Why is there no counter to Major Mending?

Jeremy

cheemers wrote: »

Or minor mending for that matter. I mean the "increase healing done" passive. For example,

Protection has Vulnerability
Maim has Berserk
Vitality has Defile

But nothing for Mending? Tanky players can stack stars into both Blessed and Quick Recovery, and DK can get both mending and vitality from fragmented shield + lingering health pots, but the only reply to this is defile?

Is it meant to be Heal Absorption? Because that is not a viable or functional "debuff" atm, limited to a gimmicky set or expensive potions. There should be a counter to Vitality, something like Major/Minor Suppression that reduces target's healing done by 10-25%. Better yet, put it on Incap / Soul Harvest so NBs actually have a role in group fights, targeting and crippling the squishy back line healers. Right now healing is double stacked without adequate counters.

This is a CP issue Cheemers, not a major vitality + major mending problem.

Go do some None CP PvP on this game and try to heal through the damage being done to you as a "tank meta" or a healer with those two buffs on you. You won't like the results.

I also disagree with the basic premise of your post that healing and damage need to be kept even. Healing is useless if all it can do is empty your magicka pool while someone is trying to kill you before you die. Healing needs to be able to exceed incoming damage numbers for it to be effective. That's a basic principle every other MMO on the market understands except this one.

cheemers

StaticWave wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

@StaticWave

Thanks for the detailed post but again I'm not concerned as much about the healer's ability to heal themselves (healing taken/received whatever) but more importantly their ability to Heal their teammates (Healing Done) which currently has no matching negative debuff to the positive Mending buff. A defiled healer can still heal their entire group with 10k breath of lifes or ritual of rebirth etc, and regardless of how much you've defiled them, there's no way to reduce that healing unless you kill or silence the healer.

I understand your point, but keep in mind defile also affects healing done, since it’s part of the equation.

Healing after defile = (1 + 0.25 + 0.08 + 0.15)(1 - 0.465 - 0.2325)(1 + 0.3 + 0.15 + 0.15 - 0.5) = 0.49 or 49%

You don’t need a debuff for Mending, because defile indirectly affects healing done AND healing received by being multiplicative with both of them. The only way for healing done to not be affected is if healing taken gets thrown out of the equation, but it can’t be.

Healers will do less healing to their teammates when defiled. Introducing debuffs for either mending or vitality is unnecessary. In fact, it would render healing useless on most builds that aren’t specced for healing.

Ah I see your point - you're proposing that the counter to a healer's mending is to hit all their heal-targets with defile? I respectfully disagree.

Compare healing to damage done. It's the same equation, but my damage can be debuffed by my target casting major/minor protection on themselves, or major/minor maim on me. For me to overcome this I can hit my target with major/minor vulnerability or cast major/minor berserk on myself.

By casting vulnerability on my target doesn't overcome the fact that I'm still hitting all their teammates with maim-ed damage. The difference is that my original target's protection only applies to their own damage taken, whereas Mending applies to all the healer's heal-targets.

Having defile as the only heal counter is like having vulnerability as the only damaged reduction counter - there is no Berserk for anti-healing.

Damage and healing should be subject to the same combinations of buffs / debuffs, namely a positive on self or negative on opponent. Healing only has one, even though it has the same equation as damage. Damage can be made trivial with the combination of protection + maim, there is no reason healing can't be afflicted by 2x debuffs since they have 2x buffs.

LukosCreyden

I typically find that killing the offending character is generally a good counter to major mending.

Jeremy

LukosCreyden wrote: »

I typically find that killing the offending character is generally a good counter to major mending.

It is. Which shows right there how effective the healing buff really is when compared to offensive tactics.

I dare anyone on this board to construct a healer using these two buffs and stay alive against a damage dealer of my choosing using nothing but heals.

cheemers

LukosCreyden wrote: »

I typically find that killing the offending character is generally a good counter to major mending.

Killing an attacking character is also an effective way to stop their damage, but failing that you still have protection + maim. Why do you only have the singular defile for healing?

Why are people so happy with these double standards?

Jeremy

cheemers wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

I typically find that killing the offending character is generally a good counter to major mending.

Killing an attacking character is also an effective way to stop their damage, but failing that you still have protection + maim. Why do you only have the singular defile for healing?

Why are people so happy with these double standards?

Because damage is generally just stronger than healing is to begin with on this game.

brandonv516

-Focus the healer
-Apply Minor/Major Defile (something I think you forgot about )
-They will be forced to heal themself, use defensive measures, etc.
-You have countered Minor/Major Mending

Play some non-CP and your eyes will open.

Rex-Umbra

Major Defile exact counter.

J2JMC

Jeremy wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

I typically find that killing the offending character is generally a good counter to major mending.

It is. Which shows right there how effective the healing buff really is when compared to offensive tactics.

I dare anyone on this board to construct a healer using these two buffs and stay alive against a damage dealer of my choosing using nothing but heals.

Balance decisions based on 1v1 situations in an AvAvA pvp game is terrible. Especially when OP's point is about the healing groups receive, and not the healer themselves.


That being said, based on the information that others such as @Wing have provided, I don't think major mending is necessary. But I don't hate the concept tbh, and I see where OP is coming. For the purposes of the following paragraph, I am going to refer to the opposite of the mending bonus as "corruption" (major is 25%, minor is 8%).

With that in mind, I'm wondering what the game would be like if ZOS converted all single target sources of major and minor defile into major and minor corruption, while leaving the AOE sources of defile the same (and maybe add more AOE sources). Then make it so that only the opposite of each bonus can stack (i.e., major mending can stack with minor defile, but not major defile and vice versa). The idea here being that defile is more for group play where you'd have a hard time finding the healer and singling out a target anyway, while corruption is more for small group and solo play. I think it would be a net buff (which ironically is the opposite of what OP wants) for healers given that aoe sources of defile would be harder to apply consistently and major corruption is 5% worse than major defile. The tricky thing here is what counts as healing done vs received, since a set like Malubeth's would arguably get a huge buff off a change like this if the beam is considered healing received and not healing done.

Again, the opposite of major mending isn't necessary. But it is a fun idea to play around with.

WillhelmBlack

Just play PvP that isn't CP enabled. Next!

cheemers

J2JMC wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

I typically find that killing the offending character is generally a good counter to major mending.

It is. Which shows right there how effective the healing buff really is when compared to offensive tactics.

I dare anyone on this board to construct a healer using these two buffs and stay alive against a damage dealer of my choosing using nothing but heals.

Balance decisions based on 1v1 situations in an AvAvA pvp game is terrible. Especially when OP's point is about the healing groups receive, and not the healer themselves.


That being said, based on the information that others such as @Wing have provided, I don't think major mending is necessary. But I don't hate the concept tbh, and I see where OP is coming. For the purposes of the following paragraph, I am going to refer to the opposite of the mending bonus as "corruption" (major is 25%, minor is 8%).

With that in mind, I'm wondering what the game would be like if ZOS converted all single target sources of major and minor defile into major and minor corruption, while leaving the AOE sources of defile the same (and maybe add more AOE sources). Then make it so that only the opposite of each bonus can stack (i.e., major mending can stack with minor defile, but not major defile and vice versa). The idea here being that defile is more for group play where you'd have a hard time finding the healer and singling out a target anyway, while corruption is more for small group and solo play. I think it would be a net buff (which ironically is the opposite of what OP wants) for healers given that aoe sources of defile would be harder to apply consistently and major corruption is 5% worse than major defile. The tricky thing here is what counts as healing done vs received, since a set like Malubeth's would arguably get a huge buff off a change like this if the beam is considered healing received and not healing done.

Again, the opposite of major mending isn't necessary. But it is a fun idea to play around with.

This is a very interesting idea, especially the part about splitting defile off into more of an AoE indiscriminate debuff whereas like you say you can apply neg-mending to a single target. I'm not necessarily wanting to "nerf" healing but feel there should be parity between damage and healing in terms of available buffs and DEbuffs.

I think this topic is probably being discussed at a rather touchy time for most healers given the recent PTS patch notes, and I can understand a lot of that raw anger being a reason as to why there's so much resistance to even discussing such an idea.

WeylandLabs

This community is losing its mind, now they complain about healing ? AFTER - they manage to get Defile nerfed into the ground.

As an old school dot defile/negate healing Stam Sorc build. With the 2019 befoul nerf - the 2018 Duroks nerf - the 2017 Fassals nerf and the duration of the cooldowns on the sets for defile.

It's 100% counterable today, so with people saying what's the counter to mending ?


There is none ! Why becuase there are more sources of things that heal you in the game, than can hinder your heals.

So don't tell the OP that defile is the counter cause the sets Duroks - Ward - Fassalas - Affliction are extremly weak in cooldowns easily cleansed with Templars - Can out heal on Dk's - and Warden and nightblade s can evade cooldown burst heal mag or Stam with [x] stacking crit heals and burst heals and necro is a joke with blastbones defile.

There is no counter to over healing in today meta. Join them or die.

This community nerfed creativity uniqueness and diversity to get one playstyle in PvP. And that's a burst only playstyle for heals and damage been this way for 2 years now.

Casul

I'm fairly certain that in PvP the effects of major buffs such as mending and vitality are cut in half (basing on the build editors values). So with that in mind wouldn't both major vitality and mending only offer 1.125 * 1.15 = 1.29. so a 29% buff to sell healing in PvP. Which would be countered by the base value of 30% from major defile.

Hopefully others can chime in.

Kadoin

Jeremy wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Or minor mending for that matter. I mean the "increase healing done" passive. For example,

Protection has Vulnerability
Maim has Berserk
Vitality has Defile

But nothing for Mending? Tanky players can stack stars into both Blessed and Quick Recovery, and DK can get both mending and vitality from fragmented shield + lingering health pots, but the only reply to this is defile?

Is it meant to be Heal Absorption? Because that is not a viable or functional "debuff" atm, limited to a gimmicky set or expensive potions. There should be a counter to Vitality, something like Major/Minor Suppression that reduces target's healing done by 10-25%. Better yet, put it on Incap / Soul Harvest so NBs actually have a role in group fights, targeting and crippling the squishy back line healers. Right now healing is double stacked without adequate counters.

This is a CP issue Cheemers, not a major vitality + major mending problem.

Go do some None CP PvP on this game and try to heal through the damage being done to you as a "tank meta" or a healer with those two buffs on you. You won't like the results.

I also disagree with the basic premise of your post that healing and damage need to be kept even. Healing is useless if all it can do is empty your magicka pool while someone is trying to kill you before you die. Healing needs to be able to exceed incoming damage numbers for it to be effective. That's a basic principle every other MMO on the market understands except this one.

Yeah, people really underestimate the CP skill vengence and it's contribution to the tank meta, even ZOS apparently won't touch it Isn't it strange how the one thing that might be the biggest balance disturber in PvP gets overlooked every patch and no one makes any noise about it?

Uh...er...Y-Yeah, nevermind what I said! Vengence isn't a problem!

usmguy1234

dsalter wrote: »

heres an idea for future :

Minor Taint = reduced healing delt by 8%
Major Taint = reduced healing delt by 25%

now you have 2 ways to reduce healing, defile and taint, applying both to a healer would more or less cripple them where as applying say... minor taint to a healer reduces their outgoing while if the target that healer who is tainted tries to heal another player who has minor vitality they'll cancel eachother out and the healer will deal normal healing.

Please tell me that you're not a native English speaker... I'm over here dying.

#majortaint