Stamina vs Magicka inconsistencies

SeaUnicorn

With the latest changes to Caltrops there is now easily accessible source of AOE fracture for all stam toons. However there's no source of aoe breach. Which makes magicka less viable in trials such as Sunspire where lots of fights are AOE.
It also has implications on PVP.

There is a source of magickasteal and health steal (single target and aoe) but no source of stamina steal.

If the game is going to be consistent, then please consider consistency between stam and mag dps, because the way it goes magicka DPS is not desired in majority of the trials. PVP is ruled by stamina too. And having to run hircines on my healer in stam optimized trials is just annoying.

MellowMagic

Caltrops is probably not going to be slotted on most stam builds. The damage is pitiful and not worth the token fracture imo.

SeaUnicorn

@MellowMagic you can slot them on OT. Only one person needs to carry them.

templesus

Better run a Magden in group

John_Falstaff

MellowMagic wrote: »

Caltrops is probably not going to be slotted on most stam builds. The damage is pitiful and not worth the token fracture imo.

I'll definitely be slotting it as a tank on trash fights whenever I see that I can benefit from AoE fracture. No need for DDs to slot it, and reduced cost makes it a decent group utility for support roles.

SeaUnicorn

@templesus please elaborate, I don't play magden. Does it have a source of aoe breach?

SeaUnicorn

@templesus please elaborate, I don't play magden. Does it have a source of aoe breach?

Saril_Durzam

I agree. And now that we´re on the way, please make a Magicka morph of Vigor. Thank you.

grannas211

slofwnd wrote: »

@templesus please elaborate, I don't play magden. Does it have a source of aoe breach?

Deep Fissure causes Major Breach for like 6 seconds or so

SeaUnicorn

Oh cool, might run it on a warden healer. Though the area of Caltrops is wider. So it will require better stacks and more often casts.

Wuuffyy

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

I agree. And now that we´re on the way, please make a Magicka morph of Vigor. Thank you.

No.

Saril_Durzam

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

I agree. And now that we´re on the way, please make a Magicka morph of Vigor. Thank you.

No.

Oh but but but... c´mon!! I mean c´moooonn!!!

SeaUnicorn

Instead of making magicka morph of vigor just make regeneration and it's morph comparable in healing power.

Soul_Demon

Another thing you might want to take a very serious look at when comparing the stam to mag skills- you have globally a much lower cost to stam skills if you look at them over all now- dramatically so when compared to the global cost of mag skils. Noticed in notes several times references to balance of the game as a whole, if this is the goal of a lot of the damage reductions, timer reductions ect of this patch, you might want to consider what the players will shift to when considering sustainability in a fight and how that compares to such dramatic cost differences in the two types of damage. Not all of the skills in each are this way, but over all I think you will see stam skills cost much less as a group when compared to mag counterparts.

The result will likely be players shift to stam due to the abilities cost contributing the better sustain for damage.

SeaUnicorn

@Soul_Demon good point. Stam sustain is a chore but you don't rely on a single skill to keep it up. Mag sustain is a chore and you have to run ele drain to be able to sustain at all.

darkblue5

slofwnd wrote: »

Instead of making magicka morph of vigor just make regeneration and it's morph comparable in healing power.

Pretty sure they did this Natch Potes?

SeaUnicorn

This match potes vigor is much more powerful and both morphs are stam based, it always heals the player, with one morph healing allies around the player. while regeneration provides less healing and only applies to one person that might not be you

MashmalloMan

Stamina will never get Stamina steal since all skills are effectively 15% cheaper, but sources of sustain are the same. 200 Stam Regen is effectively more than 200 Mag Regen since you're able to do more with that resource in your pool. In pve you don't actually require sprint/block/dodge all that much, the missing Stamina Steal Debuff doesn't matter.

Magicka Steal is mandatory for Mag DPS and I'd rather not add something like Stamina Steal to the game which would then require ZOS to nerf Stam Sustain to compensate.

Ever try killing a 3m solo dummy without Magicka steal or Balance? It's next to impossible, but Stam builds can do it.

ProzTh3Almighty

They changed Regeneration to act as a solid single target hot with a 9k burst heal attached to it on mutagen morph. Very comparable to old vigor however new vigor is stronger than that but has to be to balance/make up for lack of class based healing options magicka has access too. Some classes not withstanding magicka has better access to heals in the class kit(sorry magblade) an stam heals are always compared at the heavy armor troll king or major mending heavy armor Dk’s and stam wardens level which isnt fair to other classes/builds which utilize medium armor an such. On live with 32 points into blessed almost all my stam toons have a 16k ish vigor tooltip buffed in medium. With rally maybe giving a 12k heal every 30secs. The only way i survive burst is with 5 roll dodges +2 vigors (aka no stam) or a fully timed out rally which is a very rare thing with a 30sec build up+ a tri-pot. These stam heal changes are healthy for regular medium armor builds but worrisome for heavy armor builds, especially when you add health recovery. Sadly major defile is a hard debuff to come by so i think health recovery should be looked at being effected by battle spirit since its overbearing when built right with very little loss to dmg or sustain or tankability. Just what i think.
Signed,
Lonely Solo Medium Armor 2H&Bow StamCro/Sorc/Blade/Warden

Iskiab

slofwnd wrote: »

Instead of making magicka morph of vigor just make regeneration and it's morph comparable in healing power.

It is, the new Vigor self healing morph is basically the same as the new rapid regen. Vigor is only better if you use the group hot morph.

booksmcread

Iskiab wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

Instead of making magicka morph of vigor just make regeneration and it's morph comparable in healing power.

It is, the new Vigor self healing morph is basically the same as the new rapid regen. Vigor is only better if you use the group hot morph.

Except, you don't have a chance of casting vigor and it going to some random person other than yourself.

wheem_ESO

The Necromancer's Unnerving Boneyard skill applies both Major Fracture and Major Breach in a 6m area.

My main gripe with the new version of Caltrops is that they buffed the snare up to 50% in PvP. This is better than Wall of Frost's 40%, covers a wider area, doesn't require using a specific weapon type, and can be targeted at range. All added in alongside the resistance debuff, which will apparently remain in place for 4 seconds after leaving the area.

ProzTh3Almighty

booksmcread wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

Instead of making magicka morph of vigor just make regeneration and it's morph comparable in healing power.

It is, the new Vigor self healing morph is basically the same as the new rapid regen. Vigor is only better if you use the group hot morph.

Except, you don't have a chance of casting vigor and it going to some random person other than yourself.

Sigh...
Regeneration is always applied to the caster. I think your confusing it with Healing Ward. In comparison to Resolving Vigor you would want to take the Rapid Regen morph but the other morph Mutagen is close in HOT standards an also has a 8-9k+ burst heal and cleanse attached to it if you drop below 20%

ProzTh3Almighty

slofwnd wrote: »

This match potes vigor is much more powerful and both morphs are stam based, it always heals the player, with one morph healing allies around the player. while regeneration provides less healing and only applies to one person that might not be you

In regards to total healing power I think it bears reminding you that stamina builds have vigor and rally. Thats it. except health recovery which shouldnt be a part of the discussion unless we are proposing it be effected by battle spirit/ and warden stam heal which is a outlier. Magicka classes for the most part all have two + class based heal options, a healing weapon line, and shields if they so choose. I could spend the time listing every class based heal for magicka and what their effectiveness is compared to vigor and rally as is currently on live but thats a waste. Lets just say look at it objectively an realize the problem isn't the new vigor and rally. Its new vigor plus cloak, major mending classes like DK and StamDen, health recovery builds, and heavy armor. Medium armor needs the heals so stop it! Mah Vigor!

Saril_Durzam

Are you seriously comparing Vigor, a great all-around heal not tied with any Weapon, with Regeneration, a great heal attached to a Weapon which means only effective on healers and maybe Pvp mag DPS?

They´re very, very different skills.

Rianai

ProzTh3Almighty wrote: »

In regards to total healing power I think it bears reminding you that stamina builds have vigor and rally. Thats it.

That's simply not true. Stamina has more heals than Vigor and Rally. And just because magicka has more healing skills aviable doesn't equal magicka having better healing. Quality > Quantity.

And RR is not guaranteed to heal the caster. It can go to anyone, just like healing ward (it actually seems to prioritize other players before the caster - should be the other way around and only go to other players if it is already on the caster).

ecru

wheem_ESO wrote: »

The Necromancer's Unnerving Boneyard skill applies both Major Fracture and Major Breach in a 6m area.

My main gripe with the new version of Caltrops is that they buffed the snare up to 50% in PvP. This is better than Wall of Frost's 40%, covers a wider area, doesn't require using a specific weapon type, and can be targeted at range. All added in alongside the resistance debuff, which will apparently remain in place for 4 seconds after leaving the area.

yeah i don't understand why they're buffing snares at this point. because of the way movement speed is calculated, even a 30% snare is extremely strong and i don't see a good reason for all snares to be anything over that amount. if you need a snare to be over 30% to get any benefit out of it, you need to git gud.

i know someone mentioned boneyard has aoe fracture/breach, but it covers a smaller area compared to caltrops.

wheem_ESO

ecru wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

The Necromancer's Unnerving Boneyard skill applies both Major Fracture and Major Breach in a 6m area.

My main gripe with the new version of Caltrops is that they buffed the snare up to 50% in PvP. This is better than Wall of Frost's 40%, covers a wider area, doesn't require using a specific weapon type, and can be targeted at range. All added in alongside the resistance debuff, which will apparently remain in place for 4 seconds after leaving the area.

yeah i don't understand why they're buffing snares at this point. because of the way movement speed is calculated, even a 30% snare is extremely strong and i don't see a good reason for all snares to be anything over that amount. if you need a snare to be over 30% to get any benefit out of it, you need to git gud.

i know someone mentioned boneyard has aoe fracture/breach, but it covers a smaller area compared to caltrops.

Right, Unnerving Boneyard is 6m on both debuffs, vs Caltrops' 8m on physical debuff. For PvE, I'd think this would generally make Unnerving Boneyard more attractive (assuming you have a Necromancer around), but Caltrops is clearly a lot better for PvP. Boneyard covers a smaller area, as you point out, plus the debuff is gone the instant you leave said area, and it doesn't snare.

validifyedneb18_ESO

slofwnd wrote: »

With the latest changes to Caltrops there is now easily accessible source of AOE fracture for all stam toons. However there's no source of aoe breach. Which makes magicka less viable in trials such as Sunspire where lots of fights are AOE.
It also has implications on PVP.

There is a source of magickasteal and health steal (single target and aoe) but no source of stamina steal.

If the game is going to be consistent, then please consider consistency between stam and mag dps, because the way it goes magicka DPS is not desired in majority of the trials. PVP is ruled by stamina too. And having to run hircines on my healer in stam optimized trials is just annoying.

Stamina builds just got completely castrated in terms of ranged capabilities. Have some respects. Metas are dying out here.

Sordidfairytale

Lets take a step back.

My magic DPS has passive spell penetration on armor that stacks with Breach. That doesn't require me to do anything except wear 5 pieces of light armor. That's 4,884 penetration without CP or additional skill.

Stam DPS do not have an equal passive weapon pen on medium armor.

booksmcread

ProzTh3Almighty wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

Instead of making magicka morph of vigor just make regeneration and it's morph comparable in healing power.

It is, the new Vigor self healing morph is basically the same as the new rapid regen. Vigor is only better if you use the group hot morph.

Except, you don't have a chance of casting vigor and it going to some random person other than yourself.

Sigh...
Regeneration is always applied to the caster. I think your confusing it with Healing Ward. In comparison to Resolving Vigor you would want to take the Rapid Regen morph but the other morph Mutagen is close in HOT standards an also has a 8-9k+ burst heal and cleanse attached to it if you drop below 20%

You should try reading the patch notes.