Major Clunkiness Issues with Hidden Blade (DW skill and morphs) tested on PTS (Major Brutality srce)

nsmurfer

Tl;Dr - The new ways to gain Major Brutality with DW skill Hidden Blade is extremely clunky and unviable in PvP

One of the major issue of stamina PvP build variety is how 2H is enforced on any Templar, Necromancer and NB simply because of the Major Brutality buff. There are no generic Major Brutality buff skills outside class skills and weapon skills in the game, in spite of it, the single most needed buff in the game.

For classes without Major Brutality in class access, you get locked to 2H for the Momentum skill(which now gives Major Brutality, Evasion, Burst Heal/Snare Removal) simply because how ineffective other sources of Major Brutality are:

• Weapon Power Pot: You locked out of all other Potion variations needed for PvP like Detect Pot, Immovable Pot, Invisibility, which severely decreases PvP effectiveness
• Dreugh King Slayer: Weaker compared to its magicka counterpart and was nerfed severely few patches ago. Has a waste set bonus of crit chance, which is the worst bonus for PvP.

This limits the number of proper Stamplar, Stamcro and Stamblade builds without 2H a lot.

The source of Major Brutality of DW on live is Hidden Blade, which requires you to hit an enemy to get it. This was already a very clunky method to keep Major Brutality up. Without Major Brutality, our healing from HoTs drops as well (keep in mind, without 2H, we don't have a non-targeted burst heal, so we rely on HoTs on non-2H builds.

However, on PTS, this is much much worse, the process of gaining Major Brutality is now a convoluted multi-step process, which is different on both morphs but equally ridiculous.

1. Shrouded Daggers involves first debuffing a target with a mark which does nothing but simply increase the number of effects on an enemy(which can be purged off), then running to the enemy, before the mark runs out and light attacking the target. Either of those moves can be dodged, resetting the whole process.
2. Flying Blades involves a two step process, in which you first tag the enemy with a mark, then do a clunky gap closer(think of Ambush, just with worse animation issues). Either of those moves can be dodged, resetting the whole process. The Gap-closer is off the GCD but that makes the animation even clunkier.

In the dynamic nature of PvP, none of the methods can be performed reliably. Compared to the 100% Major Brutality with 2H on my stamplar on PTS duels, my Major Brutality uptime using Shrouding Daggers was around 55% and 40% with Flying Blade, simply because it was either getting dodged or purged and the fact I had no way to gain Major Brutality when on the defensive to help boost my HoTs.

Can we please have one of the morphs turned to a Passive Buff like 2H Momentum, that can be activated without a target? It does not need to have any other special features like Evasion , Burst heal/Escape. Just Major Brutality and just some small extra to balance the skill will do great make DW viable for main bar PvP.

This will boost the viability of builds like DW/Bow or DW/S&B Stamplar, Stamcro and Stamblade a lot.

As it, the gap closer morph Flying Blades is very clunky in both animation and usability. A two-step gap-closer is very ridiculous in PvP. The old Silver Leash, which was like this, was not used at all for this reason. We already have a great Gap-Closer+CC option in the new Silver Leash(in fact, considered one of the best).

Flying Blades is as it is reduntant given that Major Brutality sources for DW will primarily be used by Stamplar, Stamcro and Stamblade. Stamblade has Ambush. Stamplar has both Silver Leash and Toppling Charge(which though uses magicka, also doubles as a fast great CC). Stamcro can cast Blastbones and immediately pull target on it, with Silver Leash similar to the Stamden combo.

Can it replaced with someone of the veins of a simple buff skill:

Steadied Blade - Gain Major Brutality and Minor Fortitude/Endurance for 30 secs.

This will go a long way to break the long-standing meta of 2H/Bow, 2H/S&B and 2H/DW for classes without Major Brutality

nsmurfer

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

nsmurfer

Also there is not simply enough Interruptable targets to justify the existence of an AoE interrupt.

Jabbs_Giggity

I approve this message

eso_lytw8

I cringed when I read the changes to hidden blade(s). It was a god send for players who could not afford to run weapon pots all the time which is the majority of the player base. It was also great spammable, could be used at range, and gave you brutality. It was one of the best feeling skills in the game...it was just fun the flip that blade out and jump into combat.

I could fully see toning down the damage on the second and third target, this skill is a beast at damage per stam when used against multi-targets. It never made sense to me that the daggers would increase in damage rather then loose momentum.

But this whole "mark" then light attack thing just sounded like they want a way to impede the skill, I can only assume to make it less useful in PVP. You can't get the brutality without coming in melee distance of your attacker and then hitting them. This whole trying to get the benefit by light attacking and hoping you hit just doesn't sound fun. Lastly, it prevents you from using a blade then switching to your bow...which is what I would do when I ran VMA. Again I assume intended for PVP purposes, but impacting PVE. Its amazing how much energy and coding they are doing to make things more difficult and less useful.

Currently I will often run regular pots, use hidden daggers instead of rending slashes and have a blast with it. Its not overpowering but it is effective for average players.

Hopefully they will reconsider.

Tommy_The_Gun

Title through...

"Major Clunkiness"

For a second I thought it is a new de-buff that I missed in the patch notes

susmitds

Requiring to damage an enemy to get the most widely used buff in the game is already ridiculous, when every single non-tank build virtually requires it to perform. They just made it even weirder and complex. It won't really be viable in a fast moving PvP meta.

Xvorg

I don't think it's too clunky. I used the previos version of silver lash some time ago and it allowed you to use another skills before the gap closer, so you can use daggers at 10 mts, use a stun or another CC, or even dodgeroll, and then use the gap closer when the enemy is not expecting it

Combining it with skills like shalks or even templars javelin seems quite strong

Abhaya

If it is as easy to weave as light attacks and does comparable or better damage then I could definitely see this getting use especially since it’s free after first cast. With how you describe it it’s just not worth the slot though. Also it could use something other than major brutality that is already widely available and often gained from other skills already. Give it a less easily aquired buff to seperate it from stuff that is already available in the other stamina weapon lines like minor berserk or major savagery.

susmitds

Abhaya wrote: »

If it is as easy to weave as light attacks and does comparable or better damage then I could definitely see this getting use especially since it’s free after first cast. With how you describe it it’s just not worth the slot though. Also it could use something other than major brutality that is already widely available and often gained from other skills already. Give it a less easily aquired buff to seperate it from stuff that is already available in the other stamina weapon lines like minor berserk or major savagery.

It is not actually weaveable. It has the exact same animation as Ambush, which was often avoided by top tier NBs, simply due to how clunky the animation compared to other gap closers.

Abhaya

susmitds wrote: »

Abhaya wrote: »

If it is as easy to weave as light attacks and does comparable or better damage then I could definitely see this getting use especially since it’s free after first cast. With how you describe it it’s just not worth the slot though. Also it could use something other than major brutality that is already widely available and often gained from other skills already. Give it a less easily aquired buff to seperate it from stuff that is already available in the other stamina weapon lines like minor berserk or major savagery.

It is not actually weaveable. It has the exact same animation as Ambush, which was often avoided by top tier NBs, simply due to how clunky the animation compared to other gap closers.

I feel like the whole point is that it’s off the GCD. If it can’t be weaved then what’s the point other than for extremely niche uses?

MashmalloMan

Abhaya wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Abhaya wrote: »

If it is as easy to weave as light attacks and does comparable or better damage then I could definitely see this getting use especially since it’s free after first cast. With how you describe it it’s just not worth the slot though. Also it could use something other than major brutality that is already widely available and often gained from other skills already. Give it a less easily aquired buff to seperate it from stuff that is already available in the other stamina weapon lines like minor berserk or major savagery.

It is not actually weaveable. It has the exact same animation as Ambush, which was often avoided by top tier NBs, simply due to how clunky the animation compared to other gap closers.

I feel like the whole point is that it’s off the GCD. If it can’t be weaved then what’s the point other than for extremely niche uses?

From my understanding on the PTS, you have to kinda treat it like a Synergy.

For example, I always try to do this:
Light Attack -> Synergy -> Skill

Instead of:
Light Attack -> Skill -> Synergy

So... how would you actually weave this ability without it feeling as clunky?

Light Attack -> Hidden Blade -> Light Attack -> (2)Hidden Blade -> Skill

Problem is.. by the time you use hidden blade the first time, there is a delay to cast it again because of the travel distance where you would use it as a gap closer. It ends up feeling like 2 GCD's anyway. You only get to properly feel it if you're in melee range which begs the question why you would need it that close to your target, it feels only slightly better than the old Silver Leash and that skill was completely dead for years.

Red_Feather

Either use a 2 hander or a class skill or a pot.

I like this change to dual wield. DW needs to be given an identity other than better at everything than anything else.

xylena_lazarow

Why not attach Major Brutality to one of the Blade Cloak morphs instead?

oXI_Viper_IXo

Yeah, this change was totally unnecessary and stupid. I'm getting pretty damn sick of them changing the way a lot of skills function at a basic level.

I can understand buffing or nerfing based on balance, but it honestly seems like they are just picking random crappy ideas out of a hat at this point.

Silence on Incap and the changes to Hidde Blade are among some of the most baffling changes to me. Stuff like this makes me seriously question if the devs have any clue what they're doing at this point.

kojou

Can we have a new debuff, called Major Clunkiness? Increases cast time on all skills by 500 ms.

oXI_Viper_IXo

kojou wrote: »

Can we have a new debuff, called Major Clunkiness? Increases cast time on all skills by 500 ms.

I believe they've added Major Clunkiness to ultimates.

Khenzy

I agree, it's a terrible skill. Just change it to a regular gap closer or VASTLY increase the animation speed.

eso_lytw8

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

Yeah, this change was totally unnecessary and stupid. I'm getting pretty damn sick of them changing the way a lot of skills function at a basic level.

I can understand buffing or nerfing based on balance, but it honestly seems like they are just picking random crappy ideas out of a hat at this point.

Silence on Incap and the changes to Hidde Blade are among some of the most baffling changes to me. Stuff like this makes me seriously question if the devs have any clue what they're doing at this point.

I could not agree more on both accounts...I'm too am fine with minor adjustments, but why are they spending time making convoluted changes to skills that don't need changing. What kind of coding is needed to make the mark work and register the light attack correctly. It won't work correctly then its 3 months to fix it.

If they want to add functionality how about make the single target version interrupt and leave the multi-target bounce hitting three targets like it already does and leave major brutality alone. What do we get is a skill that function and keeps the team from wasting time actually breaking the game. Consider how much time and energy was wasted figuring out the NB skills...do one thing, break it, have the community explain to you why what you did is wrong, then spend time figuring out how to put it back.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

I love how this ability has been a Damage spammable for like what 4 1/2 years and now ZOS is like, ummmm lets make it a utility.. WHAT???

Hidden blade and it's Morph's as they currently are, have been one of my favorite Dual wield Abilities and now its gonna be made a Utility.. are you out of your mind ZOS ????.. how about you leave the base skill the same and make one a utility as a Morph and the other as the way it currently is (Flying Blade), and if you want to remove Major Brutality from the skill, just do it.. but it is the only way Dual Wield currently gets that buff.. or just lower the damage... but to totally change the skill to a Utility, C'mon.... and after almost 5 years... I think the Combat team is going off the rails now.. you guys have seriously lost it..

changing all these skills after so much time has me seriously contemplating moving to a new MMO, Like BDO that comes out next month, that MMO doesn't constantly change its abilities' or nerf them over and over again, as we players are certainly getting tired of it..

I was really enjoying Elsweyr and now the PTS drops with combat changes and so much stuff gets changed, including this..

I have been with this game since it had early access on PC, then I moved my characters to PS4 when I had the chance and you go and make such radical changes with these Patch Notes.. Who is in charge over there and what are they smoking ???

ok, lets see what you do, the ball is in your court, but if a lot of these changes go through I might not be dropping money like I do on this game any more and I am a whale, but I guess you guys don't care as what is one more loyal customer who loves your game right??

RANT over..

Dashmatt

Shrouded Daggers is one of my favorite skills in the game. I was worried about the patch notes but this is even worse than I feared.

Literally no one wants a clunky gap closer or a useless aoe interupt.

virtus753

“Utility” is predicated upon “usefulness” - and this skill no longer has any in my view considering its loss of damage and functionality together with increased cost. (See also: Werewolf, Pack Leader.)

The changes to the Shrouded Daggers morph in particular are incomprehensible. I’m baffled that this morph requires a melee attack to follow in order to proc Major Brutality. That seems the direct opposite of utility; in its current state I’ll forgo the gimmick and probably the entire morph. (I’ll miss the usefulness of the old morph in clearing overland trash and in PvP, but it likely isn’t worth using now for me.) If I’m using a ranged ability, there’s a reason for that - and it’s not because I’m in melee range. If it needs to be procced (which is still a big ask in the middle of combat, made much greater by the current trouble getting skills and attacks to go off in PvP in the first place!), then allow ranged attacks to fulfill this function too. It will still be extremely difficult to coordinate, and honestly the skill will probably still not be worth slotting for me, but it won’t be quite as counterintuitive for those who do.
Furthermore, making SD’s damage conform to an AoE standard is an equally strange decision when it can only affect 3 targets at most. When AoEs have been capped, the cap has been 6 targets as a rule. (I suppose technically the Necro res ult should qualify as AoE, but being able to res half your raid at once would have been more than a little OP, so I would consider that a reasonable “rule-breaker”.) Shrouded Daggers is a skill with a newly reduced range limit and newly reduced damage (both because it no longer increases with each hit and because Major Brutality does not proc on cast). It’s bizarre to me to “triple dip” on the damage nerf by making it conform to a standard that does not apply. It is in no way an AoE skill: it has neither radius nor square area listed, because it doesn’t cover enemies within a given area. It is a ranged multi-target skill rather than an AoE, and while that will probably require adjustments from a ranged single-target skill, making it conform to a standard that it does not fit by putting it in the AoE category is equally puzzling. If it is made to do AoE standard damage, then it should affect the AoE standard number of targets, i.e. double what it does now. Otherwise, if it will be kept at a maximum of 3 targets, find some of the increasingly vast middle ground between single-target and AoE abilities. This is especially important now that the Major Brutality buff has been made so impractical to activate. By reducing the range, damage, and opportunity to proc the buff, you’ve vastly reduced the utility of this skill even as you’ve increased the cost.

fred4

I'm just sad, because live Shrouded Daggers is my favorite skill for vMA. I cannot fathom what prompted them to make this many changes. Not every skill needs to be universal. If the skill was not widely used, it certainly had a strong niche use.

susmitds

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Can we have a new debuff, called Major Clunkiness? Increases cast time on all skills by 500 ms.

I believe they've added Major Clunkiness to ultimates.

Don't give them ideas.

Stibbons

Red_Feather wrote: »

Either use a 2 hander or a class skill or a pot.

I like this change to dual wield. DW needs to be given an identity other than better at everything than anything else.

Clunkiness as DW identity.

nsmurfer

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why not attach Major Brutality to one of the Blade Cloak morphs instead?

They won't add it to Dead Cloak(it deals big boi DPS now) and I'd rather they keep the Major Expedition on Quick Cloak.

BahometZ

I love shrouded daggers as it is on live just for the ease of use in non-sweaty content. Overland quests and delves, normal dungeons, etc. It's fun and powerful, and gets me to my goal quicker. It means I can access a basic buff on classes that don't gain access to it. I don't use it anything serious because there are better options, I don't use it in PvP because there are better options. This new utility version looks like ass.

Zos, don't overcomplicate things needlessly. Keep the Major Brutality on hit, and if you must fit it into your grand plan of utilities being less damaging, reduce the damage done, and have damage drop off from the ricochets.

SaucyMcSauceface

kojou wrote: »

Can we have a new debuff, called Major Clunkiness? Increases cast time on all skills by 500 ms.

Come play in Australia. We already have that debuff....

SaucyMcSauceface

The change to shrouded daggers was my biggest issue with this patch. I used it a my primary spammable, because it weaves beautifully, and because it gave me an option, as a melee player, to keep up dps when mechanics forced me out of melee range. The change to Silver shards though seems to function as a slightly better version of the same thing, although minus the major brutality. As a stam sorc though, I have access to that from pots and crit surge, so i can deal with the change. In some PvE fights, daggers will still be useful, because the ability to interrupt at range as a stam is useful in some trials.

Ei8htba11

Adding my vote that this is a horrible change.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

Sooo ZOS, I saw new PTS patch notes, when are you changing this back ???