Am I the only one worried about standardization?

srfrogg23

Looking through the patch notes, I noticed that in a lot of cases they alluded to a number of abilities being changed to "be more in line with..." or "in accordance with..." different ability categories "like damage over time abilities" and so on. Am I the only one who sees that as a bit of a negative?

For people who aren't understanding what I'm getting at, I'm talking about homogenization. Streamlining. Dumbing down. The type of balancing that devs do to ensure build variety but ultimately just ends up destroying it because suddenly everything acts the same because they want all abilities to be interchangeable so dps parses all look the same.

I really don't like where this is heading. Based on my experience with other games, this type design only leads to an insipid "do you want green fire or red fire" scenario. I think that it is ok for certain abilities to outperform others from a numerical perspective as long as they hold other strengths and weaknesses. That's what makes build variety more unique and interesting.

rotaugen454

No

Muzzick

Yeah I'm pretty sure down the road we'll be picking classes based on our favorite color

Agenericname

Yes, it's a concern. I always knew this ride would end one day though.

CambionDaemon

It has been on the cards for a while I'm afraid.

CipherNine

The writing is on the wall. It is rather apparent that the path of this combat team is on is the homogenization of the game.
The whole appeal of ESO is that it wasn't like every other standardized boring ass MMO. But their vision is to just turn into every other MMO out that with no Uniqueness just a boring flat standardization of everything.

SirAndy

Homogenization in the name of build diversity, the literal definition of an oxymoron ...

Nemesis7884

thats the issue - pvp requires standardization for balance whereas pve requires synergy and complementation to keep class identity and foster group play

balancing these at the same time will be really tricky...

I think what they will have to do if they continue to standardize is to introduce and utilize many more minor/major (de)buffs to get both out of both worlds...

This will also open up more options for sets

Starlock

CipherNine wrote: »

The writing is on the wall. It is rather apparent that the path of this combat team is on is the homogenization of the game.
The whole appeal of ESO is that it wasn't like every other standardized boring ass MMO. But their vision is to just turn into every other MMO out that with no Uniqueness just a boring flat standardization of everything.

The uniqueness comes - and always has come to my mind - from the creativity you put into your character designs. By the abilities you choose to use and not to use. By the item sets you select that complement your character theme. By the styles you have them wear. By the character voice you give them. By their personality and mannerisms.

I'd never touched an MMO before ESO (well, unless you count MUDs). The whole appeal of the game for me was something entirely different than it is for you. That's one of the beauties of this game - it appeals to many different demographics for different reasons. It's part of why this game is successful. As the game evolves, there comes a time where it fails to appeal to certain people anymore, but then appeals more to others that it didn't before. It happens, and is what it is. The question to ask ourselves is when it is time to move on.

magictucktuck

I kinda understand but I agree I want classes and skills to be different. But everyone complains about anything op and screams so loud until it's changed I can hardly blame them. Plus the game is getting older and if they don't do this now it will be to hard to change anything in the future once they mostly move on to other things. Streamlining things makes easier to continue to update with less manpower so it makes sense from a business prospective which they are a business. And I bet we get updates for a LOT longer this way. But that's just a guess .

SirAndy

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I think what they will have to do if they continue to standardize is to introduce and utilize many more minor/major (de)buffs to get both out of both worlds...

Or they could expand on Battle Spirit and have it manipulate (gear/skill) stats in PvP zones to put players on a more equal footing while not having any effect on PvE.

CipherNine

SirAndy wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I think what they will have to do if they continue to standardize is to introduce and utilize many more minor/major (de)buffs to get both out of both worlds...

Or they could expand on Battle Spirit and have it manipulate (gear/skill) stats in PvP zones to put players on a more equal footing while not having any effect on PvE.

That makes too much sense for ZOS.

idk

rotaugen454 wrote: »

No

Same. The homogenization of this game has been an issue since at least Morrowind. I think shortly before. First I can recall was making the magicka return from ele drain and siphoning spirit into magicka steal. Before a well organized group ran both. Now it is pointless to run both.

However, I think it is inevitable. Not only for server performance but also this game is to much of a challenge for Zos to manage. I cannot say a different manager could organize the team to figure out this game better but this simplification of the game is the best we will get under Matt.

likecats

So far it is mostly positive. But if overdone can be negative.

There are so many underperforming abilities in eso that balancing will lead to a net benefit than the opposite when it comes to build diversity.

Go back to the time when sharpened/defending was OP.
Many people said they are dumbing down the game by nerfing sharpened and buffing others to be in line so they all do the same thing. Many people argued it is 'insightful' to know that sharpened is stronger than all other traits. I would argue otherwise. Ever since they nerfed sharpened and buffed other traits, weapons traits balance have been better than ever and there are far more build options you can consider than with one OP sharpened trait.

If I could choose between 1 OP meta, and 10 'standardized' options with small differences, then I would pick the 10 standardized options everytime.

ChunkyCat

Are you the only one?

No. There are several of you thinking the same idiotic ideas about a video game.

SidraWillowsky

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Are you the only one?

No. There are several of you thinking the same idiotic ideas about a video game.

More idiotic than berating people on a video game forum that you've been on since 2015?

Nepenthe

Which is it with y'all? They're either nerfing non-class abilities to make way for more diversity, or they're making everyone the same. Which one?

Gandrhulf_Harbard

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Looking through the patch notes, I noticed that in a lot of cases they alluded to a number of abilities being changed to "be more in line with..." or "in accordance with..." different ability categories "like damage over time abilities" and so on. Am I the only one who sees that as a bit of a negative?

In the never ending need to appease PvPers complaining that "this week X build is OP, plz nerf!!!! Nao!!!" ZOS has no choice at all but to make each and every skill uniform.

In the end the ONLY thing that will be different is the visual effect and the animation (assuming the Animation Cancelling exploiters don't complain about that too).

All The Best

therift

There is little cause for concern at this point.

The references to "standardization" derive from the letter published by Brian Wheeler back in April.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/466792/update-22-combat-direction/p1


The intent is not to "standardize" abilities, passives, effects, gear sets, etc but to develop and apply a common set of underlying rules for the game. Doing so will make it much easier to improve class identities in the future, avoid unintended and disasterously OP combinations, improve performance, and so on.

Of course there is a danger of standard rule sets creating homogenization. But long before that could happen, the horrendous morass of unique calculations, inconsistent applications, and other things that make code writing a headache.

DreadDaedroth

This standardisation it's good only for make things more and more bland.
One big homologation just to spare time in future.

Eraldus

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Are you the only one?

No. There are several of you thinking the same idiotic ideas about a video game.

Cute. Now how about trying to counter what the OP said in the first place? Or are you too idiotic to do it?

MehrunesFlagon

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Looking through the patch notes, I noticed that in a lot of cases they alluded to a number of abilities being changed to "be more in line with..." or "in accordance with..." different ability categories "like damage over time abilities" and so on. Am I the only one who sees that as a bit of a negative?

For people who aren't understanding what I'm getting at, I'm talking about homogenization. Streamlining. Dumbing down. The type of balancing that devs do to ensure build variety but ultimately just ends up destroying it because suddenly everything acts the same because they want all abilities to be interchangeable so dps parses all look the same.

I really don't like where this is heading. Based on my experience with other games, this type design only leads to an insipid "do you want green fire or red fire" scenario. I think that it is ok for certain abilities to outperform others from a numerical perspective as long as they hold other strengths and weaknesses. That's what makes build variety more unique and interesting.

Bloody hell no.

hakan

Yeah, this is the only "doomsayer post" (kinda) that i agree with. Making every skill or set give the same effect seems boring and may lower the number of viable options. Not every class needs to operate the same way.

Eraldus

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

This standardisation it's good only for make things more and more bland.
One big homologation just to spare time in future.

Most people who are in favour of "standardization" are casuals who are angry because they ran into people that managed to build an unique and powerful character, so instead of making an effort to try to make a better character themselves, they prefer to complain that the game is "inbalanced" and wants the devs to gut down the game, so that it punishes anyone that tries to stray off the path set by the game, however by doing crap like this, they kill a lot of build diversity, because everyone will just jump on the standardization train, and both PVP and PVE will be filled with a bunch of boring clones of each other... How is this fun? Especially for a game series that's known for letting you play as you see fit?

In the end, all these attempts at trying to standardize the game will only make it more boring, while at the same time, they throw diversity under the bus, and this game will be just like every boring MMO out there.

Runefang

PvE builds are homogenised anyway so it’s not really getting worse.

Jaimeh

SirAndy wrote: »

Homogenization in the name of build diversity, the literal definition of an oxymoron ...

It's more in the name of balance, but regardless, it's a direction I'm not really liking; for some time now classes have started to lose their unique feel and identity, these changes are one more step towards having a combat system wherein every skill is essentially the same but with slightly different animations and sounds.

srfrogg23

Runefang wrote: »

PvE builds are homogenised anyway so it’s not really getting worse.

There is a perception that they are homogenized because YouTubers put out build guides and people follow them like the crowd in
Monty Python and the Life of Brian. The reality is that there has been a whole lot of build variety. It just doesn't get publicized a lot because most of those builds are not "META" and don't do "top dps". They can, however, be more fun to play due to built in nuances.

People may want to believe that it's already homogenized, but I can assure that is purely by choice. I'm worried that soon we won't have a choice at all.

Raisin

Yes. When it comes down to it, this is really the only part of this I consider a true issue.

ZOS idea of balancing is to flatten everything and make it all the same. Good game design would be to give all classes unique features that have their own benefits. Have each of them bring something valuable to the table. Make them SO different that they balance each other. That's what BALANCE means -- you don't get a pat on the shoulder for 'balancing' two sheets of paper on an even surface...
But in the end, we have to blame the community as much as ZOS. "X class has this type of thing so everybody should have it!!!" has been cried for years now. It's a shame, and people's whining will ruin many a thing for us IMO. I can handle change, I think most of us can... but taking the joy out of things, standardizing and and dumbing down; that is one tough and bland pill to swallow.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

blnchk

Someone (a Class Rep?) once suggested that implementing a common ruleset for skills would then, in a second step, allow for "rule breakers" -- skills that don't adhere to the previously applied standard -- to be defined more clearly and with explicit intention. So the current patch is not necessarily a step toward homogenisation. Right now, though, it's all mostly wait and see until they're done with their audit.

eso_lags

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Looking through the patch notes, I noticed that in a lot of cases they alluded to a number of abilities being changed to "be more in line with..." or "in accordance with..." different ability categories "like damage over time abilities" and so on. Am I the only one who sees that as a bit of a negative?

For people who aren't understanding what I'm getting at, I'm talking about homogenization. Streamlining. Dumbing down. The type of balancing that devs do to ensure build variety but ultimately just ends up destroying it because suddenly everything acts the same because they want all abilities to be interchangeable so dps parses all look the same.

I really don't like where this is heading. Based on my experience with other games, this type design only leads to an insipid "do you want green fire or red fire" scenario. I think that it is ok for certain abilities to outperform others from a numerical perspective as long as they hold other strengths and weaknesses. That's what makes build variety more unique and interesting.

No you arent. Ive been saying this over and over. Not all abilities are equal, even if they are in the same category. Not all play styles and classes are equal. Blanket changes and nerfs is not good for this game at all and they arent going to get balance from this. Even if they did, with the direction it seems they want to go, every class would have to have access to every buff/debuff and skills. It would be awful. But what they are doing now is just ruining certain things for the sake of making them fall in line with their new rules.