Let's talk about bleeds

Papachico

So when ZOS announced that bleeds were not going to ignore resistances with next patch but now scale off resistances the only question left was how bleeds would scale. Given the purpose why bleeds are in the game in the first place "to counter high resistance enemies" I would expect that on the PTS bleeds do more damage versus high resistance targets and less versus low resistance targets. Unfortunately this is not the case.

This change will hit light armour builds very hard next patch. From the "leaked" patch notes it said that on a 24k resis target bleeds will hit the normal value. On my magplar I run around 14k resis so basically bleeds will hit me +/- 40% harder next patch. Combine that with the new set that is introduced and thus more people running bleed setups will cause for disaster for light armour players in Cyrodill/BG's.

Gnozo

Every stam player will run bleeds now and heal for an crazy amount due to vigor buff.

Sword and Board playstyle literally got deleted from the game (where it was also the most enjoyable weapon type cause of its realistic flavour) so you will only see dual wield stam builds now bleeding everyone to death. And with the higher cleanse cost it will be so hard for magplar to get rid of all the bleeds.

Xogath

???

* All player sources of bleeds will now respect a target’s Physical Resistance. Many adjustments have been made to ensure bleeds deal similar damage to other standard Damage Over Time effects.

This simply means that Bleeds now respect Physical Resistances instead of ignoring them. Bleeds will all-around deal less damage now. So if you run 14k resists in Light Armor, Bleeds aren't going to be dealing damage as if you had zero.. which is what they do now.

This is a straight up nerf to Bleeds and nothing more; the way they scale hasn't been changed to my knowledge.. just that they now no longer totally ignore resistances as they do on live.

So no, you won't be seeing more Bleed builds now.. this change effectively killed them.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

Xogath wrote: »

???

* All player sources of bleeds will now respect a target’s Physical Resistance. Many adjustments have been made to ensure bleeds deal similar damage to other standard Damage Over Time effects.

This simply means that Bleeds now respect Physical Resistances instead of ignoring them. Bleeds will all-around deal less damage now. So if you run 14k resists in Light Armor, Bleeds aren't going to be dealing damage as if you had zero.. which is what they do now.

This is a straight up nerf to Bleeds and nothing more; the way they scale hasn't been changed to my knowledge.. just that they now no longer totally ignore resistances as they do on live.

So no, you won't be seeing more Bleed builds now.. this change effectively killed them.

They also increased the damage of bleeds to compensate for the fact that they’re resisted now.

Twin Slashes: Increased the Damage over Time from this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%.
Heavy Weapons: The axe bleed from this ability now ticks every second instead of every 2 seconds, and has had its total damage increased by approximately 24%

Et cetera

Xogath

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Xogath wrote: »

???

* All player sources of bleeds will now respect a target’s Physical Resistance. Many adjustments have been made to ensure bleeds deal similar damage to other standard Damage Over Time effects.

This simply means that Bleeds now respect Physical Resistances instead of ignoring them. Bleeds will all-around deal less damage now. So if you run 14k resists in Light Armor, Bleeds aren't going to be dealing damage as if you had zero.. which is what they do now.

This is a straight up nerf to Bleeds and nothing more; the way they scale hasn't been changed to my knowledge.. just that they now no longer totally ignore resistances as they do on live.

So no, you won't be seeing more Bleed builds now.. this change effectively killed them.

They also increased the damage of bleeds to compensate for the fact that they’re resisted now.

Twin Slashes: Increased the Damage over Time from this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%.
Heavy Weapons: The axe bleed from this ability now ticks every second instead of every 2 seconds, and has had its total damage increased by approximately 24%

Et cetera

Yet Carve was nerfed for whatever reason?

That aside, adhering to resistances now is still going to neuter Bleeds. If you're running Light Armor in PvP you're going to get deleted anyway, so I'm not sure what the OP's issue really is.

The main issue is that armor types need normalized in PvP so the whole "tank meta" can finally die off entirely.

Colecovision

Clanfear pet should ne a bleed

susmitds

Bleeds are normal DoTs now. What's your point. Poison Injection has the same tooltip as Bleeds

Papachico

Xogath wrote: »

???

* All player sources of bleeds will now respect a target’s Physical Resistance. Many adjustments have been made to ensure bleeds deal similar damage to other standard Damage Over Time effects.

This simply means that Bleeds now respect Physical Resistances instead of ignoring them. Bleeds will all-around deal less damage now. So if you run 14k resists in Light Armor, Bleeds aren't going to be dealing damage as if you had zero.. which is what they do now.

This is a straight up nerf to Bleeds and nothing more; the way they scale hasn't been changed to my knowledge.. just that they now no longer totally ignore resistances as they do on live.

So no, you won't be seeing more Bleed builds now.. this change effectively killed them.

Well that's not true. Like I stated in the OP at 24k resis bleeds will now do the same amount of damage.

Minno

#NoiseThread

susmitds

Papachico wrote: »

Xogath wrote: »

???

* All player sources of bleeds will now respect a target’s Physical Resistance. Many adjustments have been made to ensure bleeds deal similar damage to other standard Damage Over Time effects.

This simply means that Bleeds now respect Physical Resistances instead of ignoring them. Bleeds will all-around deal less damage now. So if you run 14k resists in Light Armor, Bleeds aren't going to be dealing damage as if you had zero.. which is what they do now.

This is a straight up nerf to Bleeds and nothing more; the way they scale hasn't been changed to my knowledge.. just that they now no longer totally ignore resistances as they do on live.

So no, you won't be seeing more Bleed builds now.. this change effectively killed them.

Well that's not true. Like I stated in the OP at 24k resis bleeds will now do the same amount of damage.

Do you realize that Poison Injection got a 75% buff and has 50% higher tooltip than bleeds?

Jayne_Doe

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Xogath wrote: »

???

* All player sources of bleeds will now respect a target’s Physical Resistance. Many adjustments have been made to ensure bleeds deal similar damage to other standard Damage Over Time effects.

This simply means that Bleeds now respect Physical Resistances instead of ignoring them. Bleeds will all-around deal less damage now. So if you run 14k resists in Light Armor, Bleeds aren't going to be dealing damage as if you had zero.. which is what they do now.

This is a straight up nerf to Bleeds and nothing more; the way they scale hasn't been changed to my knowledge.. just that they now no longer totally ignore resistances as they do on live.

So no, you won't be seeing more Bleed builds now.. this change effectively killed them.

They also increased the damage of bleeds to compensate for the fact that they’re resisted now.

Twin Slashes: Increased the Damage over Time from this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%.
Heavy Weapons: The axe bleed from this ability now ticks every second instead of every 2 seconds, and has had its total damage increased by approximately 24%

Et cetera

But they decreased bleed damage in the previous patch. So I'm guessing the increase is potentially in-line with the bleed values prior to Update 22?

katorga

Xogath wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Xogath wrote: »

???

* All player sources of bleeds will now respect a target’s Physical Resistance. Many adjustments have been made to ensure bleeds deal similar damage to other standard Damage Over Time effects.

This simply means that Bleeds now respect Physical Resistances instead of ignoring them. Bleeds will all-around deal less damage now. So if you run 14k resists in Light Armor, Bleeds aren't going to be dealing damage as if you had zero.. which is what they do now.

This is a straight up nerf to Bleeds and nothing more; the way they scale hasn't been changed to my knowledge.. just that they now no longer totally ignore resistances as they do on live.

So no, you won't be seeing more Bleed builds now.. this change effectively killed them.

They also increased the damage of bleeds to compensate for the fact that they’re resisted now.

Twin Slashes: Increased the Damage over Time from this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%.
Heavy Weapons: The axe bleed from this ability now ticks every second instead of every 2 seconds, and has had its total damage increased by approximately 24%

Et cetera

Yet Carve was nerfed for whatever reason?

That aside, adhering to resistances now is still going to neuter Bleeds. If you're running Light Armor in PvP you're going to get deleted anyway, so I'm not sure what the OP's issue really is.

The main issue is that armor types need normalized in PvP so the whole "tank meta" can finally die off entirely.

Carve got the aoe treatment didn't it?

Anyway bleeds are just another physical damage dot at this point and the term is just flavor in the skill description. The only gravy is that a chance at two passive bleeds when using axes. Player gets to do the math between the options.

Personally, I think this patch will be the tankiest ever.

John_Falstaff

What I'm curious about is... if bleeds respect resistances now - what makes them bleeds? As in... purely from semantic viewpoint, I'm not sure anymore what makes bleeds bleeds and not physical damage, for example. ^^ You know, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Papachico

John_Falstaff wrote: »

What I'm curious about is... if bleeds respect resistances now - what makes them bleeds? As in... purely from semantic viewpoint, I'm not sure anymore what makes bleeds bleeds and not physical damage, for example. ^^ You know, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Exactly this. That's why I expected them to work the opposite way versus resistance. Thus the higher resistance the higher bleed damage you will receive, which makes sense why bleeds were introduced in the first place.

Neoauspex

Said this many times, bleeds should scale inversely with armor so it does very little to a light armor build and smokes a heavy armor build. The counter we want, the counter we need.

Mayrael

Neoauspex wrote: »

Said this many times, bleeds should scale inversely with armor so it does very little to a light armor build and smokes a heavy armor build. The counter we want, the counter we need.

Totaly agree, I was also supporting this way of bleeds implementation. bleed vs 20k resists deal more or less the same damage as usual dot, vs 10k- resistances it deals 50% less damage, vs 30k+ resistances deals 50% more damage. Now just scale it and you have bleeds doing their job.

Papachico

Mayrael wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Said this many times, bleeds should scale inversely with armor so it does very little to a light armor build and smokes a heavy armor build. The counter we want, the counter we need.

Totaly agree, I was also supporting this way of bleeds implementation. bleed vs 20k resists deal more or less the same damage as usual dot, vs 10k- resistances it deals 50% less damage, vs 30k+ resistances deals 50% more damage. Now just scale it and you have bleeds doing their job.

This would also give players in PvP an incentive to play higher damage builds where risk and reward will pay off.

xylena_lazarow

Papachico wrote: »

Well that's not true. Like I stated in the OP at 24k resis bleeds will now do the same amount of damage.

24k is on the low end of PvP resist stats these days. 30k+ resist Heavy builds will now take significantly less damage from "bleeds" on top of their easy access to Major Evasion on an ability they were already using (2h Momentum).

All hail the tank meta, may everyone zerg and nobody die.

jaysins

Only thing stopping the tank meta is the new Onslaught lol. Agree with the sentiment that bleeds reverse scaling with mitigation would make for a more balanced pvp experience.

Gnozo

Dont really know why they did this. Bleeds are here to target high resist targets but now end up being much stronger against light armor targets.

Like sloads..... ZOS never learns from their mistakes.....

Finedaible

I don't think Bleeds are working as OP believes. Bleeds Do not ignore targets' resistances now, so they are like any other physical dot except for the bleed tag/description. It's definitely a big nerf to bleeds across all armor types, even if heavy armor takes comparatively less now (like anything else). Oblivion damage on the other hand, is the one which continues to ignore resistances and also scales with the targets' health now (with some sort of cap).

Papachico

Finedaible wrote: »

I don't think Bleeds are working as OP believes. Bleeds Do not ignore targets' resistances now, so they are like any other physical dot except for the bleed tag/description. It's definitely a big nerf to bleeds across all armor types, even if heavy armor takes comparatively less now (like anything else). Oblivion damage on the other hand, is the one which continues to ignore resistances and also scales with the targets' health now (with some sort of cap).

Yes and this is exactly the problem with the change taking into account that bleeds were introduced in the game to counter targets with high resistances.

Wuuffyy

Papachico wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

I don't think Bleeds are working as OP believes. Bleeds Do not ignore targets' resistances now, so they are like any other physical dot except for the bleed tag/description. It's definitely a big nerf to bleeds across all armor types, even if heavy armor takes comparatively less now (like anything else). Oblivion damage on the other hand, is the one which continues to ignore resistances and also scales with the targets' health now (with some sort of cap).

Yes and this is exactly the problem with the change taking into account that bleeds were introduced in the game to counter targets with high resistances.

I hope I can say this but I strongly dislike this development team and their structure even more than the-one-who-shall-not-be-named and the team goals then. At least I didn't have to worry about every one of my playstyles being radically changed every 3 months to the point I'm basically remaking my char to the dev's liking.

MashmalloMan

Papachico wrote: »

This change will hit light armour builds very hard next patch. From the "leaked" patch notes it said that on a 24k resis target bleeds will hit the normal value. On my magplar I run around 14k resis so basically bleeds will hit me +/- 40% harder next patch. Combine that with the new set that is introduced and thus more people running bleed setups will cause for disaster for light armour players in Cyrodill/BG's.

Why bother talking about rumors of the patch notes, when the real notes are currently available. Your math is off anyway. 24k resist is about 37% mitigation and Twin Slashes was buffed by 37% which is why that person used that example.. If you use a build with only 14k resist, first of all WHY? Secondly, 14k resists is 21% mitigation which is not +40% dmg increase. The real issue now lies with 2H ulti allowing all stam builds to ignore resists, but that's not inclusive of bleeds, that's all physical based damage.

Lets use your example with a simple number like 1000.

Live: Twin Slashes Bleed of 1000 dmg ignores resists

This encouraged stacking of WPD and Max Stam allowing for a build that doesn't need to build for penetration for stronger heals AND damage.

PTS: Twin Slashes Bleed of 1000 dmg * 1.37 = 1370.
Mitigation = 14,000/660 = 21%
1370 * 0.79% = 1082 dmg

Now, this is a little stronger vs YOUR build and if they build properly by investing in to penetration they can make short work of your little resistance, but now there is less investment in to overall Damage and Healing which is a proper trade off.

Oblivion damage is the new tool available to everyone for dealing with tanky targets and since it's not tied to abilities, it can be easily balanced and available to both MAG and STAM builds instead of just Stam which meant tank builds could utilize it against you. It allowed tanky builds to stack WPD and Max stam for HIGH heals and damage since they never had to worry about penetration.

So.. TLDR. Adapt. This change is good whether you see it or not.

juhislihis19

Gnozo wrote: »

Dont really know why they did this. Bleeds are here to target high resist targets but now end up being much stronger against light armor targets.

Like sloads..... ZOS never learns from their mistakes.....

At least the made the adjustments to Sloads in this patch lol.

How will the bleeds scale damage shields?

Papachico

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Papachico wrote: »

This change will hit light armour builds very hard next patch. From the "leaked" patch notes it said that on a 24k resis target bleeds will hit the normal value. On my magplar I run around 14k resis so basically bleeds will hit me +/- 40% harder next patch. Combine that with the new set that is introduced and thus more people running bleed setups will cause for disaster for light armour players in Cyrodill/BG's.

Why bother talking about rumors of the patch notes, when the real notes are currently available. Your math is off anyway. 24k resist is about 37% mitigation and Twin Slashes was buffed by 37% which is why that person used that example.. If you use a build with only 14k resist, first of all WHY? Secondly, 14k resists is 21% mitigation which is not +40% dmg increase. The real issue now lies with 2H ulti allowing all stam builds to ignore resists, but that's not inclusive of bleeds, that's all physical based damage.

Lets use your example with a simple number like 1000.

Live: Twin Slashes Bleed of 1000 dmg ignores resists

This encouraged stacking of WPD and Max Stam allowing for a build that doesn't need to build for penetration for stronger heals AND damage.

PTS: Twin Slashes Bleed of 1000 dmg * 1.37 = 1370.
Mitigation = 14,000/660 = 21%
1370 * 0.79% = 1082 dmg

Now, this is a little stronger vs YOUR build and if they build properly by investing in to penetration they can make short work of your little resistance, but now there is less investment in to overall Damage and Healing which is a proper trade off.

Oblivion damage is the new tool available to everyone for dealing with tanky targets and since it's not tied to abilities, it can be easily balanced and available to both MAG and STAM builds instead of just Stam which meant tank builds could utilize it against you. It allowed tanky builds to stack WPD and Max stam for HIGH heals and damage since they never had to worry about penetration.

So.. TLDR. Adapt. This change is good whether you see it or not.

My math is not off at all. I'm talking about base value damage. Your calculation is about mitigated damage. But oke let's run in through the mitigation.

Like you calculated on 14k resis = 1082 dmg

24k resis will be 24000/660 = 36% mitigation
1370*0,64(not 0,64% that calculation would be off)= 877 dmg


So now lets calculate the damage difference between these resistance values 1082-877= 205. Now we can calculate the true % difference taking into account resistances based on the base value 205/1370 = 15%.

Thing is squishy people will become squishier and tanky people will become tankier with this change. Let me state this again to stay on topic for this post: "Bleeds were introduced into the game to COUNTER high resistance targets". With these changes the opposite will happen.

Ragnaroek93

Stack up dots -> use Onslaught -> ezclap

MashmalloMan

Papachico wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Papachico wrote: »

This change will hit light armour builds very hard next patch. From the "leaked" patch notes it said that on a 24k resis target bleeds will hit the normal value. On my magplar I run around 14k resis so basically bleeds will hit me +/- 40% harder next patch. Combine that with the new set that is introduced and thus more people running bleed setups will cause for disaster for light armour players in Cyrodill/BG's.

Why bother talking about rumors of the patch notes, when the real notes are currently available. Your math is off anyway. 24k resist is about 37% mitigation and Twin Slashes was buffed by 37% which is why that person used that example.. If you use a build with only 14k resist, first of all WHY? Secondly, 14k resists is 21% mitigation which is not +40% dmg increase. The real issue now lies with 2H ulti allowing all stam builds to ignore resists, but that's not inclusive of bleeds, that's all physical based damage.

Lets use your example with a simple number like 1000.

Live: Twin Slashes Bleed of 1000 dmg ignores resists

This encouraged stacking of WPD and Max Stam allowing for a build that doesn't need to build for penetration for stronger heals AND damage.

PTS: Twin Slashes Bleed of 1000 dmg * 1.37 = 1370.
Mitigation = 14,000/660 = 21%
1370 * 0.79% = 1082 dmg

Now, this is a little stronger vs YOUR build and if they build properly by investing in to penetration they can make short work of your little resistance, but now there is less investment in to overall Damage and Healing which is a proper trade off.

Oblivion damage is the new tool available to everyone for dealing with tanky targets and since it's not tied to abilities, it can be easily balanced and available to both MAG and STAM builds instead of just Stam which meant tank builds could utilize it against you. It allowed tanky builds to stack WPD and Max stam for HIGH heals and damage since they never had to worry about penetration.

So.. TLDR. Adapt. This change is good whether you see it or not.

Thing is squishy people will become squishier and tanky people will become tankier with this change. Let me state this again to stay on topic for this post: "Bleeds were introduced into the game to COUNTER high resistance targets". With these changes the opposite will happen.

Yes and now they're changing it just like they changed a lot of other things this patch, maybe it's time for you to change your build if you feel your too squishy. Just because you use a squishy build in pvp, doesn't mean the change is bad. 14k resists is low for most players.

Only twin slashes was buffed by 37%, Carve was nerfed by 9% (following aoe dot standards) and Twin Blade and Blunt was buffed by 24% (Nerfed by 12% in Wrathstone) So really it's only 12% stronger than it originally was. So your worries about bleeds hurting squishy builds more than before is an exaggeration to say the least.

The reality is, 14k resist in pvp is very low, so yes. Bleeds potentially hit a little harder on YOU than before, but they are like any other dot now which requires some level of penetration to become more effective where we didn't need to think about it before. Some level of sacrifice vs none before.

(You didn't touch on this so I'll repeat)Original bleeds gave tanks the ability to Stack DMG/Max Stam and use Bleeds with no investment in to penetration. Slot Fury or Seventh Legion and you have high resists, high damage and therefore high healing. Heavy high damage sets and bleeds were nerfed so that play style is not as effective as it once was.

Let me ask you, what makes you think Stam builds should be the only builds in the game capable of a damage type that ignores resistances and is easily available in their skill lines? Oblivion damage now fulfills that role and is much easier to balance since it is NOT attached to skills.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Stack up dots -> use Onslaught -> ezclap

This is the real issue, not the bleed change.

katorga

The bleed changes really don't matter. If you couldn't handle them before, you can't handle them now, and you won't be able to handle having soul trap/entropy/class dot stacked on you.

Pressure is applying as many sources of damage and status effects as possible in the fewest possible GCD.

xylena_lazarow

The reworked "bleeds" will be doing lower damage to high resist targets, and higher damage to low resist targets. They might as well remove the term "bleed" since they are now ordinary physical damage over time. A unique mechanic designed to counter resist stacking in PvP has been removed, so resist stacking will be rewarded more than ever (Onslaught aside, but this thread is about "bleeds" not Onslaught).

All hail the tank meta, may everyone zerg, and nobody die.

leepalmer95

Papachico wrote: »

So when ZOS announced that bleeds were not going to ignore resistances with next patch but now scale off resistances the only question left was how bleeds would scale. Given the purpose why bleeds are in the game in the first place "to counter high resistance enemies" I would expect that on the PTS bleeds do more damage versus high resistance targets and less versus low resistance targets. Unfortunately this is not the case.

This change will hit light armour builds very hard next patch. From the "leaked" patch notes it said that on a 24k resis target bleeds will hit the normal value. On my magplar I run around 14k resis so basically bleeds will hit me +/- 40% harder next patch. Combine that with the new set that is introduced and thus more people running bleed setups will cause for disaster for light armour players in Cyrodill/BG's.

They basically turned bleeds into a generic dot, following their standards of direct single target dots.

They don't seem anything different from soul trap or the mage skill one.