Let's talk about bleeds

leepalmer95

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The reworked "bleeds" will be doing lower damage to high resist targets, and higher damage to low resist targets. They might as well remove the term "bleed" since they are now ordinary physical damage over time. A unique mechanic designed to counter resist stacking in PvP has been removed, so resist stacking will be rewarded more than ever (Onslaught aside, but this thread is about "bleeds" not Onslaught).

All hail the tank meta, may everyone zerg, and nobody die.

Thats been the game for like 1.5 yrs.

Papachico

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Papachico wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Papachico wrote: »

This change will hit light armour builds very hard next patch. From the "leaked" patch notes it said that on a 24k resis target bleeds will hit the normal value. On my magplar I run around 14k resis so basically bleeds will hit me +/- 40% harder next patch. Combine that with the new set that is introduced and thus more people running bleed setups will cause for disaster for light armour players in Cyrodill/BG's.

Why bother talking about rumors of the patch notes, when the real notes are currently available. Your math is off anyway. 24k resist is about 37% mitigation and Twin Slashes was buffed by 37% which is why that person used that example.. If you use a build with only 14k resist, first of all WHY? Secondly, 14k resists is 21% mitigation which is not +40% dmg increase. The real issue now lies with 2H ulti allowing all stam builds to ignore resists, but that's not inclusive of bleeds, that's all physical based damage.

Lets use your example with a simple number like 1000.

Live: Twin Slashes Bleed of 1000 dmg ignores resists

This encouraged stacking of WPD and Max Stam allowing for a build that doesn't need to build for penetration for stronger heals AND damage.

PTS: Twin Slashes Bleed of 1000 dmg * 1.37 = 1370.
Mitigation = 14,000/660 = 21%
1370 * 0.79% = 1082 dmg

Now, this is a little stronger vs YOUR build and if they build properly by investing in to penetration they can make short work of your little resistance, but now there is less investment in to overall Damage and Healing which is a proper trade off.

Oblivion damage is the new tool available to everyone for dealing with tanky targets and since it's not tied to abilities, it can be easily balanced and available to both MAG and STAM builds instead of just Stam which meant tank builds could utilize it against you. It allowed tanky builds to stack WPD and Max stam for HIGH heals and damage since they never had to worry about penetration.

So.. TLDR. Adapt. This change is good whether you see it or not.

Thing is squishy people will become squishier and tanky people will become tankier with this change. Let me state this again to stay on topic for this post: "Bleeds were introduced into the game to COUNTER high resistance targets". With these changes the opposite will happen.

Yes and now they're changing it just like they changed a lot of other things this patch, maybe it's time for you to change your build if you feel your too squishy. Just because you use a squishy build in pvp, doesn't mean the change is bad. 14k resists is low for most players.

Only twin slashes was buffed by 37%, Carve was nerfed by 9% (following aoe dot standards) and Twin Blade and Blunt was buffed by 24% (Nerfed by 12% in Wrathstone) So really it's only 12% stronger than it originally was. So your worries about bleeds hurting squishy builds more than before is an exaggeration to say the least.

The reality is, 14k resist in pvp is very low, so yes. Bleeds potentially hit a little harder on YOU than before, but they are like any other dot now which requires some level of penetration to become more effective where we didn't need to think about it before. Some level of sacrifice vs none before.

(You didn't touch on this so I'll repeat)Original bleeds gave tanks the ability to Stack DMG/Max Stam and use Bleeds with no investment in to penetration. Slot Fury or Seventh Legion and you have high resists, high damage and therefore high healing. Heavy high damage sets and bleeds were nerfed so that play style is not as effective as it once was.

Let me ask you, what makes you think Stam builds should be the only builds in the game capable of a damage type that ignores resistances and is easily available in their skill lines? Oblivion damage now fulfills that role and is much easier to balance since it is NOT attached to skills.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Stack up dots -> use Onslaught -> ezclap

This is the real issue, not the bleed change.

This is not a nerf bleed thread so stop trying to defend it with comments that are completely irrelevant to the discussion im bringing up. For example YOUR cheesy bleed build will even hit higher if bleeds would work inversely on resistances. Because yes indeed 14K resis is low in PvP but I learned to play with it and prefer damage over being a rock. Fact is and let me say this again "bleeds were introduced to counter high resistance builds" not the other way around. So it would make perfect sense if bleeds would inversely scale on resistance.

validifyedneb18_ESO

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The reworked "bleeds" will be doing lower damage to high resist targets, and higher damage to low resist targets. They might as well remove the term "bleed" since they are now ordinary physical damage over time. A unique mechanic designed to counter resist stacking in PvP has been removed, so resist stacking will be rewarded more than ever (Onslaught aside, but this thread is about "bleeds" not Onslaught).

All hail the tank meta, may everyone zerg, and nobody die.

For what its worth, I still like the fact that bleeds are considered separate (in the same way disease and poison are different from physical), if anything for the new bleed set, and blooddrinker.

MashmalloMan

Papachico wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Papachico wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Papachico wrote: »

This change will hit light armour builds very hard next patch. From the "leaked" patch notes it said that on a 24k resis target bleeds will hit the normal value. On my magplar I run around 14k resis so basically bleeds will hit me +/- 40% harder next patch. Combine that with the new set that is introduced and thus more people running bleed setups will cause for disaster for light armour players in Cyrodill/BG's.

Why bother talking about rumors of the patch notes, when the real notes are currently available. Your math is off anyway. 24k resist is about 37% mitigation and Twin Slashes was buffed by 37% which is why that person used that example.. If you use a build with only 14k resist, first of all WHY? Secondly, 14k resists is 21% mitigation which is not +40% dmg increase. The real issue now lies with 2H ulti allowing all stam builds to ignore resists, but that's not inclusive of bleeds, that's all physical based damage.

Lets use your example with a simple number like 1000.

Live: Twin Slashes Bleed of 1000 dmg ignores resists

This encouraged stacking of WPD and Max Stam allowing for a build that doesn't need to build for penetration for stronger heals AND damage.

PTS: Twin Slashes Bleed of 1000 dmg * 1.37 = 1370.
Mitigation = 14,000/660 = 21%
1370 * 0.79% = 1082 dmg

Now, this is a little stronger vs YOUR build and if they build properly by investing in to penetration they can make short work of your little resistance, but now there is less investment in to overall Damage and Healing which is a proper trade off.

Oblivion damage is the new tool available to everyone for dealing with tanky targets and since it's not tied to abilities, it can be easily balanced and available to both MAG and STAM builds instead of just Stam which meant tank builds could utilize it against you. It allowed tanky builds to stack WPD and Max stam for HIGH heals and damage since they never had to worry about penetration.

So.. TLDR. Adapt. This change is good whether you see it or not.

Thing is squishy people will become squishier and tanky people will become tankier with this change. Let me state this again to stay on topic for this post: "Bleeds were introduced into the game to COUNTER high resistance targets". With these changes the opposite will happen.

Yes and now they're changing it just like they changed a lot of other things this patch, maybe it's time for you to change your build if you feel your too squishy. Just because you use a squishy build in pvp, doesn't mean the change is bad. 14k resists is low for most players.

Only twin slashes was buffed by 37%, Carve was nerfed by 9% (following aoe dot standards) and Twin Blade and Blunt was buffed by 24% (Nerfed by 12% in Wrathstone) So really it's only 12% stronger than it originally was. So your worries about bleeds hurting squishy builds more than before is an exaggeration to say the least.

The reality is, 14k resist in pvp is very low, so yes. Bleeds potentially hit a little harder on YOU than before, but they are like any other dot now which requires some level of penetration to become more effective where we didn't need to think about it before. Some level of sacrifice vs none before.

(You didn't touch on this so I'll repeat)Original bleeds gave tanks the ability to Stack DMG/Max Stam and use Bleeds with no investment in to penetration. Slot Fury or Seventh Legion and you have high resists, high damage and therefore high healing. Heavy high damage sets and bleeds were nerfed so that play style is not as effective as it once was.

Let me ask you, what makes you think Stam builds should be the only builds in the game capable of a damage type that ignores resistances and is easily available in their skill lines? Oblivion damage now fulfills that role and is much easier to balance since it is NOT attached to skills.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Stack up dots -> use Onslaught -> ezclap

This is the real issue, not the bleed change.

This is not a nerf bleed thread so stop trying to defend it with comments that are completely irrelevant to the discussion im bringing up. For example YOUR cheesy bleed build will even hit higher if bleeds would work inversely on resistances. Because yes indeed 14K resis is low in PvP but I learned to play with it and prefer damage over being a rock. Fact is and let me say this again "bleeds were introduced to counter high resistance builds" not the other way around. So it would make perfect sense if bleeds would inversely scale on resistance.

I'm just defending their decisions because I disagree with you, how are my arguments completely irrelevant to the discussion or in anyway about nerfing or buffing? Also what do you mean MY build, I didn't even talk about what I use? Why should I get free damage against tanks because I happen to slot some dots I'd slot anyway.

The original design philosophy was flawed to begin with which is why balancing them for PVE and PVP was a nightmare, it's why they chose to abandon it in favour of oblivion damage fulfilling that same role.

So to be clear:

1)Bleeds are attached to regular skills available to all Stamina specs, meaning Tanks could utilize them with little to no need for penetration. Rewarding stacking weapon damage and stamina giving high healing and high damage with no need for pen.

2)Why should stamina have an exclusive damage type used for dealing with high resistance targets, instead, it's now available to all specs in a more balanced way via Oblivion damage. Since it's not attached to abilities, it makes it easier to balance and control as a proper "Tank" killing damage type. Doesn't crit, deals true damage, capped by max HP.

3)Your idea: If bleeds scaled with more damage based on the higher resistances, it would cause balance issues and concerns with PVE where resistances are treated slightly differently. Same numbers, different caps, different calculations, penetration cap is already met in trials. The change they made is in direct response to their design choice to standardize all damage and makes much more sense than trying to adjust bleeds to work in 2 different types of gameplay at the same time..

xaraan

I'm for the change. I don't like the concept of bleed/oblivion damage. If someone builds for high resistances and gives up offense, then a player that doesn't do that and just builds for offense shouldn't get to ignore those resistance. This means they are fighting an opponent that now has less offense and defense vs. them.

This only works by nerfing some of the heavy/S&B meta though so you can't also have big offense and defense together, which is what they are doing in the patch as well.