Misinformation/Rumors about the new Vigor(No, Vigor is not 85% stronger)

susmitds

So I have been seeing tons of people saying how the new Resolving Vigor is 85% than the old one and how the new Vigor gives twice the healing Potential compared to the old one.

This is a ridiculous statement though. Most people are forgetting the fact even on Live, Resolving Vigor has significantly bigger tooltip than Base Vigor.

Here are some comparisons:

Current Stamblade PvP build

Live

Resolving Vigor - 13781 over 5 secs. HPS: 2756.2
Echoing Vigor - 10438 over 5 secs. HPS - 2087.6

PTS

Resolving Vigor - 18684 over 5 secs. HPS: 3736.8
Echoing Vigor - 18684 over 10 secs. HPS - 1868.4

Current StamDK PvP build

Live

Resolving Vigor - 23667 over 5 secs. HPS: 4733.4
Echoing Vigor - 17824 over 5 secs. HPS - 3564.8

PTS

Resolving Vigor - 31548 over 5 secs. HPS: 6309.6
Echoing Vigor - 31548 over 10 secs. HPS - 3154.8

Comparison to

PTS standard MagDK build

Rapid Regen - 28714 over 5 secs. HPS: 5742.8
Mutagen - 28714 over 10 secs+17801 Burst Heal. HPS - 2871.4+17801 Burst Heal

PTS standard MagNB build

Rapid Regen - 20224 over 5 secs. HPS: 4044.8
Mutagen - 20224 over 10 secs+ 12538 Burst Heal. HPS - 2022.4+12538 Burst Heal

Echoing Vigor got a 12% nerf compared to that on live.

As you can see the heals are quite balanced to each other. Whether they are all very high and needs to be balanced is another thing all together.

Lord_Eomer

susmitds wrote: »

So I have been seeing tons of people saying how the new Resolving Vigor is 85% than the old one and how the new Vigor gives twice the healing Potential compared to the old one.

This is a ridiculous statement though. Most people are forgetting the fact even on Live, Resolving Vigor has significantly bigger tooltip than Base Vigor.

Here are some comparisons:

Current Stamblade PvP build

Live

Resolving Vigor - 13781 over 5 secs. HPS: 2756.2
Echoing Vigor - 10438 over 5 secs. HPS - 2087.6

PTS

Resolving Vigor - 18684 over 5 secs. HPS: 3736.8
Echoing Vigor - 18684 over 10 secs. HPS - 1868.4

Current StamDK PvP build

Live

Resolving Vigor - 23667 over 5 secs. HPS: 4733.4
Echoing Vigor - 17824 over 5 secs. HPS - 3564.8

PTS

Resolving Vigor - 31548 over 5 secs. HPS: 6309.6
Echoing Vigor - 31548 over 10 secs. HPS - 3154.8

Comparison to

PTS standard MagDK build

Rapid Regen - 28714 over 5 secs. HPS: 5742.8
Mutagen - 28714 over 10 secs+17801 Burst Heal. HPS - 2871.4+17801 Burst Heal

PTS standard MagNB build

Rapid Regen - 20224 over 5 secs. HPS: 4044.8
Mutagen - 20224 over 10 secs+ 12538 Burst Heal. HPS - 2022.4+12538 Burst Heal

As you can see the heals are quite balanced to each other. Whether they are all very high and needs to be balanced is another thing all together.

Dam, I can see now Vigor will create too much trouble in PVP.

Magicka not solely rely on Rapid Regen but Stam every build rely on Vigor. Should not have too much healing in PVP whether it is Vigor or Rapid Regen

Forum will be rushed with nerf requests for Vigor, its clearly too much heals and stam DK will be un-killable.

Also Rapid Regen requires restro to slot but vigor just one skill!

Iskiab

Weird question, but why is stamdk so much higher then stamnb, all because of healing passives?

Lord_Eomer

Iskiab wrote: »

Weird question, but why is stamdk so much higher then stamnb, all because of healing passives?

Because of Major Mending, Minor Vitality buff easy access and passives.

susmitds

Iskiab wrote: »

Weird question, but why is stamdk so much higher then stamnb, all because of healing passives?

Major Mending and higher weapon damage/stamina compared to standard 2h/Bow build which is stacking penetration and stamina recovery. You can get by with much lesser tooltip Vigor on Stamblade compared to other classes and stack penetration etc, due to Cloak.

Derra

The issue with the resto heals is that they still have their old wonky smart healing function - while their design changed massively to become more of a bursty hot and hitting only 1 target.

RR + mutagen are not going to heal the cast a lot of times which is a major concern when comparing them to vigor (because they´ll now be used in a similar way).
If you use the abilities as they are on pts you want them to heal you - not maybe heal you or someone else by chance.

nsmurfer

Derra wrote: »

The issue with the resto heals is that they still have their old wonky smart healing function - while their design changed massively to become more of a bursty hot and hitting only 1 target.

RR + mutagen are not going to heal the cast a lot of times which is a major concern when comparing them to vigor (because they´ll now be used in a similar way).
If you use the abilities as they are on pts you want them to heal you - not maybe heal you or someone else by chance.

Well compared to Stam, magicka does access to far more self-healing skills. I think people are not realizing how ridiculously broken MagDK, Magcro and Magplar will be with the new Mutagen/Rapid Regen stacking on top of their class heals.

Iskiab

Derra wrote: »

The issue with the resto heals is that they still have their old wonky smart healing function - while their design changed massively to become more of a bursty hot and hitting only 1 target.

RR + mutagen are not going to heal the cast a lot of times which is a major concern when comparing them to vigor (because they´ll now be used in a similar way).
If you use the abilities as they are on pts you want them to heal you - not maybe heal you or someone else by chance.

Use mutagen then. Mutagen looks good enough to me and 10 seconds is better then 5.

Vapirko

Thank you.

Iskiab

susmitds wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Weird question, but why is stamdk so much higher then stamnb, all because of healing passives?

Major Mending and higher weapon damage/stamina compared to standard 2h/Bow build which is stacking penetration and stamina recovery. You can get by with much lesser tooltip Vigor on Stamblade compared to other classes and stack penetration etc, due to Cloak.

Quick question, how many Siphoning skills did you have slotted and did you include minor mending on the magNB total?

Saril_Durzam

Pvp wise, both are similar. Altough it forces you to slot Resto instead of s&B which is meta right now.

What about Pve? Noone will use a Resto backbar, would mean a heavy loss of DPS.

Vigor keeps being best selfheal by miles, just because it´s flexibility. Oh! And cost. 2k for 2,7k. Important aswell.

ProzTh3Almighty

I say leave vigor alone an nerf major mending from classes. Put it somewhere where healers can have easy access but theresno need to have easy major mending for all specs of a class. Looking at you DK & Warden. Just balance all sources of healing done across classes minor mending or a non buff 8% from earthen hearts etc etc

BattleAxe

Perhaps people will now understand that vigor does not really need a change. Those who still argue for a vigor change to me seem like they just want to kill stam builds thru out the whole game. However I’m not opposed to magicka getting some type of increase to their defenses as I suggested elsewhere on another post why not remove the duration on damage shields and have it while a damage shield holds damage goes Is dealt to your magicka instead as this would mean magicka gets a strong defense but defending to much will prevent them from going offensive. This proposal would also effect stam as well being able to use damage shields as well just to lesser effect

susmitds

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

What about Pve? Noone will use a Resto backbar, would mean a heavy loss of DPS.

You shouldn't need anything more than class heals and Annulment on any PvE mag char(every mag char has some kind of class heal).

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Vigor keeps being best selfheal by miles, just because it´s flexibility. Oh! And cost. 2k for 2,7k. Important aswell.

Regen is 2.7k and Vigor is 2.3k. This is equivalent to the 15% cost reduction every stam skill gets, meaning they are equal cost.

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Vigor keeps being best selfheal by miles, just because it´s flexibility. Oh! And cost. 2k for 2,7k. Important aswell.

Vigor is supposed to be the best self heal in the game as it is the only reliable universal stam heal. Magicka got an equivalent but you should not expect it to be better than Vigor or equal to it, as magicka already access to offensive stat shields and class heals.

susmitds

Iskiab wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Weird question, but why is stamdk so much higher then stamnb, all because of healing passives?

Major Mending and higher weapon damage/stamina compared to standard 2h/Bow build which is stacking penetration and stamina recovery. You can get by with much lesser tooltip Vigor on Stamblade compared to other classes and stack penetration etc, due to Cloak.

Quick question, how many Siphoning skills did you have slotted and did you include minor mending on the magNB total?

The stamNB build has no Siphoning skill and I can get upto 29k tooltip on Vigor by changing builds(I can go even higher but then those builds would be meme useless builds).
The magNB build has three siphoning skills but no Minor Mending. It is a standard melee magblade build and you can expect between 18k-24k tooltip depending on your CP and passives. Real healing builds will get higher tooltips I expect.

Derra

Iskiab wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The issue with the resto heals is that they still have their old wonky smart healing function - while their design changed massively to become more of a bursty hot and hitting only 1 target.

RR + mutagen are not going to heal the cast a lot of times which is a major concern when comparing them to vigor (because they´ll now be used in a similar way).
If you use the abilities as they are on pts you want them to heal you - not maybe heal you or someone else by chance.

Use mutagen then. Mutagen looks good enough to me and 10 seconds is better then 5.

You saw that i spoke about both morphs in my post yes? Just making sure you actually read what i wrote.

J18696

Did you have any armor on with those tooltips seem low my vigor on pts with mending was 40k

susmitds

J18696 wrote: »

Did you have any armor on with those tooltips seem low my vigor on pts with mending was 40k

Yup. Then again I have Spriggan, Bloodspawn and Seventh Legion unprocced on both stam chars with zero CP in healing done. You should in general a 33-35% higher tooltip in PTS. 40K on PTS likely means, you have very high tooltip on live as well.

Aedaryl

susmitds wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Did you have any armor on with those tooltips seem low my vigor on pts with mending was 40k

Yup. Then again I have Spriggan, Bloodspawn and Seventh Legion unprocced on both stam chars with zero CP in healing done. You should in general a 33-35% higher tooltip in PTS. 40K on PTS likely means, you have very high tooltip on live as well.

Don't show number on bad build please, show with the realistics buff and meta gear.

Lord_Eomer

Aedaryl wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Did you have any armor on with those tooltips seem low my vigor on pts with mending was 40k

Yup. Then again I have Spriggan, Bloodspawn and Seventh Legion unprocced on both stam chars with zero CP in healing done. You should in general a 33-35% higher tooltip in PTS. 40K on PTS likely means, you have very high tooltip on live as well.

Don't show number on bad build please, show with the realistics buff and meta gear.

This ^

Rianai

nsmurfer wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The issue with the resto heals is that they still have their old wonky smart healing function - while their design changed massively to become more of a bursty hot and hitting only 1 target.

RR + mutagen are not going to heal the cast a lot of times which is a major concern when comparing them to vigor (because they´ll now be used in a similar way).
If you use the abilities as they are on pts you want them to heal you - not maybe heal you or someone else by chance.

Well compared to Stam, magicka does access to far more self-healing skills. I think people are not realizing how ridiculously broken MagDK, Magcro and Magplar will be with the new Mutagen/Rapid Regen stacking on top of their class heals.

But magicka doesn't have access to more bar slots. Most mag builds do not run rr/mutagen right now, only on magblade i see it sometimes. So they will have to give up something else in return for that better healing. And it is not like vigor is the only heal for stam builds, nor have stam build worse healing than mag in general, despite having less healing skills. Quality > Quantity.

But generally i'm not a fan of those buffs to (self) healing. I expect to see a lot more boring turtle builds - mag and stam alike.

susmitds

Aedaryl wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Did you have any armor on with those tooltips seem low my vigor on pts with mending was 40k

Yup. Then again I have Spriggan, Bloodspawn and Seventh Legion unprocced on both stam chars with zero CP in healing done. You should in general a 33-35% higher tooltip in PTS. 40K on PTS likely means, you have very high tooltip on live as well.

Don't show number on bad build please, show with the realistics buff and meta gear.

@Aedaryl You must be kidding, xD. Spriggan, Bloodspawn and Seventh Legion are very much meta gear. All standard PvP buffs are also applied.

nsmurfer

Aedaryl wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Did you have any armor on with those tooltips seem low my vigor on pts with mending was 40k

Yup. Then again I have Spriggan, Bloodspawn and Seventh Legion unprocced on both stam chars with zero CP in healing done. You should in general a 33-35% higher tooltip in PTS. 40K on PTS likely means, you have very high tooltip on live as well.

Don't show number on bad build please, show with the realistics buff and meta gear.

Did you just call the most common three sets in PvP bad build?

killingspreeb16_ESO

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Pvp wise, both are similar. Altough it forces you to slot Resto instead of s&B which is meta right now.

What about Pve? Noone will use a Resto backbar, would mean a heavy loss of DPS.

Vigor keeps being best selfheal by miles, just because it´s flexibility. Oh! And cost. 2k for 2,7k. Important aswell.

Again with this miss information about the cost there is the screen on the other thread aswell right now.

it's 2k of vigor vs 2.2k of rapid regen,the heal is basically the same and get better if you proc major mending or when you are at 30% hp.
And again for idk how many time magika got a bigger stat pool than stamina.

DocFrost72

Aedaryl wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Did you have any armor on with those tooltips seem low my vigor on pts with mending was 40k

Yup. Then again I have Spriggan, Bloodspawn and Seventh Legion unprocced on both stam chars with zero CP in healing done. You should in general a 33-35% higher tooltip in PTS. 40K on PTS likely means, you have very high tooltip on live as well.

Don't show number on bad build please, show with the realistics buff and meta gear.

Show yours. I'll show mine (on a pve build).

Edit since I know no one is going to show their stats and active buffs...

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I got excited seeing that 52k tooltip screenie someone took. So I went and, without changing my build AT ALL, got the before and afters.

Before:



After:



and for context since I'm not a hack, here's my character sheet (note; no major buffs at time of the sheet: no brutality or savagery):



Seems to me that it IS an 85% buff from the base value, as was stated. From what you have live on resolving though, you're discussing a very rough estimate of a 42% buff.

Anyone with a 52k screenshot wanna post their character sheet and list of buffs plox?

No?

Didn't think so.

I've not seen anyone show their "40-50k vigor" character.

I've a hunch that's because they have major-minor mending, probably vitality pots, and some other neat buffs on.

Aka "fake" builds that you'd never run and have all those buffs on.

J18696

This buff to vigor is roughly combining forward hot and vigor together but I have seen some crazy vigor tooltips on pts I've seen a few people with 50 to 70k tooltips really pushing it

susmitds

@J18696 True. Most of the ridiculous tooltips are made by people stacking everything into healing done and weapon damage, with every healing buff in the game, just to get the biggest possible Tooltip possible. Not really realistic builds.

Rikumaru

J18696 wrote: »

This buff to vigor is roughly combining forward hot and vigor together but I have seen some crazy vigor tooltips on pts I've seen a few people with 50 to 70k tooltips really pushing it

Anyone can make a tooltip build.




New vigor is perfectly fine for healing, it's a 50% buff compared to live and rally / FM HoT was removed. Completely in line with RR / mutagen.

nsmurfer

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

Did you have any armor on with those tooltips seem low my vigor on pts with mending was 40k

Yup. Then again I have Spriggan, Bloodspawn and Seventh Legion unprocced on both stam chars with zero CP in healing done. You should in general a 33-35% higher tooltip in PTS. 40K on PTS likely means, you have very high tooltip on live as well.

Don't show number on bad build please, show with the realistics buff and meta gear.

This ^

I love how some people expose themselves.

Saril_Durzam

susmitds wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

What about Pve? Noone will use a Resto backbar, would mean a heavy loss of DPS.

You shouldn't need anything more than class heals and Annulment on any PvE mag char(every mag char has some kind of class heal).

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Vigor keeps being best selfheal by miles, just because it´s flexibility. Oh! And cost. 2k for 2,7k. Important aswell.

Regen is 2.7k and Vigor is 2.3k. This is equivalent to the 15% cost reduction every stam skill gets, meaning they are equal cost.

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Vigor keeps being best selfheal by miles, just because it´s flexibility. Oh! And cost. 2k for 2,7k. Important aswell.

Vigor is supposed to be the best self heal in the game as it is the only reliable universal stam heal. Magicka got an equivalent but you should not expect it to be better than Vigor or equal to it, as magicka already access to offensive stat shields and class heals.

Humm i have seen tooltips of a 2k stam Vigor. Will check it later...
Class heals... depending on class. The classes that dont have a good class heal get a bit spoiled. Right now my Sorc wont have any reliable self heal apart from Matriarch which is a 2 slots heal that noone will use.

susmitds

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

What about Pve? Noone will use a Resto backbar, would mean a heavy loss of DPS.

You shouldn't need anything more than class heals and Annulment on any PvE mag char(every mag char has some kind of class heal).

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Vigor keeps being best selfheal by miles, just because it´s flexibility. Oh! And cost. 2k for 2,7k. Important aswell.

Regen is 2.7k and Vigor is 2.3k. This is equivalent to the 15% cost reduction every stam skill gets, meaning they are equal cost.

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Vigor keeps being best selfheal by miles, just because it´s flexibility. Oh! And cost. 2k for 2,7k. Important aswell.

Vigor is supposed to be the best self heal in the game as it is the only reliable universal stam heal. Magicka got an equivalent but you should not expect it to be better than Vigor or equal to it, as magicka already access to offensive stat shields and class heals.

Humm i have seen tooltips of a 2k stam Vigor. Will check it later...
Class heals... depending on class. The classes that dont have a good class heal get a bit spoiled. Right now my Sorc wont have any reliable self heal apart from Matriarch which is a 2 slots heal that noone will use.

That's including Medium armor/race passives. Same thing is valid for Light armor and race.

Power Surge is a great self heal though.