Conjured Ward Changes Are Inconsistent!

Minno

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Please , stop comparing reactive and proactive defence.

we need to nerf some of these tooltip warriors.

sly007

Vortigaunt wrote: »

sly007 wrote: »

Vortigaunt wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

You do realize that is even worse, right? It means you can stack less into your primary resource / spell damage since you will have to invest into a secondary resource in order to raise the cap. Something heals do not have to do.

this is because heals don't give you 150% health. heals take you from 1%-100% but can't go past that, wards do. you effectively can have 150% health as a sorc, which on my sorc is 21k health, 32k with hardened ward up. that is a huge difference.

Yes you can have 150% health for 6 seconds. How about when you’re at 20% health and go up to 70% while the enemy stamblade dunks you with killer’s blade spam? What do you do then when your yuuuuuuuuge 50% health shield vanishes before you can put up a new one?

Y’all posting on this thread have never played a mag class have you

This is when you make sure you have a source of healing, be it hot or burst.

So you’re stacking shields, hots and also a burst heal? Bar space hello? Please enlighten me how you’d fit all that on a mag sorc build that doesn’t rely on a 20 man Zerg to do damage

An example would be my mag dk. I used rapid regen, cauterize, and annulment.1 shield, 2 heals. A mag sorcerer could use 2 shields and 1 heal or choose to use 3 shields. The point is you always have the option of using less or more depending on what you are comfortable with and also works for you.

Lord_Eomer

Shields are currently broken, they need rest for sometime as ZOS is not willing to remove Shield Stacking

leepalmer95

Vortigaunt wrote: »

sly007 wrote: »

Vortigaunt wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

You do realize that is even worse, right? It means you can stack less into your primary resource / spell damage since you will have to invest into a secondary resource in order to raise the cap. Something heals do not have to do.

this is because heals don't give you 150% health. heals take you from 1%-100% but can't go past that, wards do. you effectively can have 150% health as a sorc, which on my sorc is 21k health, 32k with hardened ward up. that is a huge difference.

Yes you can have 150% health for 6 seconds. How about when you’re at 20% health and go up to 70% while the enemy stamblade dunks you with killer’s blade spam? What do you do then when your yuuuuuuuuge 50% health shield vanishes before you can put up a new one?

Y’all posting on this thread have never played a mag class have you

This is when you make sure you have a source of healing, be it hot or burst.

So you’re stacking shields, hots and also a burst heal? Bar space hello? Please enlighten me how you’d fit all that on a mag sorc build that doesn’t rely on a 20 man Zerg to do damage

Try not using pets.

Vortigaunt

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vortigaunt wrote: »

sly007 wrote: »

Vortigaunt wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

You do realize that is even worse, right? It means you can stack less into your primary resource / spell damage since you will have to invest into a secondary resource in order to raise the cap. Something heals do not have to do.

this is because heals don't give you 150% health. heals take you from 1%-100% but can't go past that, wards do. you effectively can have 150% health as a sorc, which on my sorc is 21k health, 32k with hardened ward up. that is a huge difference.

Yes you can have 150% health for 6 seconds. How about when you’re at 20% health and go up to 70% while the enemy stamblade dunks you with killer’s blade spam? What do you do then when your yuuuuuuuuge 50% health shield vanishes before you can put up a new one?

Y’all posting on this thread have never played a mag class have you

This is when you make sure you have a source of healing, be it hot or burst.

So you’re stacking shields, hots and also a burst heal? Bar space hello? Please enlighten me how you’d fit all that on a mag sorc build that doesn’t rely on a 20 man Zerg to do damage

Try not using pets.

@leepalmer95 hehexd funny

You do realize mateiarch builds actually have an easier time with bar space than non pets ones right?

Ivan04

Those points are incorrect in a lot of ways, but I see other people explained it already. I can only add that shields are a more potent form of defense, because you can shield yourself in advance of taking damage.

Derra

Ivan04 wrote: »

Those points are incorrect in a lot of ways, but I see other people explained it already. I can only add that shields are a more potent form of defense, because you can shield yourself in advance of taking damage.

Which is too shortsighted when looking at it - because you´re also required to shield yourself prior to taking dmg to not get stomped.
This becomes problematic in situations where you don´t know when or how much you´ll be dmged in two ways:
1. You have constant drain on resources from keeping shields up (or refresh only slightly weakened shields).
2. You constantly lose gcds you could use otherwise for offense (like you can on builds with reactive defense).

Then you have all the other arguments of shields vs heals. Like defile vs vitality/mending/classpassives/itemsets modificators. Block interaction. Execute interaction etc. pp

I agreed with anyone hating on shield(stacking) last patch. I hated harness with a passion myself (you can probs find comments from 3 years ago where i advocate to remove stacking and rework harness sustain).
The current iteration of sorc - (lack of class healing synergies) and light amor shields compared to healing alternatives are however nothing short of insufficient.

I dare anyone to use dampen in exchange for their class burst heal on necro/dk/templar and tell me how it´s a more potent form of defense.

Vortigaunt

@Ivan04 ^

Ivan04

Well, all mag classes have rapid regen now, which is supposed to give you 5k hps in pvp, so I guess that's just a part of this new standartization strategy.

Derra

Alright. 5k hps in pvp hyperbole makes for a perfect argument.
All stam builds have 5k hps vigor then - and they can dodge a lot

Aedaryl

Seriously Hardened ward cost way too much.

Harness Magicka was the reason why sorcerer sustain was too easy openworld.


You rightfully nerfed harness Magicka sustain. There is no reason to nerf Hardened ward sustain on top of that.

I play with hardened ward alone and sustaining while actively fighting on live is already very hard.

On PTS you cannot sustain a sorc with breton + huge regen while fighting. Forcing sorc to streak away and constantly disengaging the fight to dark exchange isn't fun for anyone. No one want a sorc constantly streaking even in 1v1.

And for the sorc, with the HoT madness, each dark exchange remove entirely the pressure and allow to the enemy to reset the fight, while being vulnerable because of the cast time.

Sorc need sustain buff now that harness carry is over.

I challenge anyone to use Dampen Magicka instead of their burst heal and see how sustain is.

Vortigaunt

Never thought I’d agree with aedaryl.

Shields were never an issue on live, especially if you only have one shied.

ShieldSTACKING was an issue, and that was only possible because of harness sustain. That got gutted... why nerf shields?

Feric51

Actual footage of new conjured ward shield usage on PTS.....

Galarthor

There isn't really much to argue about here.

Objectively, wards will cost the same as Breath of Life but provide far less utility - i.e. their utility per unit of magicka is lower (far lower). That is neither balanced nor "comparable".

Neither the 9% / 18% nerf nor the horrendous cost increase are warranted.

I really wonder how one could come up with such a thing, especially given that nowadays everything is supposed to follow rules and to be standardized.

Also the fact that Light Armor Wards are now essentially equivalent to sorc class wards is a joke. Where is my Breath of Life in the Restoration skill line?

I would really like to know the ZOS reasoning behind both these changes.
1) The supposed "standard" these shield changes are adhering to.
2) The fact that iconic class abilities become equivalent to skills of the armor and weapon lines.

ThePainGuy

Some interesting discussion on shields in general. With the changes on the PTS, shield stacking should be less of a problems on most classes because healing ward/ward ally had its max shield size decreased. Now on mag sorc the cost of conjured ward has been increased significantly while having the effective shield size decreased by 9%. I think for PVE, the changes should not be very harsh. In PVP though, its a different story. Shields are very expensive and has become a very inefficient for of defense compared to what medium armor has in shuffle and heavy has in resistances. However, I do recognize that shields historically were a problem in the past. I think extending shield times from 6sec to 8 or 10secs may not be a bad idea in light of the current changes on PTS. At least make shields a little bit more cost efficient given the multiple changes over the past 3-4 patches.

RavenSworn

Vortigaunt wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Vortigaunt wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

You do realize that is even worse, right? It means you can stack less into your primary resource / spell damage since you will have to invest into a secondary resource in order to raise the cap. Something heals do not have to do.

this is because heals don't give you 150% health. heals take you from 1%-100% but can't go past that, wards do. you effectively can have 150% health as a sorc, which on my sorc is 21k health, 32k with hardened ward up. that is a huge difference.

Yes you can have 150% health for 6 seconds. How about when you’re at 20% health and go up to 70% while the enemy stamblade dunks you with killer’s blade spam? What do you do then when your yuuuuuuuuge 50% health shield vanishes before you can put up a new one?

Y’all posting on this thread have never played a mag class have you

i dont pvp. and when i have to, i just "zerg surf" or whatever you sweaty tryhards that pvp call it, i am talking from a pve perspective.

in pve though, in the scenario you say there, low health and need to heal, i would already have surge going, and then use the ward to protect myself till that picked me up. next patch, you will have rapid regen, insane healing in 5 seconds(i have a 30k over 5 seconds on my sorc tooltip) or healing ward.

In pvp you have healers. Nobody uses shields in pve in 2019. If you’re clueless please don’t engage in balance discussions

Well... With the changes coming to healers you might wanna get down that high horse of yours and grab a shield. Or maybe a support ult for the group in times of need.

Also, if you can't see past 10k shield adding effectively 10k health and therefore even after an 8k damage, you still have 2k shield remaining... I'm not too sure if you understand maths.

Adernath

Derra wrote: »

I dare anyone to use dampen in exchange for their class burst heal on necro/dk/templar and tell me how it´s a more potent form of defense.

^This QFT

Fact is that some very skilled sorcs owned many bad players, which as a consequence QQed on forums in endless hate threads. Yea nerf sorc threads got even a meme here. ZOS reacted to these posts by leaving a totally gimped class instead of actually playing the game with a sorc and testing how it feels. Ending up with a general skill line comparable to a class skill line (yet another nerf to shields!) is just proof that they have no clue how sorcs in light armor are supposed to be played.

Dagoth_Rac

Ivan04 wrote: »

Well, all mag classes have rapid regen now, which is supposed to give you 5k hps in pvp, so I guess that's just a part of this new standartization strategy.

You have to slot a resto staff to get rapid regen. That puts serious limitations on your build in ways that Vigor and class heals do not.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

I probably wont see the difference before cap my sorc had a shield of about 15k and now its about 9k with the cap

So if i understand correctly the nerf should pass in the over the cap part of my shield

Derra

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

I probably wont see the difference before cap my sorc had a shield of about 15k and now its about 9k with the cap

So if i understand correctly the nerf should pass in the over the cap part of my shield

For pve yes - you´re most likely only going to notice the massive cost increase.
For pvp it´s unlikely you won´t see the 9% shield loss unless you ran something very off meta.

Ragnaroek93

The nerfs to Hardened Ward should be reverted imo. Nerfs to pet and harness are enough. Sorc doesn't have much beside Hardened Ward and will definitely struggle a lot in a dot heavy meta.

Derra

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The nerfs to Hardened Ward should be reverted imo. Nerfs to pet and harness are enough. Sorc doesn't have much beside Hardened Ward and will definitely struggle a lot in a dot heavy meta.

I can live with the nerf to shield strengh if zos has deemed hardened spam too hard to break.

The issue is the cost increase to adhere to burst heal standards for an ability that has to be used permanently instead of only reactively - and thus is utilized in a fundamentally different way to burst heals.

Emma_Overload

Derra wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The nerfs to Hardened Ward should be reverted imo. Nerfs to pet and harness are enough. Sorc doesn't have much beside Hardened Ward and will definitely struggle a lot in a dot heavy meta.

I can live with the nerf to shield strengh if zos has deemed hardened spam too hard to break.

The issue is the cost increase to adhere to burst heal standards for an ability that has to be used permanently instead of only reactively - and thus is utilized in a fundamentally different way to burst heals.

Yeah, heals are cumulative (up to Max health), but shields are not. Recasting a shield wastes whatever was left of the last shield. This should be taken into account.

olsborg

Worth mentioning that shields do not heal you. If youre at execute range and you shield up youre still gonna get executed very fast if you cant manage to heal.

Im for nerfing shields and preferably shieldsstacking, but the nerf to sorc shield is too much imo because it was triplenerfed. Cost increase, size reduction and another size reduction on the hardward morph.

DODHitman

Good Post @Galarthor !! We have been nerfed to oblivion and back on these shields already.....I come back to see, yet another. I really pray they dont go live with this crap. Its nuts to see all the stam characters dodging, rolling, blocking and now bad*** vigor. But hey mag characters......your shields are OP lmfao......

Master_Kas

olsborg wrote: »

Worth mentioning that shields do not heal you. If youre at execute range and you shield up youre still gonna get executed very fast if you cant manage to heal.

Im for nerfing shields and preferably shieldsstacking, but the nerf to sorc shield is too much imo because it was triplenerfed. Cost increase, size reduction and another size reduction on the hardward morph.

Think empowered ward could be used now? Or is it to small?

Can't get on the PTS right now :<

olsborg

Master_Kas wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Worth mentioning that shields do not heal you. If youre at execute range and you shield up youre still gonna get executed very fast if you cant manage to heal.

Im for nerfing shields and preferably shieldsstacking, but the nerf to sorc shield is too much imo because it was triplenerfed. Cost increase, size reduction and another size reduction on the hardward morph.

Think empowered ward could be used now? Or is it to small?

Can't get on the PTS right now :<

Remains to be seen(will only test once eu chars are copied), but I fairly sure it has the same issue that its always had, its too small for pvp.

pieratsos

Minno wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Please , stop comparing reactive and proactive defence.

we need to nerf some of these tooltip warriors.

Said the biggest tooltip warrior in the forum

BlackMadara

Class skills should be stronger than non class skills. Allow these to be in their "rule breaker" category

olsborg

Derra wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The nerfs to Hardened Ward should be reverted imo. Nerfs to pet and harness are enough. Sorc doesn't have much beside Hardened Ward and will definitely struggle a lot in a dot heavy meta.

I can live with the nerf to shield strengh if zos has deemed hardened spam too hard to break.

The issue is the cost increase to adhere to burst heal standards for an ability that has to be used permanently instead of only reactively - and thus is utilized in a fundamentally different way to burst heals.

Yes indeedy👍🏻