small scale pvp and vigor

eso_lags

First of all I dont see this as the eso apocalypse. I see some good changes, some bad changes, and some very confusing changes. So anyway.

How is it you manage to hurt small scale players more and more every update? Literally every single update you only make life harder. How many stamina heals are in game. How many stamina AOE heals? Im 99% sure that we have 2 real ones right now. One is vigor and the other is spores. Spores is a warden skill so everyone else is left with vigor.

Great buff to resolving, cool. But in the process you're going to make people who small scale/solo have to reset skills every time they arent solo. As a mag user you have a whole resto skill like to heal your partner, or partners, in small scale pvp. As a mag user you have skills on every class to do this, refreshing path, templar heals especially bol/honor, multiple warden skills, the sorc twilight, multiple necro skills, and dk doesn't really have one as far as i know.

The point is, if you are a duo or small scale pvp group you will always have so many more options for healing your allies if you are a mag user. Its part of your build. You dont really have to change anything most of the time. But as a stam user all you can do is stack vigors, which is strong for sure, but really your only option unless you have a stamden. This change is going to leave us one option, witch echoing vigor. How is this right?

All Im suggesting is this, can we please change resolving vigor to heal one ally. This will make all the difference in the world for small scale players. We have no other options except to go and reset skills to get echoing vigor every time we want to duo, trio, or whatever. Because echoing is not going to work for solo players, and sometimes when you are fighting outnumbered you need to throw someone a vigor. At least in a small scale group of stam users, lets say duo stam sorcs or duo stamplars or whatever. So if we can at least heal one ally then we have the option to not have to reset skill morphs every time we group up.

Small scale is the minority but this change is a small thing that would make a huge difference for us. One ally.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RichLambert

akray21

I agree with you. Buy unfortunately small scale PvP is of the least important when ZOS is balancing the game. The game is primarily PvE and large scale PvP oriented.

pieratsos

akray21 wrote: »

I agree with you. Buy unfortunately small scale PvP is of the least important when ZOS is balancing the game. The game is primarily PvE and large scale PvP oriented.

How is buffing vigor for solo and nerfing it for group a large scale PVP oriented change?

eso_lags

akray21 wrote: »

I agree with you. Buy unfortunately small scale PvP is of the least important when ZOS is balancing the game. The game is primarily PvE and large scale PvP oriented.

Yes. This has been shown time and time again when small scale is hurt the most because of other changes, and terrible game performance . Small scale used to be bigger, people wanted to do it, aspired to do it. But now its dying.

Either way, thats why im saying they should change it to heal one player. That is not a huge change, will not hurt their balance. In fact, id say its worse to give stamina players 1 single aoe heal. 2 if you count spores. Where is the balance in that? Letting resolving heal one other player is a huge thing for certain players, and at the same time it will have no negative effect on things.

eso_lags

pieratsos wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I agree with you. Buy unfortunately small scale PvP is of the least important when ZOS is balancing the game. The game is primarily PvE and large scale PvP oriented.

How is buffing vigor for solo and nerfing it for group a large scale PVP oriented change?

I think they are just trying to balance it and make it fall in line with their other healing abilites. Blanket nerfs are so bad for this game. And treating one ability like its another ability, when they have nothing similar except that they are in the same category, is also bad for the game.

Large scale pvp players are not relying on vigor for heals. Im sure it adds on to it, but usually groups of 8+ have a healer. This change will mainly hurt small scale players. Its a good change for solo, sure, but if you ever want to play duo or more its going to be a pain of leaving pvp and changing skills. Because echoing will not work for solo, and probably would be more of detriment even if you are duo or trio tbh.

Sanctum74

Vigor, shuffle, and onslaught, small scalers just got some really nice buffs. Sounds like a minor inconvenience considering the benefits.

Animal_Mother

Circle of Protection -> Ring of Preservation is now an AOE HoT. And it's ticking every 1/2 second and still offering minor protection and minor endurance ( at least the notes didn't state the morph lost those).

MentalxHammer

I think healing one target would be a good change. This would keep it from being overpowered in large groups but still offer utility to small scalers.

Tessitura

If you are two people running around in cyrodiil together, both on stam builds, then this should be good for you. Now you can get better healing when you two are separated, instead of just getting crushed cause you can no longer stack vigor. Personally I don't see how this will hurt you in small scale outside of BG ball grouping. Which, this probably wont even put much of damper on anyway. Make a concerted effort to test it first. More often then not, whats looks bad on paper works fine in practice.

pieratsos

eso_lags wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I agree with you. Buy unfortunately small scale PvP is of the least important when ZOS is balancing the game. The game is primarily PvE and large scale PvP oriented.

How is buffing vigor for solo and nerfing it for group a large scale PVP oriented change?

I think they are just trying to balance it and make it fall in line with their other healing abilites. Blanket nerfs are so bad for this game. And treating one ability like its another ability, when they have nothing similar except that they are in the same category, is also bad for the game.

Large scale pvp players are not relying on vigor for heals. Im sure it adds on to it, but usually groups of 8+ have a healer. This change will mainly hurt small scale players. Its a good change for solo, sure, but if you ever want to play duo or more its going to be a pain of leaving pvp and changing skills. Because echoing will not work for solo, and probably would be more of detriment even if you are duo or trio tbh.

Look i get it and i totally agree with you that small scale/solo is dying every patch and that the game is PVP large scale oriented, i will even add that the game PVP brainless large scale oriented but if we are talking about this patch specifically, is probably the only patch ever that is actually a buff to solo/small scale and nerf to dumb large scale groups.

I get it that stacking vigors is important for small scale when you are fighting 15 people at the same time in this dumb skilless and brainless PVP, but imo using skill, terrain and reacting to opponents should be incentivised more than stacking AOE heals to outheal everything. Stacking vigors is like a mini ball group. You want to do that, use echoing vigor or slot the much more powerful solo vigor and help each other in a different way.

likecats

For BGs, this is a great change.

Vigor, and regeneration were two of the primary offenders of overhealing. Both of these changes also reduce troll king procs across a team, which was another big offender of overhealing.

Small scale group PVP should be balanced around high MMR BGs.

eso_lags

MentalxHammer wrote: »

I think healing one target would be a good change. This would keep it from being overpowered in large groups but still offer utility to small scalers.

Exactly. It gives them what they want without the expense of ruining the skill.

Tessitura wrote: »

If you are two people running around in cyrodiil together, both on stam builds, then this should be good for you. Now you can get better healing when you two are separated, instead of just getting crushed cause you can no longer stack vigor. Personally I don't see how this will hurt you in small scale outside of BG ball grouping. Which, this probably wont even put much of damper on anyway. Make a concerted effort to test it first. More often then not, whats looks bad on paper works fine in practice.

Some people are missing the other point. Its the only stamina aoe heal the game. We have no options while magic users have so many options. How does it make sense to change our options from two to one? Or three to two if you are counting class heals.

Ya you are right, usually things should be tested first but there is going to be no way to test this on the PTS. Vigor will be better, 85% better but its not always going to be enough when fighting outnumbered and there are no other options except.

You say this should be good for us, now we can heal ourselves a bit more.. If they made every heal in the game like this people would be losing their minds. If you had to choose between a sub par heal for yourself and allies, or a strong heal for only yourself, people would not be happy. But groups will always have sorc pets, or breath of life, or resto skills, multiple hots, etc.. Why is it so much to ask that small scale stamina players retain the ability to have a strong healing skill, the only strong healing skill we have on many classes, and also be able to heal an ally too? Echoing is not an option.

It really just comes down always hitting small scale players for no reason. Like all of a sudden vigor needs to be this way, its essential for balance. I dont think so..

This is an option to accomplish what zos is trying to do and not make things harder for us. But im not here to argue about it, im just here to bring it up and hope someone at zos notices it and realizes both things can be done. There is no downside to letting you heal one other person, even if it had to be at half the amount (which would be bad, but better than nothing).

Im not even sure why this is a question considering the heals stam users have access too. But they never balance things, its the same thing with silence. Completely one sided, and I dont even play magic, not for a long time. They need to broaden their perspective when it comes to balance and realize that blanket nerfs are not good. All skills and classes, builds and play styles, are not equal. Blanket changes will never achieve balance for everyone, but compromises like what im proposing is a start..

Animal_Mother

eso_lags wrote: »

Some people are missing the other point. Its the only stamina aoe heal the game. We have no options while magic users have so many options. How does it make sense to change our options from two to one? Or three to two if you are counting class heals.

But it isn't the only stamina AOE heal... see above... Ring of Preservation is a stamina AOE HoT

eso_lags

pieratsos wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I agree with you. Buy unfortunately small scale PvP is of the least important when ZOS is balancing the game. The game is primarily PvE and large scale PvP oriented.

How is buffing vigor for solo and nerfing it for group a large scale PVP oriented change?

I think they are just trying to balance it and make it fall in line with their other healing abilites. Blanket nerfs are so bad for this game. And treating one ability like its another ability, when they have nothing similar except that they are in the same category, is also bad for the game.

Large scale pvp players are not relying on vigor for heals. Im sure it adds on to it, but usually groups of 8+ have a healer. This change will mainly hurt small scale players. Its a good change for solo, sure, but if you ever want to play duo or more its going to be a pain of leaving pvp and changing skills. Because echoing will not work for solo, and probably would be more of detriment even if you are duo or trio tbh.

Look i get it and i totally agree with you that small scale/solo is dying every patch and that the game is PVP large scale oriented, i will even add that the game PVP brainless large scale oriented but if we are talking about this patch specifically, is probably the only patch ever that is actually a buff to solo/small scale and nerf to dumb large scale groups.

I get it that stacking vigors is important for small scale when you are fighting 15 people at the same time in this dumb skilless and brainless PVP, but imo using skill, terrain and reacting to opponents should be incentivised more than stacking AOE heals to outheal everything. Stacking vigors is like a mini ball group. You want to do that, use echoing vigor or slot the much more powerful solo vigor and help each other in a different way.

Im sure it will hurt large scale players as well. But me and a friend are not going to be out healing the damage from a group of players. Thats not how it works. Solo/small scale is a strategic play style.. And when you are duo you are using communication, terrain, combos, and experience to try to kill a group of players that are trying to kill you. Usually if someone needs a vigor its because they are getting targeted by the group, and giving them a vigor is a way to help.

If i was on a pet sorc, instead of a stam sorc, It would be a pet heal. If i was a magplar it would be a BOL. But as a stam sorc, or most of the other stam specs, what we use is vigor. And if I want that ability I would have to leave pvp and respec my skills for echoing, because it will not work solo. Who would expect someone to do that?? And im pretty sure echoing would actually be worse for small scale anyway, because your own heals would suck. BECAUSE WE HAVE SO FEW OPTIONS!

eso_lags

Animal_Mother wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Some people are missing the other point. Its the only stamina aoe heal the game. We have no options while magic users have so many options. How does it make sense to change our options from two to one? Or three to two if you are counting class heals.

But it isn't the only stamina AOE heal... see above... Ring of Preservation is a stamina AOE HoT

So I missed that in the patch notes. Ill have to see what its going to heal for, but even if they added a few more stamina heals, and they aren't going to, it still wont even be close to equal.

And unless it heals for a damn good amount, and im guessing it wont, it wont be worth running for as much as it costs. They should have just reworked the skill into a stamina breath of life/honor, or spores, or matriarch heal.. That would have been interesting... But thanks for telling me, ill definitely check it out on the PTS and give it a shot if it looks good.

likecats

eso_lags wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

I think healing one target would be a good change. This would keep it from being overpowered in large groups but still offer utility to small scalers.

Exactly. It gives them what they want without the expense of ruining the skill.

Tessitura wrote: »

If you are two people running around in cyrodiil together, both on stam builds, then this should be good for you. Now you can get better healing when you two are separated, instead of just getting crushed cause you can no longer stack vigor. Personally I don't see how this will hurt you in small scale outside of BG ball grouping. Which, this probably wont even put much of damper on anyway. Make a concerted effort to test it first. More often then not, whats looks bad on paper works fine in practice.

Some people are missing the other point. Its the only stamina aoe heal the game. We have no options while magic users have so many options. How does it make sense to change our options from two to one? Or three to two if you are counting class heals.

Ya you are right, usually things should be tested first but there is going to be no way to test this on the PTS. Vigor will be better, 85% better but its not always going to be enough when fighting outnumbered and there are no other options except.

You say this should be good for us, now we can heal ourselves a bit more.. If they made every heal in the game like this people would be losing their minds. If you had to choose between a sub par heal for yourself and allies, or a strong heal for only yourself, people would not be happy. But groups will always have sorc pets, or breath of life, or resto skills, multiple hots, etc.. Why is it so much to ask that small scale stamina players retain the ability to have a strong healing skill, the only strong healing skill we have on many classes, and also be able to heal an ally too? Echoing is not an option.

It really just comes down always hitting small scale players for no reason. Like all of a sudden vigor needs to be this way, its essential for balance. I dont think so..

This is an option to accomplish what zos is trying to do and not make things harder for us. But im not here to argue about it, im just here to bring it up and hope someone at zos notices it and realizes both things can be done. There is no downside to letting you heal one other person, even if it had to be at half the amount (which would be bad, but better than nothing).

Im not even sure why this is a question considering the heals stam users have access too. But they never balance things, its the same thing with silence. Completely one sided, and I dont even play magic, not for a long time. They need to broaden their perspective when it comes to balance and realize that blanket nerfs are not good. All skills and classes, builds and play styles, are not equal. Blanket changes will never achieve balance for everyone, but compromises like what im proposing is a start..

I'm not aware of any magicka (that's available to all classes) skill that is a strong healing skill AND heals an ally. Healing ward EITHER heals you or your ally.

If your gripe is that you have to change morphs for an AOE heal vs a good heal, then I can sympathize. This problem can be solved in other ways that does not include buffing vigor. Particularly, they should introduce a new stam skill that is an AOE heal. The fighters guild ability got buffed and is now an AOE heal, but I have not tested it yet. But I think that should be the new stam AOE heal, if it is still underpowered I would want it to get buffed.
Or alternatively, vigor gets the healing ward treatment where either you get it or your ally.

If you simply want an overpowered vigor, then no sympathies from me.

pieratsos

eso_lags wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I agree with you. Buy unfortunately small scale PvP is of the least important when ZOS is balancing the game. The game is primarily PvE and large scale PvP oriented.

How is buffing vigor for solo and nerfing it for group a large scale PVP oriented change?

I think they are just trying to balance it and make it fall in line with their other healing abilites. Blanket nerfs are so bad for this game. And treating one ability like its another ability, when they have nothing similar except that they are in the same category, is also bad for the game.

Large scale pvp players are not relying on vigor for heals. Im sure it adds on to it, but usually groups of 8+ have a healer. This change will mainly hurt small scale players. Its a good change for solo, sure, but if you ever want to play duo or more its going to be a pain of leaving pvp and changing skills. Because echoing will not work for solo, and probably would be more of detriment even if you are duo or trio tbh.

Look i get it and i totally agree with you that small scale/solo is dying every patch and that the game is PVP large scale oriented, i will even add that the game PVP brainless large scale oriented but if we are talking about this patch specifically, is probably the only patch ever that is actually a buff to solo/small scale and nerf to dumb large scale groups.

I get it that stacking vigors is important for small scale when you are fighting 15 people at the same time in this dumb skilless and brainless PVP, but imo using skill, terrain and reacting to opponents should be incentivised more than stacking AOE heals to outheal everything. Stacking vigors is like a mini ball group. You want to do that, use echoing vigor or slot the much more powerful solo vigor and help each other in a different way.

Im sure it will hurt large scale players as well. But me and a friend are not going to be out healing the damage from a group of players. Thats not how it works. Solo/small scale is a strategic play style.. And when you are duo you are using communication, terrain, combos, and experience to try to kill a group of players that are trying to kill you. Usually if someone needs a vigor its because they are getting targeted by the group, and giving them a vigor is a way to help.

If i was on a pet sorc, instead of a stam sorc, It would be a pet heal. If i was a magplar it would be a BOL. But as a stam sorc, or most of the other stam specs, what we use is vigor. And if I want that ability I would have to leave pvp and respec my skills for echoing, because it will not work solo. Who would expect someone to do that?? And im pretty sure echoing would actually be worse for small scale anyway, because your own heals would suck. BECAUSE WE HAVE SO FEW OPTIONS!

If we are talking about duo then the changes to vigor are obviously a buff. Slotting solo vigor is like getting the equivalent of almost two old vigors with a much lower cost and not having the requirment of being stacked on top of ur buddy. If your buddy needs healing he can just cast his own vigor and its going to be almost as powerful as both of ur vigors now. How is this a nerf ? Its only a nerf when more and more vigors are stacked to the point of emulating a mini ball group. Which again, imo is what we should be disincentivizing.

KingExecration

I know that’s bogus but they gutted healing springs for any pvp healing group. I’m re rolling already because that is such a ridiculous change for group healing in general. The vigor stacking removed is such a hard hit for stam along side dawn breaker not being able to be canceled. It’s so much to take in.

eso_lags

likecats wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

I think healing one target would be a good change. This would keep it from being overpowered in large groups but still offer utility to small scalers.

Exactly. It gives them what they want without the expense of ruining the skill.

Tessitura wrote: »

If you are two people running around in cyrodiil together, both on stam builds, then this should be good for you. Now you can get better healing when you two are separated, instead of just getting crushed cause you can no longer stack vigor. Personally I don't see how this will hurt you in small scale outside of BG ball grouping. Which, this probably wont even put much of damper on anyway. Make a concerted effort to test it first. More often then not, whats looks bad on paper works fine in practice.

Some people are missing the other point. Its the only stamina aoe heal the game. We have no options while magic users have so many options. How does it make sense to change our options from two to one? Or three to two if you are counting class heals.

Ya you are right, usually things should be tested first but there is going to be no way to test this on the PTS. Vigor will be better, 85% better but its not always going to be enough when fighting outnumbered and there are no other options except.

You say this should be good for us, now we can heal ourselves a bit more.. If they made every heal in the game like this people would be losing their minds. If you had to choose between a sub par heal for yourself and allies, or a strong heal for only yourself, people would not be happy. But groups will always have sorc pets, or breath of life, or resto skills, multiple hots, etc.. Why is it so much to ask that small scale stamina players retain the ability to have a strong healing skill, the only strong healing skill we have on many classes, and also be able to heal an ally too? Echoing is not an option.

It really just comes down always hitting small scale players for no reason. Like all of a sudden vigor needs to be this way, its essential for balance. I dont think so..

This is an option to accomplish what zos is trying to do and not make things harder for us. But im not here to argue about it, im just here to bring it up and hope someone at zos notices it and realizes both things can be done. There is no downside to letting you heal one other person, even if it had to be at half the amount (which would be bad, but better than nothing).

Im not even sure why this is a question considering the heals stam users have access too. But they never balance things, its the same thing with silence. Completely one sided, and I dont even play magic, not for a long time. They need to broaden their perspective when it comes to balance and realize that blanket nerfs are not good. All skills and classes, builds and play styles, are not equal. Blanket changes will never achieve balance for everyone, but compromises like what im proposing is a start..

I'm not aware of any magicka (that's available to all classes) skill that is a strong healing skill AND heals an ally. Healing ward EITHER heals you or your ally.

If your gripe is that you have to change morphs for an AOE heal vs a good heal, then I can sympathize. This problem can be solved in other ways that does not include buffing vigor. Particularly, they should introduce a new stam skill that is an AOE heal. The fighters guild ability got buffed and is now an AOE heal, but I have not tested it yet. But I think that should be the new stam AOE heal, if it is still underpowered I would want it to get buffed.
Or alternatively, vigor gets the healing ward treatment where either you get it or your ally.

If you simply want an overpowered vigor, then no sympathies from me.

This isnt buffing vigor, this is simply not nerfing it. Out of the years ive been on this forum i have never seen anyone complain about vigor. Im sure people have done it, im sure they've done it multiple times, but ive never seen it. Its never been a big issue. Now all of a sudden this is how it should be? because this is the new proposed change? I disagree. And an overpowered vigor? By what, healing you and one ally? Why do people always go to the extreme with things?

What im saying is, and this is my main point in all of this, it should heal you and one ally. Doesnt have to be for full amount that its going to heal for after this buff, but it should retain some part of what it has now without you having to respect to the other morph which would be more of a detriment. Id even be fine with the "healing ward treatment" but i dont think it should be the first choice.

And I did confuse a couple things in this thread when it comes to HoTs vs burst heals, but its besides the point. No, I dont think there is a resto skill that give the heal that vigor does. What you fail to realize is that many of those resto skills are powerful HoTs, come with bonuses such as minor resolve, berserk and other things.. and there are multiple skills. On top of that tell me what stamina class has a reliable stamina heal? To heal themselves and an ally? Warden?

Nearly every magicka class has a reliable way to heal themselves and their allies. Breath of life, spores, twilight, refreshing path.. Even some smaller heals that certain classes have like cauterize. Stam sorc, stam dk, stam necro, stam nb, and even stamplar have no way to heal an ally. Vigor is the heal. Unless im forgetting one, which is possible.

Aedaryl

Can someone on PTS confirm or not if resolving vigor got buffed by 85% or nerfed by 15%?

eso_lags

pieratsos wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I agree with you. Buy unfortunately small scale PvP is of the least important when ZOS is balancing the game. The game is primarily PvE and large scale PvP oriented.

How is buffing vigor for solo and nerfing it for group a large scale PVP oriented change?

I think they are just trying to balance it and make it fall in line with their other healing abilites. Blanket nerfs are so bad for this game. And treating one ability like its another ability, when they have nothing similar except that they are in the same category, is also bad for the game.

Large scale pvp players are not relying on vigor for heals. Im sure it adds on to it, but usually groups of 8+ have a healer. This change will mainly hurt small scale players. Its a good change for solo, sure, but if you ever want to play duo or more its going to be a pain of leaving pvp and changing skills. Because echoing will not work for solo, and probably would be more of detriment even if you are duo or trio tbh.

Look i get it and i totally agree with you that small scale/solo is dying every patch and that the game is PVP large scale oriented, i will even add that the game PVP brainless large scale oriented but if we are talking about this patch specifically, is probably the only patch ever that is actually a buff to solo/small scale and nerf to dumb large scale groups.

I get it that stacking vigors is important for small scale when you are fighting 15 people at the same time in this dumb skilless and brainless PVP, but imo using skill, terrain and reacting to opponents should be incentivised more than stacking AOE heals to outheal everything. Stacking vigors is like a mini ball group. You want to do that, use echoing vigor or slot the much more powerful solo vigor and help each other in a different way.

Im sure it will hurt large scale players as well. But me and a friend are not going to be out healing the damage from a group of players. Thats not how it works. Solo/small scale is a strategic play style.. And when you are duo you are using communication, terrain, combos, and experience to try to kill a group of players that are trying to kill you. Usually if someone needs a vigor its because they are getting targeted by the group, and giving them a vigor is a way to help.

If i was on a pet sorc, instead of a stam sorc, It would be a pet heal. If i was a magplar it would be a BOL. But as a stam sorc, or most of the other stam specs, what we use is vigor. And if I want that ability I would have to leave pvp and respec my skills for echoing, because it will not work solo. Who would expect someone to do that?? And im pretty sure echoing would actually be worse for small scale anyway, because your own heals would suck. BECAUSE WE HAVE SO FEW OPTIONS!

If we are talking about duo then the changes to vigor are obviously a buff. Slotting solo vigor is like getting the equivalent of almost two old vigors with a much lower cost and not having the requirment of being stacked on top of ur buddy. If your buddy needs healing he can just cast his own vigor and its going to be almost as powerful as both of ur vigors now. How is this a nerf ? Its only a nerf when more and more vigors are stacked to the point of emulating a mini ball group. Which again, imo is what we should be disincentivizing.

The skill is getting an over all buff in healing, for sure. But that isnt the point. The problem is when you are actually playing and need a heal, and you are unable to heal yourself, and your partner gives you one. Honestly I wish players could only heal themselves in pvp, only pvp. Thats my position, but thats not how it is and that will never ever happen. So since this is the case stam users should have a reliable way to do that, for at least one ally, without running a worse version of the skill.

Its not like I can hop on my stam sorc, duo with someone, and toss them some pet heals if they get into a bad situation. Or breath them on my stamplar. Or whatever. Overall it will be a better vigor, but in the case of needing to heal an ally its not going to do anything so its not an obvious buff. It depends on the situation. Most of the time sure, but why shouldnt we have that option anymore? Even if its just a small part of it. Again, there are no other reliable options. Im just saying this is something they should be thinking about. Its not as simple as, throw it into our standard HoT category and leave it at that. Again, not everything is equal or that simple in this game.

And again, it still accomplishes what you are saying, not stacking a bunch of vigors, and still giving you the option to heal an ally in trouble. Another thing is that ball groups are always going to have healers. Most of the ones I see arent stacking vigors, they have healers that make them unkillable unless you go at them with more numbers or on equal grounds.

likecats

eso_lags wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

I think healing one target would be a good change. This would keep it from being overpowered in large groups but still offer utility to small scalers.

Exactly. It gives them what they want without the expense of ruining the skill.

Tessitura wrote: »

If you are two people running around in cyrodiil together, both on stam builds, then this should be good for you. Now you can get better healing when you two are separated, instead of just getting crushed cause you can no longer stack vigor. Personally I don't see how this will hurt you in small scale outside of BG ball grouping. Which, this probably wont even put much of damper on anyway. Make a concerted effort to test it first. More often then not, whats looks bad on paper works fine in practice.

Some people are missing the other point. Its the only stamina aoe heal the game. We have no options while magic users have so many options. How does it make sense to change our options from two to one? Or three to two if you are counting class heals.

Ya you are right, usually things should be tested first but there is going to be no way to test this on the PTS. Vigor will be better, 85% better but its not always going to be enough when fighting outnumbered and there are no other options except.

You say this should be good for us, now we can heal ourselves a bit more.. If they made every heal in the game like this people would be losing their minds. If you had to choose between a sub par heal for yourself and allies, or a strong heal for only yourself, people would not be happy. But groups will always have sorc pets, or breath of life, or resto skills, multiple hots, etc.. Why is it so much to ask that small scale stamina players retain the ability to have a strong healing skill, the only strong healing skill we have on many classes, and also be able to heal an ally too? Echoing is not an option.

It really just comes down always hitting small scale players for no reason. Like all of a sudden vigor needs to be this way, its essential for balance. I dont think so..

This is an option to accomplish what zos is trying to do and not make things harder for us. But im not here to argue about it, im just here to bring it up and hope someone at zos notices it and realizes both things can be done. There is no downside to letting you heal one other person, even if it had to be at half the amount (which would be bad, but better than nothing).

Im not even sure why this is a question considering the heals stam users have access too. But they never balance things, its the same thing with silence. Completely one sided, and I dont even play magic, not for a long time. They need to broaden their perspective when it comes to balance and realize that blanket nerfs are not good. All skills and classes, builds and play styles, are not equal. Blanket changes will never achieve balance for everyone, but compromises like what im proposing is a start..

I'm not aware of any magicka (that's available to all classes) skill that is a strong healing skill AND heals an ally. Healing ward EITHER heals you or your ally.

If your gripe is that you have to change morphs for an AOE heal vs a good heal, then I can sympathize. This problem can be solved in other ways that does not include buffing vigor. Particularly, they should introduce a new stam skill that is an AOE heal. The fighters guild ability got buffed and is now an AOE heal, but I have not tested it yet. But I think that should be the new stam AOE heal, if it is still underpowered I would want it to get buffed.
Or alternatively, vigor gets the healing ward treatment where either you get it or your ally.

If you simply want an overpowered vigor, then no sympathies from me.

This isnt buffing vigor, this is simply not nerfing it. Out of the years ive been on this forum i have never seen anyone complain about vigor. Im sure people have done it, im sure they've done it multiple times, but ive never seen it. Its never been a big issue. Now all of a sudden this is how it should be? because this is the new proposed change? I disagree. And an overpowered vigor? By what, healing you and one ally? Why do people always go to the extreme with things?

What im saying is, and this is my main point in all of this, it should heal you and one ally. Doesnt have to be for full amount that its going to heal for after this buff, but it should retain some part of what it has now without you having to respect to the other morph which would be more of a detriment. Id even be fine with the "healing ward treatment" but i dont think it should be the first choice.

And I did confuse a couple things in this thread when it comes to HoTs vs burst heals, but its besides the point. No, I dont think there is a resto skill that give the heal that vigor does. What you fail to realize is that many of those resto skills are powerful HoTs, come with bonuses such as, and there are multiple skills. On top of that tell me what stamina class has a reliable stamina heal? To heal themselves and an ally? Warden?

Nearly every magicka class has a reliable way to heal themselves and their allies. Breath of life, spores, twilight, refreshing path.. Even some smaller heals that certain classes have like cauterize. Stam sorc, stam dk, stam necro, stam nb, and even stamplar have no way to heal an ally. Vigor is the heal. Unless im forgetting one, which is possible.

This is buffing vigor. Vigor got buffed by 85% this patch. If you do not compensate for that in some way, it it is an absolute buff. For all intents and purposes, 85% buff is equivalent to one ally giving you the AOE vigor heal the same as you suggested. I am not opposed to the self-buff aspect of vigor as it is vital for stam builds. But the group heal is a major contributor to overhealing in PVP.

People haven't been complaining about Vigor, but I have seen many people complain about overhealing in PVP. These complains mostly appear in discussions about BGs, discussions about defile, discussions about unkillable builds.

Unless you are in an organized group that stacks ultimates, its almost impossible to kill a player balled in a group because of all the off-heals they get from the remaining 3 players in his group. The players in this ball group do not even need to be super organized, as its so easy to grant off-heals to allies.

Vigor is one of the primary offenders when it comes to overhealing in PVP. I am also happy about the regeneration change, as it was another major offender in overhealing. The change to vigor and regeneration will also mean less troll kings proccing, which is another offender in overhealing. There are a few other abilities that should be addressed as well.

Like I said, I am not against stamina having a reliable AOE heal and a reliable self-heal. Just that both of them should not be shoved in one ability. I am all for buffing the new AOE heal in the fighters guild so that it is competitive enough with the resto AOE heals.

eso_lags

likecats wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

I think healing one target would be a good change. This would keep it from being overpowered in large groups but still offer utility to small scalers.

Exactly. It gives them what they want without the expense of ruining the skill.

Tessitura wrote: »

If you are two people running around in cyrodiil together, both on stam builds, then this should be good for you. Now you can get better healing when you two are separated, instead of just getting crushed cause you can no longer stack vigor. Personally I don't see how this will hurt you in small scale outside of BG ball grouping. Which, this probably wont even put much of damper on anyway. Make a concerted effort to test it first. More often then not, whats looks bad on paper works fine in practice.

Some people are missing the other point. Its the only stamina aoe heal the game. We have no options while magic users have so many options. How does it make sense to change our options from two to one? Or three to two if you are counting class heals.

Ya you are right, usually things should be tested first but there is going to be no way to test this on the PTS. Vigor will be better, 85% better but its not always going to be enough when fighting outnumbered and there are no other options except.

You say this should be good for us, now we can heal ourselves a bit more.. If they made every heal in the game like this people would be losing their minds. If you had to choose between a sub par heal for yourself and allies, or a strong heal for only yourself, people would not be happy. But groups will always have sorc pets, or breath of life, or resto skills, multiple hots, etc.. Why is it so much to ask that small scale stamina players retain the ability to have a strong healing skill, the only strong healing skill we have on many classes, and also be able to heal an ally too? Echoing is not an option.

It really just comes down always hitting small scale players for no reason. Like all of a sudden vigor needs to be this way, its essential for balance. I dont think so..

This is an option to accomplish what zos is trying to do and not make things harder for us. But im not here to argue about it, im just here to bring it up and hope someone at zos notices it and realizes both things can be done. There is no downside to letting you heal one other person, even if it had to be at half the amount (which would be bad, but better than nothing).

Im not even sure why this is a question considering the heals stam users have access too. But they never balance things, its the same thing with silence. Completely one sided, and I dont even play magic, not for a long time. They need to broaden their perspective when it comes to balance and realize that blanket nerfs are not good. All skills and classes, builds and play styles, are not equal. Blanket changes will never achieve balance for everyone, but compromises like what im proposing is a start..

I'm not aware of any magicka (that's available to all classes) skill that is a strong healing skill AND heals an ally. Healing ward EITHER heals you or your ally.

If your gripe is that you have to change morphs for an AOE heal vs a good heal, then I can sympathize. This problem can be solved in other ways that does not include buffing vigor. Particularly, they should introduce a new stam skill that is an AOE heal. The fighters guild ability got buffed and is now an AOE heal, but I have not tested it yet. But I think that should be the new stam AOE heal, if it is still underpowered I would want it to get buffed.
Or alternatively, vigor gets the healing ward treatment where either you get it or your ally.

If you simply want an overpowered vigor, then no sympathies from me.

This isnt buffing vigor, this is simply not nerfing it. Out of the years ive been on this forum i have never seen anyone complain about vigor. Im sure people have done it, im sure they've done it multiple times, but ive never seen it. Its never been a big issue. Now all of a sudden this is how it should be? because this is the new proposed change? I disagree. And an overpowered vigor? By what, healing you and one ally? Why do people always go to the extreme with things?

What im saying is, and this is my main point in all of this, it should heal you and one ally. Doesnt have to be for full amount that its going to heal for after this buff, but it should retain some part of what it has now without you having to respect to the other morph which would be more of a detriment. Id even be fine with the "healing ward treatment" but i dont think it should be the first choice.

And I did confuse a couple things in this thread when it comes to HoTs vs burst heals, but its besides the point. No, I dont think there is a resto skill that give the heal that vigor does. What you fail to realize is that many of those resto skills are powerful HoTs, come with bonuses such as, and there are multiple skills. On top of that tell me what stamina class has a reliable stamina heal? To heal themselves and an ally? Warden?

Nearly every magicka class has a reliable way to heal themselves and their allies. Breath of life, spores, twilight, refreshing path.. Even some smaller heals that certain classes have like cauterize. Stam sorc, stam dk, stam necro, stam nb, and even stamplar have no way to heal an ally. Vigor is the heal. Unless im forgetting one, which is possible.

This is buffing vigor. Vigor got buffed by 85% this patch. If you do not compensate for that in some way, it it is an absolute buff. For all intents and purposes, 85% buff is equivalent to one ally giving you the AOE vigor heal the same as you suggested. I am not opposed to the self-buff aspect of vigor as it is vital for stam builds. But the group heal is a major contributor to overhealing in PVP.

People haven't been complaining about Vigor, but I have seen many people complain about overhealing in PVP. These complains mostly appear in discussions about BGs, discussions about defile, discussions about unkillable builds.

Unless you are in an organized group that stacks ultimates, its almost impossible to kill a player balled in a group because of all the off-heals they get from the remaining 3 players in his group. The players in this ball group do not even need to be super organized, as its so easy to grant off-heals to allies.

Vigor is one of the primary offenders when it comes to overhealing in PVP. I am also happy about the regeneration change, as it was another major offender in overhealing. The change to vigor and regeneration will also mean less troll kings proccing, which is another offender in overhealing. There are a few other abilities that should be addressed as well.

Like I said, I am not against stamina having a reliable AOE heal and a reliable self-heal. Just that both of them should not be shoved in one ability. I am all for buffing the new AOE heal in the fighters guild so that it is competitive enough with the resto AOE heals.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. I pvp everyday. I fight groups like this everyday. I watch groups like this every day. I fight in groups like this sometimes. Vigor is not the problem and has never been, templars are the problem with over healing. Sets have also been a big problem with over healing. Damage dealing tanks as well. Not vigor lol. The devs need to actually be in pvp to understand how things work. I mean earthgore just got nerfed this update, If you want to talk about brainless overhealing..

Big groups and ball groups will still be an issue. Healing will still be an issue. All the things wrong will still be an issue, after vigor has been changed.

You dont change something in a negative way if it is lacking. Even if you are buffing it in another way. Stamina healing options, to heal allies, are lacking compared to magick. No one has given me an argument as to why magick has so many ways to heal allies than stam does. Why is that okay. If they want to change skills like this then either let it retain some of what it had, or add some more options. Or leave it alone.

Again no one asked for a buff or nerf to vigor. I guess to truly understand you have to play in the situation. Zos wont understand because I doubt any of them are out there duo or trio pvping. When you are 2 or 3 stam builds sometimes you need to toss a friend a vigor. And for many mag classes this isnt even a second thought. If you're friend is low, and you're on a pet sorc magplar etc, you are going to give them a heal. As stam players this option is now gone for us. All Im saying is they should at least leave the option to heal one person, somewhat.

Im not here to argue. I dont want to. Ive given my opinion, hopefully someone sees it and realizes its a mistake and is going to leave small scale stam players in a worse situation than we are now. Especially when fighting those mag builds that have the option to aid there friends build right into the skills they already use. Thats what we had, now we wont. We should have that option, even if its on a smaller scale.

But in the end they probably wont listen. Many of the changes zos make are obviously bad to the people who are impacted by those changes. Some people just cant see it. I said the dswing nerf, among many other things, was an awful idea, and it was. Now its getting buffed. So who knows what the future will bring.

eso_lags

Aedaryl wrote: »

Can someone on PTS confirm or not if resolving vigor got buffed by 85% or nerfed by 15%?

I mean its supposed to be buffed. I was on there, im gonna play around with it. My vigor tool tip was 15k and when I morphed it to resolving it went up to 16k. Thats all i really looked at so far though.

puupaa

Aedaryl wrote: »

Can someone on PTS confirm or not if resolving vigor got buffed by 85% or nerfed by 15%?

If I read the patch notes correctly Resolving got buffed by ~42% and lost the ability to heal others. On non-PTS, Resolving heals the caster for 30% more than Echoing if I remember right. So from 1.3x to 1.85x base skill tick per second.

Sanguinor2

I´ll just leave this here for People wondering if vigor got a hard buff or not.
Disclaimer: I got this from a discord so I cant say if its pre battle spirit or not (most likely pre battle spirit) and which sets were used.

pieratsos

eso_lags wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I agree with you. Buy unfortunately small scale PvP is of the least important when ZOS is balancing the game. The game is primarily PvE and large scale PvP oriented.

How is buffing vigor for solo and nerfing it for group a large scale PVP oriented change?

I think they are just trying to balance it and make it fall in line with their other healing abilites. Blanket nerfs are so bad for this game. And treating one ability like its another ability, when they have nothing similar except that they are in the same category, is also bad for the game.

Large scale pvp players are not relying on vigor for heals. Im sure it adds on to it, but usually groups of 8+ have a healer. This change will mainly hurt small scale players. Its a good change for solo, sure, but if you ever want to play duo or more its going to be a pain of leaving pvp and changing skills. Because echoing will not work for solo, and probably would be more of detriment even if you are duo or trio tbh.

Look i get it and i totally agree with you that small scale/solo is dying every patch and that the game is PVP large scale oriented, i will even add that the game PVP brainless large scale oriented but if we are talking about this patch specifically, is probably the only patch ever that is actually a buff to solo/small scale and nerf to dumb large scale groups.

I get it that stacking vigors is important for small scale when you are fighting 15 people at the same time in this dumb skilless and brainless PVP, but imo using skill, terrain and reacting to opponents should be incentivised more than stacking AOE heals to outheal everything. Stacking vigors is like a mini ball group. You want to do that, use echoing vigor or slot the much more powerful solo vigor and help each other in a different way.

Im sure it will hurt large scale players as well. But me and a friend are not going to be out healing the damage from a group of players. Thats not how it works. Solo/small scale is a strategic play style.. And when you are duo you are using communication, terrain, combos, and experience to try to kill a group of players that are trying to kill you. Usually if someone needs a vigor its because they are getting targeted by the group, and giving them a vigor is a way to help.

If i was on a pet sorc, instead of a stam sorc, It would be a pet heal. If i was a magplar it would be a BOL. But as a stam sorc, or most of the other stam specs, what we use is vigor. And if I want that ability I would have to leave pvp and respec my skills for echoing, because it will not work solo. Who would expect someone to do that?? And im pretty sure echoing would actually be worse for small scale anyway, because your own heals would suck. BECAUSE WE HAVE SO FEW OPTIONS!

If we are talking about duo then the changes to vigor are obviously a buff. Slotting solo vigor is like getting the equivalent of almost two old vigors with a much lower cost and not having the requirment of being stacked on top of ur buddy. If your buddy needs healing he can just cast his own vigor and its going to be almost as powerful as both of ur vigors now. How is this a nerf ? Its only a nerf when more and more vigors are stacked to the point of emulating a mini ball group. Which again, imo is what we should be disincentivizing.

The skill is getting an over all buff in healing, for sure. But that isnt the point. The problem is when you are actually playing and need a heal, and you are unable to heal yourself, and your partner gives you one. Honestly I wish players could only heal themselves in pvp, only pvp. Thats my position, but thats not how it is and that will never ever happen. So since this is the case stam users should have a reliable way to do that, for at least one ally, without running a worse version of the skill.

Its not like I can hop on my stam sorc, duo with someone, and toss them some pet heals if they get into a bad situation. Or breath them on my stamplar. Or whatever. Overall it will be a better vigor, but in the case of needing to heal an ally its not going to do anything so its not an obvious buff. It depends on the situation. Most of the time sure, but why shouldnt we have that option anymore? Even if its just a small part of it. Again, there are no other reliable options. Im just saying this is something they should be thinking about. Its not as simple as, throw it into our standard HoT category and leave it at that. Again, not everything is equal or that simple in this game.

And again, it still accomplishes what you are saying, not stacking a bunch of vigors, and still giving you the option to heal an ally in trouble. Another thing is that ball groups are always going to have healers. Most of the ones I see arent stacking vigors, they have healers that make them unkillable unless you go at them with more numbers or on equal grounds.

But you do have that option. You get to pick between a self heal and an AOE heal. Those are your options. I get that you want something in between to get the best of both worlds because in some specific scenario it will be the best but if we are going to create different scenarions and what abilities it would be good to have for those scenarios then the list of those abilities would be endless. Point is there are ways to help each other out. Whether that is echoing vigor or something else is entirely ur option.

New vigor plus healing an ally would be way too good and the cost or the heal potency would have to be nerfed to compensate. Not saying that i have a problem with that but someone else who is playing solo would much rather keep the solo version than a nerfed + 1 ally version. So as you see, its not about right or wrong. Its about having just two morphs and ZOS went with solo and AOE morphs. Nothing wrong with that.

eso_lags

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

I´ll just leave this here for People wondering if vigor got a hard buff or not.
Disclaimer: I got this from a discord so I cant say if its pre battle spirit or not (most likely pre battle spirit) and which sets were used.

lol great

cheemers

eso_lags wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Can someone on PTS confirm or not if resolving vigor got buffed by 85% or nerfed by 15%?

I mean its supposed to be buffed. I was on there, im gonna play around with it. My vigor tool tip was 15k and when I morphed it to resolving it went up to 16k. Thats all i really looked at so far though.

15k over 10 secs base morph, 16k over 5 secs resolving, right?

eso_lags

cheemers wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Can someone on PTS confirm or not if resolving vigor got buffed by 85% or nerfed by 15%?

I mean its supposed to be buffed. I was on there, im gonna play around with it. My vigor tool tip was 15k and when I morphed it to resolving it went up to 16k. Thats all i really looked at so far though.

15k over 10 secs base morph, 16k over 5 secs resolving, right?

Yes

pieratsos

eso_lags wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

I´ll just leave this here for People wondering if vigor got a hard buff or not.
Disclaimer: I got this from a discord so I cant say if its pre battle spirit or not (most likely pre battle spirit) and which sets were used.

lol great

Ok i change my mind. It already needs a nerf