Does ZOS's combat team understand in game mechanics better than the best pve'rs and pvp'ers

Ayastigi

No they do not (ZOS combat team can't complete eso's hardest content after all)

Joy_Division wrote: »

They play and they know the game.

The problem is that their visions and ideas are often questionable and they don't ask if something might be a bad idea *before* they waste resources and time implementing them.

So it takes them 1 year to implement something that should take 3-4 months had most people been on the same page huh?

Nemesis7884

No they do not (ZOS combat team can't complete eso's hardest content after all)

i have never seen a game / mmo with so many so frequent so significant ramdom all over the place radical changes to skills as eso...so no not a good sign

Ashtaris

I didn’t vote because I didn’t feel there were enough options. I was a big fan of Gilliam when he was a streamer and watched his videos all the time. The guy was smart, and knew the combat math and mechanics inside and out. That’s why ZOS hired him. So I’m sure he is bringing much of his expertise to the team. Wheeler I don’t know that much about except his previous role as the PVP lead before he took charge of Combat.

I don’t like some of the changes coming up in the next update, much of it motivated by Brian and his PVP baggage he brought with him, at the expense of many of us who enjoy PVE. Now since Gilliam is Brian’s subordinate, I’m sure he does the “Yes Boss” and takes orders just like many of us do in our jobs. However, I’m not sure he necessarily agrees with all the changes that are taking place. We may never know that, but hopefully he still cares about the PVE side of the game.

Tommy_The_Gun

(Other)

I think the problem here is slightly different. ZOS knows the mechanics, because they have designed them. The problem here imho is lack of proper "point of view". You see, game devs look at the game from their perspective. Not from the player (user) perspective, but from the creator (admin ?) perspective. So it is EXTREEMLY narrow point of view. People have hoped that this will change when Gilliamtherogue (eso player) joined ZOS, but that did not happened.
I have heard a story from a friend who is a game dev. During the play-testing players asked about game controlls.
Player: How do I move ?
Dev: You use W S A D as your movement keys.
Player: Ok, thanks.

After maybe 30 min:
Player: Ok, I have tried to open inventory, tried every key on the keyboard, none of them worked.
Dev: Open Inventory ? That is simple. You press Alt & O.
Players Whaaaaaaat ?

You see, some things may be self-explanatory to the devs, but players have no clue about it. We recently had a good example of that as ZOS used a term "kiss-curse" in the PTS patch notes, which only caused convusion as very little players knew what it ment.

In short, the problem is caused by lack of proper play-testing. PTS is the only play-testing we have. It is mostly end-game min-maxers (PvE & PvP) who test stuff on PTS, to find out what is the best and what is the new "meta". Majority of players, who either play solo or are simply not that hard-core are left alone to themselfs. It happens every time on PTS. 90% of feedback is being ignored. And I am not saying like "nerf this or buff this because it kills me" kind of feedback. I am talking about well posted and though out pain-points with some quality, resonable solution ideas. You could saw that on PTS forums. Take Onslaught for example. Strong Ulti got buffed to the "OP" level and ppl defended it. Why ? Because ppl min-max and they already plan to use it in their build.
The other side of the spectrum is Werewolf. They were simply not vocal enaugh. No joke here, there was maybe like 8 - 10 people in totall on forums concerned about the changes. Which if you think about it, it simple goes to show how WW is unpopular and niche on live server. So their feedback got ignored.

Btw. Sorry for the long post

BaiterOfZergs

It’s kind of an unfair question to be honest. I’m pretty sure they know about their mechanics. Now whether they can compete with the best of the best is another topic. But I will say devs usually suck compared to the best of the best players.

Ayastigi

No they do not (ZOS combat team can't complete eso's hardest content after all)

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

(Other)

I think the problem here is slightly different. ZOS knows the mechanics, because they have designed them. The problem here imho is lack of proper "point of view". You see, game devs look at the game from their perspective. Not from the player (user) perspective, but from the creator (admin ?) perspective. So it is EXTREEMLY narrow point of view. People have hoped that this will change when Gilliamtherogue (eso player) joined ZOS, but that did not happened.
I have heard a story from a friend who is a game dev. During the play-testing players asked about game controlls.
Player: How do I move ?
Dev: You use W S A D as your movement keys.
Player: Ok, thanks.

After maybe 30 min:
Player: Ok, I have tried to open inventory, tried every key on the keyboard, none of them worked.
Dev: Open Inventory ? That is simple. You press Alt & O.
Players Whaaaaaaat ?

You see, some things may be self-explanatory to the devs, but players have no clue about it. We recently had a good example of that as ZOS used a term "kiss-curse" in the PTS patch notes, which only caused convusion as very little players knew what it ment.

In short, the problem is caused by lack of proper play-testing. PTS is the only play-testing we have. It is mostly end-game min-maxers (PvE & PvP) who test stuff on PTS, to find out what is the best and what is the new "meta". Majority of players, who either play solo or are simply not that hard-core are left alone to themselfs. It happens every time on PTS. 90% of feedback is being ignored. And I am not saying like "nerf this or buff this because it kills me" kind of feedback. I am talking about well posted and though out pain-points with some quality, resonable solution ideas. You could saw that on PTS forums. Take Onslaught for example. Strong Ulti got buffed to the "OP" level and ppl defended it. Why ? Because ppl min-max and they already plan to use it in their build.
The other side of the spectrum is Werewolf. They were simply not vocal enaugh. No joke here, there was maybe like 8 - 10 people in totall on forums concerned about the changes. Which if you think about it, it simple goes to show how WW is unpopular and niche on live server. So their feedback got ignored.

Btw. Sorry for the long post

Np, many great points I hadn't thought of presented here.

dennissomb16_ESO

Yes they do (they are the combat team after all)

I think they understand it far better then everyone gives them credit for. I think they understand it better on a much larger scale and the effects of the entire ESO player base vs just the spectrum of the top players. Every MMO has a base of top players who excel but that group is usually a very small percentage of the overall population.

ZOS has to make decisions for the entire player base not just the very small percentage of top players. From a simple point of view, none of us like a change that effects our favorite class even slightly negative.

KerinKor

Yes they do (they are the combat team after all)

Of course they KNOW them better than the min/maxers who provide endless spreadsheets showing umpteen decimal places .. which is why they're nerfing the OPness many whining about this patch are going to lose.

Korah_Eaglecry

This is like asking if an engineer working for Ford knows the mechanics of a mustang better than a race car driver.

Luigi_Vampa

I'm sure they understand it all better on a technical and mechanical level. They have way more data than we have to work with. Are they better at playing and using everything to their advantage, probably not. I doubt any devs play this game as much as many of us do. After a work day of working on a game I doubt they want to go home and play it for another 8 hrs.

idk

Kalante wrote: »

for what is worth theres guilliam and he isn't doing a good job so far.

To be fair to Gil, this game is run by Matt and nothing of any significance happens without Matt's say so. They all work within the so called vision Matt has for the game. That is not even getting into Gil is not the primary combat person.

Take that a step further, pretty sure Gil has not done anything major since he took the job. Do not think he has cleared any of the trials added since on vet HM, or even vet.. He is no longer in tune with the game.

Suddwrath

Yes they do (they are the combat team after all)

As others have previously mentioned, the combat team absolutely understands the mechanics better than the playerbase (they are the ones who designed those mechanics in the first place afterall). However, how a dev approaches a mechanic vs how a player approaches a mechanic are usually from 2 different perspectives: When talking about balance and combat, a dev will typically approach it from a "spreadsheet perspective" whereas a player will typically approach it from a "feeling perspective".

What I mean by that is since the devs have access to the actual data and code it gives them a lot of numbers to work with when balancing combat. So when attempting to address an issue, it can be easy for them to view it from the numbers perspective ("what looks good on a spreadsheet"). When it comes to the players, we are limited with the amount of data that we have access to. Numbers can be determined via theorycrafting, testing, logging, etc, but we don't have access to the underlying data/code that the devs have. So it is easier for players to approach an issue with a feeling perspective ("this class feels powerful", "this skill feels responsive", "this mechanic feels clunky", etc).

So oftentimes what you'll see is players bringing up suggestions, pain points, complaints, etc. from the perspective of how the combat feels. But when the devs go in to address the issue, they often do it from a numbers perspective. Maybe the change sounded really good on a spreadsheet, but then when it's implemented the players aren't receptive to it because of how it feels in game.

The devs definitely understand the mechanics of combat when making adjustments, but where the player frustration usually comes from is how those adjustments feel in game. An adjustment to a class/skill/mechanic can make perfect sense on a spreadsheet, but if it isn't fun to play or doesn't feel good in game then players most likely aren't going to be happy with it.

It's ultimately about finding the balance between numbers and game-feel. While things might not feel balanced right now with the ongoing skill audits, I believe that after the devs have finished with the audits it will be easier for them to make adjustments to combat and address how certain things feel in game.

SassiestAssassin

I think they understand their version of the game. I don’t think they have the practical knowledge of putting hours and hours in playtime in multiple classes and roles, in PvE and PvP, and at low and high levels.

Why else would they suggest a more defensive play style in PvE, where some vet mechanics can oneshot even tanks?
And do they think DoTs and HoTs make for fun, quick-paced gameplay?
Why make a patch that completely changes the character’s toolbox and save adjusting content for a later patch?

They may have a plan, but the implementation is bad for players.

p00tx

No they do not (ZOS combat team can't complete eso's hardest content after all)

Imagine this hypothetical scenario:

I invent the hammer, and only I understand the physics of how a hammer should function, based on the concept of a fulcrum and applied force. Others may also come to understand it over time, but I created it, so I maintain the deepest understanding of it. Now, I decide to hand off the manufacturing and care of the hammer to another who loves and uses the hammer daily. This person has a deep working knowledge of how this hammer might be used. People all over the world use this tool, and for a myriad of reasons.

Now imagine a very VERY small group of people come to the person I've given stewardship of my hammer design to, and they tell my protege that they actually prefer to use the hammer for punching holes in things, but it would be way better if the head of the hammer were actually conal, rather than blunt, which is the shape that makes it such a practical and useful tool for so many. Maybe my protege shares something in common with this very small group of people, so they agree to shift the shape of my hammer to suit this group, and this applies to EVERY hammer ever made, rather than just the hammers made for the new group. Now, everyone who uses this hammer for things like Carpentry and furniture making are left with a tool that, while not entirely impossible to use, has become impractical to the point of being nearly unusable by all but the very most talented hammer wielders in the world.

Now, my protege didn't see the changes being a problem because they're not a carpenter. They're just a big fan of the hammer and used it extensively once upon a time, and they've taken the time to learn how the hammer itself functions. What my protege failed to understand is that a tool is not a tool in a vacuum. It is only a tool when it has a purpose and when that purpose serves a function for the user. My protege became too focused on one tiny potential usage of the tool, and forgot how many others use it in its current form, and in his ignorance, rendered my creation useless for all but a select few.

TLDR; Zos may understand their game from a very narrow mechanical standpoint, but they don't understand how it's being used in its current iteration, and that is the only thing that really matters.

Jhalin

There is one big rule in level design that ZOS often breaks. “If you can’t complete the challenge you created, then you cannot expect players to complete it.”

The have, at best, a mediocre theoretical view of the game’s combat systems. In actuality, I doubt more than a handful of people on the combat team have ever cleared the vet HMs of the content they been pushing out lately. Barely any practical knowledge means they’re not qualified to be making these sort of sweeping changes, because in general the combat teams lacks any insight into the effects of their wild and nonsensical balance changes every couple months.

p00tx

No they do not (ZOS combat team can't complete eso's hardest content after all)

Jhalin wrote: »

There is one big rule in level design that ZOS often breaks. “If you can’t complete the challenge you created, then you cannot expect players to complete it.”

The have, at best, a mediocre theoretical view of the game’s combat systems. In actuality, I doubt more than a handful of people on the combat team have ever cleared the vet HMs of the content they been pushing out lately. Barely any practical knowledge means they’re not qualified to be making these sort of sweeping changes, because in general the combat teams lacks any insight into the effects of their wild and nonsensical balance changes every couple months.

I think that's a big part of the problem with the whole community right now too. There are so few of us actually doing the hm content in this game, that there aren't enough advocates for us when these bad changes come through. The rest of the community is scoffing and telling us to "git gud" when they have no idea what we're even talkiing about because they've never even attempted a HM DLC, let alone successfully completed one.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

No they do not (ZOS combat team can't complete eso's hardest content after all)

Pallio wrote: »

It always seems like their job is to get people to quit ESO.

Then they are succeeding admirably.


All The Best

Aldrik41

No they do not (ZOS combat team can't complete eso's hardest content after all)

In my subjective opinion, “zos balancing team” and “Understands” in this game are different things, such as hippo and coffee, one does not know about the existence of the other.
The only thing the zos understands is that this community can be milked and fed with promises endlessly.

max_only

The problem is that when you play it on the computer that made it, in a test environment without an ISP between you and your commands, you tend to forget to design things around a realistic expectation. This is why they come out with “left foot right foot hokey-pokey” dungeons, people test them and tell them it’s crazy, and then they make adjustments.