Stamina vs Magicka inconsistencies

ProzTh3Almighty

Thats my bad i guess i never have to worry about the heal going to others because im not a zergling but that sucks! Maybe drop that skill an just pop a 7k shield then a 14k single target burst heal that you can spam 2-3 times without killing your sustain. Or apply a dot that burst heals you for the dmg done after 10sec, or wrap yourself in healing vines, or cast a passive pet heal that heals your for 7-8k every two seconds for 8 seconds. Or shroud yourself in shadows under two 7k shields and a resto ult. Theres some options. Can you elaborate on the options for medium armor stam builds please! I forgot about bloodcraze and draining shot but i dont like my heals to stun enemies an give them cc immunity an i dnt run dual wield so what other “viable” options are their besides heavy armor and trollking?

wheem_ESO

ProzTh3Almighty wrote: »

Thats my bad i guess i never have to worry about the heal going to others because im not a zergling but that sucks! Maybe drop that skill an just pop a 7k shield then a 14k single target burst heal that you can spam 2-3 times without killing your sustain. Or apply a dot that burst heals you for the dmg done after 10sec, or wrap yourself in healing vines, or cast a passive pet heal that heals your for 7-8k every two seconds for 8 seconds. Or shroud yourself in shadows under two 7k shields and a resto ult. Theres some options. Can you elaborate on the options for medium armor stam builds please! I forgot about bloodcraze and draining shot but i dont like my heals to stun enemies an give them cc immunity an i dnt run dual wield so what other “viable” options are their besides heavy armor and trollking?

You do understand that not all PvP is done in CP-enabled Cyrodiil, right?

If a team in Battlegrounds is playing as they should (and by team I don't mean premade group with a dedicated healer), there are 3 other possible targets that most magicka-based heals can end up hitting, instead of the caster. Sometimes you can get around this by changing your character's facing, but other times you can't (and that's the case with Regeneration, since it's a 360 heal). There have been times that I died because my heals (or old version of Healing Ward, back when it was actually worth using) hit a teammate that wasn't all that injured, nor actively taking heat, while I was getting dogpiled.

A big part of why Stamina self healing is so strong is that it takes very few global cooldowns, and can be combined with dodge rolls, which don't use the GCD at all. Thus, as a general rule, it's easier for Stam to get back on the offensive once they've "cast" their heals.

ProzTh3Almighty

I can only think of two magicka based smart targeting heals, breath of life(aka the dumb morph for pvp) and healing ward prenerf. Which other ones are there that heal directly that the caster can lose?

Iskiab

booksmcread wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

Instead of making magicka morph of vigor just make regeneration and it's morph comparable in healing power.

It is, the new Vigor self healing morph is basically the same as the new rapid regen. Vigor is only better if you use the group hot morph.

Except, you don't have a chance of casting vigor and it going to some random person other than yourself.

True, personally I have no issues with that, it makes rapid regen better. I never understood that philosophy but can understand it as a solo player.

It’s like OMG, I contributed to a team mates survival! Team work is for chumps, team mates are only for hiding behind and kiting onto to try and escape in pvp! Next time I’ll try harder to be a carry, stand on healers with 15k health and 8k resistances TO MAKE SURE they die to prox det.

wheem_ESO

ProzTh3Almighty wrote: »

I can only think of two magicka based smart targeting heals, breath of life(aka the dumb morph for pvp) and healing ward prenerf. Which other ones are there that heal directly that the caster can lose?

Regeneration (Resto Staff).
Render Flesh (Necromancer).
Spirit Mender (Necromancer).
Living Trellis spam (Warden).
Cauterize (Dragon Knight).

And I suppose the same is true for the Sorcerer's Twilight Matriarch heal, but since it's a full-size heal on two targets, it's not as likely to be an issue (but it's also a 360 heal, like Regeneration?)

Iskiab wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

Instead of making magicka morph of vigor just make regeneration and it's morph comparable in healing power.

It is, the new Vigor self healing morph is basically the same as the new rapid regen. Vigor is only better if you use the group hot morph.

Except, you don't have a chance of casting vigor and it going to some random person other than yourself.

True, personally I have no issues with that, it makes rapid regen better. I never understood that philosophy but can understand it as a solo player.

It’s like OMG, I contributed to a team mates survival! Team work is for chumps, team mates are only for hiding behind and kiting onto to try and escape in pvp! Next time I’ll try harder to be a carry, stand on healers with 15k health and 8k resistances TO MAKE SURE they die to prox det.

The problem isn't that you heal a teammate - I do that on purpose all the time - it's that the "smart" targeting often makes the wrong decision, unless you're able to manually prevent it from doing so. Like you can have a teammate that's at 80% HP and not being attacked, while you're extremely low and getting execute spammed...yet the heal goes to your teammate. This used to happen all the time with Healing Ward, even repeatedly refreshing the shield on the same person, though they're already shielded and not taking damage...while I was getting dogpiled.

Sometimes you get rooted, or are forced to face a particular direction for mobility purposes, or a teammate just so happens to run right in front of you while you're trying to spam heal yourself.

ProzTh3Almighty

wheem_ESO wrote: »

ProzTh3Almighty wrote: »

I can only think of two magicka based smart targeting heals, breath of life(aka the dumb morph for pvp) and healing ward prenerf. Which other ones are there that heal directly that the caster can lose?

Regeneration (Resto Staff).
Render Flesh (Necromancer).
Spirit Mender (Necromancer).
Living Trellis spam (Warden).
Cauterize (Dragon Knight).

And I suppose the same is true for the Sorcerer's Twilight Matriarch heal, but since it's a full-size heal on two targets, it's not as likely to be an issue (but it's also a 360 heal, like Regeneration?)

Iskiab wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

Instead of making magicka morph of vigor just make regeneration and it's morph comparable in healing power.

It is, the new Vigor self healing morph is basically the same as the new rapid regen. Vigor is only better if you use the group hot morph.

Except, you don't have a chance of casting vigor and it going to some random person other than yourself.

True, personally I have no issues with that, it makes rapid regen better. I never understood that philosophy but can understand it as a solo player.

It’s like OMG, I contributed to a team mates survival! Team work is for chumps, team mates are only for hiding behind and kiting onto to try and escape in pvp! Next time I’ll try harder to be a carry, stand on healers with 15k health and 8k resistances TO MAKE SURE they die to prox det.

The problem isn't that you heal a teammate - I do that on purpose all the time - it's that the "smart" targeting often makes the wrong decision, unless you're able to manually prevent it from doing so. Like you can have a teammate that's at 80% HP and not being attacked, while you're extremely low and getting execute spammed...yet the heal goes to your teammate. This used to happen all the time with Healing Ward, even repeatedly refreshing the shield on the same person, though they're already shielded and not taking damage...while I was getting dogpiled.

Sometimes you get rooted, or are forced to face a particular direction for mobility purposes, or a teammate just so happens to run right in front of you while you're trying to spam heal yourself.

Yeah but dont all those examples except regeneration have other healing options available to them. Like 3 each? All from their skills lines an not the resto line?

lookstwice

wrong thread.

wheem_ESO

ProzTh3Almighty wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

ProzTh3Almighty wrote: »

I can only think of two magicka based smart targeting heals, breath of life(aka the dumb morph for pvp) and healing ward prenerf. Which other ones are there that heal directly that the caster can lose?

Regeneration (Resto Staff).
Render Flesh (Necromancer).
Spirit Mender (Necromancer).
Living Trellis spam (Warden).
Cauterize (Dragon Knight).

And I suppose the same is true for the Sorcerer's Twilight Matriarch heal, but since it's a full-size heal on two targets, it's not as likely to be an issue (but it's also a 360 heal, like Regeneration?)

Iskiab wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

Instead of making magicka morph of vigor just make regeneration and it's morph comparable in healing power.

It is, the new Vigor self healing morph is basically the same as the new rapid regen. Vigor is only better if you use the group hot morph.

Except, you don't have a chance of casting vigor and it going to some random person other than yourself.

True, personally I have no issues with that, it makes rapid regen better. I never understood that philosophy but can understand it as a solo player.

It’s like OMG, I contributed to a team mates survival! Team work is for chumps, team mates are only for hiding behind and kiting onto to try and escape in pvp! Next time I’ll try harder to be a carry, stand on healers with 15k health and 8k resistances TO MAKE SURE they die to prox det.

The problem isn't that you heal a teammate - I do that on purpose all the time - it's that the "smart" targeting often makes the wrong decision, unless you're able to manually prevent it from doing so. Like you can have a teammate that's at 80% HP and not being attacked, while you're extremely low and getting execute spammed...yet the heal goes to your teammate. This used to happen all the time with Healing Ward, even repeatedly refreshing the shield on the same person, though they're already shielded and not taking damage...while I was getting dogpiled.

Sometimes you get rooted, or are forced to face a particular direction for mobility purposes, or a teammate just so happens to run right in front of you while you're trying to spam heal yourself.

Yeah but dont all those examples except regeneration have other healing options available to them. Like 3 each? All from their skills lines an not the resto line?

Warden gets access to a ground-targeted heal that either takes 6 seconds to "pop" and heal, or requires a second global cooldown to trigger (if you use that morph). There's also the spammable cone heal that has a morph for Stamina Wardens, which means it's not a strictly Magicka-based heal (and the Stam version also isn't subject to silence). Then there's the "Spiderman Vine" that has a morph that will put a HOT on both the caster and the target, but it can't be used without either a friendly player or your bear pet (which is bad in PvP) to target. The HOT morph is also getting it's heal cut down by about 1/4 in 5.1. That won't make it worthless, since it's a very strong HOT on live, but if you don't have a friendly target available in a decent position, it's a dead bar slot.

Necromancers will have access to a ground-targeted AOE heal, and a corpse tether HOT. The latter requires sometimes finnicky targeting of an available corpse, can be LOS'd, will break if a targeted player respawns, and scales from all offensive stats in 5.1 (so again - not magicka exclusive). The Necromancer's ground-heal is actually quite solid if there's a corpse available where you cast it, since that'll cause it to cleanse 3 debuffs as well, but it heals for less than Render Flesh and won't provide the armor buff of the Resistant Flesh morph. I honestly don't think I've ever seen any Necromancer other than myself using it in BGs, but it's pretty good for team support.

Dragon Knights do have some incredibly strong self healing, for sure. But Templars - which I didn't mention earlier, since you already had - don't really get any other class-specific healing, besides standing in their ritual. And without the Matriarch, or using Stam + the cast time of Dark Conversion, Sorcerers don't either.

Getting shafted by "smart" targeting is annoying, and not something that Stamina builds really have to deal with. I think Regeneration would end up being too good if it always applied to both the caster and up to 1 other target, but it'd be nice if the "smart" targeting would prioritize the caster in most cases.

Edit: I forgot that the Warden's "Spiderman Vine" also scales with all offensive stats, as of the Elsweyr patch, so that's also not magicka exclusive now.