Another update, another patch you can't hide vampire
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yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why would a visual aspect counterbalance a statistical or mechanics based drawback? Especially if that visual drawback can be hidden by a polymorph. Sounds like terrible balancing if you ask me, you can be OP as ***, but boy you ugly=Balanced.
At least its something, and apparently enough of a drawback to have several posts about it.
The fire damage is supposedly the real drawback, but that is negated in too many ways to actually count.
Also the visual was implemented for pvp before skins and it may be a legacy they don' want to change. Identifying and targeting a vampire in pvp with fire and dawnbreaker is a valid thing, but with skins and armor now its irrelevant.
We don't get to choose what the detractors are nor do we get to explain why they are there, but they are there and that is what ZOS decided for them to be.
You choose a vampire you look like a vampire and you get the benefits of being said vampire.
You choose a breton you don't get to look like a dark elf do you? You can polymorph into a robot if you want though.
It breaks down to someone wanting a combat statistical boost without an aesthetic detractor and I understand that, but thats not how they have presented the situation.
The benefits outweigh the detractors or they don't. You are only presenting options to hide the detractors, not add anything to actually balance them by the way.
So fine, you can hide your vampire at stage 4, but doing so increases your fire damage taken by 75% and your healing received by 25%.
Balance.Edited by yodased on July 10, 2019 3:21PMTl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why would a visual aspect counterbalance a statistical or mechanics based drawback? Especially if that visual drawback can be hidden by a polymorph. Sounds like terrible balancing if you ask me, you can be OP as ***, but boy you ugly=Balanced.
Appearance is not about balancing the mechanics as much as limiting the amount of players who are vampires. It is about ensuring someone who wants those skills and passives has to make a choice about the real value to them.
Remove appearance and you will see vamp become a default requirement for nearly all magica users or players who prefer speed and stealth. Then you get the arguement of why not just make it a buff for all players without the need to go vampire since nearly all would have it anyway.
That would be boring and generic.Edited by Skwor on July 10, 2019 3:46PM3 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭Actions have consequences....REEEEEEEEEEAh, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭To all the you make choices, you should live with the consequences crowd, I have a question. Should the game also remove costumes, hats, hide helmet, and outfits, since they hide choices too?
Nobody wants to tackle this one still, huh?4 -
BrooksP✭✭✭Why would a visual aspect counterbalance a statistical or mechanics based drawback? Especially if that visual drawback can be hidden by a polymorph. Sounds like terrible balancing if you ask me, you can be OP as ***, but boy you ugly=Balanced.
It breaks down to someone wanting a combat statistical boost without an aesthetic detractor and I understand that, but thats not how they have presented the situation.
However once again you are trying to balance statistical mechanics which has an objectively defined outcome off of a subjectively "ugly" aesthetic. If we go down that route of basing balancing off of aesthetic, then we would need to nerf:
The busty Breton..
Big-booty Bosmer...
Angelic Altmer...
Irresistible Imperial..
The Ravishing Redgaurd
The Cute Khajiit
Dazziling Dunmer
Alluring Ar...
Wait what were we talking about again? Oh right my short obese Orc should be OP.
If vampire needs balancing then fine, but using looks as a balancing mechanic seems redundant and somewhat silly given the state of cosmetics currently in game. Don't get me wrong, I get the notion of visuals being a deterrent, but people still play Argonian so it doesn't seem to work.
Edited by BrooksP on July 10, 2019 4:34PM3 -
Hippie4927✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MehrunesFlagon wrote: »Could a vampire not apply makeup?
Most of the makeup doesn't showup on vampires, either. The few that do showup are in crown crates gone by.PC/NA/EP ✌️0 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why would a visual aspect counterbalance a statistical or mechanics based drawback? Especially if that visual drawback can be hidden by a polymorph. Sounds like terrible balancing if you ask me, you can be OP as ***, but boy you ugly=Balanced.
Appearance is not about balancing the mechanics as much as limiting the amount of players who are vampires. It is about ensuring someone who wants those skills and passives has to make a choice about the real value to them.
Remove appearance and you will see vamp become a default requirement for nearly all magica users or players who prefer speed and stealth. Then you get the arguement of why not just make it a buff for all players without the need to go vampire since nearly all would have it anyway.
That would be boring and generic.
All that means is that vamp is overtuned, though, and that you're giving people that don't care about aesthetics (or who like a particular skin, or who like how vampirism itself looks) a combat advantage over those who do. The idea that you can balance combat with aesthetic penalties is misguided since it doesn't affect certain people, and it's also completely unsupported by the systems ZOS has already implemented.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster2 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭
Slippery Slope argument lol. Costumes, hats, outfits ect ect. Have nothing to do with skill lines. You don't like the way Bone armor looks? don't pick the skill. You dont like Volatile armor? don't pick the skill. You don't like the way vampire looks? DON'T PICK THE SKILL.
It is not a complicated concept.0 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No problem for me anymore.
Got the cure after I went to use blade of woe and the game instantly reverted to vamp bite just as I took the action.
Dropped me into vamp 3 and lost the capability to move fast while sneaking for 6 hours - which unlike everything else on a timer does NOT keep going if you are offline.
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RogueShark✭✭✭✭✭
✭Blackmarrow Nexromancer skin best skin for a reason.
Wouldn't be against a "normal" skin tho and frankly I don't know how or why people get off on the "heuheu, it's your punishment for being a vampire!!!"
Come off it lol. There are already mechanical "punishments" in place for the mechanical benefits.
Vampires can appear mortal, just not PCs for some reason. Even stage 1 looks garbage. How does someone else playing Barbie with their own char and wanting to look nice so severely negatively impact your gameplay?
Yeeesh.PC NA
Will heal DPS for memes.3 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
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Slippery Slope argument lol. Costumes, hats, outfits ect ect. Have nothing to do with skill lines. You don't like the way Bone armor looks? don't pick the skill. You dont like Volatile armor? don't pick the skill. You don't like the way vampire looks? DON'T PICK THE SKILL.
It is not a complicated concept.
Most people taking vamp are doing so for the combat passives. Same reason they choose armor sets. Their spell animation are independent from the skin.Edited by BigBragg on July 10, 2019 5:37PM0 -
RogueShark✭✭✭✭✭
✭barney2525 wrote: »No problem for me anymore.
Got the cure after I went to use blade of woe and the game instantly reverted to vamp bite just as I took the action.
Dropped me into vamp 3 and lost the capability to move fast while sneaking for 6 hours - which unlike everything else on a timer does NOT keep going if you are offline.
Hate double posting but I'm on my phone and can't be bothered to edit.
If you decide to go back to vampirism, you can adjust your level on the fly. Put mist on your bar and spam cast-block it to drop to a desired level. Double Bloody Mara consumption if you want to go back up a stage.
BoW with feeding sucks tho. If you're on PC, the addon... I think "vampire's woe" (?) will suppress your feeding synergy so you don't have to deal with it.PC NA
Will heal DPS for memes.0 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭bgoldbeck21_ESO wrote: »I would like to hide werewolfism
You do when you don't toggle the ultimate.0 -
Since this isn't a bug and they've never, not once, spoken about changing the Vampire Appearance...
Think you're going to make a lot of these posts. Because as much as I agree the appearance change (esp. not being compatible with appearance items you spend IRL money on in the cash shop and then can't benefit from) should be optional or, at least, compatible with cash shop appearance items - this ain't changing.
This is a feature. Not a bug. Probably not something they are ever looking at "fixing" because its not broken.
So get ready to post this every patch. Cuz it ain't changing.0 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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If the Werewolf wants to use their Werewolf abilities, they have to transform and look like a werewolf.Vortigaunt wrote: »
Yeah? How about we cover all werewolves in thick black fur while we’re at it eh? Wonder what your hot blonde high elf looks with fur above her lipsstewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »You wanted to be a vamp. You're a vamp. Deal with it.
I'm shocked ...
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SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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You do when you don't toggle the ultimate.bgoldbeck21_ESO wrote: »I would like to hide werewolfism
So by that logic, vampires should not be able to use any vampire skills while they are hiding their vampirism (sp?).
I'd be OK with that, actually.
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Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
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What's to tackle, it is a false comparison. Appearance is a design trait for vampires in conjunction with the skills and passives. They intentionally made the appearance a drawback.
Costumes and everything else are purely cosmetic and have no associated skills or passives inherent to them in the design. The whole premise presented is pointless pablum.
Edited by Skwor on July 10, 2019 6:31PM0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
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You do when you don't toggle the ultimate.bgoldbeck21_ESO wrote: »I would like to hide werewolfism
So by that logic, vampires should not be able to use any vampire skills while they are hiding their vampirism (sp?).
I'd be OK with that, actually.
QFT
Exactly! Also include most of the passivesEdited by Skwor on July 10, 2019 6:28PM3 -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hippie4927 wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »Could a vampire not apply makeup?
Most of the makeup doesn't showup on vampires, either. The few that do showup are in crown crates gone by.
You misunderstood I mean in actuality a vampire could put make up on themselve's.0 -
Noxavian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Vortigaunt wrote: »stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »You wanted to be a vamp. You're a vamp. Deal with it.
Yeah? How about we cover all werewolves in thick black fur while we’re at it eh? Wonder what your hot blonde high elf looks with fur above her lips
Almost like how in ES lore vampires (except this one specific bloodline) have an altered appearance usually....?
Here's how you fix the problem: dont become an UNDEAD blood sucking creature?0 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
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Slippery Slope argument lol. Costumes, hats, outfits ect ect. Have nothing to do with skill lines. You don't like the way Bone armor looks? don't pick the skill. You dont like Volatile armor? don't pick the skill. You don't like the way vampire looks? DON'T PICK THE SKILL.
It is not a complicated concept.
Don't want a brown bear for your Warden ultimate? Don't pick the ski-oh wait actually they have a cosmetic option to change it to a gray bear, if you like, and your entire argument falls apart when examining systems ZOS has already put in place. The fact of the matter is that ZOS has consistently opened up new cosmetic options that serve as counterpoints for every single criticism against OP's desire, meaning that they're well within their right to make a request for a new skin that follows the same rules as all the other ones ZOS has put out. It also means that everyone arguing against this skin request in particular doesn't have a leg to stand on.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster3 -
Ardaghion✭✭✭✭I made my high-elf necromancer as ugly as I could before I added the vamp skill line. He's pretty ugly at stage 1, I can't wait to see how he looks at stage 4!0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
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It's not a drawback though because some people like the appearance/don't care about it. A drawback needs to be universal, not just target one type of player (those who care how their character looks).Just because something is good doesn't make it over tuned stop trying to put meaning into something that isn't there.
So what you are saying is i want free 10% regen on my stats with no drawback.
I want to mitigate 35% of all damage at low health because reasons.
So fine just add 10% regen to all characters in the game and we will be fine.
Also werewolf giving you passive regen while its slotted is a huge detractor because that is a useless ultimate until you get enough to transform. The detractors of werewolf are the loss of another ultimate, you have to transform and you lose all your secondary bar effects as well as having to build around the Wolf while veing a wet noodle out of wolf.
You can attack me all you want but this is simply you want the benefits of something without the detractors.
I don't get to tell you the reasons they made it a visual detractor. Let me quote some of the Mlgpro players when they talk about animation cancelling: its a feature and there are active counters in the game. L2P.
You keep bringing up how good the passives are and then implying that the vampirism skin is the tradeoff/drawback for those passives. I'm not the one who's arguing it's overtuned, you are every time you do this. I'm just pointing out that this is a ridiculous, illogical sentiment. Combat bonuses should be balanced around combat, not around something subjective like an aesthetic change.
What do you say to people who actually like the vamp aesthetic? Are they not playing fair because they're getting two things they like with what you describe as "no drawback"? What about people who happen to like a skin and use that, which has the consequence of hiding vampirism? Are they cheaters now? You gonna report them to ZOS for avoiding the negatives of vampirism, the negatives that you are implying are essential to keep it balanced?
And nope, slotting werewolf on your front bar is pretty standard for certain builds since you only need to switch to back bar for your good ultimate. You get free front-bar regen with no penalty. Also you're just arguing my own point for me either way, since you're trying to show that other always-on bonuses are balanced around combat mechanics and not aesthetics. Oopsie-doodle!
And contrary to your claim, I don't "want the benefits of something without the detractors". I don't even have any vampire characters. I just want more aesthetic options for more people, and I think that combat abilities need to be balanced around combat mechanics instead of subjective aesthetic preferences. It's really not hard to understand the importance of that separation.
The appearance is one of the drawbacks. That you feel it is ridiculous has no bearing on this debate, many feel it is appropriate, both are just opinions.
You argue it is illogical, ok a valid point to debate but please realise by arguing this you are declaring appearance as not an acceptable drawback to the skill line. Fine then give up some passives and skills. Something has to balance. What is illogical is removing a drawback and not replacing it. All you really are doing is asking for more, not balance.
Edited by MLGProPlayer on July 10, 2019 9:05PM6 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
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A drawback does not exist though. Appearance preferences are subjective. A drawback needs to be universal.SIGH for the last time.
It's not overtuned because it has a drawback, a detractor a balance to it.
The fact you don't like what that drawback is or agree that it should exist is irrelevant to the fact that it exists.
If you could get the vampire passives without the visual drawback its overtunedEdited by MLGProPlayer on July 10, 2019 9:06PM3 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
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What's to tackle, it is a false comparison. Appearance is a design trait for vampires in conjunction with the skills and passives. They intentionally made the appearance a drawback.
Costumes and everything else are purely cosmetic and have no associated skills or passives inherent to them in the design. The whole premise presented is pointless pablum.
My point with the comparison is that nothing else in the game follows that setup. No other piece of gear, skill, or line. All the others that even come close only show when things are active. Passives never pop up.Edited by BigBragg on July 10, 2019 9:17PM0 -
Akihiro✭I like how I look in stage 1 vampirism the best. Stage 2 I don't notice so much, but stage 3 and 4 have a lot of bulging veins, and their eyes become white which I don't like very much personally.
If we had the option to only use stage 1 vampirism as a skin, I would love that! I love looking like a pale vampire with red eyes. When I get to the later stages, I become sad when I see my red eyes turn white.
If we had an option to forgo the veins and white eyes, I would be very happy. I would be satisfied if we had the option for our appearance to remain as stage 1 vampirism, no matter what stage we're actually at.1 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭You want your Vampire to look like it did at stage 1? Feed until you get to stage 1, but you sacrifice your passives to look normal.
This is at core what the Vampire is all about. But a few of you want to look pretty while wielding some of the best passives in game? Nope.
Being a Vampire is not just a passive buff for all characters just to have and ignore being a Vampire. In my opinion you should have to have a Vampire skill slotted to recieve the passives.
This is another reason why Vampire NEEDS to be more like werewolf instead of a ignore passive that everyone abuses.1
