The Case for Class Change in ESO

Edziu

@Taleof2Cities @idk did I wrote ESO is goona die by this now? no

Edziu wrote: »

maybe this wont work for now[...]

but then asked "if" as for sure this is not gonna hap[pen now or soon but at all there is chance for this as with every next patch there is more players upset by this so who not ask about this if it could actually happen? I wrote this and rest is for you and ZOS whcih still dont know for who keep this game - for rp's, casuals who dont need to much attention from game or or more exp, hardcore players for which most of content is mostly unplayable and most bugged and yet ZOS is releasing mainly content for this type of players which is not working properly for most of the time

Dusk_Coven

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And of course, they WILL look towards their rivals.
Look at how those do, the ones with some sort of class change and those without...
So, tell us.
How IS the "class change" situation in other, comparable games?

FFXIV lets you play every class AND this let them get a handle on inflation of alts, which causes all sorts of other types of problems -- like wanting achievements to be spread over a dozen alts (not needed anymore) or exploiting alts for farming/auction house/etcetera.
And class switching can also help with the MMO situation of not enough healers and tanks.
I don't want just class change. I want FFXIV style class switching whenever I feel like it.
Compared to FFXIV, ESO and a lot of games lack a lot of foresight and careful structuring.

SWL has no classes at all, just weapons. You slot any 2 you like but you can learn them all. Combined with a slider for Dps/Tank/Heal focus, everyone can play every role; the nearest approximation to that would be to let us adjust Attribute Points for free any time we are not in combat. In SWL that helps a heckuva lot with the healer/tank shortage.
There is pretty much no reason to have an alt except to somehow farm things or get around per-toon limitations.

SWTOR is an interesting case because each class has six sub-classes over two specialties. But they cannot do a full class change because the story itself is class-specific. You can however change between 3 sub-classes in your chosen specialty. And they give you a ton of alts, account-wide achievements, and various way to zoom past chunks of story if you wanted to redo a character.
In SWTOR, playing a different class is playing a different story.

kind_hero

Vercingetorix wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP's argument fails because it does not address the more significant reason we do not have class change. Devs do not want to add class change and until you figure out why and address that everything else seems rather moot.

Wrong. What the devs want is irrelevant. We, the customer, are their boss - ESO is our game, not theirs. Our collective opinion is what matters, not theirs. If we tell them to do something and the financial viability of their product is at stake, they'll do it - period. For example, an increasing amount of players are complaining about the performance of this game and now ZoS is forced to deal with it. Adding class change functionality is no different - if enough players are fed up with the drastic changes to their class and are tired of having their investment ruined, then they will leave the game. Many have and many more will continue to do so until this feature is added.

So much entitlement here...

It is their game, their intellectual property, so they can do whatever they want.

Regarding your idea, I am not sure that I would change the class of my main char, but I would like to have this "ultimate" option available. Right now, many classes have lost their identity, because weapon tree skills or other skills are better than class abilities. So changing the class will not change so much

FrancisCrawford

I don't feel a need to do everything one one character. My heroic character who saved Tamriel and recovered his soul from Molag Bal doesn't much enjoy being a thief or murderer. Neither do my characters whose self-esteem is founded on the respect they get from their Undaunted peers. Etc.

barney2525

ToxicPAWS wrote: »

I agree with OP. The most pain point is achievements. I've over 31k Achievement points on my Magblade along with all crafting skills+ every known motif in the game and I'd never ever even think about doing the same stuff on another toon. At least for the sake of Achievement points but at the same time, I have a tank as well who does some other achievements which my DD can not. A Class change can easily offset this problem for me.

PS: I've 14 completely leveled and 8 Ready to Play toons. SO creating a new toon is not going to solve anything here or as a matter of fact, is completely irrelevant to the problem.

I'm confused (easily)

I don't understand the mindset. granted we have characters that we have some attachment to. But I see my characters as an adventuring group, straight out of D&D, Baldur's Gate or any other 'party' style game. They ALL contribute to the game. They ALL have their particular benefits. They ALL are available to be picked up and used for specific situations.

Why does One single toon HAVE TO HAVE everything in the game on it? You say you have 8 toons ready to play at a moments notice. Obviously the inference is that you use different toons in different situations.

Why does One toon have to have everything, leaving the other toons useless?

I don't get it.

barney2525

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

So "achievements" seems to be the only argument you people can put forward in favor of this class change token so what you're basically saying is you completed an achievement on some overpowered build which ended up presumably getting nerfed or changed not to your liking so now you can switch to another class and pretend that you completed that achievement on that class? That's fake. What about people who actually grinded that achievement on that class? Here's an example: I go into vMA on a Stam Sorc which I consider the easiest class to do vMA on and I get Flawless Conqueror, I then decide oh I want to pretend I did that on a Magden so I'll now change class to a Magden and keep the Flawless Conqueror title even though I never even did vMA on that class. This scenario applies to any achievement in the game and it actually undermines the effort people put into grinding achievements on a specific class. Class change is a bad idea and should never be added to the game. Level a new character.

What does that get you? Lying about your achievements? Who really cares about other players achievements? Do you see a Flawless Magden and fall at the ground kissing their feet?

People want to keep their achievements because they are their achievements. They have memories on that character and a lot of time invested and don't want to start over.

In a game where titles and skins are sold for gold, who takes other players achievements seriously? I only care about what I did.

It isn't just achievements. It's the time. It's the memories. It's the connection they have to this character they created. They are more than just stupidly named toons to some of us.

If you are seriously worried that someone is going to brag about a game and get undue praise, you have weird priorities.

And once again, what does lying about achievements get you?

Again, this mindset confuses me.

Is this a Millennial thing?

The Achievement goes to the CHARACTER. Maybe they should have picked a different term so players don't get this " I " did this so it should be account wide.

The brand new character has NOT killed all the monsters required for various achievements so it should NOT have that achievement on its character sheet. It has also NOT achieved level 50 in all the crafting... the list goes on and on.

If you want an overall list that shows what the account has accumulated, fine, I can see that. But we are talking about individual characters here and reasons pro and con to have everything put on one character sheet, with the ability to change class as it suits people. They are not wanting everything other characters do put onto the main character sheet. They want to change classes so everything the main character has done remains and they can switch gears to what ever the new Meta is. In short, the main Always has the capability to be the biggest badarse in the game.

The achievements issue is a tangent.

Welkynar

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Welkynar wrote: »

Ok, let’s stop the pretentiousness. If devs can add class change then just add class change. Done. People who prefer making new characters and having multiple classes to play won’t be affected. Casual players or players who only want one character to play, but want to change their class, will be benefitted. Nobody is hurt by a class change. I’m tired of the arguments against this. It’s so pointless and ridiculous.

Wrong thought.
The right one would be: "...will ZOS get profit from this exceeding the paid programmer time spend coding it by a significant enough margin?"
Because spending resources without profit hurts ZOS bottom line, and, well... that is the only hurt they -really- care about. Welcome to capitalism, comrade!

The devs will add class change if it looks like it would get ZOS more profits in the end. But... I suspect they reckon if they just add more paid shortcuts, people will make more alts instead and then maybe get impatient and vexed after playing the same quests for the dozenth time, and get tempted to spend crowns on those shortcuts... spend crowns on XP scrolls, and riding training, and on skyshard mirroring, and whatever else they will add to the crown store. And they may also consider too few people likely to pay the price they would charge...
...at least for now.

Maybe someday they will look at this from a different direction. Maybe someday they will add it.

But arguing from the benefit of the -player- will do little to sway the suits in charge of the company...

(for anyone reading this, please read the whole thing to understand what I’m trying to say)

I see that argument a lot and I did address it in my post already. Not trying to be rude to you but we need to stop bringing up the imaginary profit question that is against class change (and especially it should not be used against performance updates). Adding another purchase option as expensive as they would like is not going to hurt profits.

Class change ISN’T for people who will make alts. I will not need a class change at all (if I buy a class change, that would mean I need to replace one of my character’s class, and thus replace their build and playstyle. They’re not losing money if I don’t need it). My characters are leveled and have enough mount upgrades — all done for free using XP scrolls that ZOS gave away for free (I still have a lot in my bank) and mount upgrades for 250 gold per day. If ZOS was so obsessed with profit they wouldn’t be giving out XP scrolls so much and mount upgrades wouldn’t be available for 250 gold per day. Class changes would most benefit players who focus on one character. These casual players play the game for the journey. They are immersed in the world as their character. They care about their character’s achievements, story quest progress, etc. Maybe even players who have alt characters might want it because they want to change their main’s class.

We need to understand that adding class change is a different kind of purchase than skyshards, XP scrolls, skill lines, mount upgrades, etc. And if profit is sooo important they will do the smart thing and price it at a high crown cost. The profit will come from those who will purchase a class change token but NOT make alts. Meanwhile, players who make alts and do not need a class change token will continue to buy those upgrades because if they use a class change token, they are short on one class! And for players who make alts AND want a class change for their main, there will be even more profit since they will want to purchase a class change for their main and possibly purchase convenience upgrades for their other characters.

The only sound and logical reason is that they simply cannot do it because they can’t code it. Sure, at the moment it can’t happen but probably that doesn’t mean it’s 100% impossible. I mean, it’s replacing 3 skill lines. We can replace our race passives but that’s probably different. I will always support pressuring ZOS to do things players want that isn’t detrimental to the game: Necromancers (happened), buyable skyshards that you’ve already completed (happened), buyable skill lines that you’ve already completed (happened), massive performance update, class change, 60 fps on XB1X and PS4 Pro... And those 3 things that happened had people arguing against them for no good reason. No necromancers because it’s somehow bad for the lore or whatever. No buying skyshards or skill lines because grinding = more money somehow. Anyway, I’m tired and this will probably be my last lengthy post regarding this thing. I know I might sound rude but I’m just tired of seeing all the irrational arguments against class change and other things players want. I just need to say it all.

TheShadowScout

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

I don't want just class change. I want FFXIV style class switching whenever I feel like it.

Then you would need to find an argument how having that would bring ZOS more profit.
...
Which likely won't fly.
Since they aim to get profits from making people make alts! Hoping they might buy more crown store stuff to customize their alts in different ways... make a new necromancer, buy new mount, new pet, new monster weapons, new personality or new costumes, that sort of thing. And yeah, buy new shortcuts to mirror your mains progress for those who get impatient.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

SWTOR is an interesting case because each class has six sub-classes over two specialties.

Wrong.
SWTOR has four classes (per side) with two specializations each. The rest are not "sub-classes" but "skill trees"... much like you can play a templar as stamina DPS or magica healer, stamina tank or magica DPS in ESO by selecting your armor and weapon skill trees, attribute spec and CP distribution...
And those can be respecced, just like here. But the classes and the mandatory specializations? Yeah... the classes are tied to the story you get to play, and as I said, the specializations were not chageable when I left, so...

Welkynar wrote: »

Not trying to be rude to you but we need to stop bringing up the imaginary profit question that is against class change (and especially it should not be used against performance updates). Adding another purchase option as expensive as they would like is not going to hurt profits.

Depends.
They would have to invest to have it coded.
Investments without returns hurt their profits.

Welkynar wrote: »

Class changes would most benefit players who focus on one character...

And once again, you only argue how it would benefit -the player- and not how it would increase the companies profits!
They are not in the business of fulfilling every players wishes. They are in the business of making profit! They choose to do that by making a nifty game... but they already made the nifty game, and now they invest into keeping that up (which is where the performance fixes come in) and to add stuff that people might spend further money for to it.

So you need to make all the considerations of what it would cost them, both in coding investrment and in possibly missing out on other sales if people no longer buy stuff for alts and instead just switch up their main...

Welkynar wrote: »

And if profit is sooo important they will do the smart thing and price it at a high crown cost. The profit will come from those who will purchase a class change token but NOT make alts.

Indeed.
But... how much profit?
How many people would pay a lot for expensive class change in the big picture?
How does that compare to the hassle of changing a characters class, which would be woven throughout a lot of data? Without breaking something else, or "vanishing" some spent skill points?
How does that compare to the profit they make from -easy- to code stuff like just giving some alt something mirrored from the main?

In the end, the big question is... would adding class change be a profitable use of their programmers time, or should they rather add something else? And as mentioned, adding new stuff for alts is likely much, much easier... only one step instead of the whole "remove the one, carry the skill points and add the other" process. Even tho they have some experience with that already through racechange...

Welkynar wrote: »

The only sound and logical reason is that they simply cannot do it because they can’t code it.

Nah, wrong question.
They can definitely code it. All the characters are is a pile of data, they can code -any- change to characters they like.
The question is - how much effort it would be. And how much profit they would expect to get from that. And how much other sales they would have to expect to miss out on if they added it.
And if the one is not worth the effort... then they just won't do it.

Now, since they -just- added the "alt boosting" things... they would seem quite unlikely to add class change, because they want people to get frustrated enough playing alts to go and burn crowns on this rather then just play through the content they did multiple times already.

But... maybe sometime... when all the alts have been played... and noone ever buys those mirrorings anymore...
...maybe then they will change their mind and add class change.
It could happen. But is unlikely at this point.

Androconium

Vercingetorix wrote: »

"Just quickly level a new character."

We've heard this weak excuse every time Class Change is brought up and yet it holds no water because this excuse ignores the fundamental reason for why class change is desired by players - to carry their accomplishments forward into future content. Yes, achievements and quest/map progression are thrown away when a new character is made and for many this is unacceptable because their achievements are a part of their experience in ESO. Plain and simple, it is a punishment to play on more than one character in ESO and it is even more punishing to remain on a character whose class has been fundamentally altered in a way that makes your original class choice undesirable. The accomplishments and completion we have achieved in ESO are simply not being respected - the player's investment is NOT being respected.

"They're adding skill lines and you can get your skyshards in the Crown Store, too. Just make a new character."

There's no way to transfer map completion, quest/achievement completion, and lorebook acquisition to a new character in any way so that argument also holds no water. ZoS brazenly changes core components of each class and give players no way to protect their investment in the game. Nearly every player in ESO chooses their class because they liked what they saw BACK THEN. After a ton of completion (over the course of years for many folks) their choice was rendered irrelevant because of a single patch that fundamentally changed how their class operates. Adding skill line purchases in the Crown Store is also not a substitute for the HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS of hours a player has poured into their character.

Maybe they want you to play hundreds, if not thousands of hours? Sign you up for ESO+ first?

the player's investment is NOT being respected.[/b]

Buying ESO+ subscription time is part of your investment strategy?

Dusk_Coven

barney2525 wrote: »

Why does One toon have to have everything, leaving the other toons useless?

I don't get it.

Story continuity can have a subtle and not-so-subtle effect.
They do pay attention to that in ESO, albeit not so closely as SWTOR.
If you've meet someone before, often they will mention it and the dialog will be different so long as you didn't do story quests out of release order (which ESO is horribly bad at in how they allow you to do that).

Quest choices can also sometimes affect outcomes, affect who is around, and what they say.

*

Achievements are a different animal. They are very weird because the reason is probably to make you do certain things or award you recognition for doing extreme or exotic things.
And then sometimes they secretly use achievements to track things, and that is the primary reason for the achievement, not the achievement itself.
In any case, doing a lot of things in total can for many people be a point of pride and thereby social comparison -- which is probably *the* reason people play a social game at all. To have that distributed over many toons might feel annoying to them because they can't properly demonstrate that the person behind the toons is the one person who accumulated them all.

For example, if your new toon hasn't done (insert difficult veteran content) but wants to join a party doing that, you can at least show them that you the player have cleared that content before on a different toon and you really do know the mechanics.

SWTOR not only acknowledges this with account wide achievements, but they have mutually exclusive achievements that can't all be done by any single character. With account wide achievements, you are showing people that you the PLAYER have done a lot of things.

But now we're headed into psychology and that's another can of worms.

*

What's clear is that there is a sizable population that is interested in account wide achievements.
This is a "problem". And a company that provides a solution to a problem can make money. This is what products are -- company identifies a problem (maybe even manufactures an imaginary one) then company sells you a solution.
A company that sees a problem but ignores it is likely to lose their clients to another company that either has a solution or doesn't have the problem at all.

I'm surprised there isn't yet an AddOn that collects all your achievements over all toons and somehow lets you display that, maybe on an online website. Doesn't sound too hard considering AddOns can collect data on certain achievements like what rare fish you caught or motif you are missing.

Dusk_Coven

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

SWTOR is an interesting case because each class has six sub-classes over two specialties.

Wrong.
SWTOR has four classes (per side) with two specializations each. The rest are not "sub-classes" but "skill trees"... much like you can play a templar as stamina DPS or magica healer, stamina tank or magica DPS in ESO by selecting your armor and weapon skill trees, attribute spec and CP distribution...

Um... I said each class has 2 specializations with sub classes.
You said 2 specializations and skill trees. Then you proceed to talk about how the skill trees are sub-classes of dps, healer, or tank.

But you're right and I'm wrong?

You just earned yourself an ignore for being so deliberately combative you need to tell people they are wrong when you just agreed with them.

idk

Edziu wrote: »

@Taleof2Cities @idk did I wrote ESO is goona die by this now? no

Oddly neither of us said you did so this comment seems rather misplaced.

We merely pointed out that rambling we replied to was rather moot since players are not leaving this game in droves because of the lack of class change (which is far from the game dying). That would be required for your previous comment to even have a chance to make sense.

Edit: Thread still does not even begin to try to address why Zos is not interested in class change. That is basically a requirement to truly begin to make a case for class change.

Blinkin8r

There is no case for class change. Period.

Vercingetorix

Blinkin8r wrote: »

There is no case for class change. Period.

You clearly did not read my post or otherwise you'd understand why it's going to be added to the game. There most certainly is a case for it and that's why Class Change will eventually be added - you really have no say in this. I remember last year when players were adamantly against adding a Necromancer class to ESO and yet here we are...

I'll tag you next year or so when Class Change gets added to ESO so you can look back your comment and have a laugh.

iLLcrime

I find it funny that people are okay with Skyshards and Skill lines but not okay with a class change token.

Welkynar

@TheShadowScout Every business wants profit but not including another thing to purchase isn’t something that will necessarily hurt profits, and I addressed why in this case. And despite everything I said I do not understand how you can still argue that. Did you read everything? Many parts were ignored. I don’t want to repeat them again.

And I have to be honest. You’re making up things that you cannot even confirm. You throw terms and questions around like it’s true. You say “wrong question” and “no, the question is...” like it’s true. Back in January, I believe, in a livestream they said class change wasn’t happening because of technical issues. Hence, why I said the only sound and logical reason being that it’s difficult to code. And you say that is the wrong question, and somehow the right question is about profits and return. Your arguments were used by other people against the Necromancer, the purchasable skyshards, and the purchaseable skill lines, yet here they are. Oddly, I’ve only seen this kind of argument so often for ESO and not other games and MMO’s. It’s really strange to me.

And please stop pretending like ZOS only sees dollar signs and don’t care about the benefits for the players. ZOS has been very generous and I already mentioned that. Let me list all the free things the players got: XP scrolls, instant research scrolls, respec scrolls, mount upgrades, race changes, name changes, crown crates, mounts (cool ones like Glowgill guar, clouded senche, tattooed camel...), pets (imp dragon, the fire guar, psijic pets...), costumes, the Psijic Manor (a notable home!), Murkmire, Vvardenfell, free ESO+ weekends (which free players can take advantage of the crafting bag and play the DLC’s), 100k gold, etc. On their Twitter, they regularly give free things away, like crowns. I got free stuff from Twitter too. All of these didn’t have to be given for free but ZOS did it anyway. They are generous. Not everything is about money to them. And here we are discussing class change, which will most likely not be free.

You seem kind of obsessed about how companies view profits. Like everything is about getting the maximum value out of their captive consumers or something, or getting the highest return on all their investments. But a lot of companies these days practice some sort of social responsibility. Whether it be for the environment or their workers. Even if it reduces their profits. In a lot of cases, doing things in good faith still increase profits, even if it doesn’t initially. And I’m talking about bigger things than a simple class change for a video game (that will likely be priced), such as companies that pledge to recycle everything. If you read everything I said, thank you. I really hope you can understand what I’m saying.

TheShadowScout

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

But you're right and I'm wrong?

You are the one who called a skill tree a "sub-class"! As part of an argument about class change... I mean, come on. How does that look if you just rename a skill tree as a "sub-class" and then point at it and say" Hey, they can change that!"
THAT is the thing that annoyed me.
The classes and the class specializations especially, those were the equivalents to ESO classes. And as I said from the start, those had not been changeable by the time I left. And I realyl would have wanted to "redo" my specialization, make my Twi'lek Gunslinger a Scoundrel... but alas.

Welkynar wrote: »

Every business wants profit but not including another thing to purchase isn’t something that will necessarily hurt profits,

I... am not quite sure what you mean to say with that... tho I kinda suspect you are not saying what you meant to say here.

Welkynar wrote: »

And despite everything I said I do not understand how you can still argue that. Did you read everything?

Yes.

Welkynar wrote: »

Many parts were ignored. I don’t want to repeat them again.

Because they were the parts that argued how Class Change would benefit -players-.
We would agree on that, so there is no sense talking about it.

Heck, I myself would love to see class change.
Because I have felt vexed when a new class came up that was better for an character of mine...

But I am realist enough to realize that whining "Gimme, gimme" won't change anything.

What might is pointing out how giving us this might benefit their bottom line.

Welkynar wrote: »

Back in January, I believe, in a livestream they said class change wasn’t happening because of technical issues. Hence, why I said the only sound and logical reason being that it’s difficult to code.

That's not really much of an issue.
Yeah, sure it would be difficult!
But... its data. Just data. Changing data is easy enough, so the translation of "technical issues" would be "takes more coding time then we believe would be profitable"

Welkynar wrote: »

Your arguments were used by other people against the Necromancer, the purchasable skyshards, and the purchaseable skill lines, yet here they are.

Wrong.
I was arguing in those discussions, I remember what arguments were used.
The necromancers were -always- argued against because of the -lore- and the lore alone. And about the question if its should be a class, or a skill line (and I -still- think it should have been a skill line, but ZOS choose otherwise. So that's what we got.) Noone ever argued about profitability, because -everyone- knew it would be profitable for ZOS to give people necromancy to buy. Duh!
The skyshards and skill lines were -always- argued for as "account wide" per se, and I kept saying "if they do it, they will make you pay crowns for that..." (among other arguments, I -am- definitely on the roleplayer side, and hate the kind of "I the player did it, so all my characters should get it" rule-lawyering), and look what happened!

So here too, I argue... "they will only do it if they think it gets them more profit" and say that all the arguments about how it would be beneficial for -players- are the wrong ones, and one should consider those business aspects as well.

Welkynar wrote: »

And please stop pretending like ZOS only sees dollar signs and don’t care about the benefits for the players. ZOS has been very generous and I already mentioned that. Let me list all the free things the players got:

Not "only" but... that IS the bottom line. They -have- to make a profit, that's the reason the stockholders let them make nifty games in the first place!
As for the free things... have you never seen the "free taste" offers people use to get you to buy their product? Same thing. More or less.

Welkynar wrote: »

They are generous. Not everything is about money to them. And here we are discussing class change, which will most likely not be free.

What now?
Are they generous and care not about money, or will class change if it ever comes be costly???

Yeah, they can be generous. When they made enough profit, and in hopes this will lead to further profit down the road. Duh!

Lets take a step back, and look. Skyshards, skill lines. People kept arguing for them being account wide. Now ZOS is selling them as account mirroring.
Not -that- generous, huh?

Welkynar wrote: »

You seem kind of obsessed about how companies view profits. Like everything is about getting the maximum value out of their captive consumers or something, or getting the highest return on all their investments. But a lot of companies these days practice some sort of social responsibility. Whether it be for the environment or their workers. Even if it reduces their profits. In a lot of cases, doing things in good faith still increase profits, even if it doesn’t initially.

Again.
What now???
Do you think the companies do things as "social responsibility" or in the hopes of getting more profit in the end from the PR value? I know what I think, and I suspect its pretty obvious... but then, I have been around a while, seen much and heard more, and thus have a pretty dim view of human ethics. Especially when money is involved.

And thus I am saying, its -exactly- those considerations that will guide ZOS decisions. How much of an investment, how much of a direct profit from selling class change to those who would buy it at the prices they would charge, how much of a loss in other categories if people don't buy shortcuts but a class change instead...

Are you saying they should not care about that, and just give you what you argue for no matter how much a loss they might take from it? If that were the case, why do the skyshards cost crowns?

Thing is, the developers are responsible to their bosses, and their bosses responsible to the shareholders, and those want to see some return for the investment, with added profit. So those considerations WILL be valid first and foremost, and that is why we got a crown store, and why we get more costumes, mounts and crown crates rather then DLCs, and why skyshard mirroring and riding training comes at a crown price instead of being "account wide" as the "gimme crowd" kept wailing.
And I accept that as the price of doing business.
And I prefer that to the suits in charge shutting down the game and selling off the assets.

Welkynar wrote: »

And I’m talking about bigger things than a simple class change for a video game (that will likely be priced), such as companies that pledge to recycle everything. If you read everything I said, thank you. I really hope you can understand what I’m saying.

I always read everything. I may not reply to everything, but I always read it all.
And I get what you say, I just do not think its a universally valid point of view.

I mean, lets do a little "class change" experiment. Add together ALL the skyshards, and ALL the skill lines, ALL the riding training and ALL the research shortcuts... that is what class change could be reasonably considered to be worth. Think anyone would pay -that-??? Okay, so, now lets say, we will consider a huge discount, and we end up with, say, 10.000 crowns for class change. As much as some of the "nifty!" houses. Make a new thread. Ask how many people would -actually- pay that. Let ZOS see the demand is there... and they might start to rethink their current stance. Eventually.

Jeremy

Vercingetorix wrote: »

"Just quickly level a new character."

We've heard this weak excuse every time Class Change is brought up and yet it holds no water because this excuse ignores the fundamental reason for why class change is desired by players - to carry their accomplishments forward into future content. Yes, achievements and quest/map progression are thrown away when a new character is made and for many this is unacceptable because their achievements are a part of their experience in ESO. Plain and simple, it is a punishment to play on more than one character in ESO and it is even more punishing to remain on a character whose class has been fundamentally altered in a way that makes your original class choice undesirable. The accomplishments and completion we have achieved in ESO are simply not being respected - the player's investment is NOT being respected.

"They're adding skill lines and you can get your skyshards in the Crown Store, too. Just make a new character."

There's no way to transfer map completion, quest/achievement completion, and lorebook acquisition to a new character in any way so that argument also holds no water. ZoS brazenly changes core components of each class and give players no way to protect their investment in the game. Nearly every player in ESO chooses their class because they liked what they saw BACK THEN. After a ton of completion (over the course of years for many folks) their choice was rendered irrelevant because of a single patch that fundamentally changed how their class operates. Adding skill line purchases in the Crown Store is also not a substitute for the HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS of hours a player has poured into their character.

I completely agree. Given how they have butchered the classes over the years and changed how they function - they should allow players an option to change classes. Unfortunately it'll probably never happen since there is money to be made selling conveniences to aid people in starting over their characters.

barney2525

Welkynar wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Welkynar wrote: »

Ok, let’s stop the pretentiousness. If devs can add class change then just add class change. Done. People who prefer making new characters and having multiple classes to play won’t be affected. Casual players or players who only want one character to play, but want to change their class, will be benefitted. Nobody is hurt by a class change. I’m tired of the arguments against this. It’s so pointless and ridiculous.

Wrong thought.
The right one would be: "...will ZOS get profit from this exceeding the paid programmer time spend coding it by a significant enough margin?"
Because spending resources without profit hurts ZOS bottom line, and, well... that is the only hurt they -really- care about. Welcome to capitalism, comrade!

The devs will add class change if it looks like it would get ZOS more profits in the end. But... I suspect they reckon if they just add more paid shortcuts, people will make more alts instead and then maybe get impatient and vexed after playing the same quests for the dozenth time, and get tempted to spend crowns on those shortcuts... spend crowns on XP scrolls, and riding training, and on skyshard mirroring, and whatever else they will add to the crown store. And they may also consider too few people likely to pay the price they would charge...
...at least for now.

Maybe someday they will look at this from a different direction. Maybe someday they will add it.

But arguing from the benefit of the -player- will do little to sway the suits in charge of the company...

(for anyone reading this, please read the whole thing to understand what I’m trying to say)

I see that argument a lot and I did address it in my post already. Not trying to be rude to you but we need to stop bringing up the imaginary profit question that is against class change (and especially it should not be used against performance updates). Adding another purchase option as expensive as they would like is not going to hurt profits.

Class change ISN’T for people who will make alts. I will not need a class change at all (if I buy a class change, that would mean I need to replace one of my character’s class, and thus replace their build and playstyle. They’re not losing money if I don’t need it). My characters are leveled and have enough mount upgrades — all done for free using XP scrolls that ZOS gave away for free (I still have a lot in my bank) and mount upgrades for 250 gold per day. If ZOS was so obsessed with profit they wouldn’t be giving out XP scrolls so much and mount upgrades wouldn’t be available for 250 gold per day. Class changes would most benefit players who focus on one character. These casual players play the game for the journey. They are immersed in the world as their character. They care about their character’s achievements, story quest progress, etc. Maybe even players who have alt characters might want it because they want to change their main’s class.

We need to understand that adding class change is a different kind of purchase than skyshards, XP scrolls, skill lines, mount upgrades, etc. And if profit is sooo important they will do the smart thing and price it at a high crown cost. The profit will come from those who will purchase a class change token but NOT make alts. Meanwhile, players who make alts and do not need a class change token will continue to buy those upgrades because if they use a class change token, they are short on one class! And for players who make alts AND want a class change for their main, there will be even more profit since they will want to purchase a class change for their main and possibly purchase convenience upgrades for their other characters.

The only sound and logical reason is that they simply cannot do it because they can’t code it. Sure, at the moment it can’t happen but probably that doesn’t mean it’s 100% impossible. I mean, it’s replacing 3 skill lines. We can replace our race passives but that’s probably different. I will always support pressuring ZOS to do things players want that isn’t detrimental to the game: Necromancers (happened), buyable skyshards that you’ve already completed (happened), buyable skill lines that you’ve already completed (happened), massive performance update, class change, 60 fps on XB1X and PS4 Pro... And those 3 things that happened had people arguing against them for no good reason. No necromancers because it’s somehow bad for the lore or whatever. No buying skyshards or skill lines because grinding = more money somehow. Anyway, I’m tired and this will probably be my last lengthy post regarding this thing. I know I might sound rude but I’m just tired of seeing all the irrational arguments against class change and other things players want. I just need to say it all.

Granted, it is different than the other types of purchases such as skyshards etc.

But My question is ' IF you implement a 'change class' at will token, what is the point of having classes at all?

IMHO, chasing the 'new' Meta every 6 months is not a good enough reason to Class jump.

IMHO

Vercingetorix

barney2525 wrote: »

Welkynar wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Welkynar wrote: »

Ok, let’s stop the pretentiousness. If devs can add class change then just add class change. Done. People who prefer making new characters and having multiple classes to play won’t be affected. Casual players or players who only want one character to play, but want to change their class, will be benefitted. Nobody is hurt by a class change. I’m tired of the arguments against this. It’s so pointless and ridiculous.

Wrong thought.
The right one would be: "...will ZOS get profit from this exceeding the paid programmer time spend coding it by a significant enough margin?"
Because spending resources without profit hurts ZOS bottom line, and, well... that is the only hurt they -really- care about. Welcome to capitalism, comrade!

The devs will add class change if it looks like it would get ZOS more profits in the end. But... I suspect they reckon if they just add more paid shortcuts, people will make more alts instead and then maybe get impatient and vexed after playing the same quests for the dozenth time, and get tempted to spend crowns on those shortcuts... spend crowns on XP scrolls, and riding training, and on skyshard mirroring, and whatever else they will add to the crown store. And they may also consider too few people likely to pay the price they would charge...
...at least for now.

Maybe someday they will look at this from a different direction. Maybe someday they will add it.

But arguing from the benefit of the -player- will do little to sway the suits in charge of the company...

(for anyone reading this, please read the whole thing to understand what I’m trying to say)

I see that argument a lot and I did address it in my post already. Not trying to be rude to you but we need to stop bringing up the imaginary profit question that is against class change (and especially it should not be used against performance updates). Adding another purchase option as expensive as they would like is not going to hurt profits.

Class change ISN’T for people who will make alts. I will not need a class change at all (if I buy a class change, that would mean I need to replace one of my character’s class, and thus replace their build and playstyle. They’re not losing money if I don’t need it). My characters are leveled and have enough mount upgrades — all done for free using XP scrolls that ZOS gave away for free (I still have a lot in my bank) and mount upgrades for 250 gold per day. If ZOS was so obsessed with profit they wouldn’t be giving out XP scrolls so much and mount upgrades wouldn’t be available for 250 gold per day. Class changes would most benefit players who focus on one character. These casual players play the game for the journey. They are immersed in the world as their character. They care about their character’s achievements, story quest progress, etc. Maybe even players who have alt characters might want it because they want to change their main’s class.

We need to understand that adding class change is a different kind of purchase than skyshards, XP scrolls, skill lines, mount upgrades, etc. And if profit is sooo important they will do the smart thing and price it at a high crown cost. The profit will come from those who will purchase a class change token but NOT make alts. Meanwhile, players who make alts and do not need a class change token will continue to buy those upgrades because if they use a class change token, they are short on one class! And for players who make alts AND want a class change for their main, there will be even more profit since they will want to purchase a class change for their main and possibly purchase convenience upgrades for their other characters.

The only sound and logical reason is that they simply cannot do it because they can’t code it. Sure, at the moment it can’t happen but probably that doesn’t mean it’s 100% impossible. I mean, it’s replacing 3 skill lines. We can replace our race passives but that’s probably different. I will always support pressuring ZOS to do things players want that isn’t detrimental to the game: Necromancers (happened), buyable skyshards that you’ve already completed (happened), buyable skill lines that you’ve already completed (happened), massive performance update, class change, 60 fps on XB1X and PS4 Pro... And those 3 things that happened had people arguing against them for no good reason. No necromancers because it’s somehow bad for the lore or whatever. No buying skyshards or skill lines because grinding = more money somehow. Anyway, I’m tired and this will probably be my last lengthy post regarding this thing. I know I might sound rude but I’m just tired of seeing all the irrational arguments against class change and other things players want. I just need to say it all.

Granted, it is different than the other types of purchases such as skyshards etc.

But My question is ' IF you implement a 'change class' at will token, what is the point of having classes at all?

IMHO, chasing the 'new' Meta every 6 months is not a good enough reason to Class jump.

IMHO

I think you are missing the point and that is to preserve progress accrued on that character when you decide to change your class. Many players that would use these tokens would be using them on characters with many logged hours, achievements, map clears, etc. The point is that the player using the token is looking to preserve their progression in ESO, not to chase some fleeting "best class" mentality. For these players, starting over is not an option because their are "completionists" and/or have a limited amount of time to play and would like to experience the rest of ESO instead of being stuck clearing the same content they cleared out months or even years ago.

Welkynar

@barney2525

But My question is ' IF you implement a 'change class' at will token, what is the point of having classes at all?

Meta shifts often. Having multiple characters in each class would be cheaper than buying a class change every few months to chase the meta. It's good to have multiple classes anyway to have a dps, tank, healer, and different styles for PVP. Meta chasers will need to have multiple characters so adapting to new patches is easier. In the end, I doubt casual players who want class change, or players with alts who want a class change for their main, would do it to chase any meta (unless it's so brokenly unbalanced, maybe). Anyway, it's always better having multiple characters so you can switch your playstyle at any time and not get bored.

@TheShadowScout

I... am not quite sure what you mean to say with that... tho I kinda suspect you are not saying what you meant to say here.

If you include what I said afterwards, I already explained why. Why: there are people who would buy a class change but NOT make an alt and buy upgrades for the alt.

But I am realist enough to realize that whining "Gimme, gimme" won't change anything.
What might is pointing out how giving us this might benefit their bottom line.

People will pay money for the class change. That is the benefit. People are already saying they won’t make an alt, they are too attached to their character, their achievements and quests or whatever little thing. They already say it’s not about the leveling or anything. It’s about their very precious achievements and sentimental value in their character. Adding a buyable class change opens up new profits from these kinds of people. That is the benefit.

That's not really much of an issue.
Yeah, sure it would be difficult! But... its data. Just data. Changing data is easy enough, so the translation of "technical issues" would be "takes more coding time then we believe would be profitable"

Yes, I agree with that. Class change is only changing 3 skill lines, but they are having problems with it.

Wrong. I was arguing in those discussions, I remember what arguments were used. The necromancers were -always- argued against because of the -lore- and the lore alone. And about the question if its should be a class, or a skill line (and I -still- think it should have been a skill line, but ZOS choose otherwise. So that's what we got.) Noone ever argued about profitability, because -everyone- knew it would be profitable for ZOS to give people necromancy to buy. Duh!
The skyshards and skill lines were -always- argued for as "account wide" per se, and I kept saying "if they do it, they will make you pay crowns for that..." (among other arguments, I -am- definitely on the roleplayer side, and hate the kind of "I the player did it, so all my characters should get it" rule-lawyering), and look what happened!

Yes, I know about the lore issue. People also said Necromancers would just be edgy sorcs. I also know about the account wide argument. Here is what I said earlier:

I will always support pressuring ZOS to do things players want that isn’t detrimental to the game: Necromancers (happened), buyable skyshards that you’ve already completed (happened), buyable skill lines that you’ve already completed (happened), massive performance update, class change, 60 fps on XB1X and PS4 Pro... And those 3 things that happened had people arguing against them for no good reason. No necromancers because it’s somehow bad for the lore or whatever. No buying skyshards or skill lines because grinding = more money somehow.

Maybe people didn't use the profit argument on this forum for those, which I know you have been on way longer and way more often than me. On Discord a while back, we had a discussion about skyshards and skill lines. While I was grinding skyshards for a new character, I said I would rather just buy them for like 2000 crowns instead of doing them AGAIN. Same with the Psijic skill line. Then someone said that they would lose profit, so I wonder how it would lose profit, since I'm buying stuff. Of course, because when you're grinding for skyshards and the Psijic skill line on a new character, you will realize your mount is slow. Slow mount = slow grinding. Slow grinding = buy mount upgrades. Spending time on each alt = you play more and buy more things (somebody also replied to me with this on another thread a few months ago, or could've been on Reddit). Maxing your mount speed is like 6000 crowns right now? Buying all skyshards is probably more than that I think. For the case of Necromancers, it was because they have to code resurrecting dead bodies. They have to spend time and money on it. They need to spend more time and money on balance. They would have to invest in better servers because there would be performance issues with minions everywhere because he assumed Necromancers would be like Diablo necromancers. Maybe saying other "people" are using your argument is incorrect, because it's these 2 guys I've experienced. I assumed it was a common argument since it's all about profit for class change apparently.

Not "only" but... that IS the bottom line. They -have- to make a profit, that's the reason the stockholders let them make nifty games in the first place!
As for the free things... have you never seen the "free taste" offers people use to get you to buy their product? Same thing. More or less.

People who don't spend microtransactions got these mounts in the past 1 year: Psijic horse, Glowgill guar, clouded senche, and Verdant Shorn Tatooed camel. Idk if I'm missing any, but owning these mounts is already good enough. These could have been sold for crowns, but they gave them for free. Think about it. Why buy a basic mount from the Mount section or gamble for crown crate mounts when you already have 4 exotic mounts? This is generous. I buy crown crates for mounts if I like how they look, not because I get free mounts from ZOS. The glowgill guar definitely did not make me consider getting one of those Xanmeer mounts.
Also, XP, respec, and instant research scrolls are all sold on the crown store. Yet, they are given for free so often. Why give so many of them for free if profit is a concern? They should be scarce if they want people buying them off the crown store, especially XP scrolls for leveling alts. I still have a lot of free XP scrolls in my bank (not the ones from crown crates, I convert those to gems).
3 race changes and 3 name changes for free. Why even buy more? That's already more than enough.
Then there's Murkmire and Vvardenfell (for new purchases). Getting these for free is not a "free taste." They gave the whole thing away.
What I said was that ZOS doesn't -only- see profit, they also give benefits to the players. It's not only profit and no additional benefits to the players. You're only thinking about shareholder theory, but what about stakeholder theory? And as if adding a class change token at a price would devastate their profits.
The only "free tastes" I can think of are free crown crates and free ESO+ weekends.

Lets take a step back, and look. Skyshards, skill lines. People kept arguing for them being account wide. Now ZOS is selling them as account mirroring. Not -that- generous, huh?

And they didn't need to in the first place. Many other players can choose to ignore them and grind like usual, or live with the base amount of skill points. This is one thing that is not so generous, but it doesn't make what I listed disappear.

Do you think the companies do things as "social responsibility" or in the hopes of getting more profit in the end from the PR value? I know what I think, and I suspect its pretty obvious... but then, I have been around a while, seen much and heard more, and thus have a pretty dim view of human ethics. Especially when money is involved.

I already said acting in good faith can bring profits. Not always, but it happens. Not all companies gain PR value from ethical business practices too (like small businesses). Feel free to search some examples of social responsibility and business ethics in general. Lots of great and smart examples. No need to have a dim view on human ethics when all the bad examples end up in the news.

And thus I am saying, its -exactly- those considerations that will guide ZOS decisions. How much of an investment, how much of a direct profit from selling class change to those who would buy it at the prices they would charge, how much of a loss in other categories if people don't buy shortcuts but a class change instead...

Again, this is assuming the people who only want one character and want to change their class would even make a new character and buy all the upgrades. And realistically, do a lot of people even buy those upgrades? Of the 9 characters I have, I haven't spent a penny on upgrades. I ended up not buying skyshards too since I didn't start grinding until their mount speed was at least 40.

Are you saying they should not care about that, and just give you what you argue for no matter how much a loss they might take from it? If that were the case, why do the skyshards cost crowns?

Which is why people are saying they want class change at a cost, not for free. There will have profit. And it's not like people who actively purchase those upgrades would stop once class change comes out. People who make alts do not need a class change. Let's be realistic. Not a lot of people are going to be willing to buy all the upgrades for their new alt. And people who want a class change will buy a class change. For some, one is a better deal than the other. Why spend hundreds of dollars on a bunch of separate upgrades that you have to buy individually and give up all your quest progress, achievements, and titles for a new character, when you can spend a "low" amount of 5000 crowns on a class change! Decoy effect.

Thing is, the developers are responsible to their bosses, and their bosses responsible to the shareholders, and those want to see some return for the investment, with added profit. So those considerations WILL be valid first and foremost, and that is why we got a crown store, and why we get more costumes, mounts and crown crates rather then DLCs, and why skyshard mirroring and riding training comes at a crown price instead of being "account wide" as the "gimme crowd" kept wailing.
And I accept that as the price of doing business.
And I prefer that to the suits in charge shutting down the game and selling off the assets.

There is no "gimme crowd" when people are offering their money. The "gimme crowd" would be people demanding better daily rewards. ZOS won't be shutting down their game and filing for bankruptcy for selling a simple class change token at several thousand crowns. They aren't losing money if they're giving a "better" deal (for some players) when that better deal is still a lot of money. They didn't shut down their servers when they gave away DLC's, XP, respec, and instant research scrolls, mounts, costumes, etc etc. They won't be shutting down their servers for offering a class change token at a price.

Conclusion:
You think, "I think class change is nice, but we need to convince them by offering alternatives that gives them more profit!"
I think, adding class change will bring profit anyway. It opens up additional profit from people who play one character and want a class change, or people who have alts and want a class change for their main. When the class change didn't exist, there was no profit from the class change. Class change will not interfere with upgrade sales. As with all things expensive, most people won't be so inclined to spend that much money for small convenience. And the profit from upgrading is more likely to come from super active hardcore players with many alts than the casual player who wants a class change. Even players who have many alts but want to change their main's class will buy a class change. And if a class change comes that is cheaper than making a new alt and irrationally buying all of the upgrades, then this better deal will attract more people to make a purchase. This is where the profit is and I keep saying it. You say my question is wrong. The correct question is "will this bring profit?" Answer = yes.
I don't know why I'm typing so much for a friggin class change token.

https://twitch.tv/videos/364505191?sr=a&t=7581s At 2:06:21. It's hard to do and something they won't do "right now" six months ago. I'm going to guess that this means they looked into it? Maybe they're looking into it now since it's been months later? Idk

Vlad9425

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

So "achievements" seems to be the only argument you people can put forward in favor of this class change token so what you're basically saying is you completed an achievement on some overpowered build which ended up presumably getting nerfed or changed not to your liking so now you can switch to another class and pretend that you completed that achievement on that class? That's fake. What about people who actually grinded that achievement on that class? Here's an example: I go into vMA on a Stam Sorc which I consider the easiest class to do vMA on and I get Flawless Conqueror, I then decide oh I want to pretend I did that on a Magden so I'll now change class to a Magden and keep the Flawless Conqueror title even though I never even did vMA on that class. This scenario applies to any achievement in the game and it actually undermines the effort people put into grinding achievements on a specific class. Class change is a bad idea and should never be added to the game. Level a new character.

What does that get you? Lying about your achievements? Who really cares about other players achievements? Do you see a Flawless Magden and fall at the ground kissing their feet?

People want to keep their achievements because they are their achievements. They have memories on that character and a lot of time invested and don't want to start over.

In a game where titles and skins are sold for gold, who takes other players achievements seriously? I only care about what I did.

It isn't just achievements. It's the time. It's the memories. It's the connection they have to this character they created. They are more than just stupidly named toons to some of us.

If you are seriously worried that someone is going to brag about a game and get undue praise, you have weird priorities.

And once again, what does lying about achievements get you?

Your argument is weak. You want a class change token because you're either too lazy to level another character (inexcusable) or you don't respect the fact that people grinded certain achievements on a specific class. The whole idea of even having classes would be pointless if they introduced your idea. It is not healthy for the game and is one of the worst "token" suggestions I've ever seen.

Jeremy

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

So "achievements" seems to be the only argument you people can put forward in favor of this class change token so what you're basically saying is you completed an achievement on some overpowered build which ended up presumably getting nerfed or changed not to your liking so now you can switch to another class and pretend that you completed that achievement on that class? That's fake. What about people who actually grinded that achievement on that class? Here's an example: I go into vMA on a Stam Sorc which I consider the easiest class to do vMA on and I get Flawless Conqueror, I then decide oh I want to pretend I did that on a Magden so I'll now change class to a Magden and keep the Flawless Conqueror title even though I never even did vMA on that class. This scenario applies to any achievement in the game and it actually undermines the effort people put into grinding achievements on a specific class. Class change is a bad idea and should never be added to the game. Level a new character.

What does that get you? Lying about your achievements? Who really cares about other players achievements? Do you see a Flawless Magden and fall at the ground kissing their feet?

People want to keep their achievements because they are their achievements. They have memories on that character and a lot of time invested and don't want to start over.

In a game where titles and skins are sold for gold, who takes other players achievements seriously? I only care about what I did.

It isn't just achievements. It's the time. It's the memories. It's the connection they have to this character they created. They are more than just stupidly named toons to some of us.

If you are seriously worried that someone is going to brag about a game and get undue praise, you have weird priorities.

And once again, what does lying about achievements get you?

Your argument is weak. You want a class change token because you're either too lazy to level another character (inexcusable) or you don't respect the fact that people grinded certain achievements on a specific class. The whole idea of even having classes would be pointless if they introduced your idea. It is not healthy for the game and is one of the worst "token" suggestions I've ever seen.

This game is massive and doing everything over again would literally take me years.

I don't think anyone is complaining about just getting a character to 50. That is pretty easy. But when it comes to getting all your achievements, guilds, books, clearing all of the content again - it's a huge undertaking no one should have to repeat simply because ZoS changed someone's main character's class in such a way they no longer enjoy playing it and want to become something else.

Dusk_Coven

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Your argument is weak. You want a class change token because you're either too lazy

Case 1: You are on PC
Do you use AddOns? Then you're inexcusably lazy too.

Case 2: You are not on PC
Do you look up stuff on the internet about the game or discover everything by yourself? LAZY!
Do you ask people questions to shortcut your learning process? LAZY!

You are trying to say grinding content = not lazy. But in doing so you open up all sorts of other things that are arguably "lazy".
"Laziness" is an extremely relative term with a very elusive benchmark and too many ways to frame. And as such is very hard to actually use in this argument.

Even the thread about buying carries for achievements -- how lazy is that? -- is getting arguments and counterarguments.

idk

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

So "achievements" seems to be the only argument you people can put forward in favor of this class change token so what you're basically saying is you completed an achievement on some overpowered build which ended up presumably getting nerfed or changed not to your liking so now you can switch to another class and pretend that you completed that achievement on that class? That's fake. What about people who actually grinded that achievement on that class? Here's an example: I go into vMA on a Stam Sorc which I consider the easiest class to do vMA on and I get Flawless Conqueror, I then decide oh I want to pretend I did that on a Magden so I'll now change class to a Magden and keep the Flawless Conqueror title even though I never even did vMA on that class. This scenario applies to any achievement in the game and it actually undermines the effort people put into grinding achievements on a specific class. Class change is a bad idea and should never be added to the game. Level a new character.

What does that get you? Lying about your achievements? Who really cares about other players achievements? Do you see a Flawless Magden and fall at the ground kissing their feet?

People want to keep their achievements because they are their achievements. They have memories on that character and a lot of time invested and don't want to start over.

In a game where titles and skins are sold for gold, who takes other players achievements seriously? I only care about what I did.

It isn't just achievements. It's the time. It's the memories. It's the connection they have to this character they created. They are more than just stupidly named toons to some of us.

If you are seriously worried that someone is going to brag about a game and get undue praise, you have weird priorities.

And once again, what does lying about achievements get you?

Your argument is weak. You want a class change token because you're either too lazy to level another character (inexcusable) or you don't respect the fact that people grinded certain achievements on a specific class. The whole idea of even having classes would be pointless if they introduced your idea. It is not healthy for the game and is one of the worst "token" suggestions I've ever seen.

It does not matter what their argument is as long as it does not attempt to address the reasons Zos is not interested in providing a class change mechanic. There is a reason and I have an idea of thee possible justifications and my guess is these people can figure them out and address them as they are pretty obvious.

Dusk_Coven

This is one of those threads that go nowhere.

There are really two stakeholder groups here:

(A) The people who want it. Whatever their reasons, they would like to have a product like this.
(B) People who can make it. Whatever their reasons, they will or will not make it.
If profit is the only reason, I'm sure ZOS wouldn't do anything to alienate their customer base. Like, oh, not fix bugs that make the game unplayable for some. Or dump a ***-ton of balance changes.

Then there's a third group:
(C) People who don't want to see this product produced.
However, what group C doesn't realize is that they are actually irrelevant.
In the real world, there are tons of products that people consider stupid or bad. Some of them might even be so stupid/bad that even the people who made them agrees they are stupid/bad. Fortunately, most of these products have no impact on the lives of Group C people -- Group C people are not stakeholders no matter what they think about the product. Therefore their opinions are not relevant.
But they still got produced. Because *some* of these stupid/bad things are actually NOT stupid/bad to some people.
Or maybe they are stupid/bad to everyone and they just didn't sell. Oh well. (often because Group A and Group B turned out to be the same and they were stupid).

So all group A needs to do is suggest it to group B candidates and wait for something to happen (or not).
Discussion with Group C is irrelevant, EXCEPT in the case that Group C is also Group B.

TheShadowScout

Welkynar wrote: »

there are people who would buy a class change but NOT make an alt and buy upgrades for the alt.

That makes more sense now.
I am more worried about them worrying that there might be people who would buy the alt upgrades, but would buy class change instead if it was available.
And we know there are those, who are impatient, and have the cash, and wanna try necromancing in PvP or whatever...

Welkynar wrote: »

People will pay money for the class change. That is the benefit. People are already saying they won’t make an alt, they are too attached to their character, their achievements and quests or whatever little thing. They already say it’s not about the leveling or anything. It’s about their very precious achievements and sentimental value in their character. Adding a buyable class change opens up new profits from these kinds of people. That is the benefit.

But is it enough of one?
Enough to be worth the coding time? Enough to be worth the missed profits through selling those people alt upgrades?
I mean, from their current stance, it does not look like they think so, huh?

Welkynar wrote: »

Maybe people didn't use the profit argument on this forum for those, which I know you have been on way longer and way more often than me.

Nope. They were ALL about "give us account wide everything" (so we can grind to 50 in a day and have it all) or something along those lines. And when ZOS listened... it came at a price, in crowns and a hefty one at that if you add it all up. And I was like... "I don't wanna say I told you so but... I Told You So!"

Welkynar wrote: »

Then someone said that they would lose profit, so I wonder how it would lose profit, since I'm buying stuff.

Now THAT was the wrong argument. That was the argument made sometimes in those discussions, that free "account wide" stuff would hurt their profits because then people play less, and the more they play the more chances they might spend crowns for shortcuts.
And as seems obvious... the solution was to -sell- more shortcuts.
And I am completely okay with that, despite having argued viciously against all things "account-wide"... because the more money people spend at ESO, the soonerthey finance new content, and the healthier the game gets.

As such, I am kinda on your side when it comes to Class Change.

I just say, arguing how it would be a benefit to the players to allow them to bypass all the alting... without considering how expensive this might end up becoming... and thus how few players would actually spring for it... is maybe not the best way.

Welkynar wrote: »

...Necromancers would be like Diablo necromancers.

Hey, they kinda are in many ways. Too many ways for my ESO-lorewatcher mind. Except the "army of darkness" thing, thank the divines! But hey... if they blow a skill line up to a full class, they have to stea... uhm... borrow inspiration from elsewhere, right?
(I still think if they had to have it a class, they could at -least- have made it with -some- variation. A nercomancy skill line, a plague skill line and maybe a mysticism skill line or whatever... alas...)

Welkynar wrote: »

These could have been sold for crowns, but they gave them for free.

Not quite. They gave them for log-ins. Which is kinda free, but not exactly, as they do gain benefits from more people logging in in that their game gets more recognition because of higher "traffic"... its a PR thing.
Also... they might sell those things yet. For those who missed them. Someday.

Welkynar wrote: »

I buy crown crates for mounts if I like how they look...

Yeah, I also buy when I like the looks, when it fits some character idea of mine...
Elder Fashion Online! The -true- endgame!

Welkynar wrote: »

The glowgill guar definitely did not make me consider getting one of those Xanmeer mounts.

I am pretty sure there will be some who did. Its always that way, some get a free mount, go like "why doesn't this come in black" and go keep their eyes on the crown store until they shell out for that black guar to fit their argonian goth character... I did notice the mounts they did give out were... ehm... a bit on the "specialized" side... Still, gifted guars and all that!

Welkynar wrote: »

Also, XP, respec, and instant research scrolls are all sold on the crown store. Yet, they are given for free so often. Why give so many of them for free if profit is a concern?

Check how many are given freely, and how many one of the impatient would need to speed-buildup their alt. Notice something?

Welkynar wrote: »

3 race changes and 3 name changes for free. Why even buy more? That's already more than enough.

To offset all the bad feelings from a -huge- racial "rebalancing"? Duh!

Of course, for newer players it was a grand gift! For some of the older PvP-hounds who want that last percentage point of super effectiveness... well, I saw their whining threads here on the forums, so I reckon... not so much?

Welkynar wrote: »

And realistically, do a lot of people even buy those upgrades?

Good question. I suspect the people at ZOS are also eagerly awaiting the answer!

Welkynar wrote: »

Of the 9 characters I have, I haven't spent a penny on upgrades.

Same, and with 18 characters. And never will. If I can play for it, I don't wanna pay for it! (some PvP colors -could- tempt me tho if they allowed those for purchase...)
And yeah, that also means I do all my mounts the long and hard way.

Welkynar wrote: »

Which is why people are saying they want class change at a cost, not for free. There will have profit.

The "at a cost" is understood, because there is no friggin other way we could ever get it.
And as I keep saying, its a question of how much of a profit at how much of an investment and potential loss of alt upgrade sales. I myself kinda hope they will think about it once they see how the alt upgrades do...

Welkynar wrote: »

Why spend hundreds of dollars on a bunch of separate upgrades that you have to buy individually and give up all your quest progress, achievements, and titles for a new character, when you can spend a "low" amount of 5000 crowns on a class change!

Thanks for pointing out -exactly- what I keep mentioning I suspect ZOS may be worried about!

Welkynar wrote: »

There is no "gimme crowd" when people are offering their money.

Agreed. But read it again:

...and why skyshard mirroring and riding training comes at a crown price instead of being "account wide" as the "gimme crowd" kept wailing.

...and notice I am referring to those who want everything account wide at no extra charge, as they have been whining for in numerous threads in the past.
It was NOT meant for those willing to pay for what they want like you! Cause that's the right way, putting ones money where their mouth is.

Welkynar wrote: »

The "gimme crowd" would be people demanding better daily rewards.

And those who despite all the evidence to the contrady -still- demand skill points to become account wide. We had one such thread just the other day...

Welkynar wrote: »

I think, adding class change will bring profit anyway.

As I said.
Will it?
Enough to balance the investment and other considerations?
Maybe, maybe not. I suspect they might not be overly enthusiastic about the thing because it promises far less sales then a nifty new mount or costume...

Welkynar wrote: »

I'm going to guess that this means they looked into it? Maybe they're looking into it now since it's been months later? Idk

I suspect they did look into it. Decided it won't be worth the effort - for now. And went with alt upgrades instead. Now we have those... so maybe next year they might review the topoic again, who knows? I for one hope they will. But I won't hold my breath...

wolf486

Class change always made more sense than race change IMO. I stopped playing my main as I got bored with NB, but loved my character still. Would have been nice to change classes and continue my adventures with him.

Vahrokh

ghastley wrote: »

The OP can be paraphrased as "I put all my eggs in one basket, bail me out".

There has to be one unchangeable for a character, and in ESO, it's the class. You can change race, gender, stats, skills, and everything else, but class defines the character.

The whole point of alternate characters is that you can make one (or more) of each class and swap between them at will. Each of those can be rebuilt as much as you want, but ESO's character swap is all the class change you're going to get. Log out, log in, done.

Yes please let's create a dozen hm vMOL worthy alts. Let's see how quick and easy it is.

priforce

No class changes. I have 17 of 18 fully leveled characters within their own unique aspects to the game. I only do support roles. So you're saying you want my healer to carry pve gear, pvp gear, and tank gear?

If this is about achievements then petition about shared achievements, which is different than shared skill lines. There is a reason why vigor, purge, barrier, and other pve skills are acquired in the hame. It's because support players like myself don't make pvp a priority and it gets us to contribute towards pvp modes.

Same thing for undaunted, many of the skills support roles need are in their so we can participate and help dungeon finders.

It's balanced. I would not mess with it or be in a group that people can easily switch to being healers, suck at it, and then tell me how to play my role - which happens in other MMOs.

So "no" to class changes. Just create a new toon and team up with guildies to level them. It's much more fun that way.