Budding seeds HoT numbers (Answered)

sindalstar

Hi all.

With regard to this recent change -
Healing Seed:
Budding Seeds (morph): This morph now also introduces a Heal over Time while the Area of Effect grows. If the ability is consumed early, this Heal over Time is also consumed. "

Could anyone give me an idea how just how much the new HoT addition to the warden's seeds is as the notes doesn't specify any sort of numbers to go with it? Is it a little weak trickle or somewat respectable? Has some of end result healing been moved into the HoT to compensate?

I ask because budding seeds would be:
An aoe 6 second HoT that provides a synergy that also provides HoT and then creates a big heal for everyone still standing inside it, which you can collapse earlier. (it's also not a very expensive ability cost wise)

It almost sounds like the reverse of the ulty at this point (One big heal followed by a HoT zone)
My warden healer isn't complaining I just want and idea of what it's doing now

Ishtharo

Wish they would add the HoT to Corrupting Pollen as well, since it saw a substantial nerf in the last patch to it's ability to provide Major Defile.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

straight from the pts on my nord warden healer, with SPC, JG and rkugamz.



pretty in line with all other ground aoe heals over time.

sindalstar

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

straight from the pts on my nord warden healer, with SPC, JG and rkugamz.



pretty in line with all other ground aoe heals over time.

Thank you!

Seraphayel

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

straight from the pts on my nord warden healer, with SPC, JG and rkugamz.



pretty in line with all other ground aoe heals over time.

Thank you again for providing tooltips.

Well, Budding Seeds looks absolutely overloaded with stuff, the same as Ritual of Retribution.

AoE HoT (as strong as every other AoE HoT in U23) + very high delayed burst heal + a very strong HoT synergy + minimal costs. I don't wanna say it but that's as OP as Ritual of Retribution we all complained two weeks ago.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Seraphayel wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

straight from the pts on my nord warden healer, with SPC, JG and rkugamz.



pretty in line with all other ground aoe heals over time.

Thank you again for providing tooltips.

Well, Budding Seeds looks absolutely overloaded with stuff, the same as Ritual of Retribution.

AoE HoT (as strong as every other AoE HoT in U23) + very high delayed burst heal + a very strong HoT synergy + minimal costs. I don't wanna say it but that's as OP as Ritual of Retribution we all complained two weeks ago.

and it can almost pay for itself from the passive, "Nature's Gift", up to 1750 if you heal someone every tick.

Seraphayel

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

straight from the pts on my nord warden healer, with SPC, JG and rkugamz.



pretty in line with all other ground aoe heals over time.

Thank you again for providing tooltips.

Well, Budding Seeds looks absolutely overloaded with stuff, the same as Ritual of Retribution.

AoE HoT (as strong as every other AoE HoT in U23) + very high delayed burst heal + a very strong HoT synergy + minimal costs. I don't wanna say it but that's as OP as Ritual of Retribution we all complained two weeks ago.

and it can almost pay for itself from the passive, "Nature's Gift", up to 1750 if you heal someone every tick.

Yeah and all the other benefits via Warden healer passives. This skill is the new epitome of getting everything while paying nothing. It's like Healing Springs just better for no cost plus an additional burst heal and synergy.

I really like that they did this to the skill but... it just feels way overloaded especially when 3 other classes lack OP healing skills like this. A skill like this on a Sorcerer/DK/NB to make them viable healers? Yes please. On a Warden? Uhm... how about making the "non-healers" better and give them at least comparable skills.

SeaUnicorn

Note that one of the reasons healing spring got nerf is the performance impact. 3x spring stacking = lost of compute. This skill does not stack, spamming it removes one and adds another. and and hence not such a big performance hog. And honestly it's much needed burst heal for hard content yet not so broken in pvp since it's requires 2gcd hence not as OP and stacking springs. Happy about the change

wheem_ESO

slofwnd wrote: »

Note that one of the reasons healing spring got nerf is the performance impact. 3x spring stacking = lost of compute. This skill does not stack, spamming it removes one and adds another. and and hence not such a big performance hog. And honestly it's much needed burst heal for hard content yet not so broken in pvp since it's requires 2gcd hence not as OP and stacking springs. Happy about the change

Yea, I've used this morph before in PvP, a long time ago. You can get some really big heals with it, but it requires 2 GCDs and had (still has?) issues with "losing" casts if you tried to spam it, wasting GCDs quite frequently. Going by the above screenshots, I don't think the HOT is large enough to make this spell a "problem" in PvP.

Seraphayel

The AoE HoT is as strong as Healing Springs. With Warden passives the skill comes almost for free. It has a high healing Synergy and a high delayed AoE burst heal.

And you don’t think this skill offers far too much? Why would you even pop it before it runs out now with the AoE HoT? It’s more of an emergency that you can better cover with Mushrooms if really needed while the HoT ticks.

This skill should cost 4k Magicka for all the things it does.

_Ahala_

2k cost with 10k heal and 10k heal synergy

*Crickets*

2k cost with 10k heal 1.2k hps for 6s and 10k heal synergy?

OMG! Double the cost, kill it with fire. Make this class have more dead morphs cause growing swarm, deceptive predator, expansive frost cloak, arctic blast, frozen retreat, and bursting vines aren’t enough for this accursed red head step child of a class. Magden doesn't deserve to be half competent in any role...

How about no. This change was done to compensate warden healers for the lost healing from healing springs... Magden healers already make full use of nature’s gift with lotus blossom so it’s not like this is adding any extra sustain... and besides, what is the point of magden next patch anyways if its not a great healing class? Are their some dps buffs coming to the class that we haven’t heard about?

Aznarb

I'm glad they add this now we can use it as spammable in heavy dmg incoming situation w/o be afraid of ppl dying the time we push the button on more time.

Not to high no to low, seem fine.

Hope they do something like this for off-meta healer as well and it will be perfect.

Seraphayel

To compensate Warden healer... lol.

Please look at what they did to Dragonknight‘s Cinder Storm healing skill. Almost halved the healing yet increased the cost to over 5k Magicka plus it has a tiny radius. Yes it lasts 20 seconds but it was still nerfed and turned into trash.

Budding Seeds didn’t need an additional AoE HoT on top of all the other things it provides and if you think 1.9k Magicka for a skill that offers so much is not way too cheap... you might be biased.

By the way Healing Springs costs 2.8k Magicka and heals for way less overall than Budding Seeds.

Ajax_22

wheem_ESO wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

Note that one of the reasons healing spring got nerf is the performance impact. 3x spring stacking = lost of compute. This skill does not stack, spamming it removes one and adds another. and and hence not such a big performance hog. And honestly it's much needed burst heal for hard content yet not so broken in pvp since it's requires 2gcd hence not as OP and stacking springs. Happy about the change

I don't think the HOT is large enough to make this spell a "problem" in PvP.

Budding Seeds won't be a problem, because everyone will still use the far superior Corrupting Pollen in PvP.

_Ahala_

Seraphayel wrote: »

To compensate Warden healer... lol.

Please look at what they did to Dragonknight‘s Cinder Storm healing skill. Almost halved the healing yet increased the cost to over 5k Magicka plus it has a tiny radius. Yes it lasts 20 seconds but it was still nerfed and turned into trash.

Budding Seeds didn’t need an additional AoE HoT on top of all the other things it provides and if you think 1.9k Magicka for a skill that offers so much is not way too cheap... you might be biased.

By the way Healing Springs costs 2.8k Magicka and heals for way less overall than Budding Seeds.

Just because zos is terrible at balancing healer dk up to the point where it’s competitive doesn’t mean healer warden needs to get destroyed. Ask for healer magdk buffs instead of healer warden nerfs. If we nerf all class skills to match useless ones then we are left with a game where classes are meaningless... you want molten whip to be as bad as screaming cliff racer?

For the record... I’m not exactly happy about the budding seeds change either... I feel like it was a complete waste of resources for zos to focus on budding seeds while the magicka side of the class still has a garbage spammable, a heavily predictable and counterable playstyle, no cc worth speaking of, a relative lack of dps options due to poor class design and access to only one offensive magicka weapon line, and practically no internal synergy within its toolkit. Healing and tanking for magden are fine... Dps on the other hand is abysmal

wheem_ESO

Seraphayel wrote: »

The AoE HoT is as strong as Healing Springs. With Warden passives the skill comes almost for free. It has a high healing Synergy and a high delayed AoE burst heal.

And you don’t think this skill offers far too much? Why would you even pop it before it runs out now with the AoE HoT? It’s more of an emergency that you can better cover with Mushrooms if really needed while the HoT ticks.

This skill should cost 4k Magicka for all the things it does.

Saying that the AOE HOT is as strong as Healing Springs is to say that it's essentially worthless in non-zerg PvP, especially since it can't be spammed/stacked by one player. I've seen quite a few people in low MMR BGs thinking they could spam Healing Springs to keep themselves and/or their teammates alive against opponents that actually had decent damage, and they typically get steamrolled pretty easily.

I hopped on my live-copied Magicka Warden, reset all my CP (to mimic Battlegrounds/no-CP Cyrodiil), summoned my Netch, and checked Budding Seeds with a Skill Respec scroll. The resulting tooltip: a HOT of 1,093 per second (which will go higher with Major Mending, obviously). If you think a pre-Battlespirit, pre-Defile tooltip of 1,093 (with Necropotence, Major Sorcery, tri-stat food, 3x Spell Damage enchants on jewelry, and a Nirnhoned weapon) is going to be some kind of life-saving, OP healing, I think you're going to get a rude awakening...assuming you actually play a Magicka Warden.

That sort of a HOT, which also requires you to stay within the area of effect, is a fart in a hurricane.

Seraphayel

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The AoE HoT is as strong as Healing Springs. With Warden passives the skill comes almost for free. It has a high healing Synergy and a high delayed AoE burst heal.

And you don’t think this skill offers far too much? Why would you even pop it before it runs out now with the AoE HoT? It’s more of an emergency that you can better cover with Mushrooms if really needed while the HoT ticks.

This skill should cost 4k Magicka for all the things it does.

Saying that the AOE HOT is as strong as Healing Springs is to say that it's essentially worthless in non-zerg PvP, especially since it can't be spammed/stacked by one player. I've seen quite a few people in low MMR BGs thinking they could spam Healing Springs to keep themselves and/or their teammates alive against opponents that actually had decent damage, and they typically get steamrolled pretty easily.

I hopped on my live-copied Magicka Warden, reset all my CP (to mimic Battlegrounds/no-CP Cyrodiil), summoned my Netch, and checked Budding Seeds with a Skill Respec scroll. The resulting tooltip: a HOT of 1,093 per second (which will go higher with Major Mending, obviously). If you think a pre-Battlespirit, pre-Defile tooltip of 1,093 (with Necropotence, Major Sorcery, tri-stat food, 3x Spell Damage enchants on jewelry, and a Nirnhoned weapon) is going to be some kind of life-saving, OP healing, I think you're going to get a rude awakening...assuming you actually play a Magicka Warden.

That sort of a HOT, which also requires you to stay within the area of effect, is a fart in a hurricane.

It seems like you absolutely didn’t get what my problem with the skill is.

It’s not just an AoE HoT now which rivals Healing Springs or any other AoE HoT in strength, it has a delayed AoE burst heal, it has a very strong healing synergy and on top of that its costs are very cheap (2430 Magicka), cheaper than most other healing spells in game that offer less functionality overall (I don’t even know if there’s a cheaper healing skill than this).

Refreshing Path costs 3510 Magicka, Life Amid Death costs 3510 Magicka, Grand Healing costs 2808 Magicka (formerly 3510 Magicka), Ritual costs 4320 Magicka (Ritual is a bad example though as it offers a ton of functionality as well and its cost is justified, might be even too cheap as well), Eruption/Cinder Storm costs 5670 Magicka. On my quick look through the healing skills I haven't found one that's as cheap as Healing Seed/Budding Seed with so much functionality build in. Even Regeneration costs 2700 Magicka now. Only Vigor comes close with 2295 Stamina yet with its 15% lesser costs due to being a Stamina skill it's not really cheaper. I know that the other AoE HoTs last longer yet they don't have a burst heal or a synergy build in.

For the price you pay this skill offers far too much in the light of all the U23 changes. It's way too cheap and this has nothing to do with "nerfing" Warden, it's more of a thing to standardize things correctly when you want to standardize things at all. Budding Seeds should at least cost as much as Grand Healing.

mague

LOL. There was a proverb: Never nerf the healer healing your next raid.

You guys are insane creative when it is about deconstruct something.

No one used seeds when having springs. Now its a real spell like the templer one and evry class deserves a loaded skill in a game with only 5 buttons.

Luckylancer

Seraphayel wrote: »

To compensate Warden healer... lol.

Please look at what they did to Dragonknight‘s Cinder Storm healing skill. Almost halved the healing yet increased the cost to over 5k Magicka plus it has a tiny radius. Yes it lasts 20 seconds but it was still nerfed and turned into trash.

Budding Seeds didn’t need an additional AoE HoT on top of all the other things it provides and if you think 1.9k Magicka for a skill that offers so much is not way too cheap... you might be biased.

By the way Healing Springs costs 2.8k Magicka and heals for way less overall than Budding Seeds.

Healing springs is free with increased magicka return. You dont mentioned this so you are biased. And why a "dragon knight" should heal better than a divine caster or nature caster? Things are nice this way.

Seraphayel

Luckylancer wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

To compensate Warden healer... lol.

Please look at what they did to Dragonknight‘s Cinder Storm healing skill. Almost halved the healing yet increased the cost to over 5k Magicka plus it has a tiny radius. Yes it lasts 20 seconds but it was still nerfed and turned into trash.

Budding Seeds didn’t need an additional AoE HoT on top of all the other things it provides and if you think 1.9k Magicka for a skill that offers so much is not way too cheap... you might be biased.

By the way Healing Springs costs 2.8k Magicka and heals for way less overall than Budding Seeds.

Healing springs is free with increased magicka return. You dont mentioned this so you are biased. And why a "dragon knight" should heal better than a divine caster or nature caster? Things are nice this way.

Budding Seeds is "free" also with Warden's "Nature's Gift" passive. We mentioned this several times in this thread already.

Why should a Dragonknight heal worse than a "divine/nature caster"? This logic doesn't really apply to the ESO universe / game design.

wheem_ESO

Seraphayel wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The AoE HoT is as strong as Healing Springs. With Warden passives the skill comes almost for free. It has a high healing Synergy and a high delayed AoE burst heal.

And you don’t think this skill offers far too much? Why would you even pop it before it runs out now with the AoE HoT? It’s more of an emergency that you can better cover with Mushrooms if really needed while the HoT ticks.

This skill should cost 4k Magicka for all the things it does.

Saying that the AOE HOT is as strong as Healing Springs is to say that it's essentially worthless in non-zerg PvP, especially since it can't be spammed/stacked by one player. I've seen quite a few people in low MMR BGs thinking they could spam Healing Springs to keep themselves and/or their teammates alive against opponents that actually had decent damage, and they typically get steamrolled pretty easily.

I hopped on my live-copied Magicka Warden, reset all my CP (to mimic Battlegrounds/no-CP Cyrodiil), summoned my Netch, and checked Budding Seeds with a Skill Respec scroll. The resulting tooltip: a HOT of 1,093 per second (which will go higher with Major Mending, obviously). If you think a pre-Battlespirit, pre-Defile tooltip of 1,093 (with Necropotence, Major Sorcery, tri-stat food, 3x Spell Damage enchants on jewelry, and a Nirnhoned weapon) is going to be some kind of life-saving, OP healing, I think you're going to get a rude awakening...assuming you actually play a Magicka Warden.

That sort of a HOT, which also requires you to stay within the area of effect, is a fart in a hurricane.

It seems like you absolutely didn’t get what my problem with the skill is.

It’s not just an AoE HoT now which rivals Healing Springs or any other AoE HoT in strength, it has a delayed AoE burst heal, it has a very strong healing synergy and on top of that its costs are very cheap (2430 Magicka), cheaper than most other healing spells in game that offer less functionality overall (I don’t even know if there’s a cheaper healing skill than this).

Refreshing Path costs 3510 Magicka, Life Amid Death costs 3510 Magicka, Grand Healing costs 2808 Magicka (formerly 3510 Magicka), Ritual costs 4320 Magicka (Ritual is a bad example though as it offers a ton of functionality as well and its cost is justified, might be even too cheap as well), Eruption/Cinder Storm costs 5670 Magicka. On my quick look through the healing skills I haven't found one that's as cheap as Healing Seed/Budding Seed with so much functionality build in. Even Regeneration costs 2700 Magicka now. Only Vigor comes close with 2295 Stamina yet with its 15% lesser costs due to being a Stamina skill it's not really cheaper. I know that the other AoE HoTs last longer yet they don't have a burst heal or a synergy build in.

For the price you pay this skill offers far too much in the light of all the U23 changes. It's way too cheap and this has nothing to do with "nerfing" Warden, it's more of a thing to standardize things correctly when you want to standardize things at all. Budding Seeds should at least cost as much as Grand Healing.

It seems as though you're looking at Budding Seeds from a purely theoretical standpoint, and erroneously deeming it a really strong skill. But there's a reason that virtually no one uses it on live, and this tiny little HOT isn't going to change that calculation one bit (at least for PvP). Generally speaking, you want your big burst heals in PvP to happen now, not in 6 seconds...which may happen 1 second before a big burst comes your way.

If you do want to keep that ground effect down in order to potentially benefit from the delayed burst heal (and provide a synergy for teammates), why not use the Corrupting Pollen morph? The burst heal and synergy are the same on both morphs, and have, as best as I can recall, not been changed one bit since Morrowind's early access period started. What Budding Seeds has over Corrupting Pollen isn't a delayed burst heal and synergy, it's the ability to trigger that burst heal early...at the cost of an extra GCD.

Frankly, it seems fairly obvious to me that you've never actually used Budding Seeds as a heal in PvP (if you do, get ready for people to dodge roll, streak, sprint, etc...out of it really frequently), especially when you suggested that a long winded tooltip was justification for it costing 4k magicka. Being cheap is all it really has going for it, and even then virtually no one uses it.

Aznarb

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

straight from the pts on my nord warden healer, with SPC, JG and rkugamz.



pretty in line with all other ground aoe heals over time.

Do they have remove it ?
I don't have this tool-tip on PTS Oo

Nevermind, seem to heal after few test.
They just don't put the good tool tip in French AGAIN...

Thraben

wheem_ESO wrote: »

1) It seems as though you're looking at Budding Seeds from a purely theoretical standpoint, and erroneously deeming it a really strong skill. But there's a reason that virtually no one uses it on live, and this tiny little HOT isn't going to change that calculation one bit (at least for PvP). Generally speaking, you want your big burst heals in PvP to happen now, not in 6 seconds...which may happen 1 second before a big burst comes your way.

2) If you do want to keep that ground effect down in order to potentially benefit from the delayed burst heal (and provide a synergy for teammates), why not use the Corrupting Pollen morph? The burst heal and synergy are the same on both morphs, and have, as best as I can recall, not been changed one bit since Morrowind's early access period started. What Budding Seeds has over Corrupting Pollen isn't a delayed burst heal and synergy, it's the ability to trigger that burst heal early...at the cost of an extra GCD.

2) Pollen is and has always been the unofficial StamWarden morph.

1) Seeds in its current iteration can replace the old springs spam. I won´t give any hints how, since I fear it goes live like this, but its low cost combined with its standard HoT can actually make a difference when you use it combined with 2 other healing skills, and specialized equipment.
On PTS, I could manage to build up a "healing road" which has even a higher HPS than the usual 3 healing springs people stack. Without any sustain problems.

Stibbons

Warden the new heal meta.

Olupajmibanan

This is like Christmas in July for Warden tanks. They now can make use of Nature's Gift passive without having to rely on unstable Leeching Vines.

Thank you Zos, much appreciated.

Tryxus

Yeah, I'm really happy with this change. The 1st PTS update had me worried about my Healden due to the Orb changes as well as not having a ground placed HoT to stack with Grand Healing etc (Forest doesn't count). Much needed improvement

Lovin' it

Wouldn't mind a cost increase tho since it's an extra effect and because of the Nature's Gift passive. Or to have the instant consumption cost Magicka...

TheGreatBlackBear

Lol. Who uses budding seeds for the heal? The play is to run corrupting pollen for the synergy and the mobility of being able to cast it somewhere else immediately and avoiding the clunky double tap mechanic of budding.

Aznarb

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

This is like Christmas in July for Warden tanks. They now can make use of Nature's Gift passive without having to rely on unstable Leeching Vines.

Thank you Zos, much appreciated.

TBH vine still look better for tank
But yeah it's a good improvement !

citats

Yup this skill would be really great in PvP as well if it was anything close to reliable. If you spam cast it with nobody around, you start to see how every ~10th cast it just won't place on the ground or the heal just doesn't get applied to you. And the frequency of this problem seems to double for every enemy dealing damage to you. You also have to cast it twice for the quick burst heal which doubles the chances of one of the ability casts to fail and leads to your death. It might just be that ground aoes are broken like this, because the tree ultimate is also unreliable with lots of enemies near you. If this is the case, I can't imagine how unreliable magnecro with all its ground aoes must be in slightly laggy situations.

Aznarb

citats wrote: »

Yup this skill would be really great in PvP as well if it was anything close to reliable. If you spam cast it with nobody around, you start to see how every ~10th cast it just won't place on the ground or the heal just doesn't get applied to you. And the frequency of this problem seems to double for every enemy dealing damage to you. You also have to cast it twice for the quick burst heal which doubles the chances of one of the ability casts to fail and leads to your death. It might just be that ground aoes are broken like this, because the tree ultimate is also unreliable with lots of enemies near you. If this is the case, I can't imagine how unreliable magnecro with all its ground aoes must be in slightly laggy situations.

Even mushroom are buggy, can't count the time when they don't give heal to target on the cone..

Excelsus

No one has mentioned the important part... the hot stops if its consumed. A skill thats most beneficial when its not being synergized is counter productive, so your tank loses an Alkosh synergy so your dps can have close to pre nerf heals? And most dps will probably still hit x either for Lokke or on instinct.