider this first:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tehbMHfyiPw

Take away points:
- The gaming industry commonly pays popular 'influencers' to 'react' to loot boxes and their drops
- Even going so far as to sometimes tweak the odds favourably for the 'influencer's loot boxes, to make them seem more generous
- Who knows what other BS goes on behind the scene, making any 'promises' to reveal loot boxes droprates seem hollow and meaningless at best, and a diversion and smokescreen at worst

CipherNine

It's always been obvious how streamers have special benefits in games with lootboxes.I think its no different in ESO as well.

I have seen so many streamers open crates and their odds of getting things is just way too good compared to the rest of us. They constantly get the extra card many times while opening 15 crates. Also get tons of purple and gold drops. Usually always get a mount of some quality. Seen often more than 1 mount.

Donny_Vito

Next time you see popular streamers open a bunch of crown crates ...

You may want to consider what you're actually doing with your life.

therift

To be fair, this video rests on a statement made by a participant who runs some sort of 'streamer management' company. This person initially claimed loot box shilling was a common practice, but when asked for clarification, this person backed waaaay off and said he only heard it mentioned once in a room he was in.

Could loot boxes be fixed for promotional purposes? Sure. Could it have happened? Sure. But the person at the panel who made the statement gives varying statements and is clearly unreliable. Yet here we have an 18 minute video covering another video that covered a public panel in which a questionable statement was made once.

Incidentally, there are regulations requiring streamers to disclosure gratuities received from the publishers whose products they review. This doesn't seem to be something the streamer community is aware of. I wonder if the 'streamer management company' guy realized he was putting himself at risk for investigation, and that's why later on he recanted nearly all of his original claim.

Rake

Im really in awe I didnt get a single dot from my crown crate

Vlad9425

Didn’t know there was such a thing as popular ESO streamers.

Nemesis7884

what is really surprising for me is that in every other industry these kind of practices are outlawed and will immediately result in huge backlash from the media that are pro consumer and anti corporation

In the games industry its exactly the opposite and if players complain they get also *** on by games journalists calling them trolls, bigots, haters etc.

Carbonised

therift wrote: »

To be fair, this video rests on a statement made by a participant who runs some sort of 'streamer management' company. This person initially claimed loot box shilling was a common practice, but when asked for clarification, this person backed waaaay off and said he only heard it mentioned once in a room he was in.

Could loot boxes be fixed for promotional purposes? Sure. Could it have happened? Sure. But the person at the panel who made the statement gives varying statements and is clearly unreliable. Yet here we have an 18 minute video covering another video that covered a public panel in which a questionable statement was made once.

Incidentally, there are regulations requiring streamers to disclosure gratuities received from the publishers whose products they review. This doesn't seem to be something the streamer community is aware of. I wonder if the 'streamer management company' guy realized he was putting himself at risk for investigation, and that's why later on he recanted nearly all of his original claim.

It's not "some guy running some sort of streamer company". Considering that they have Angry Joe on board, pretty much one of the largest gamer review channels on YT, you can rest assured that they're someone in the business, not just anyone.

You're correct that there are laws in place to make sure that 'influencers' disclose any form of promoted of sponsored content, to make sure their audience is aware that they are basically watching a commercial or an advertisement. You should also mention, however, that these laws are continually being broken by a large portion of the 'influencers', who deliberately mislead their audience, and who get away with it for the most part.

Also you're confusing the message, apparently. He said that bribing/paying/hiring 'influencers' to do subverted and hidden commercials to their audience is commonplace. Of course it is, it happens all the time outside the gaming business as well. he then added that deliberately tweaking the odds for the streamer he heard of once himself, though with the exposed lack of any moral standards at all in the gaming industry these days, you can rest assured that it has happened elsewhere too.

buttaface

therift wrote: »

To be fair, this video rests on a statement made by a participant who runs some sort of 'streamer management' company. This person initially claimed loot box shilling was a common practice, but when asked for clarification, this person backed waaaay off and said he only heard it mentioned once in a room he was in.

This could be because the claim is unevidenced, or as a result of pressure/threats from an industry that has complete access to the legal system in its favor, but almost no regulatory or civil remedies against it. I don't know which.

Not a fan of the hyper regulatory/litigation state we "enjoy" these days, that adds 10-20% to all consumer costs of goods and services, but the time for -some- rational regulation of many internet companies and practices is way overdue, particularly in antitrust and consumer protection.

The problem with remedying the -many- sharp business practices of gaming companies is proving damages to fact finders who will not be responsive to or impressed by claims about magic swords, etc.

Carbonised

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

what is really surprising for me is that in every other industry these kind of practices are outlawed and will immediately result in huge backlash from the media that are pro consumer and anti corporation

In the games industry its exactly the opposite and if players complain they get also *** on by games journalists calling them trolls, bigots, haters etc.

The gaming press is extremely toothless and in bed with the gaming industry. You pretty much have to turn to independent creators like YongYea and Jim Sterling to get the truth revealed about how these companies conduct themselves.

You're right that in any other industry, no one would have stood for this. My guess is that gaming is still considered niche and geekdom and irrelevant by the mainstream media, so they don't really have any interest in what's going on in that business at all, except of course when politicians need a convenient scapegoat to blame for their ineptitude at gun and violence control.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

Honestly haven't watched a streamer open any since...2016.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLxTxh6l8eI

rpa

I've seen exactly one.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=gLxTxh6l8eI

Edit: Spoiler it's the same as the video in post above. Happens sometimes.

AhPook_Is_Here

I think that's an ethical practice, it's cinema verite, creating an authentic synthetic moment. How boring would it be to watch a streamer with luckfail for 30 min? Can't get excited about that!

Carbonised

It's not cheating and lying and manipulating customers. It's "surprise changing the odds in favour of streamers"

Carbonised

rpa wrote: »

I've seen exactly one.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=gLxTxh6l8eI

Actually going to youtube and typing in "eso crown crate opening" revealed a plethora of videos showcasing just that, hundreds and hundreds of crates being opened for hundreds of dollars.

Several of these channels also are in the "ESO stream team" and thus in an official business relationship with ZOS. It would be naive to think that these videos and crates aren't being sponsored by ZOS.

Bet you'd find the same thing going on at Twitch.

TelvanniWizard

Scam crates have always been a scam. Nothing new...

rpa

Carbonised wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

I've seen exactly one.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=gLxTxh6l8eI

Actually going to youtube and typing in "eso crown crate opening" revealed a plethora of videos showcasing just that, hundreds and hundreds of crates being opened for hundreds of dollars.

Several of these channels also are in the "ESO stream team" and thus in an official business relationship with ZOS. It would be naive to think that these videos and crates aren't being sponsored by ZOS.

Bet you'd find the same thing going on at Twitch.

Sorry for confusion: I ment I've watched exactly one. And that one happens to be one to recommend.

Zer0_CooL

Lootboxes? You mean surprise mechanics?!

therift

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

what is really surprising for me is that in every other industry these kind of practices are outlawed and will immediately result in huge backlash from the media that are pro consumer and anti corporation

In the games industry its exactly the opposite and if players complain they get also *** on by games journalists calling them trolls, bigots, haters etc.

You are correct, in a sense, that certain practices of endorsements are regulated. Bloggers ( this includes video 'streamers') are required to clearly disclose the fact that have received compensation, even if the compensation is in the form of products. The Federal Trade Commission has published a host of materials on the subject.

For example, if a streamer receives a package of loot boxes to open for her audience, she must clearly disclose the fact. If the product is not the same as provided to consumers, that fact must be clearly disclosed along with the difference between the promotional product and the version of the product that is provided to consumers. It's perfectly fine if 'rigged' loot boxes are used, as long as the disclosures are made.

'Clearly disclosed' is spelled out in detail by the Feds. The intent of the disclosures is to make clear to the blogger/streamer audience that the blogger/streamer has been compensated by the product provider so the audience is aware of the divided loyalties, especially in cases where the demonstration product varies from the actual product. This is something the endorser must handle very carefully to avoid falling under certain sections of the Federal Unfair Trade and Deceptive Practices Act, state variations of the Act, as well as similar laws in other jurisdictions... especially the E.U.

In practice, my observation is that many streamers are ignorant of their obligations to disclose endorsement compensation. I suspect the reason why the story about 'loot box shilling' changed is that the person who made the statement realized that he was essentially admitting to complicity via his 'streamer management' company. It is rarely wise to make unsubstantiated claims before a regulatory commission when one's own house is not in order.

This issue gets to the heart of the reason why the Federal Trade Commission is investigating certain practices in the video game industry. It's not just the loot box mechanism, but also the marketing practices and incestuous relationship between publishers and streamers that must be examined.

Edit: Added link to relevant FTC material for streamers:
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/business-blog/2017/04/influencers-are-your-materialconnection-disclosures

No_Division

CipherNine wrote: »

It's always been obvious how streamers have special benefits in games with lootboxes.I think its no different in ESO as well.

I have seen so many streamers open crates and their odds of getting things is just way too good compared to the rest of us. They constantly get the extra card many times while opening 15 crates. Also get tons of purple and gold drops. Usually always get a mount of some quality. Seen often more than 1 mount.

while might be true, I recently watched blobs open his free crown crate and the entire time he was saying "heres more poisons, and more poisons" while getting poisons lol.

Donny_Vito

No_Division wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

It's always been obvious how streamers have special benefits in games with lootboxes.I think its no different in ESO as well.

I have seen so many streamers open crates and their odds of getting things is just way too good compared to the rest of us. They constantly get the extra card many times while opening 15 crates. Also get tons of purple and gold drops. Usually always get a mount of some quality. Seen often more than 1 mount.

while might be true, I recently watched blobs open his free crown crate and the entire time he was saying "heres more poisons, and more poisons" while getting poisons lol.

There might be a difference between opening the free twitch crown crate (or daily rewards) while streaming versus having a dedicated time where he streams himself opening 30+ loot boxes after a new version is released to the Crown Store.

Tommy_The_Gun

I also highly suggest to watch this. This should be literally the "un-skipable" intro when you boot up the game that has microtransactions for the 1st time after you install it... :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4

Odovacar

PAWS

rotaugen454

I’ve seen Alcast open a bunch of crates and get nothing but junk. He even talked about that.

Kiralyn2000

...I will never understand this "watching streamers & caring about it/being influenced by them" thing. Guess I'm officially an 'old'.

Carbonised

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I also highly suggest to watch this. This should be literally the "un-skipable" intro when you boot up the game that has microtransactions for the 1st time after you install it... :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4

Daniel Kahneman would be turning in his grave seeing his research being abused in this way. Well, if he were dead, that is.

I highly suggest people go read his book Thinking Fast and Slow, the book which is also referenced several times in that video, to at least be enlightened enough to see all these manipulative ploys when they're being used against us.

I also suggest reading Martin Lindstrøm, especially such books as Buyology and Brandwashed, which give an insider's view into several shady and scummy business practices that are commonplace.

zaria

https://www.crowncrates.com/
this give the odds out of an decent data set.

Carbonised

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

...I will never understand this "watching streamers & caring about it/being influenced by them" thing. Guess I'm officially an 'old'.

Well you and me both. I'm a gamer, not audience. The last time I watched someone "stream" was back in the 90's when my friend and I took turns watching each other play Final Fantasy on the SNES.

But the videos, the popular streaming channels, and the money they rake in is evidence enough that this is big business. I mean, just look at the popular Fortnite streamers who live a life of super celebrities like football or rock stars. Sure ESO streaming is on a smaller scale (luckily), but the community team still focuses a lot of attention and resources towards the streamers, for obvious reasons.

FENGRUSH

Sorry but the stream team folks aren't getting any rigged box loots. This is definitely a bad practice in the gaming industry though by some companies.

Carbonised

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Sorry but the stream team folks aren't getting any rigged box loots. This is definitely a bad practice in the gaming industry though by some companies.

Do they get hundreds of non-rigged loot boxes to open while streaming, however, is the interesting question here. And if they do, do the follow the required regulations to disclose the sponsored items they received?

therift

Carbonised wrote: »

therift wrote: »

To be fair, this video rests on a statement made by a participant who runs some sort of 'streamer management' company. This person initially claimed loot box shilling was a common practice, but when asked for clarification, this person backed waaaay off and said he only heard it mentioned once in a room he was in.

Could loot boxes be fixed for promotional purposes? Sure. Could it have happened? Sure. But the person at the panel who made the statement gives varying statements and is clearly unreliable. Yet here we have an 18 minute video covering another video that covered a public panel in which a questionable statement was made once.

Incidentally, there are regulations requiring streamers to disclosure gratuities received from the publishers whose products they review. This doesn't seem to be something the streamer community is aware of. I wonder if the 'streamer management company' guy realized he was putting himself at risk for investigation, and that's why later on he recanted nearly all of his original claim.

It's not "some guy running some sort of streamer company". Considering that they have Angry Joe on board, pretty much one of the largest gamer review channels on YT, you can rest assured that they're someone in the business, not just anyone.

You're correct that there are laws in place to make sure that 'influencers' disclose any form of promoted of sponsored content, to make sure their audience is aware that they are basically watching a commercial or an advertisement. You should also mention, however, that these laws are continually being broken by a large portion of the 'influencers', who deliberately mislead their audience, and who get away with it for the most part.

Also you're confusing the message, apparently. He said that bribing/paying/hiring 'influencers' to do subverted and hidden commercials to their audience is commonplace. Of course it is, it happens all the time outside the gaming business as well. he then added that deliberately tweaking the odds for the streamer he heard of once himself, though with the exposed lack of any moral standards at all in the gaming industry these days, you can rest assured that it has happened elsewhere too.

1) I wanted to avoid naming the streamer management entity. My description also conveys my disdain.

2) There is no confusion. Many streamers are ignorant of their obligations for disclosure. The fact that video game players are unaware that some of the streams they watch are essentially paid advertising does not condemn the industry as much as it illuminates the problems created by streamers' ignorance.

3) Endorser disclosure requirements are not 'laws that are broken'. They are guidelines drawn from FTC commentary and opinion. The FTC itself states violation of the Endorser Guidelines will not result in civil action. It may, however, result in investigation and enforcement under the UT&DP Act.

A good example of how the FTC may proceed can be found under the enforcement action the Feds took against Warner Bros for paid endorsements to promote Shadow of Mordor, which rested largely on inadequate disclosure. The fact that the streamers followed Warner Bros' instructions on disclosures is probably why shills like PewDiePie weren't included in the enforcement action. Yet let all streamers beware this was a special circumstance.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2016/07/warner-bros-settles-ftc-charges-it-failed-adequately-disclose-it

The ultimate lesson is that if you set yourself up as a streamer, you should be aware of what constitutes compensation for endorsement and the attendant obligations arising from consumer protection laws.