The role of healer needs a rework

Fawn4287
Fawn4287
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Patch after patch the community complains about the lack of need for a dedicated healer in most PvE content and how the ultra easy, cut and paste lack of variety play style of the role feels boring and unnecessary, however in the games PvP a dedicated healer is beyond overpowered, giving an almost thumbless group unparalleled levels of survivability and and allowing for other other roles to take on a much more diverse gear set up and play style. I would say on average a 2 man group comprised of 1 healer and 1 DPS far outperforms a 3 man of DPS builds.

A lack of a cooldown on resurrection interruption and skill like guard cause a tank/healer hybrid to outperform any other build in terms of group utility. Previously sets like earthgore and now sets like troll king and nightflame also give insane levels of passive off healing on top, making some groups unkillable without the use of siege. Coupled with the changes to Vigor, it seems that next update the group dedicated healer will become more prominent than ever, causing the annoying tank meta to transition in to the annoying healer meta and cause the same if not worse stale slow paced fighting style PvP has become.
  • Sacredx
    Sacredx
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    You should probably mention what you would like to see in term of rework. Otherwise it's just an observation.
    PC NA PvP Oceanic
    The Kelly Gang [TKG]
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  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    Rework slimecraw and give minor berserk more damage buff, maybe 15%, but thats a pve option
    Edited by zvavi on July 31, 2019 9:11AM
  • Rungar
    Rungar
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    healers dont need a rework. Any healer can do dmg and heal just fine at the same time. Even easier now with 12 second healing springs and slow orbs.

    eso is currently a dps centric game and the healer role just became caught up in that and thus has to adapt to do damage first and healing second.

    aka healer = support dps. They should just call it that.

    the problem isnt so much healers design but the fact that dungeons design is lackluster ( not the art guys, your great). Everything is centered around boss fights, dps and evasion of mechanics... the raid model infection. The farther it goes the worse it gets. Soon theyll find a way to eliminate tanks.

    is it really a surprise?

  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    an attempt to satisfy a group of crybabies who, truth be told, will never be happy because there is absolutely NOTHING Zos can do to make dying in PVP feel fun or satisfying.

    What about balancing pvp and pve separately?
  • Fawn4287
    Fawn4287
    ✭✭✭
    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    Patch after patch the community complains about the lack of need for a dedicated healer in most PvE content and how the ultra easy, cut and paste lack of variety play style of the role feels boring and unnecessary, however in the games PvP a dedicated healer is beyond overpowered, giving an almost thumbless group unparalleled levels of survivability and and allowing for other other roles to take on a much more diverse gear set up and play style. I would say on average a 2 man group comprised of 1 healer and 1 DPS far outperforms a 3 man of DPS builds.

    A lack of a cooldown on resurrection interruption and skill like guard cause a tank/healer hybrid to outperform any other build in terms of group utility. Previously sets like earthgore and now sets like troll king and nightflame also give insane levels of passive off healing on top, making some groups unkillable without the use of siege. Coupled with the changes to Vigor, it seems that next update the group dedicated healer will become more prominent than ever, causing the annoying tank meta to transition in to the annoying healer meta and cause the same if not worse stale slow paced fighting style PvP has become.

    Let me ask you this OP: do you believe healers have ANY place at all in PVP? I pose that question to you honestly and I hope you think about it carefully before you answer it.

    Because what you - and many others on this forum - are complaining about here is that healers are keeping people alive in PVP - which is precisely their role in the game! If a healer cannot keep people alive in any phase, be it PVP or PVE, then there is precisely ZERO point in having a healer at all because a healer who cannot keep people upright is not performing their primary function. Also consider that because healing is already reduced in PVP environments, any changes to healers in PVP will further erode their ability to do their job in the PVE environment - in a game that is primarily a PVE game.

    I don't believe this is a matter of healers overperforming. I think this is a matter of PVP players not liking or not being willing to accept that healers have a place in PVP. Its a matter of healers doing their jobs in a group combat environment and peoples frustrations boiling over. But that doesn't necessarily mean that healers need to be changed.

    Furthermore, I hate seeing posts say that any potato with two thumbs can spam healing springs and keep a group upright. I think that is a SLIGHT exaggeration (I've played a healer in PVP in big groups so I know how it plays out), as it only really works out that way if people stay tightly balled on the healers and you have multiple healers laying down AOE heals - which mostly only happens when you are fighting in keeps. If you engage these groups in the open - which is what coordinated groups should do - then the DPS get spread out, the healing gets spread thin, and even a group carrying multiple healers can be wiped.

    Secondly, spring spammers are mediocre healers. ANYONE can do that, assuming they have enough sustain. That part is true, but GOOD healers, particularly in PVP environments won't simply spam springs. THey'll throw in abilities that add damage wards to their allies, damage buffs, and purge often to ensure that the damage buff/debuff ratio is always in your favor, ensuring that you have higher odds of winning the encounter. That is where the true skill lies with a healer - being able to multitask. And far fewer people can actually do that well.

    Overall, IMO, I think people are mainly complaining about healers because people have recently discovered that healers have use and utility in a PVP environment - and you have a lot of people who are frustrated and unwilling to accept that as a reality - so they do the only thing they are capable of doing: cry for nerfs.

    I've seen this mentality that the game needs to be balanced around PVP erode and destroy another fun game I heavily invested in - Destiny. And I do NOT want to see Zos make the same exact mistakes that Bungie made with that game. Zos needs to take a hard look at Y1 of Destiny 2 and decide if that is what they want for this game, because this game is going down that same exact path in an attempt to satisfy a group of crybabies who, truth be told, will never be happy because there is absolutely NOTHING Zos can do to make dying in PVP feel fun or satisfying.

    So I can thank you for keeping the zerg alive, making PvP a punish and maintaining my solid <10 fps in cyrodil
  • BXR_Lonestar
    BXR_Lonestar
    ✭✭
    zvavi wrote: »
    an attempt to satisfy a group of crybabies who, truth be told, will never be happy because there is absolutely NOTHING Zos can do to make dying in PVP feel fun or satisfying.

    What about balancing pvp and pve separately?

    That would be great - IF they were willing to do it. It was an issue in Destiny from basically Day 1 and people on that game ALSO cried for a separation of PVE and PVP balancing. But there are a number of reasons as to why it probably wont happen. In no particular order:

    1. People like having skills and armor sets perform similarly across both modes because it lets them know what to expect from their builds and lowers the learning curve for cross-play in both modes.

    2. Having skill commonality reduces the burden on Devs in general because they don't need to effectively design one set of skills for each skill branch for PVE and the other set for PVP. Throw in morphs in there and task of trying to create PVE/PVP versions of every skill becomes an overwhelming task.

    3. Fully separating the modes effectively requires the Devs to build two separate games. So if full separation happened, you would have not only different skills used only for PVP, but you would also need different armor sets used only for PVP as well. That kind of effort is simply not going to happen when PVP is not THE focus of the game.

    Overall, PVP is just an added activity for you to do to break up the monotony of PVE play. It is not THE central focus of the game, nor should it be the central driving focus for the remainder of the game. People need to accept that games that allow you to have power progression in one mode cannot be balanced on a 1:1 basis if those same characters using the same abilities and armor, etc. are taken into a PVP environment. This is why I think their balancing approach is going in such a bad direction for the game. They should be looking at making hard counters rather than looking to balance the game.

    A few examples? If stun-lock/cc-lock is an issue, give a couple of classes the ability to ignore stun/cc through a unique class-only armor set so those few classes have something in their toolkit that serves as a hard counter to that kind of play style.

    Healing an issue? Make one mag class have a silence ability and buff snipe damage so that some classes have the ability to try to single out and negate the healer in general.

    That should be their balancing approach, but I don't see them doing that. I just see them making changes that will effectively eliminate a particular role in the game, which, again, is a huge mistake.
  • BXR_Lonestar
    BXR_Lonestar
    ✭✭
    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    Patch after patch the community complains about the lack of need for a dedicated healer in most PvE content and how the ultra easy, cut and paste lack of variety play style of the role feels boring and unnecessary, however in the games PvP a dedicated healer is beyond overpowered, giving an almost thumbless group unparalleled levels of survivability and and allowing for other other roles to take on a much more diverse gear set up and play style. I would say on average a 2 man group comprised of 1 healer and 1 DPS far outperforms a 3 man of DPS builds.

    A lack of a cooldown on resurrection interruption and skill like guard cause a tank/healer hybrid to outperform any other build in terms of group utility. Previously sets like earthgore and now sets like troll king and nightflame also give insane levels of passive off healing on top, making some groups unkillable without the use of siege. Coupled with the changes to Vigor, it seems that next update the group dedicated healer will become more prominent than ever, causing the annoying tank meta to transition in to the annoying healer meta and cause the same if not worse stale slow paced fighting style PvP has become.

    Let me ask you this OP: do you believe healers have ANY place at all in PVP? I pose that question to you honestly and I hope you think about it carefully before you answer it.

    Because what you - and many others on this forum - are complaining about here is that healers are keeping people alive in PVP - which is precisely their role in the game! If a healer cannot keep people alive in any phase, be it PVP or PVE, then there is precisely ZERO point in having a healer at all because a healer who cannot keep people upright is not performing their primary function. Also consider that because healing is already reduced in PVP environments, any changes to healers in PVP will further erode their ability to do their job in the PVE environment - in a game that is primarily a PVE game.

    I don't believe this is a matter of healers overperforming. I think this is a matter of PVP players not liking or not being willing to accept that healers have a place in PVP. Its a matter of healers doing their jobs in a group combat environment and peoples frustrations boiling over. But that doesn't necessarily mean that healers need to be changed.

    Furthermore, I hate seeing posts say that any potato with two thumbs can spam healing springs and keep a group upright. I think that is a SLIGHT exaggeration (I've played a healer in PVP in big groups so I know how it plays out), as it only really works out that way if people stay tightly balled on the healers and you have multiple healers laying down AOE heals - which mostly only happens when you are fighting in keeps. If you engage these groups in the open - which is what coordinated groups should do - then the DPS get spread out, the healing gets spread thin, and even a group carrying multiple healers can be wiped.

    Secondly, spring spammers are mediocre healers. ANYONE can do that, assuming they have enough sustain. That part is true, but GOOD healers, particularly in PVP environments won't simply spam springs. THey'll throw in abilities that add damage wards to their allies, damage buffs, and purge often to ensure that the damage buff/debuff ratio is always in your favor, ensuring that you have higher odds of winning the encounter. That is where the true skill lies with a healer - being able to multitask. And far fewer people can actually do that well.

    Overall, IMO, I think people are mainly complaining about healers because people have recently discovered that healers have use and utility in a PVP environment - and you have a lot of people who are frustrated and unwilling to accept that as a reality - so they do the only thing they are capable of doing: cry for nerfs.

    I've seen this mentality that the game needs to be balanced around PVP erode and destroy another fun game I heavily invested in - Destiny. And I do NOT want to see Zos make the same exact mistakes that Bungie made with that game. Zos needs to take a hard look at Y1 of Destiny 2 and decide if that is what they want for this game, because this game is going down that same exact path in an attempt to satisfy a group of crybabies who, truth be told, will never be happy because there is absolutely NOTHING Zos can do to make dying in PVP feel fun or satisfying.

    So I can thank you for keeping the zerg alive, making PvP a punish and maintaining my solid <10 fps in cyrodil

    1. Framerate may be a platform issue or a server issue. I don't think that is justification for nerfing one single class into irrelevancy. Let me respond to that by posing a question of my own - would it be permissible for Zos to nerf ALL AOE/DOT damage effects so that DPS only have direct damage, heavy and light attacks in order to reduce frame rate strain on the server or gaming platform? DPS wouldn't stand for that (nor should they!) and so why is it okay here?

    2. Nothing is wrong with "zerging." Cyrodil is a large scale battleground that features large groups fighting other groups. That is what makes it have its own separate appeal over battlegrounds. It's ESO's version of "big team" or "Battle royal." If you don't like zergs, then play battlegrounds. For a player like myself, there is nothing more fun than running with a zerg, laying siege to castles, and engaging other big groups in all out war. Its a ton of fun and chaos.
  • BXR_Lonestar
    BXR_Lonestar
    ✭✭
    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    Patch after patch the community complains about the lack of need for a dedicated healer in most PvE content and how the ultra easy, cut and paste lack of variety play style of the role feels boring and unnecessary, however in the games PvP a dedicated healer is beyond overpowered, giving an almost thumbless group unparalleled levels of survivability and and allowing for other other roles to take on a much more diverse gear set up and play style. I would say on average a 2 man group comprised of 1 healer and 1 DPS far outperforms a 3 man of DPS builds.

    A lack of a cooldown on resurrection interruption and skill like guard cause a tank/healer hybrid to outperform any other build in terms of group utility. Previously sets like earthgore and now sets like troll king and nightflame also give insane levels of passive off healing on top, making some groups unkillable without the use of siege. Coupled with the changes to Vigor, it seems that next update the group dedicated healer will become more prominent than ever, causing the annoying tank meta to transition in to the annoying healer meta and cause the same if not worse stale slow paced fighting style PvP has become.

    Let me ask you this OP: do you believe healers have ANY place at all in PVP? I pose that question to you honestly and I hope you think about it carefully before you answer it.

    Because what you - and many others on this forum - are complaining about here is that healers are keeping people alive in PVP - which is precisely their role in the game! If a healer cannot keep people alive in any phase, be it PVP or PVE, then there is precisely ZERO point in having a healer at all because a healer who cannot keep people upright is not performing their primary function. Also consider that because healing is already reduced in PVP environments, any changes to healers in PVP will further erode their ability to do their job in the PVE environment - in a game that is primarily a PVE game.

    I don't believe this is a matter of healers overperforming. I think this is a matter of PVP players not liking or not being willing to accept that healers have a place in PVP. Its a matter of healers doing their jobs in a group combat environment and peoples frustrations boiling over. But that doesn't necessarily mean that healers need to be changed.

    Furthermore, I hate seeing posts say that any potato with two thumbs can spam healing springs and keep a group upright. I think that is a SLIGHT exaggeration (I've played a healer in PVP in big groups so I know how it plays out), as it only really works out that way if people stay tightly balled on the healers and you have multiple healers laying down AOE heals - which mostly only happens when you are fighting in keeps. If you engage these groups in the open - which is what coordinated groups should do - then the DPS get spread out, the healing gets spread thin, and even a group carrying multiple healers can be wiped.

    Secondly, spring spammers are mediocre healers. ANYONE can do that, assuming they have enough sustain. That part is true, but GOOD healers, particularly in PVP environments won't simply spam springs. THey'll throw in abilities that add damage wards to their allies, damage buffs, and purge often to ensure that the damage buff/debuff ratio is always in your favor, ensuring that you have higher odds of winning the encounter. That is where the true skill lies with a healer - being able to multitask. And far fewer people can actually do that well.

    Overall, IMO, I think people are mainly complaining about healers because people have recently discovered that healers have use and utility in a PVP environment - and you have a lot of people who are frustrated and unwilling to accept that as a reality - so they do the only thing they are capable of doing: cry for nerfs.

    I've seen this mentality that the game needs to be balanced around PVP erode and destroy another fun game I heavily invested in - Destiny. And I do NOT want to see Zos make the same exact mistakes that Bungie made with that game. Zos needs to take a hard look at Y1 of Destiny 2 and decide if that is what they want for this game, because this game is going down that same exact path in an attempt to satisfy a group of crybabies who, truth be told, will never be happy because there is absolutely NOTHING Zos can do to make dying in PVP feel fun or satisfying.

    So I can thank you for keeping the zerg alive, making PvP a punish and maintaining my solid <10 fps in cyrodil

    Also, lets not pretend that healers are the sole cause of "Zerging." People zerg because it makes it easier to kill other players (aka "team shot meta"). That this also makes it easier for healers to do their job is just a side-effect. If they wanted to get rid of zerging all together, you know what would be the best way to do it? Remove battle spirit all together and/or ramp UP the damage people do in Cyrodil. This would allow those AOE's to more heavily punish groups that are balling up tight together, forcing people away from the zerg mentality.
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    Patch after patch the community complains about the lack of need for a dedicated healer in most PvE content and how the ultra easy, cut and paste lack of variety play style of the role feels boring and unnecessary, however in the games PvP a dedicated healer is beyond overpowered, giving an almost thumbless group unparalleled levels of survivability and and allowing for other other roles to take on a much more diverse gear set up and play style. I would say on average a 2 man group comprised of 1 healer and 1 DPS far outperforms a 3 man of DPS builds.

    A lack of a cooldown on resurrection interruption and skill like guard cause a tank/healer hybrid to outperform any other build in terms of group utility. Previously sets like earthgore and now sets like troll king and nightflame also give insane levels of passive off healing on top, making some groups unkillable without the use of siege. Coupled with the changes to Vigor, it seems that next update the group dedicated healer will become more prominent than ever, causing the annoying tank meta to transition in to the annoying healer meta and cause the same if not worse stale slow paced fighting style PvP has become.

    Let me ask you this OP: do you believe healers have ANY place at all in PVP? I pose that question to you honestly and I hope you think about it carefully before you answer it.

    Because what you - and many others on this forum - are complaining about here is that healers are keeping people alive in PVP - which is precisely their role in the game! If a healer cannot keep people alive in any phase, be it PVP or PVE, then there is precisely ZERO point in having a healer at all because a healer who cannot keep people upright is not performing their primary function. Also consider that because healing is already reduced in PVP environments, any changes to healers in PVP will further erode their ability to do their job in the PVE environment - in a game that is primarily a PVE game.

    I don't believe this is a matter of healers overperforming. I think this is a matter of PVP players not liking or not being willing to accept that healers have a place in PVP. Its a matter of healers doing their jobs in a group combat environment and peoples frustrations boiling over. But that doesn't necessarily mean that healers need to be changed.

    Furthermore, I hate seeing posts say that any potato with two thumbs can spam healing springs and keep a group upright. I think that is a SLIGHT exaggeration (I've played a healer in PVP in big groups so I know how it plays out), as it only really works out that way if people stay tightly balled on the healers and you have multiple healers laying down AOE heals - which mostly only happens when you are fighting in keeps. If you engage these groups in the open - which is what coordinated groups should do - then the DPS get spread out, the healing gets spread thin, and even a group carrying multiple healers can be wiped.

    Secondly, spring spammers are mediocre healers. ANYONE can do that, assuming they have enough sustain. That part is true, but GOOD healers, particularly in PVP environments won't simply spam springs. THey'll throw in abilities that add damage wards to their allies, damage buffs, and purge often to ensure that the damage buff/debuff ratio is always in your favor, ensuring that you have higher odds of winning the encounter. That is where the true skill lies with a healer - being able to multitask. And far fewer people can actually do that well.

    Overall, IMO, I think people are mainly complaining about healers because people have recently discovered that healers have use and utility in a PVP environment - and you have a lot of people who are frustrated and unwilling to accept that as a reality - so they do the only thing they are capable of doing: cry for nerfs.

    I've seen this mentality that the game needs to be balanced around PVP erode and destroy another fun game I heavily invested in - Destiny. And I do NOT want to see Zos make the same exact mistakes that Bungie made with that game. Zos needs to take a hard look at Y1 of Destiny 2 and decide if that is what they want for this game, because this game is going down that same exact path in an attempt to satisfy a group of crybabies who, truth be told, will never be happy because there is absolutely NOTHING Zos can do to make dying in PVP feel fun or satisfying.

    This is the issue I think too. So many people haven’t played a pvp MMO so have no idea what it’s supposed to look like. They want an FPS feel where you either blow up or get blown up in seconds and will ruin the game.

    If that’s how the game will be I’d just play an FPS.
    Edited by Iskiab on August 3, 2019 1:13PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
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    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
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