Cast times on ultimates should not go live

miteba

I will honestly admit i don't now if i will like this change or not, in the future… theoretically i prefer fluid gameplay but… lag is real and these 1sec kills happen with some frequency and are hatefull!

I dont care if they are from macro players, or if it is the freakin lag, or whatever excuses people always try to devalue the situation! Truth is that it happens… like it is shown in these screenshots, the same way we lag a lot near big scale fights and disconnect and freeze and blah blah

And if Devs, people who are paid to work through these changes day and night, try to find some solutions to known server problems, go through with these changes … MAYBE... we should give them a chance.

We are in the PTS window and they have to be tested now so… chill out... because if results will not be satisfatory they will revert it.
If these changes go through live it means their data proved to help prevent some lag in the servers, and everyone will gain from it…

I will be somewhat "son of a..." with what i am going to say now, but i will only copy what some pseudo-elite players always sing:
- If this goes live, learn to adapt!

Everyone has the right to express themselves, even if they are a minority, so im with @Gilvoth in this one although my fight is not against anyone but server lag and their minions

Fur_like_snow

If he is a snipe spammer that would explain why he won’t agree to a duel. Smh

labambao

Do you like the cast times?
- Yes, but only on damage shields.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484787/do-you-like-cast-times/p1

JusticeSouldier

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

If he is a snipe spammer that would explain why he won’t agree to a duel. Smh

u know, duel can't be good proof in such things.
here are too many variables why:
1. different classes in a current balance state. someone of them shine only in group or open world and crap in duels not matter how good your are
2. difference in human reaction, which is constant actually but everyone has own one and hard to change it (sometimes i meet people with so high reaction that can outplay them only because of another variables, or better tactics or strategy, or can't)
4. difference in internet connection/pc stats (for example keyboard with mechanicsl key is a huge profit)
5. different lvl of player experience at current class (trained combos-rotations, work with line of sight)
and more. u can be brilliant sorc ans average dk for example..

duel can't show each aspect, it shows it's summary

JusticeSouldier

miteba wrote: »

I will honestly admit i don't now if i will like this change or not, in the future… theoretically i prefer fluid gameplay but… lag is real and these 1sec kills happen with some frequency and are hatefull!

such kills happends not matter with or without lag. u can be lagged at a moment of he's delay so u will get same instand damage. u will feel it like.
but when u will get this lag while trying to kill someone u will get not only very long cast but it can to not happend at all, or to end 2-3 seconds after, that is very very frustrating.
My opinion, this solutin is not good for gameplay in any case. Fluidness here is very important. And actions from zenimax should be to reduce lags during combat and to make actions in game more feelable than now.
Not to ruin above described

Cathexis

Honestly as counter intuitive as it is to fluid gameplay design, it will be good to see groups not be able to just tank up and ult down with ulti's so sync'd they need a box of tampons for their sorority house.

That said it is entirely counter-intuitive to fluid gameplay design and I don't see how any player is going to take enough damage in a head to head 1v1 encounter, which is already a problem (not a feature, no matter how many times people scream it is).

Joy_Division

Gilvoth wrote: »

oh i Absolutely stand by my comments and those screenshots.
a Cast time on ultimates is a Great idea.
infact, a cast time on ultimates or maybe "some" skills would be Great and it will Help pvp.
but not on shields, not on healing and invisibility, not on blocking.
when a skill needs to have immediate reaction, then let us have it.
it would destroy survival and defenses to put cast times on those, but damage skills ... some of them should not have cast times. it could break your ability to finish the fight and kill your enemy. having Some skills with cast times would help improve PvP.

Your invisibility does not somehow need an "immediate reaction" anymore than my offensive skills.

There is a reason just about every successful Fantasy, RPG, and MMO game has made defensive skills more expensive and generally more taxing than offensive. And the devs had said ESO is one. This was why heals were capped at 6 whereas damage was not capped at all.

Games do this because if defensive if easy and cheap, then fights would be long drawn out boring stalemates. As it is, ESO has been way too far in this direction for too long

Insco851

Revert this ridiculousness. 400ms means break free+dodge roll is faster than ANY ultimate after a stun. Ffs devs, did you learn nothing from merciless minimum travel cast time? It was useless, remember?....

Insco851

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

agree, it's step in a bad direction.
If there is too much damage - reduce general burst.
Not this crap change to get feeling each time like u've got high ping on skill cast.

If there was “too much damage” why did they just nerf protective, group heals, pirate skelly, s&b, shields...

A viable build in cp pvp basically meant you’d run into other viable builds and not be able to kill people 1v1 and eventually walk away from each other.

Anyone not in that survive to win meta got smashed by it however and thought “ohmuhgawd so much damage why I so squish?!?!”

sweatapodimas

Insco851 wrote: »

Revert this ridiculousness. 400ms means break free+dodge roll is faster than ANY ultimate after a stun. Ffs devs, did you learn nothing from merciless minimum travel cast time? It was useless, remember?....

Exactly I agree with this 110%. They reverted that travel time to a shorter 200 ms correct?

jcm2606

miteba wrote: »

I will honestly admit i don't now if i will like this change or not, in the future… theoretically i prefer fluid gameplay but… lag is real and these 1sec kills happen with some frequency and are hatefull!

I dont care if they are from macro players, or if it is the freakin lag, or whatever excuses people always try to devalue the situation! Truth is that it happens… like it is shown in these screenshots, the same way we lag a lot near big scale fights and disconnect and freeze and blah blah

And if Devs, people who are paid to work through these changes day and night, try to find some solutions to known server problems, go through with these changes … MAYBE... we should give them a chance.

We are in the PTS window and they have to be tested now so… chill out... because if results will not be satisfatory they will revert it.
If these changes go through live it means their data proved to help prevent some lag in the servers, and everyone will gain from it…

I will be somewhat "son of a..." with what i am going to say now, but i will only copy what some pseudo-elite players always sing:
- If this goes live, learn to adapt!

Everyone has the right to express themselves, even if they are a minority, so im with @Gilvoth in this one although my fight is not against anyone but server lag and their minions

To say it *** again, those screenshots are not caused by animation cancelling, or even lag. 5/6 of those are caused by delayed burst, that allows the players to easily time their burst so everything hits at relatively the same time. You'd end up with the exact *** same death recaps if animation cancelling were to be removed, or if lag were eliminated entirely and ping was literally perfect, because it's from the skill design, not animation cancelling or lag.

All of those screenshots are death recaps taken out of context, twisted based on a flawed understanding of the game. It is not a *** opinion, this is a matter of you guys being plain and simply, wrong.

Anti_Virus

Insco851 wrote: »

Xogath wrote: »

..wow. I saw the cast time for Dawnbreaker, but now ALL of those abilities have a small cast time?

The hell is happening with combat in this game?

Sorry, but it's looking like prime time to jump ship before this sinks to the bottom of the MMOcean.

First of all that’s not “small”

Transairion wrote: »

Its because in 2019 there are some forum warriors still calling animation cancelling cheating and are for some reason incapable or simply too lazy to learn it.

Not quite as clear cut as that, but I've always found it really bizarre you can animation cancel at all... what's the point of the (formerly?) forced animations if you can skip them entirely to do add something "impossible" into what should be filled timeframe? Wouldn't then an animation-less ESO combat be even better/faster?

The main problem is PvP and latency/ms differences, since 300ms at all times in Australia VS 30ms in US makes stuff being animation cancelled all clump together.

• Death Stroke & morphs: Added a 400ms cast time to these abilities to sync up with their animations.
• Dawnbreaker & morphs: Added a 400ms cast time to these abilities.
• Berserker Strike & morphs: Added a 400ms cast time to these abilities.
• Soul Shred & morphs: Added a 500ms cast time to these abilities.
• Lacerate & morphs: Added a 500ms cast time to these abilities, rather than the 500ms delay they had before.

Maybe the idea of Ult Cast times is to give PvP counterplay to all the non-US players who don't have 30ms? These all look like PvP-centric Ults to me.

“Break free > Dodge roll” is quicker than these ultis even if you stun before hand. Ask any magblade that played with merciless in the recent patches. This is godawful. More stalled out 1v1’s cuz burst gonna plummet.

Stop being predictable with your burst?

Anti_Virus

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Death Stroke & morphs: Added a 400ms cast time to these abilities to sync up with their animations.
Dawnbreaker & morphs: Added a 400ms cast time to these abilities.
Berserker Strike & morphs: Added a 400ms cast time to these abilities.
Soul Shred & morphs: Added a 500ms cast time to these abilities.
Lacerate & morphs: Added a 500ms cast time to these abilities, rather than the 500ms delay they had before.

These changes should not be allowed to go live. ESO combat is fast paced, and creating burst combos in 2019 takes more precision timing and player skill than it EVER has. Adding a cast time to some of the only instant-damage ults, after YEARS of players adapting their playstyles and honing their animation cancelling skills to better use these ults, is a terrible idea.

On live currently, the unmorphed version of dawn breaker has a short cast time. It feels terrible. The animation feels clunky and delayed, the cone targeting does not feel accurate at all as the damage itself doesn't register in line with the ability use, and it is all around a worthless skill. This change is on par with the ward cast-time change we ALMOST had several patches ago. Dawnbreaker is already an ability that seems to suffer from severe targeting issues with an instant usage on console, and I foresee this cast time making it near impossible to consistently land in actual PVP encounters. Additionally, with soul harvest/incap and berserker strike being SINGLE TARGET+DODGEABLE, having a cast time on them is going to make avoiding them a joke. Soul tether is another ability with a strange hitbox, that will likely suffer severely from this change. Nobody uses lacerate, but now nobody will either.

There isn't even a developer note explaining why this change was made or what the justification was, other than "This change is to help high impact abilities sync up better with their animations". The animation is the LAST THING that pvp players care about, hence the only practice that separates lower skilled players from higher skilled ones. ANIMATION CANCELLING. The counterplay to instant damage burst ultimates is to AVOID letting yourself get into burst range, which has already been made as easy as it ever has been with the ridiculous amount of CP, mitigation, and health available in this game. This is a silly, hand-holding, noob-catering change that has no place at all in the fast paced environment that is ESO pvp.

Its because in 2019 there are some forum warriors still calling animation cancelling cheating and are for some reason incapable or simply too lazy to learn it.

If a boxer/ MMA fighter was able to throw a kick/punch but block before committing to the strike and still have the target get hit by it would that be right?

Tlania

Gilvoth wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

https://scufgaming.com/playstation-vantage-controller.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078J2HQ9D/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=uncannyx-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B078J2HQ9D&linkId=76bd5a8735eb0d38a5b158a944399d2b
Yeah get you something like these and Animation canceling that is being allowed in ESO just makes macroing SOOO easy.
When someone in pvp kills you in less then a second and you look at the battle log of how you died and what was cast on you and by WHO.
5 abilities in half a second from the same person LOL.
It wasnt skill. It was one of these devices combined with the fact that animation canceling is in this game.
Put a cast time or make it so if you animation cancel then it stops the whole spell or ability from going off because well hell, YOU canceled it lol.
Cast times or removing anima canceling and POOF , their cheating macro making devices cease to help them haha.
I dont care what anyone says, because everyone has at one point or another been victim to an insta death from one of these cheaters . That is if youve even played any pvp in eso at all.

The animation canceling just enables them to be able to utilize these devices.
Even the XIM4 allows using your macro mouse or macro keyboard on your ps4 or xbox to mimic and appear as a legit console controller and macro as much as you want .

Animation cancelling helps these devices because it takes away any kind of delay between skill and abilities and strings them together without global cooldowns of any kind.

[Edit to remove baiting]

Gilvoth wrote: »

we showed proof that, that is not true.

This was an issue several years ago when it could be done at will with proper timing and cancelling, but it is no longer possible

yes it is, heres a few examples that were captured recently by a fellow player.

LegacyDM wrote: »

Here we have HA-->Sub Assault --->DoS all in the same second



Here we have a Cutting Dive ---->Heavy Attack ----> Sub Assault all in the same second followed by a DoS one second later. Poor game play design and BS.



Here we have a lethal arrow ----> Draining Shot all in the same second.



Here's an interesting one. An Ambush ----> Lethal Arrow. In the same second. Now how did he get an ambush off with a skill that actually requires a 1s channel cast time all in the same second. Not sure.



Here we have Dizzying Swing ---->Reverse Slice --->Sub Assault all in the same second.



And my personal favorite. Two focused aims in the same second.

Mate as people have pointed out you don't know base mechanics, a lot of people have trouble with this even when playing for a long time, here is a example might help you to understand the photos, " 1st I press sub assault,2 then wind up a heavy attack 3 then press my dawnbreaker" this has taken 3 secs to cast these 3 attacks, global cooldown stops it going faster btw, but they all hit within a second of each other, the snipe one for u is like this " 1 cast snipe 2 bar swop 3 cast ambush 4 LA 5 incap" because snipe at certain range takes time to hit, the ambush will hit before it try it your self and see these arnt cheating you just don't understand how the mechanics of some abilities can be chained together to land at once, the recap doesn't show you how they did it just u got a hit by skills that shouldn't make sense in the order they come up as on the recap. hope this helps you to understand that this will not go away with cast times on ultimate's, there are so many ways to combo skills together to give a lot of burst damage. adding a cast time on ultimates will just end up with you dead more often than not, because the player who can chain these skills without AC will still out burst you pressing 1 skill at a time

Malada

Agreed, this is one of the worst changes in this patch.

JusticeSouldier

without any feedback from Zos it feels we are Don Quijotes here

Gilvoth

drummindrummer wrote: »

lol bro, i do like "near" top dps on multiple classes. im just stating my opinions, along with some facts lol

oh i agree with you 100%, but i have learned that is the main theme here, and the part of your comment that i bolded i want to also focus on specifically.
is that, no matter how good you are or how intelligent you are or what College you Graduated from or anything, the main point is that if someone from their group disagrees with you opinions here then their group does everything they can to make you look foolish and make you out to be the minority and make you out to be as if you have no knowledge of the game and everything else they can do to make their opinions look right and your opinions look bad and wrong.
it's an agenda that i hope the Developers and the moderators and the entire community see.
the point of that Agenda is to make any one that apposes thier beliefs and all of that persons opinions not matter and look as if not worth listening to and not be a part of the consideration. especially here on the PTS.

and that's just foolishness, Because ALL of our opinions matter and are worth being heard.

the cast time on ultimates is good for pvp, it needs to stay.
zenimax,
please do not revert the changes to cast times on ultimates they are good for pvp.[/quote]

Malada

PvP is intended to be fast paced. In order for these ultra to stay useful ... they need to be fast. Whereas DB would normally be handy against a Zerg, now along with the lag that Zerg has time to kill u or cc u down so u cannot harm them. NB ultra is also useless now, in martial arts speed is key, we don’t stop and wait before throwing a round house kick.

Bad theory.

TheBonesXXX

Reduce it, but a stagger to Crutchbreaker is fine.

Anti_Virus

Malada wrote: »

PvP is intended to be fast paced. In order for these ultra to stay useful ... they need to be fast. Whereas DB would normally be handy against a Zerg, now along with the lag that Zerg has time to kill u or cc u down so u cannot harm them. NB ultra is also useless now, in martial arts speed is key, we don’t stop and wait before throwing a round house kick.

Bad theory.

You also can’t animation cancel a kick irl.

Lucky28

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Malada wrote: »

PvP is intended to be fast paced. In order for these ultra to stay useful ... they need to be fast. Whereas DB would normally be handy against a Zerg, now along with the lag that Zerg has time to kill u or cc u down so u cannot harm them. NB ultra is also useless now, in martial arts speed is key, we don’t stop and wait before throwing a round house kick.

Bad theory.

You also can’t animation cancel a kick irl.

An experienced fighter cuts out the useless or exaggerated movements which you could argue would be a similar process to animation canceling ie cutting out the useless/exaggerated movements.

John_Falstaff

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Malada wrote: »

PvP is intended to be fast paced. In order for these ultra to stay useful ... they need to be fast. Whereas DB would normally be handy against a Zerg, now along with the lag that Zerg has time to kill u or cc u down so u cannot harm them. NB ultra is also useless now, in martial arts speed is key, we don’t stop and wait before throwing a round house kick.

Bad theory.

You also can’t animation cancel a kick irl.

You can cast fireballs or protect yourself with shields IRL? Or, like, resurrect using crystals? Maybe you can carry two weapons and swap them in milliseconds? Point in case, appealing to RL realism is misguided here, it's a game and has certain amount of abstraction that serves nothing but to enable enjoyable gameplay. It's normal.

Anti_Virus

Lucky28 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Malada wrote: »

PvP is intended to be fast paced. In order for these ultra to stay useful ... they need to be fast. Whereas DB would normally be handy against a Zerg, now along with the lag that Zerg has time to kill u or cc u down so u cannot harm them. NB ultra is also useless now, in martial arts speed is key, we don’t stop and wait before throwing a round house kick.

Bad theory.

You also can’t animation cancel a kick irl.

An experienced fighter cuts out the useless or exaggerated movements which you could argue would be a similar process to animation canceling ie cutting out the useless/exaggerated movements.

If you don’t fully commit to the kick then your opponent shouldn’t get hit by an invisible kick.

Gnozo

Players claiming that Animation canceling is cheating in 2019. Wow....

AC allows you to maximize your dps and is for high end players. AC is not needed for 95% of ESO content. AC can be learned in one day. My little brother started with ESO and was light attack weaving from the first day on. So everyone can do it.

[Edit to remove bait]

sweatapodimas

Gnozo wrote: »

Players claiming that Animation canceling is cheating in 2019. Wow....

AC allows you to maximize your dps and is for high end players. AC is not needed for 95% of ESO content. AC can be learned in one day. My little brother started with ESO and was light attack weaving from the first day on. So everyone can do it.

Some players writing in this thread here should delete their Account cause they have clearly no idea of ESO combat System.

Exactly, as I said before also, all it takes is a few hours on a combat dummy. It boggles the mind that these people want to dumb this down to WoW combat, which is atrocious. That game needs to be euthanized.

Malada

That is the whole point though, if anim cancel is a thing and they have said it’s ok then no need for cast times.

That’s it.

Malada

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Malada wrote: »

PvP is intended to be fast paced. In order for these ultra to stay useful ... they need to be fast. Whereas DB would normally be handy against a Zerg, now along with the lag that Zerg has time to kill u or cc u down so u cannot harm them. NB ultra is also useless now, in martial arts speed is key, we don’t stop and wait before throwing a round house kick.

Bad theory.

You also can’t animation cancel a kick irl.

Hah Are you sure? . Some of those guys move so fast it wouldn’t surprise me.

However really, to be fair here PvP wise the lag is going to make this a nightmare. It’s just like Streak, many times in PvP I just sit there trying to bolt away and the anim never finishes and I die.

A lot of these attacks now will never finish because the anim will get hung up, like it already does with other skills. We can argue all day about the theory behind doing this whichever way however the current existing systemic problems not being addressed for so long are going to make their progress fruitless until something is done to address the real issues.

It kinda seems like one part of the dept wants to develop, shake things up and another part is not interested. Clearly they are not on the same page or ppl in Dev are not collaborating well between projects. Dev group vs Server and Architecture.

sharquez

Considering the lag issues in this game cast times will do nothing but make EVERYONE miserable as their skill never fire on time anyway.

Lucky28

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Malada wrote: »

PvP is intended to be fast paced. In order for these ultra to stay useful ... they need to be fast. Whereas DB would normally be handy against a Zerg, now along with the lag that Zerg has time to kill u or cc u down so u cannot harm them. NB ultra is also useless now, in martial arts speed is key, we don’t stop and wait before throwing a round house kick.

Bad theory.

You also can’t animation cancel a kick irl.

An experienced fighter cuts out the useless or exaggerated movements which you could argue would be a similar process to animation canceling ie cutting out the useless/exaggerated movements.

If you don’t fully commit to the kick then your opponent shouldn’t get hit by an invisible kick.

who says you're not fully committing to it?. the useless movements are just that, useless.

also animation canceling doesn't make abilities invisible. it makes them like Bruce lee''s kicks, fast.

[Edit to remove bait]

nekura

Y’all the heat on that dude is unwarranted. The fact remains that anim canceling is a failure on the devs part to create systems. The community has embraced, adapted and eventually found enjoyment in a broken aspect of the game.

Your “skill” can largely be implemented with macros, which are quite common, but that is simply a QoL issue.

Several of these skills already had minimum animations that anim canceling / macros can’t get around and those are compounded by server lag.

Cast times on melee range skills will be annoying, but they are already there. How many times have you had Incap/Onslaught whiff or someone simply walked out of the range? This is why most people CC before an Ultimate. Not much will change other than the Heavy > Ult > Bash combo.